IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2012-04-16

*** alga has quit IRC00:32
*** jstraw has joined #schooltool00:46
*** Lumiere has quit IRC00:47
*** jstraw is now known as Lumiere00:47
*** paulproteus has quit IRC00:47
*** jstraw has joined #schooltool00:49
*** paulproteus has joined #schooltool00:49
*** Lumiere has quit IRC00:51
*** jstraw is now known as Lumiere00:51
*** ignas has quit IRC01:00
*** aks has joined #schooltool06:01
*** aks has quit IRC06:06
*** aks has joined #schooltool06:06
*** yvl has joined #schooltool09:59
*** yvl has quit IRC11:18
*** menesis has joined #schooltool11:18
*** alga has joined #schooltool11:52
*** yvl has joined #schooltool12:51
*** menesis has quit IRC12:56
*** ignas has joined #schooltool13:06
*** menesis has joined #schooltool14:19
*** th1a has joined #schooltool14:50
*** aks has quit IRC14:54
*** aks has joined #schooltool14:56
*** menesis has quit IRC15:14
*** menesis has joined #schooltool15:15
*** aks has quit IRC15:33
*** replaceafill has joined #schooltool16:12
th1ahi aelkner, replaceafill, yvl, menesis.16:29
yvlhey guys16:29
th1aCan we start with a quick discussion of this email I just got from intelli:16:29
th1aI am in the process of putting a specific template together for importing our schools data for Schools.  When doing test imports the schoolstool system creates a contact record for every person record but does not link the contact record to the person record, in effect making the contact record redundant.16:29
replaceafillgood morning/afternoon16:29
th1aSo... does he probably need to set the relationship in the contact relationship sheet?16:31
th1aI guess I need to review that and add some docs and/or notes?16:32
th1aI should add the notes to the empty_data.xls spreadsheet at least.16:33
replaceafillit seems like our sample data doesn't create bound contacts...16:33
th1aI'm not sure that's what he's saying.16:34
th1aI'll have to ask a follow-up I think.16:35
aelkneri'm not sure what he's saying :)16:35
replaceafilli think he means "bound" contacts16:35
aelknerbut we do have a Contact Persons sheet16:35
th1aMy guess is that they didn't set the relationships.16:35
replaceafillbut as th1a said, maybe he's missing the relationship16:35
th1aYou still need a relationship for a "self" contact, right?16:35
replaceafillor maybe the relationship doesn't work :(16:36
th1aIt isn't necessarily intuitive that you have to define the self contact.16:36
th1aAnd maybe we should change that, but it would be a problem if your contact id's clashed with your person id's.16:37
th1aOK moving on.16:37
th1ayvl: how are you doing?16:37
yvlumm, ok.16:38
yvlwondering what I should work on next, actually,16:38
yvlbecause... Alan is taking over the importer?..16:38
yvlin any case16:38
yvlI fetched the CTE skill DB16:39
yvlor at least available / interesting records16:39
yvlif stats interest you...16:39
yvlmin skills per course - 3316:39
yvlmax - 35316:39
yvlavg - 9016:39
yvl22.7k unique skills16:40
yvl500 courses16:40
yvl(in 16 clusters, 728 occupations)16:40
th1aIt is big...16:40
yvland 75 pathways :D16:40
yvloh, and I pushed "to trunk", as Alan calls it:
aelknerthanks yvl!16:42
th1ayvl:  Well, is there an issue with hierarchy or anything else essential missing from the data model?16:42
* yvl does not know16:42
yvlIf I knew, it wouldn't be missing :D16:43
th1aDoes someone else?  One way or another?16:43
th1aOK yvl.16:43
th1areplaceafill seemed to think so?16:43
yvlI thought of checking by writing the importers16:43
th1aOr something?16:43
th1aSomething blocking the gradebook?16:43
yvlhence the downloaded CTE16:43
th1aCan't do some kind of groups?16:43
th1aTertiary navigation... ?16:44
replaceafillwe were missing the hierarchy to do the skills gradebook?16:44
yvlwell, more like we were missing...16:44
yvlsection skills, global skillset container and deployed skillsets to courses16:45
yvlthe hierarchy is for reports, and people browsing16:45
th1aBut are no longer missing?16:45
yvlbut are no longer missing.16:45
th1aOK, so basically, we need to have all three of you charging forward on CanDo this week.16:46
