IRC log of #schooltool for Friday, 2012-05-04

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th1aignas: ayt?16:13
ignasth1a, ^16:17
th1ahi ignas.16:17
th1aWhat's up with the SchoolTool contract thing.  Did your boss get my email?16:18
ignasyeah he got it, but then a lot of things happened and now we are kind of stalling16:18
ignashe suddenly had to go to US for a week16:18
ignaswell a bit more than a week16:18
ignasstalling not as intentional stalling16:18
ignasbut rather as - no idea what and where and when :)16:18
ignasmore than :)16:19
th1aOK.  I'm going to read that as a "not any time soon."16:19
ignasproblem mostly is - we are very short on management bandwith now :/ so if it was something with clear requirements and well defined scope, we would just have to find the development resources16:22
th1aHm.  OK.  Yes, I understand you are interested in general.16:23
ignasin general yes, just that I don't feel I can do the negotiations/finding out the details stuff my self at the moment :/16:26
th1aOK.  Understood.16:26
ignasthough if I would get an email asking me how difficult something would be and how long it would take I guess my technical mind would take over :)16:28
th1aWell, I'm making a point of trying to put myself too much in the middle of Australia/Lithuania projects.16:30
th1aComplicated enough as it is.16:30
ignasmakes sense16:33
ignaswe got the contacts, I will try to find the time and write them a note and see what happens16:35
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th1ahi aelkner_.21:07
aelkner_i've made a lot more progress than i thought i would, still working on some kinks21:07
aelkner_like filtering, but i can install it to my demo instance now21:07
th1aOK.  Cool.21:08
aelkner_i was just hoping to get one last thing in, the filtering, but i would need a little longer21:08
aelkner_i'm actually starting to warm up to the tables, i think the more i would work with them, then better21:08
aelkner_there's some new stuff that yvl put in there that makes things more registration-driven21:09
aelkner_which is nice because it's more table-driven in that way21:09
aelkner_i just need to grok the whole paradigm over time, it'll take a few projects to get it down21:10
aelkner_you don't care that much about filtering descriptions of nodes right away, so i could install it now21:10
th1aI'll be happy if it works at all.21:12
aelkner_i'll ping you in 10-15 mins21:13
aelkner_th1a, ok, i installed what i have so far, and i had to import the sample data from the stests21:37
aelkner_so the skillsets are now a mix of the stest data and the demo data from last week21:38
th1aWhat's the url?21:38
aelkner_but that shouldn't be a problem, just letting you know21:38
aelkner_start here so you get the whole picture:21:39
aelkner_now, in addition to the Layers link, there is a Nodes link21:39
aelkner_i fixed the Done link in the layer view, so that part works without a hitch21:39
aelkner_i'm still working on getting the description instead of title to be checked in the various table classes for the Node object, which has no title21:40
aelkner_unfortunately, there are a lot of places in the table classes that just assume that an object has a title21:40
aelkner_i kind of wich yvl had chosen title for the Node attribute instead of description21:41
aelkner_but he probably had his reasons21:41
th1aNode attribute?21:41
aelkner_i just realized that there is a column missing from the Nodes table, skillsets21:41
aelkner_Node is an object, title is the attribute that almost all of our objects have21:42
aelkner_Node doesn21:42
th1aDoesn't at all?21:42
th1aWell, thats wrong.21:42
aelkner_do Nodes need titles?21:42
aelkner_do they need descriptions?21:43
th1aTHey need id, title, description.21:43
th1aWith description as the optional one.21:43
aelkner_they don't have any of those things21:44
aelkner_Skill objects have title, external_id, description, label21:44
aelkner_required, retired and equivalent as well21:45
aelkner_but nodes only have description, parents, layers, skillsets21:45
aelkner_isn't this all the stuff that was decided at the sprint?21:45
th1aOh, that particular point might not have come up, or at least only in passing.21:46
aelkner_i wasn't following the discussion, and now i can't exactly follow the data model, but i can code to it :)21:46
th1aWe would have had to have been taking detailed notes.21:46
th1aIt shouldn't be that hard to add a couple standard attributes?21:46
aelkner_yeah, but it is wise to have one person design a data model, stop in the middle and have someone else change it21:47
aelkner_i think that it would help to at least understand the intent of the attributes defined21:47
aelkner_perhaps we would make a mistake in changing one21:47
aelkner_if we didn't properly understand why we have what we have21:47
th1aWell... it makes more sense than making an application that isn't designed to fit the requirements.21:48
th1aThey're all just metadata anyhow.21:48
aelkner_i can kind of tell that some of this data is meant to be hidden from the user, as metadata as you say21:50
aelkner_i'm not sure how it ties together21:50
aelkner_i mean, i see the attributes of the objects and the relationships set up21:51
