IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2012-05-07

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th1ahi yvl, aelkner_, replaceafill, menesis.16:30
replaceafillgood morning/afternoon16:31
yvlgood morning guys16:32
th1aHow is Portugal, yvl?16:32
yvlgreat, thanks :)16:32
th1aGive us a report.16:32
yvlsure :)16:33
yvlwe just made a first pass through items Helder sent you before16:33
yvlso I'll be looking at the patches this evening16:33
yvland will help set up the "app" egg for CL16:34
yvlalso, we started talking about ST-Moodle integration16:34
yvl(also LAMS)16:34
yvlon Gradebook and Calendaring levels16:34
yvlthey will be making the plugins that export the data public16:35
th1aDo they have a strong feeling about how to handle the Moodle side?16:35
yvlwe were also talking about generic / their impl. specific stuff16:35
yvlin the sense that I'd like to have a generic one ;)16:36
yvlin the end16:36
yvlso it seems that it makes sense to me help them with the dummy hooks for the calendar and activity sources16:36
yvlthis evening I'll look through their patches closer16:37
yvlso that will be also a big hunk16:37
yvlthey want to move to the clearer implementation that gives less headache in the future16:37
yvlso.. some patching, but more plugin-like16:37
yvlalso - SSO16:37
yvl(but their SSO )16:38
yvlHelder should write you about UI improvements this week16:38
th1aAre they generally happy with flourish?16:39
yvl"a big improvement"16:39
yvlthere were basically few places that need further work16:39
yvlfor example, they'd like to be able to navigate to sections from the courses16:40
th1aYes, I'd say that was an oversight on our part.16:40
yvland obviously some of the relationship views that reload and jump don't make adding feasible in many cases16:40
yvlwell, Helder will sum everything up better16:41
yvlbut in general, very positive reception16:41
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yvloh, one of the things that we discussed a little is the same the Philippines project had16:42
th1aWe're due for a thorough re-nitpicking.16:42
yvla reasonable way to change app preferences and school name and such16:42
yvlwell, that's it in a nutshell16:43
th1aThanks yvl.16:43
aelkner_ok, i added title to the Node objects and fixed all the node views and the importer as a result16:44
* yvl read your discussion btw16:44
yvl+1 on adding title16:45
aelkner_luckily, nobody had any node data loaded, so ony i had to reimport to get the titles set up16:45
aelkner_i added the skillssets to the node table and node.pt16:45
aelkner_i finally got my Courses and FlatSectionsTable sheet import/export merged into trunk16:46
aelkner_also, the change to the reportLink directive to make file_type optional16:46
aelkner_and not render a modal link, but instead render a direct link16:47
aelkner_i'm ready to discuss more user-friendly composite view for adding layers/nodes/skillsets after the meeting16:47
aelkner_that's it for me16:47
th1aHere's the question about node ID.16:48
th1aNode ID tends to be contextual to the particular document.16:49
th1aWell skillset too...16:49
th1aLet's start with skillset.16:49
aelkner_nodes have no id16:49
th1aSo the skills in a set are sometimes numbered.16:49
aelkner_only skills16:49
th1aYes aelkner_, we're discussing what needs to be done.16:49
th1aCan skills be part of multiple skillsets?16:50
aelkner_they are contained, that's all16:50
aelkner_no relationship allowing one to many16:50
replaceafillthat's why they have equivalents, right?16:51
yvlseveral nodes in theory can share a single skillset16:51
th1aNodes could have ID's, but the problem is that they might have different id's (numbers basically) depending on which context you're looking at.16:51
yvlbut skills are unique to the skillset16:51
aelkner_and one node can point to many skillsets16:51
yvlyes, several nodes in theory can share a single skillset16:52
yvlwhy would you need IDs though?16:52
th1aYou just will have some documents that are hierarchical and skills are refered to with essentially a path of ID's.16:53
th1aSo we can either say "close enough" and just give nodes optional ID's.16:54
yvlyou mean... like labels?16:54
th1aOr, we can let containing nodes assign ID's to their contents.16:54
yvlor like IDs?16:54
th1aBut that might get crazy.16:54
th1aFrom the user point of view, they are ID's.16:54
th1aPerhaps not to the programmer.  ;-)16:55
yvldifference is:16:55
aelkner_well, we have the label attribute for their IDs16:55
th1aCalling them labels is probably clearer to you.16:55
yvllabel is intended to be used "one way" - for display16:55
yvlID is "two way" - both for display and retrieval16:55
yvlthey could work as IDs, in importers16:56
* yvl is not against IDs, just wanted to hear more from th1a :)16:56
aelkner_skills have an ID column in the inporter16:56
th1aSkills are a different matter, because they don't have the weird multiple container/label case.16:57
th1aI guess the question is if there is an obvious/sane way to give nodes labels based on their parent.16:57
th1aAnd if the answer is "no," we'll just give them an optional label and move on.16:57
aelkner_why would nodes need labels?16:58
aelkner_they don16:58
aelkner_they don't appear in the gradebook16:58
aelkner_i know they appear in the requirements document, but those are skill labels16:59
th1aaelkner_, I explained above -- sometimes in these documents people describe a skill based on its path.16:59