* yvl didn't write security declarations, because it's easier to write them when doing views16:46
th1ayvl and aelkner need to divide up importing/ttw adding.16:46
th1aI don't think there is any way around doing those in parallel at this point.16:46
th1aWe're in danger of falling seriously behind.16:47
th1aI'll let yvl decide how to split that up, but we need to get aelkner going.16:47
th1aDid you look at the new CanDo data model aelkner?16:47
aelkneryvl, did you say you already did the import?16:47
yvlno, I said I was going to do that16:48
yvlthen I got sick16:48
aelknerth1a, i missed a couple of days sick last week, so no16:48
aelknerso i can do the import then16:48
replaceafilli have a question for yvl16:49
th1aWell, it just depends on who is doing the import and who is doing ttw.16:49
aelkneri just have to catch up to the code16:49
* yvl is listening16:49
replaceafillyvl, would it be possible to write a skill gradebook prototype as we did for projects?16:49
aelknerwell, i think you wanted me to do the import because i already have been in core16:49
replaceafillyvl, i mean, with your current changes?16:49
replaceafillyvl, or should i wait for importing/ttw capabilities?16:49
yvlI could add a small script to populate with whatever16:51
replaceafilli mean, projects were kind of easy, because they mapped very well to the gradebook's structure16:51
yvlthis maps also16:51
yvlbut there are sharp edges16:51
th1areplaceafill can work on ajax for a week.16:51
replaceafillth1a, +116:51
yvlbasically you have to be carefull with editing worksheets16:51
yvlas they won't let you, because they're shared for the course16:51
yvland so on and so forth16:51
yvlok, so aelkner is doing the importer,16:52
* yvl is doing ttw, whatever that is16:52
* replaceafill is doing the gradebook for genericworksheet16:53
yvlaelkner, once you have the format figured out16:53
th1ayvl:  We have to be able to create skills through the web.16:53
aelkneryvl, so the data model is pretty solid now, rght?16:53
yvlI can make a huge (or medium) sample data, populated from CTE16:53
aelkneri mean, you don't still have classes to add or anything16:53
yvlaelkner I should hope so16:53
yvlth1a, OK16:54
replaceafillyvl, what's a SpecificationDecoratorBase?16:55
* replaceafill is looking at the code...16:55
yvla thingy :D16:55
yvldon't look at it!16:55
yvlit's a proxy, really.16:55
yvlevil, evil, I know16:55
replaceafilllots of new stuff for me :)16:56
th1aWe may need a week of daily developer meetings to get everyone up to speed on this.16:57
aelknersounds like a good idea16:58
replaceafilli wonder why yvl doesn't like containedEvents as used in the gradebook :D16:58
th1aCan you guys do that at the regular time all week?16:58
replaceafill"# Sigh, this is not good."16:58
yvlkeep in mind, that I wrote those being a bit dizzy, so expect stupid simple bugs16:58
yvlreplaceafill, I can't remember why16:59
aelknerth1a, i can16:59
yvlI can do that, th1a16:59
* replaceafill too16:59
th1aOK, lets plan on that.  I'll be driving to Maine tomorrow morning you'll have to play nice on your own.17:00
aelknerwe don't know how to play nice :)17:00
yvlyes, don't you know that developers are... *animals*17:00
aelknerbut seriously, daily meetings, at least this first week will be very helpful17:01
aelkneri don't even know what to ask yet, but tomorrow i will have something17:01
th1aaelkner's assignment is lots of questions.17:01
aelknerth1a, before you go to Maine, i could ask you:17:02
aelknerwhat is the user story for the importer task17:02
aelknerare we talking the comps?17:02
aelkneror are they called skills now?17:02
th1aWhat else would we be talking about?17:02
aelknerwell, after comps are established, we have course comps, assigned comps, etc17:03
th1aEverything has to be imported eventually.17:03
aelkneri don't know, i have to get my head around the concepts anew17:03
aelknerwell, the comps themselves are a starting point17:04
th1aBut obviously the task needs to be broken down in a sane way.17:04
aelknernever mind, i know i can start with the global comps17:04