th1aIsn't there an interface for a node that describes its attributes?21:51
aelkner_that file, and the implementation files of the classes themselves has been what i've been working from21:53
th1aCan't you just give it two more attributes?21:53
th1aOr one, really.21:54
th1aWell... maybe it needs a user-definable id.21:54
th1aUser editable.21:54
aelkner_the point is: you or i don't know the answer to that21:54
aelkner_there is a complex set of inter-operating objects here, and we don't know why21:55
aelkner_i'm not going to say that i know that we can add an attribute when i don't know what that means21:55
th1aThey definitely need a title.21:55
aelkner_why would a node need a title?21:55
aelkner_where and when is this title going to be seen?21:56
aelkner_aren't the titles in the skills or skillsets the one that the user see?21:56
th1a"Carpentry" is not a description.  It is a title.21:56
aelkner_that's a skill, right?21:56
th1aIt is a craft.21:56
aelkner_or is it a layer?21:56
th1aWhich is a node.21:56
th1aCarpentry = node21:57
th1aCraft = its layer.21:57
th1a"Carpentry" should be the title of the node.21:57
aelkner_you're so sure that is why Node objects exist?  what does the title, 'Carpentry' in the skill has to do with it?21:58
aelkner_are  nodes supposed to be copies of skills?21:59
aelkner_that can't be because they have skillsets21:59
aelkner_one node could potentially have more than one skillset22:00
aelkner_each with a different title22:00
aelkner_sorry that i didn't include a skillsets col in the ui yet22:00
aelkner_but you see it in the file22:00
th1aNodes are nodes in the hierarchy.22:01
th1aThey explain the context of the skillsets and skills.22:01
th1aGenerally they just have titles but also they might have descriptions.22:02
aelkner_could you give me an example of two skillset titles, both pointed to by and node and what the node title would be?22:02
th1aA skillset is just a group of skills.22:03
th1aIn Common Core ELA, they might be:22:04
th1a"Key Ideas and Details"22:04
th1a"Craft and Structure"22:04
th1aand "Integration of Knowledge and Ideas"22:04
th1aThe node above that might be "Literacy in History/Social Studies"22:05
th1aLook... it isn't that big of a deal.  I think we decided that skills should be built around the descriptions, because they're more likely to be expressed that way.22:06
th1aNodes are just more likely to be based around titles.22:06
th1aThat's just the way these things work.22:06
aelkner_so the node is for this year, the skill set is global, so the node points to one or more skillsets22:08
aelkner_but, it's the node title and description that appears in the gradebook, right?22:08
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th1atbh I don't think nodes appear in the gradebook at all.22:09
aelkner_where would the user see the title?22:09
th1aIf he was browsing the larger structure of the standards.22:10
th1aThe gradebook only shows the skills and skillsets.22:10
th1aI don't think cando had nodes at all.22:10
th1aDid it know about the higher levels of the hierarchy?22:10
th1aI can't even remember what VA calls them.22:11
aelkner_the larger structure of the standards explains how a particular set of skillsets gets into a section's gradebook22:11
aelkner_does that sound on target with what you just said about browsing them?22:11
th1aPretty much.22:12
aelkner_i think it's coming together for me a bit more here22:13
aelkner_so the title of the node is important fr browsing this year's structure of standards22:13
aelkner_and the description is still needed, right?22:13
th1aNodes just tend to have titles instead of descriptions.22:14
th1aBut they should be allowed to have descriptions.22:14
aelkner_in other words, yes22:14
aelkner_ok, adding the title attribute is straight-forward and highly unlikely to throw off intent of the data model22:15
aelkner_i should add that definitely22:15
aelkner_and the table would then have:22:15
aelkner_title, desctiption, children, parents, layers and skillsets22:15
aelkner_a bit crowded, but this is just the raw table that we have so far22:16
aelkner_we will be making cleaner, tree-like views soon anyway22:17
aelkner_i think we will want to always keep these views as well, just the links may need to go elsewhere22:17
th1aBasically, yes.22:18
aelkner_ok, there a lot of things i will ned to change to add the title attribute, interface, object, unit tests, import/export22:19
aelkner_table views, etc.22:19
aelkner_it will keep me busy22:19
aelkner_plus i need to finally merge the FlatSectionsTable importer to schooltool core22:20
aelkner_there are a lot of feature, like stests for schooltool importer that are in that merge22:20
aelkner_i'd prefer to get that merged before soing anyting with unicode id testing22:20
aelkner_remember that is really testing for broken redirects in view classes, so it's not the same project anyway22:21
aelkner_anyway, i think we should wait until monday to start discussing the tree views, ok?22:22
th1aOK, but use non-ASCII in all tests anyhow, ok?22:22
aelkner_going forward, sure22:22
aelkner_ok, good meeting22:23
th1aThanks aelkner_.22:23
aelkner_i think that now that you've seen the data more, you were in a position to explain what it was for :)22:23
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