aelkner_perhaps you could explain what that means16:59
th1aWhich then requires that nodes have a label.16:59
yvlICT, Admin, Comp.1.A.16:59
yvlthree nodes, one line16:59
th1aLIke English Writing Persuasive Essay.16:59
th1aOr En.2.A17:00
th1aBelieve me, I've done this in real life.17:00
th1aMy point is that from one year to the next, the "Writing" node might go from "2" to "3" in the skills tree.17:02
th1aSo we can just say "whatever" and not really worry about that case (make a new node),17:02
yvl+1 :D17:03
th1aOr perhaps in the next 5 minutes, one of you might say "Oh yes, I know how we can handle that easily."17:03
th1aIf not, we'll just screw it.17:03
th1aAnd give nodes optional labels.17:03
aelkner_i'm sure i could handle it if i only could see what people mean by all of this17:03
aelkner_it wold help to have a small example test file with some nodes, layes, skilllsets and skllls17:04
th1aaelkner_ needs and example of skills that he can hold in his mind.17:04
aelkner_yes, i don't think in intuitive, etherial ways, i'm a sensate17:04
yvltell you what17:04
th1aIt would probably be better if aelkner_ would make one up himself.17:04
yvlI can send replaceafill a nice download of all CTE skills :)17:04
th1aI mean, we've got examples.17:04
aelkner_but i can't if i can't see what there is to make up17:04
yvlif he has time, he can populate the XLS files17:05
yvland we can then build a huge D B17:05
replaceafillyvl, sure :)17:05
aelkner_if the intuitive can see it, they should make up a doc for the sensates17:05
th1aWhy don't you make a set of piano playing skills.17:05
th1aSeriously, I would be happy for you to spend a couple hours on that.17:05
aelkner_making skillsets and skills is easy, already clearly defined17:06
aelkner_what's the point of that?17:06
yvl(and I think trying to fit the CTE thing early on is a good smoke test for our data model)17:06
aelkner_yes, CTE is key for the flexibility of our model17:06
th1aThe CTE thing is way, way, way, way more complicated and fucked up than anything else, which is a major reason aelkner_ is confused.17:07
aelkner_yeah, but once the example is lad out, the confusion disappears17:07
th1aThe CTE skills tree is COMPLETELY FUCKED SIDEWAYS.17:07
aelkner_if the example is so hard to write, then i would argue that the intuition is incorrect17:07
th1aThe example is not hard to write, that's the point.17:07
th1aIn every other case it is just a hierarchy.17:08
yvlth1a, could you please write an example XLS17:08
yvlbelieve me, that would help not only Alan :)17:08
* yvl has no idea how not fucked sideways skill tree looks17:08
yvlnever seen one :/17:08
th1aOK, I'll send one.17:08
yvlmuch appreciated17:08
aelkner_th1a, btw, i'll need to point you to the new xls formats17:09
aelkner_crap, sorry17:10
th1aOoh, look, the standards we used 10 years ago are finally on the web:17:10
aelkner_the second one is for layers and nodes17:10
aelkner_th1a, if you can fill in those files with meaningful data (no more than 2 skills per skillset is needed)17:11
aelkner_and the sideways year to year nodes or whatever you're talking about17:11
aelkner_that would help greatly17:11
th1aWell, part of the problem here is that there are the normal cases which are simple and then a vast gulf to the fucked up ones.17:13
* yvl knows only the fucked up ones :D17:14
aelkner_just one fucked up one would expose a lot17:14
aelkner_and turn the intuitive into algebra17:14
th1aMy point is that there are an infinite number of fucked cases.17:14
th1aWhich don't make any sense.17:14
aelkner_we have to support a logically limited set of scenarios, ofc17:15
th1aI think what we're lacking is a sense of the simple ones.17:15
aelkner_examples -> sense17:15
aelkner_start with a trivial one17:15
aelkner_then, do a second oine, not so trivial, but no so fucked up17:15
aelkner_we should already see a pattern develop17:16
aelkner_then, we could test that pattern against a really nasty one17:16
aelkner_then, voila, we have a well-defined algebra17:16
th1ayvl has already digested the main requirements into the data model.17:16
aelkner_well, examples are lacking, and that's the key17:17
yvlaelkner_, let's start with sane examples17:17
yvlwe can import the insane ones later17:17
th1aIf you want a complex example, look at the CTE skills trees.17:17
th1ashould go over the new importers anyhow and let them know if you make me cry.17:18
yvlbut XLS of sane ones would really help me :|17:18
aelkner_looking at CTE skills trees does not an example set of xls files make17:18
th1aOK, moving on.17:18
aelkner_yvl, could you come up with exmple XLS files to match your model?17:18
th1aI will do it.17:18
aelkner_ones that th1a could agree make sense17:18
th1aI will do it.17:19
th1ayvl has other things to do.17:19
th1aaelkner has to read through this document though:
aelkner_ok, that'll work17:21
aelkner_it looks pretty algebraic :)17:21
th1aOK.  In the meantime aelkner_, please give nodes an optional label.17:22
yvlcan I cut the meeting short today?17:24
th1aYes yvl.17:24
th1aThank you .17:24
th1aSee you wednesday.17:24
* yvl will be available by email as usual17:24
th1aLet me know if you have any questions, ofc.17:24
yvland sometimes IRC probably17:25
yvlok - good luck guys!17:25
th1aSay hi to helder and antonio for me.17:25
th1aaelkner_, we should probably talk later today.  I'm assuming you aren't really planning on working between now and mid-afternoon anyhow.17:27