th1aI have no non-obvious ideas about this task.17:06
aelknerso replaceafill, yvl pushed his branch to a trunk, so can you start merging to that as it is possible?17:06
aelknerbtw, do we need something added to launchpad to allow: bzr branch lp:schooltool.cando?17:07
aelknerright now the branch instructions include the schooltool-owners part17:07
replaceafillaelkner, i'm not sure about that, it would make the trunk dependable on my gradebook branch17:07
yvlyes, but I doubt we'll be doing that this month17:07
aelknernp, just curious17:07
yvloh, good point replaceafill17:07
replaceafilli'd rather to finish the skill gradebook first17:08
aelknersure, that why i asked17:08
replaceafillhaving both gradebooks will give us the genericworksheet changes for example17:08
replaceafillat that point i think it may be safe to merge17:09
aelkneryvl, i did grok your changes to schooltool.gradebook trunk, interesting17:09
replaceafilland i think you can work without my changes on your tasks, right?17:09
aelkneryou added some new classes and changed the way Activities was sub-classed17:09
yvlI think it needs updated gradebook17:09
aelknerreplaceafill, yes, i don't need the gradebook changes to do the import task17:10
replaceafillaelkner, kk17:10
th1aOK, so you know what you're doing yvl?17:14
th1aNext, that is?17:14
yvlttw creation17:15
th1aI have no non-obvious ideas about this.17:15
th1aYou might want to limit the scope of it on the first pass.17:15
th1aMaybe to hierarchical systems.17:15
yvlstart with the obvious ;)17:15
yvlI think creating skills / skillsets and assigning them to courses is good enough17:16
yvlwho cares about hierarchy17:16
yvl(for now)17:16
th1aBasically we can assume that people with complex cases will need to import.17:16
th1aOK.  Yes, simple and clean ttw is best at this point.17:16
aelkneri'm bac17:17
th1aOK.  yvl is set...17:18
th1aThanks yvl.17:18
aelknerare we calling comps skills from now on?17:18
th1areplaceafill:  Anything else to note?17:18
th1acomps are skills.17:18
th1aWe discussed that in VA.17:19
replaceafillth1a, yes, just want your opinion on something17:19
replaceafilli removed the tooltips, and put the skill info above the third-nav17:19
th1aDid you try making it float above the header?17:19
replaceafillth1a, not yet, just wanted your opinion on this option17:20
th1aIt works, and we'll probably end up keeping something close to it.17:20
replaceafillah ok17:21
replaceafillth1a, also during the week i realized that the gradebook doesn't store "invalid" scores17:21
replaceafillfor a long time i thought it did17:21
th1aI wish I could think of something more clever though.17:21
th1aI think it should.17:22
replaceafillbut it's an illusion :(17:22
replaceafillif you set an invalid value17:22
replaceafillit gets displayed on refresh17:22
replaceafillbut not really stored17:22
replaceafillit's gone after a second refresh17:22
replaceafillso i'll take a look at that17:22
th1aOh, that's about the worst case scenario.17:23
replaceafillth1a, i think those are my only questions today17:23
replaceafillworked on some bugs too, but that's less important :)17:23
th1aOK.  Thanks replaceafill.17:24
th1aaelkner:  Anything else from you?17:25
aelknerso, having missed the two days sick, i only got to do the report sheets export17:25
aelkneri can show you what i have now, and we can discuss17:25
aelkneror we could do that later17:25
th1aWe could do it right after the meeting.17:26
aelknerthere aren't any tests for it, nor for the much older gradebook export17:26
aelkneradding them takes time setting up test infrastructure17:26
aelknerif i added tests for the new one, i might as well do the same for the old one17:26
aelknerbut that's all your call17:26
aelkneri could wait until cando is more stable17:27
th1aLet's talk about that later.17:27
aelkneri still also have a couple small tasks form the import changes17:28
aelkneri need bad data tests for Courses (the new attributes) and FlatSectionsTable17:28
aelknerwe can talk about all that after the meeting17:28
aelknermenesis, i did want to ask you17:28