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aelkner_well, i was about to embark on reading the pdf, so i'll be working on that17:29
th1aThanks aelkner_.17:30
replaceafilli fixed some small details in the gradebook17:30
replaceafillthe menus are now created using json requests + javascript17:31
replaceafillinstead of passing the huge html pieces17:31
th1aAh, good.17:31
replaceafillaccording to firebug, the menu for an activity was:17:31
replaceafilllike 1k of html17:31
replaceafillnow it's about 400 bytes17:31
replaceafillmore or less17:31
replaceafilland the menu is built with js on the browser17:32
replaceafilli sync'ed the journal with this change too17:32
replaceafilli'm almost done with the skills gradebook, and i have a question here17:32
replaceafillif we make the skills gradebook the default for the CanDo tab17:32
replaceafillhow is the user going to access the projects?17:33
th1aWell, to me it is one gradebook with two modes.17:33
th1aWe need a switch.17:33
replaceafillok, how does he change modes?17:33
replaceafilli was tempted to use the arrow pointing down :D17:33
th1aI don't know.  What do you think?17:33
replaceafillor insert something else there...17:33
replaceafillbut i really don't know17:34
th1aI think it needs to be explicit at the risk of being clunky.17:34
th1aLike, radio buttons at the top of the sidebar.17:34
th1aShow skills17:34
th1aShow projects17:34
replaceafillabove the section/term/year navigators?17:35
th1aThat's where I'd start unless you have a better idea.17:35
replaceafillok, i'll put it there and we start from that :)17:35
replaceafilland show it to you17:35
th1aBut basically, it is something where not confusing the casual user is more important than making it slick for the power user.17:36
replaceafillalso, i created an inventory of our pdf reports17:36
replaceafilland started populating a test db17:36
replaceafilli plan to start on that tomorrow17:36
replaceafillmy only concern at this point is rotating the text in the gradebook :D17:37
replaceafillfor the activity titles ;)17:37
replaceafilli  think we have enough for the rest of the templates17:37
replaceafilli think that's it from me17:38
th1aOK.  I'm pretty sure it is possible in reportlab, if not RML.17:38
replaceafilli've seen it in reportlab17:39
replaceafilli haven't seen it in rml17:39
th1aBasically though, we don't need to stop and spend four days on it.17:39
replaceafilli won't!17:39
th1aWe may need to do that report in mostly or all ReportLab.17:39
replaceafillhhmm, good point17:40
replaceafilli haven't thought of that17:40
th1aIt does help us a lot to get the diagonal text.17:40
th1aWe just don't necessarily need to do it right now.17:40
replaceafillah ok, cool17:40
replaceafillgood to know17:40
th1aI guess one question would be if there is an easy way to add some kind of RML directive for some custom ReportLab code.17:40
replaceafillaccording to yvl, it's possible (i remember i asked him when i did the id cards)17:41
replaceafillbut i don't know how to do it :(17:41
replaceafilli'll look into that too17:41
th1aLet's just try to keep diagonal text from taking longer than the rest of the task put together in this pass at it.17:43
th1aThanks replaceafill.17:43
th1amenesis:  I see we had an upgrade bug come up.17:43
menesisthat user has reported the same bug before17:44
menesisthere is an assert in evolution script that he hits, not sure why17:46
* replaceafill remembers someone said asserts in evolution scripts are evil, and now i see why17:46
menesisbut that's in a method with docstring "HACK: this does not work properly in generic case!"17:46
menesisI would just remove an assert17:47
menesisbecause the evolution converts all scoresystem utilities17:47
menesisand then tries to remove traces of those utilities that are not properly removed17:48
menesismaybe they are..17:48
menesisI suggested the reporter to do that and it worked17:49
th1areplaceafill:  Do you have any opinion about that?  Should we ask yvl?  Or just do it?17:50
aelkner_replaceafill, i just caught up with the log17:50
aelkner_you know, i rotated text once17:50
aelkner_it was for schooltool.niepa17:50
replaceafillaelkner_, ah!17:50
aelkner_and there was a custom class, but no directive was defined, we didn't get that far17:51
replaceafillth1a, we should ask yvl17:51
replaceafilli think he put the assert there17:51
replaceafillaelkner_, great, i'll check the niepa code17:51
aelkner_i'm available to discuss it, it has issues, like the offsets are hard-coded17:52
aelkner_but the size of a box is not fixed17:52
aelkner_just in the particular report, so it's a cludge17:53
aelkner_perhaps you can do some more of your css algebra (like you did for the gradebook)17:53
replaceafillcss algebra :D17:53
aelkner_remember you had to make sure the menu didn't get clipped17:54
aelkner_you dynamically used the location in an equation17:54
aelkner_to determine whether to popup left or right17:54
aelkner_my point is, you'll need to calculate what the offset is based on the dimensions of the box17:55
replaceafilllet me look at your niepa code and will ask you on wednesday17:55
aelkner_you'll understand what i mean after you've looked at it, yes17:55
replaceafillthanks though17:55
replaceafillit'll get me started for sure17:56
th1amenesis:  OK, we'll ask yvl.17:56
th1aThat would be something that would need to be pushed in a bugfix release, I'd think.17:57
th1amenesis:  Do you have any concerns about my release strategy email?17:57