aelknersince i'm pretty much done the importer changes (1 more day to ad tests)17:29
aelknerare we going to release this?17:29
aelkneri haven't merged with trunk yet, should i hold off?17:29
aelknerth1a, i don't see why not to release that i did, it will help save time later i think17:30
th1aAll the importer changes?17:30
th1aIt is too late for that much of a change.17:31
aelknerah, yes, Teachers and Students import is already in trunk17:31
aelknerthe new Courses attributes and FlatSectionsTable sheet is not in trunk17:31
th1aWhat is in "trunk" and released are different questions.17:32
aelknerwell, that's why i ask17:32
th1aaelkner:  You never really know or care what has been released.17:32
aelknerit depends on when menesis merges trunk to the release branch17:32
th1aAnyhow, menesis appears not to be around.17:33
aelknerare you saying i shouldn't worry about it?17:33
aelkneri'm trying to help, but perhaps if i just add to CHANGES.txt, that's enough17:33
th1aWell, you should either not worry about it or completely worry about.17:34
th1aAnd I don't think you want to completely worry about it.17:34
aelknercertainly not, i just caught you discussing what was going to be released17:34
aelknerand i ddn't want to have a half-baked update to the whole thing released17:35
aelknerbecause of the timing of the merges17:35
aelknerthat's why i haven't merged to trunk yet17:35
th1aI think we discussed this all last week anyhow.17:35
aelknerlast week we agreed to discuss today17:35
aelknerbut menesis is not here atm, so it can wait17:35
th1aThat was pretty much to humor you aelkner.17:36
th1aOK, so I was working on a short statement of our roadmap at this point.17:36
th1aLet's take a quick look at that before wrapping up.17:37
th1aCurrent Release17:37
th1aFlesh out and fix Flourish.17:37
th1aOctober Release17:37
th1aCanDo -- competency, standards or outcome based assessment17:37
th1aStrengthen and harmonize Gradebook/Journal/CanDo gradebooks (async)17:37
th1aReport styles17:37
th1a2013 Features17:37
th1aParent access17:37
th1aAlso, with Outside Funding17:38
th1aMulti-school aggregation17:38
th1aCloud story17:38
th1aAny of that surprising or missing anything obvious?17:39
yvllooks ok at the first glance17:39
th1aOK.  That'll do it for now then.  See you guys Wednesday.17:41
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:41
replaceafillthanks everybody17:41
th1aaelkner:  Let's reconvene at 11:00.17:41
aelknerth1a, ok17:41
yvlthanks guys17:41
aelknerreplaceafill, yvl, cya guys tomorrow, same time, same bat channel?17:41
replaceafillaelkner, see you tomorrow :)17:42
aelknercool, cya then17:42
yvlsee you guys soon :)17:42
aelknerso glad it's so soon :)17:43
aelknerwe missed you yvl17:43
th1aaelkner:  OK, I'm back.18:04
aelkneras manager:
aelknerthe Report Sheets link gives you the export18:05
aelknerlet's look at the file together18:05
aelkneri used the term title for the sheet name18:06
aelknersince the term is fixed, the section id is enough to identify the section18:06
aelknerthe student column is obvious18:07
aelknerno matter what is deployed, the Absent and Tardy columns come first18:07
aelknerthen each deployed activity is a column18:07
aelkneri wasn't sure what to do for the column heading18:07
th1aI'm dubious about not explicitly exporting the section id, although I might have let you talk me out of it once before.18:08
th1aIt means you can't re-sort this.18:08
th1aI'd say your header works unless someone says otherwise.18:09
aelknerin the report card, the hading for the activities is just the activity title18:10
aelkneri just checked18:10
aelknerbut we have more room in the xls file18:10
aelknerbut you're saying, keep the sheet name / activity name, right?18:11
th1aUh... are you suggesting something different?18:11
aelkneri was just presenting you with the options18:11
th1aWe have to specify which sheet it is coming from in this case.18:12
aelknerwe can do it like the report and only show the activity title18:12
th1aAside from the fact that it wouldn't work, which is presumably why you didn't do that in the first place.  ;-)18:12