menesisno, because that's what we were doing up to now17:58
menesisschooltool-owners/ppa was for bugfixes, schooltool-owners/dev for flourish testing17:59
th1aOK. Good.17:59
th1aIt wasn't meant to be shocking.  ;-)18:00
th1aHow's your schedule looking the next few weeks?18:00
menesisi'm working on philippines project this month18:01
th1aOK.  I'd like to give the users in Thailand a chance to try the gradebook performance improvements, say, sometime this month if possible.18:02
th1aIf the Philippines is taking all your time though, I understand.18:02
th1aI don't want that to fall over.18:03
menesisalso this week I will be the only developer in the office, might have to handle support requests for other products :/18:03
menesisif you need something, maybe I can do that18:04
menesisit is still schooltool18:04
menesis(the philippines project)18:04
th1aYes, I'm ok with it.18:04
th1aI'm the one who set it up!18:04
menesisyes but it's not like switching to a completely different project18:05
th1aOK.  I think we're on the same page menesis.18:05
th1aI'd say the only thing to worry about this week release wise would be if we make a decision about the evolution bug.18:06
th1aAnd push that.18:06
th1aOtherwise, the dev repositories can wait a week or two or more as necessary.18:06
th1aOK, I think we're done here.  Thanks gentlemen.18:07
menesisdev repositories?18:07
th1aTesting, whatever.18:07
menesisif you mean another ppa then maybe wait18:08
th1aFor testing the gradebook performance.18:08
th1aWell, maybe it is the same one updated.18:08
menesisbut if aelkner_ or replaceafill wants to merge things to trunk (flourish) then go ahead18:08
th1a<menesis> no, because that's what we were doing up to now18:08
th1a schooltool-owners/ppa was for bugfixes, schooltool-owners/dev for flourish testing18:08
menesisI can branch stable branches from the point I need18:09
th1aOK.  I don't think we'll worry about it immediately.18:10
th1aHave a good couple of days!18:11
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.18:11
aelkner_th1a, have a moment to discuss the pdf?18:11
aelkner_page 4 has English 1 Reading, which is E1 a18:12
aelkner_then it talks about activities 1b, 3a, 3b18:12
aelkner_i don't see where they are defined18:13
aelkner_also, E1 a, is rather long, broken up into a number of sub competencies18:13
aelkner_mounting a tripad is a lot more specific then 'make a talk show'18:13
aelkner_it does talk a lot about activities to become competent, but we only have projects which are collections of skills18:14
th1aYou probably need this:
th1aHow to read the standards starts on page 8.18:15
th1aE1 is itself a rather oddball standard.18:17
th1athe cross references in the example activities are to other standards also addressed by that activity.18:18
th1aWhat they're calling activities would be "projects" in CanDo.18:18
th1aThis isn't the simplest document to figure out, I suppose...18:22
th1aThe hierarchy is simple though!18:22
th1aDoes that help?18:25
replaceafillth1a, gradebook question: worksheets deployed from report sheets don't show the Average or Total columns18:26
replaceafillbut they're able to show Tardies and Absences18:27
replaceafilli think they shouldn't, right?18:27
th1aIn this case the user has to decide if they want to evaluate the standards themselves, like E2a, or if they want to evaluate the constituent indicators.18:27
replaceafilloops, sorry for interrupting18:27
th1areplaceafill:  I'm not sure it matters.18:28
replaceafillah ok, just wondering18:28
aelkner_th1a, this choice between evaluating E2a and the constituent indicators18:29
aelkner_how do mean, choose one or the other to allow and go with it?18:29
aelkner_or allow both some how?18:29
aelkner_we've never had comps that contained comps before18:30
aelkner_if that's what you're saying18:30
aelkner_unless SOLs is for that18:30
aelkner_would we have a tree that has, for example, one skillset containing big things like E1a, E1b, etc.18:31
th1aIt is up to them to decide what level in this document corresponds to "skillset" and "skills"18:32
aelkner_then other skillsets, one for E1a, that contains all the skills broken down18:32
th1aThe E2a level could be skill or skillset.18:32
th1aThey do have to decide it for the whole document though.18:33
aelkner_well, that's what i mean, it has to be fixed18:33
th1a(well maybe they don't, but it would be a mess otherwise)18:33
th1aIf the document is inconsistent or ambiguous,18:34
th1athe user has the choice of making a consistent interpretation, which would keep things clear.18:34
th1aOr, for that matter, if they make it inconsistent, that'll work in CanDo too.18:35
th1aNot particularly well, but there is nothing we can do about THAT.18:35
th1aBut basically, the user just has to decide on what level they're going to evaluate these standards.18:36
th1aIt is just a decision.18:36
th1aThey have to decide.18:36
th1aThey can't use these standards with pencil and paper without making that decision.18:36
aelkner_i would think so, that's what i always refer to as process18:37
aelkner_that's all that really matters to them18:37
aelkner_the way we represent the data in the model is what matters to us18:37
aelkner_and i'm looking forward to the moment when i see the connection between the process and the model18:38
th1aThe way we did this at FHS, translated to our model is:18:38
th1aEnglish  is a "subject" level node.18:39
th1aE2 is a skillset.18:39
th1aE2a is a skill.18:39
th1aThat's it.18:39
th1aExcept we would call E2 a "cluster"18:39
th1aand E2a a "standard."18:40
th1aThat's the whole model.18:40
th1aThen you can group those into projects.18:41
th1aSometimes you have to come up with titles because the standards people are too lazy to do that themselves.18:41
th1aDoes that make sense, aelkner_?18:45
aelkner_it's english18:45
aelkner_se, the thing is, each time the problem gets restated, in english, it changes18:46
aelkner_if it were stated in xls, it could only be clear18:46
aelkner_because math can't lie18:47
th1aI will make your xls.18:47
th1aBut it is not that complicated.18:47
aelkner_there are many things in the xls that you didn't mention ust above, so i'll forward to seeing it18:48
aelkner_did you see the links i posted earlier in the meeting18:48
aelkner_they are the latest versions with all the columns18:48
aelkner_no label column as you asked for yet, but perhaps as you fill it in, you'll see that it's not needed18:49
aelkner_or, the other possibility is, you'll demostrate that it is needed18:49
aelkner_either way, it's a win-win18:49
aelkner_oh, and if it is, then i'll add it right away18:49
th1aIt is not needed in this case, but that doesn't say much.18:50
aelkner_no, but that's the point, you need to come up with the various cases18:50
aelkner_then i'll see the point of having these attributes in these objects in the first place18:50
th1aI don't have to prove things to you through examples.18:51
aelkner_you're not getting my point18:51
th1aI am actually more familiar with a wider variety of these documents than our customers.18:51
aelkner_typing is wearing me out, can we talk on the phone?18:51
th1aHow about if I have lunch and a shower and write the XLS?18:52
aelkner_ok, you want to set up a meeting time?18:53
th1aHOw about 2:00.18:53
* replaceafill catching up with blender :)19:09
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jelknerth1a, replaceafill, are you here?19:34
replaceafillyes jelkner19:34
jelknerso we had the meeting this morning19:35
jelknerand it appears we have a *partial* victory19:35
jelknertwo people showed up19:35
jelknerone clearly supportive, the other clearly not19:35
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jelknerthe one who wasn't supportive started out saying19:36
jelkner"When I heard that Jeff Elkner was involved"19:37
jelkner"I figured this must be one of those open source Ubuntu things"19:37
jelkner"but I decided to come anyway"19:37
jelknerSo I did get permission to use ST next year myself19:37
jelknerwhich is good19:37
jelknerbecause at present I'm rouge19:38
jelknerI'm the only teacher in APS not using easy grade pro19:38
jelknerso now i have "permission"19:38
jelknerwe have "permission" to try this with the HILT A program also19:38
jelknerthat's what I mean by "partial" victory19:39
th1aWhat was total victory?19:39
th1aAll of ACC?19:39
jelknerbecause it isn't clear yet whether Isaac, Sean, and Pat could use it with all their classes19:39
jelknerlet me explain19:39
jelkneri will use it with all my classes19:39
jelkner(i'm doing that now)19:39
jelknerbut i'm the only one19:40
jelknerif isaac, sean and pat are only allowed to use ST with the one class19:40
jelknerthey would have to use two different gradebooks19:40
jelknerthat's a pain in the butt19:40
jelknerand i don't know how happy my colleagues would be to do that19:41
jelknerso i need to talk to them19:41
th1aWhat's the import/export format situation?19:41
jelknerahh, that gets much more complicated19:41
jelknersince APS just bought a whole new system19:41
jelkneri need to find out what it is from dave19:41
jelkneri believe it used to be called "Genisis"19:41
jelknerare you familiar with it?19:42
jelknerthey are behind in deployment (what's new)19:42
jelknerbut now they plan to role that out not next year19:42
jelknerbut the year after19:42
jelknerso we probably don't have to worry about grade export19:42
jelknerwe would just do next year what i do now19:42
jelknerenter grades directly into eSchools+19:43
jelknerthat would be good news, actually19:43
th1aUh, ok.19:43
jelknersince we could focus on things that really matter19:43
jelknerlike having good data19:43
jelkneraccess on-line by students (and parents)19:44
jelknerthat was a big issue raised this morning19:44
jelknerbecause aps is making a lot of publicity about how parents can now view their student's info on-line19:44
jelknerso i'm thinking19:44
jelknerthat's where we can focus our energy19:44
jelkneron things that ST needs in general19:44
jelknerlike students able to see the journal info19:45
th1aThat's late 2012, early 2013 stuff, yes.19:45
jelknerso i think we are ok19:45
jelkneri'm at least satisfied that i can proceed with the pyquiz work this summer19:47
jelknerand use it here next year19:47
jelknerso i can call paul and david in now and start talking to them19:47
th1aSo I presume it was the IT side that was skeptical?19:47
jelkneractually, no19:47
jelknerour data guy (the head of data services) was friendly19:47
jelknerhe likes us19:48
jelknerand we have dealt with him before a lot with cando19:48
jelknerthe other woman there actually does staff support for teacher interaction with the data system19:49
jelknershe was the one who clearly had ideological issues with free software19:49
jelknerso that's a battle i won't win19:49
jelknerso there we have it19:50
jelknera "partial" victory19:50
jelknerenough to move forward anyway19:50
jelkneri'll talk to my colleagues about what they would like to do next year19:51
jelknerand get back to you all when i have a clearer idea of that19:51
jelknerth1a, the next thing i'll need to talk to you about is the summer pilot19:52
jelknerwe start july 219:52
jelknerwe want to test our fall software on the summer program19:52
jelknerincluding: cando and gradebook integration (cando projects that show up in the gradebook)19:52
jelknerand pyquiz19:52
th1aWe're coming along.19:53
jelknerit's may 719:53
jelknerdo we look ok for a july 2 start?19:53
jelknerok, that's all for now19:54
jelknerinterim grades are due19:54
jelknerso i need to get back to my teacher duties19:54
th1aOK, get to work jelkner.19:54
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Lumieredamn... misssed jelkner20:13
th1aaelkner_: where do I give skillsets a title?20:13
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th1ahi aelkner_.21:04
th1aDid you get my spreadsheets?21:07
aelkner_not yet, looking now...21:09
aelkner_ok, for starters, you'll need to define E1, etc. in the skillsets sheet21:10
th1aAm I missing the skillsets sheet?21:11
aelkner_you stil have carpentry there for some reason21:11
aelkner_no, it's there21:11
aelkner_open calc is a bit annoying that it gives so much room for the cell slider and so litle for the sheets21:12
th1aMaybe I'm not seeing that sheet for some reason.21:12
th1aAnyhow, you understand what is supposed to go there.21:12
aelkner_if you hit the slider at the very left, you'll set it21:12
aelkner_set it21:13
aelkner_ok, the other sheet you sent doesn't look anything like our import format, where are the Layers and Nodes sheets?21:14
aelkner_i sent you a link to the example file, did you follow the link?21:14
aelkner_there you can define the layers you have for your first sample school and then the nodes21:16
aelkner_btw, the Layers and Nodes sheets are imported from the school year context21:16
aelkner_so any data there is assumed to be for the school year21:17
aelkner_the only connection to the global, non-year-dependent, data is the skillsets column of the Nodes sheet21:17
aelkner_there, the link between this years node and all year's global data is made21:17
* th1a had to deal with a complicated poop-related emergency.21:19
th1aThere is one node.21:19
th1aThat's it!21:20
th1aI mean, you could add one for math, one for science, and one for "Applied Learning" and then you'd have the whole thing.21:20
th1aBut they're all Subject layer nodes.21:21
aelkner_ok, i'm sorry, i made the same mistake you did, not seeing the other sheet21:21
aelkner_stupid open calc and it's slider21:21
th1aIs there a layer sheet?21:21
aelkner_you see the |< at the bottom, first ou should slide the slider to the right of the |> to the right for roon21:22
aelkner_then hit the |< and both Layes and Nodes sheet names come into view21:23
th1aWe literally need to pay attention to what sheet we have open when saving these.21:23
th1aSo basically there, there is just one entry: subject | Subject21:23
aelkner_yeah, good point, i already started to point the cell to the upper left column of the sheet i was on21:24
aelkner_but truely, before i commit a change to one of these sheets, i should navigate to the first sheet, first cell and hit save21:24
aelkner_so, you see that you would just have the one row, define subject, the id, with Subject as the title21:25
aelkner_and the node should point to subject with a small s21:25
aelkner_could you come up with at least a two-level heirarchy to demostrate that much?21:26
aelkner_that would be what i would call a basis, simple but demostrative of structure21:26
th1aIs there something wrong with the carpentry example?21:26
aelkner_then we could come up with a whole other school wth more screwed up structure21:26
th1aNo, we will not do that.21:27
th1aWe're not going to sit around making up screwed up problems.21:27
th1aWhat doesn't the carpentry example do for us?21:28
aelkner_well, just dong CTE with versioning should be screwed up enough21:28
th1aThe data model is fine.21:28
aelkner_the carpentry example is not for users to use as a guide21:28
aelkner_it was for testing the code21:28
th1aWe're not talking about user guides at this point.21:29
th1aI can try to find an example that is already in a machine-readable format.21:29
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th1aOr we can just use CanDo stuff for that.21:29
th1aA subset thereof.21:30
aelkner_yes, a small subset that has same complexity, but two skills per skillset limit for our sanity21:30
th1aLook... if we write a browser for this stuff if will not be so mind bending.21:31
aelkner_just stick with me here, if we create the import samples, it won't be mind bending21:32
th1aCan you change the node view to just show the top level nodes and with links to parents and children?21:32
th1aYou know what aelkner_?  It would be easier for me to enter these if I had add views.21:32
th1aInstead of stupid spreadsheets.21:32
th1aSpreadsheets are good if you've already got these in machine readable form.21:33
aelkner_i can't made views wthout knowing where stuff is supposed to go in the model21:33
th1aNot for just typing stuff.21:33
aelkner_look, if the model is good, you should be able to populate the spreadshert21:33
th1aWhat about that don't you know?21:34
th1aI just don't want to type in spreadsheets.21:34
th1aIt is confusing!21:34
aelkner_if you can't, then we need to fix the model21:34
aelkner_i shouldn't be confusing21:34
th1aNo... that's why we're writing web forms.21:34
aelkner_the data model is supposed to be illuminating21:34
th1aThat's the point of this exercise.21:34
th1aLook, spreadsheets are not designed for typing in hieararchical data.21:35
th1aThey aren't outliners.21:35
aelkner_still, i'd appreciate if you would just cooperate with me on this21:35
th1aNor, for that matter, are they designed for entering paragraphs.21:35
aelkner_my feeling is that the data model is false, you say it isn't, but you can't prove it is21:36
th1aFalse in what way?21:36
aelkner_if it's not a false model, then it should be trivial to fill in the darn sheet21:36
th1aIt is not trivial data!21:36
aelkner_if you only have two skillssets wth two skills each, it is21:36
th1aWe have lots of spreadsheets that we use for import/export that I wouldn't want to type.21:36
aelkner_just be crating a simple example that actually would succesfully import is a victory21:37
th1aThe carpentry example works, right?21:37
th1aWhat's the problem?21:37
aelkner_it doesn't do anything real21:37
aelkner_it just exercises the import code21:37
th1aCompared to what?21:37
aelkner_what you started producing just now, english skills, that's more likely to be real21:38
th1aReal in what sense?21:38
aelkner_could actually be uses at a real school kind of real21:38
th1aIt is more real data, but in structure it is all the same.21:38
th1aI don't understand what you're imagining the problem is here.21:39
aelkner_i just don't see how any of the spreadsheet could be confusing21:39
aelkner_it just follows the model, so if the model is clear, the sheets are21:39
th1aIt is not so much confusing as a pain.  It isn't the best way to enter a bunch of textual data.21:39
aelkner_i don't need a bunch, just a 2 x 2 x 2, etc. sized data set that pretended to be usable in a school21:40
aelkner_if we had this example, we could then discuss how the ui would work to get it into the data21:40
aelkner_two layers21:41
aelkner_i don't 2 X 2 nodes, two nodes for each layer, i guess21:41
aelkner_a couple of skillsets, with a couple of skills each21:41
aelkner_a lnkage between the nodes and the skillsets21:41
* th1a has a call.21:42
aelkner_then, we could be looking at the same set of succesfully importable data, and i think we'd have something21:44
aelkner_the carpentry example really isn't gong to do that for us21:44
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th1aJust got dwelsh's update from the day's meeting.21:55
aelkner_i just set up my demo instance to have no skills or nodes21:55
th1aI do genuinely think you'd understand better if you'd enter the data yourself.21:55
th1aYou might find this a bit clearer:
aelkner_what you realize is the more english, the less clear, the more math, the more clear21:57
th1aThere is no math.21:58
th1aMost of the time these are shallow trees.21:58
aelkner_yes, objects having attributes, some of which point to other objects21:58
aelkner_that's math21:58
th1ahere's the thing.21:58
th1aI think once yvl gets back -- or at some point in the future -- we'll add a document object, which will give us a little clearer distinction in the UI.21:59
th1aSo that the user knows that practically, he or she has the top of a tree they can browse.21:59
th1aAnd then also have the current node soup views for when that doesn't apply.22:00
th1aYou just have to imagine "ok, I've got this book, my boss (the principal) told me to enter these skills, what do I do?"22:01
th1aHow would you want to type in those math standards, aelkner_?22:02
th1aI would want to have a button that said "New Standards Document"22:04
th1aThen enter the title...22:05
th1aAnd, unfortunately, I'd have to enter the levels in the hierarchy next (ug).22:05
th1aAnd then start plugging away.22:05
th1a1st subject, English,22:05
th1aOK, 1st cluster, reading,22:05
th1areading 25 texts...22:06
th1areading comprehension22:06
th1aok, on to writing22:06
aelkner_slow down22:06
th1anarrative report,22:06
th1apersuasive essay,22:06
aelkner_those last things are skills?22:06
th1aAlthough I don't call them skills.22:07
th1aThis is what we were talking about last week...22:07
aelkner_to save confusion, skill = comp = standard, right?22:07
th1alet's set that aside.22:07
th1aYes, we'll call them skills today.22:07
aelkner_all three are identical thing in reality, just different names22:07
th1aFor our purposes.22:08
aelkner_ok, you can use any f the three at any tme, i i will understand22:08
aelkner_so, you realize that there is no place for a skill in our node22:08
aelkner_nodes do point to skillsets22:08
aelkner_but what you are describing does not fit our model22:09
th1aI have no idea of what you're talking about.22:09
aelkner_which is kind of the point of asking you to make a sample file22:09
aelkner_by trying to, you see that you can't22:09
th1aThat is the example I made for you.22:09
th1aIt is exactly the same thing.22:09
th1aEnglish > Reading > 25 texts22:09
aelkner_so this example is weird, btw, this sample school wants a teacher to enter a score for E1a22:16
aelkner_of E1b22:16
aelkner_E1b has five bullet point with completely different demostrative skills22:17
th1aWe don't need those scores.22:17
aelkner_and the teacher has to give one grade for E1b?22:17
th1aOr, if your school prefers, then make the E1b level the skillset.22:17
aelkner_ok, and then the broken up skills would be inside there, i can see that22:18
aelkner_i'd prefer if our example would have at least two levels22:21
th1aWell, make E1b a skillset then.22:21
th1aJust give E1a one skill in the skillset.22:22
aelkner_so the layers could be Subject, ?22:23
aelkner_i'm not sure what cluster means so i don't want to suggest that22:24
th1aCluster doesn't mean anything in particular.22:24
aelkner_subject, sub-area?22:25
th1aSubject > Cluster > Standard (skillset) > Skill22:25
aelkner_what you just typed is logically self-contradictory, so let's try again22:25
aelkner_Subject, Cluster are the layers22:25
aelkner_E1 is a node at layer, subject22:26
aelkner_E1a is a node at layer, cluster22:26
aelkner_it has parent E122:26
th1aE is the Subject22:27
th1aE1 is the cluster22:27
th1aE1a is the standard22:27
th1aE1a(1) is the skill22:27
th1astandard = skillset22:27
aelkner_ok, i'll forgive you for saing standard = skill before22:28
aelkner_or at least agreeing when i said it22:28
th1aI thought you wanted another layer of nodes?22:28
aelkner_but we're getting somewhere22:28
aelkner_let's start with the New Document Model link you refered to22:29
aelkner_i'm assuming this is at the year context22:29
aelkner_it's a new year, nothing is set up yet22:29
aelkner_they navigate to the year find in the Actions linkset, New Document Model22:29
aelkner_it asks for title and a description22:30
th1aWe probably don't want to create the new document object yet.22:30
th1aIt could just let you add one of the available top-level nodes.22:30
aelkner_ok, we assume the app only has one for now?22:30
th1aAdd Subject22:31
aelkner_that's not a node, it's a layer22:31
th1aNot to the user.22:31
th1aThey want to add a subject.22:31
th1aThat's the point.22:31
aelkner_yeah, but the app needs to know that they want to add a subject22:31
aelkner_that there is such a thing as subject22:32
aelkner_so they need to create a subject layer22:32
th1aFor now we'll just use the available top level nodes, ok?22:32
th1aLet's assume levels.22:32
aelkner_ah, assuming levels22:32
th1aThis is not the final form.22:32
aelkner_so someone else set up three levels, Subject, Cluster, Standard22:33
aelkner_Cluster has parent Subject, Standard has parent Cluster22:33
th1a Just subject and cluster22:33
th1astandard is a skillset.22:33
aelkner_nodes are not skillsets, they point to them22:33
aelkner_skillsets exist outside of the context of a schoolyear22:34
th1aFine, but the user doesn't need to know that.22:34
aelkner_well, they kind of do to deal with year over year variations in skills22:34
aelkner_they need to have a way to tell the app, theses are skills regardless of year22:35
aelkner_and here are the skills we are teaching this year22:35
aelkner_ok, but let's pretend that they don't have that knowledge22:35
aelkner_they just think that this year is global22:35
th1aIt is not so much that, as they don't need to understand the concept of "skillset" and they definitely should not need to completely change context at this point.22:36
aelkner_so we have just layers Subject and Cluster set up for them22:39
th1aOnce you get to the bottom of your nodes, you have to add a skillset or select an existing one.22:39
aelkner_a node can have any number of skillsets 0-n, so there would have to be these options?22:42
aelkner_1) add a new skillset22:42
aelkner_2) add an existing skilllset22:43
th1aWe don't have to support all options through this interface.22:43
aelkner_3) remove a skilllset22:43
th1aI guess it doesn't make much difference if we support multiple skillsets per node.22:43
th1aBut yes, what you said.22:43
aelkner_ok, and the view for adding a new skillset would add it to the global app data, even though the user doesn't need to know that22:45
aelkner_and the view for adding and existing or removing a skillset could be like all our relationship views22:46
aelkner_red minus signs next to the skillsets that are already assigned to the node22:46
aelkner_and blue + next to those that exist already but are not assigned to the node22:46
aelkner_with search/filter22:46
aelkner_does that sound right?22:47
th1aIt would probably be best to not show the whole batch of available skillsets without a search.22:47
th1aYou should be able to find what you need with a search.22:47
th1aWell, also we're going to be making a widget soonish.22:48
aelkner_so the search just has a special filter logic that no filter means no results, that's np22:48
th1aFor browsing these trees.22:48
aelkner_they enter a filter, they see result22:48
aelkner_what about this:22:49
aelkner_the year context has one link in the Actions menu, Configure Skills Document22:49
aelkner_it leads to a tree view22:49
aelkner_it has an Add linkset with Subject link22:50
aelkner_after adding a subject, the tree has one root node, English22:50
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aelkner_next to English is +, with rollover text, 'Add Cluster'22:50
aelkner_after adding 'Reading Skills', the tree comes back as:22:51
th1aAt this point I'm just about ready to let you try whatever makes sense to you.22:51
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th1aTo get the ball rolling, at least.22:51
aelkner_ok, i'm going to assum that levels are loaded, and i'll come up with something to build the tree22:52
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aelkner_i meant layers are loaded, but you knew what i meant22:54
th1aOK.  We set then?23:01
aelkner_yeah, i have enough to get started23:12
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