aelknerthe question is, would they have the same activity titile in two deployed sheets?18:12
aelknerand if that were a problem, wouldn't the current report have had that problem?18:13
th1aWe don't need to spend time fishing for incorrect implementations at this point, aelkner.18:13
aelknerin the report, there wasn't room, and we give them the option in the layout of overriding the heading as well18:13
aelknerin this case, there is no layout, so that's why i decided to go with sheet title / activity title18:14
th1aWe don't need to have conversations about mistakes we might have made but didn't.18:14
aelknerwhat mistake, i didn't mention any18:14
aelknerwhatever you decide is right, i just wanted you to decide18:15
aelknerit wold be great if you said that it was fine in the export, but it would also be ok if you wanted it changed18:15
th1aaelkner:  We don't have to discuss obvious mistakes that you might have made but correctly avoided, like not specifying the report sheets in the headers.18:16
th1aIt is fine.18:16
aelknerok, moving on18:16
aelknerabout the section id thing you mentioned18:16
aelknerare you saying, it would be better to fill in all section id cells, even as they aren't changing within a section?18:17
th1aYes, so you can sort without losing all the data.18:17
aelkneras for convincing you one way or another, i wasn't convinced myself whether to fill in on export18:18
aelkneri don't fill, for instance, in the FlatSectionsTable importer18:18
aelknerit's easy enough to do18:18
aelkneri just took the decision not to as it made the export match the import18:19
th1aIt is nice if you don't have to fill every line for import, but every line should be filled for export.18:19
th1aOtherwise sorting destroys the whole thing irretrievably.18:19
aelknermakes sense18:20
aelkneri hadn't thought about someone wanting to sort, but we could allow for that18:20
* th1a has to go kill a fly...18:21
aelknerso another thing that came up as i did this was the fact of journal dependency18:22
aelknerif we have journal data in the report, then the report needs that plug-in18:22
aelknerin theory, i could have the report not have the columns if the plug-in is not installed18:23
* th1a back18:24
th1aI guess that's necessary aelkner.18:24
aelknerthe way the report card and student detail handles attendance18:26
aelkneris to present the cells, i.e., the columns for attendance data18:27
aelknerbut just show have empty cells if no journal plug-in is installed18:27
th1aThat's fine.18:28
aelknerperhaps we should do the same for the export, keep the columns there even if plug-in not present?18:28
aelknerah, ok, in that case, it already works as it should18:29
aelkneri just need to move the registration out of the has journal block in the config18:29
th1aThank you for once again presenting an inferior option you already rejected.18:29
aelknerit's not for you :)18:30
aelknerit's for my peace of mind to have you sign off on things18:30
th1aI mean, it is fine as long as whatever you're doing is not creating a cross-dependency or throwing a traceback.18:30
th1aI'm just being crabby.18:31
aelknerthat's ok18:31
aelkneri'm just being me :)18:31
aelknerbtw, the term title is not enough to id the term18:32
aelknerso perhaps the sheet name should be the term id?18:32
aelkneror do we want a row at the top, i hate having those if not necessary18:32
th1aI'd think so.18:32
th1aThe id should be the sheet title.18:33
th1aPerhaps make year id + term id the file name.18:33
aelknerah, yes, that reminds me18:33
th1a+ "report_sheets"18:33
aelknerthere's no reason, and it would be easy to do, to not allow the report to be requested by year18:34
aelkneri figured each term within the result would be a sheet18:34
aelknerin the case of the term request, there would only be one18:34
aelknerwhat do you think?18:34
th1aI guess that makes sense.18:35
aelknerok, i'll do that18:35
aelkneras for the filename18:35
aelknerreport_sheets_2012.xls for the whole year one18:36
aelknerreport_sheets_2012_fall.xls for the specific term one18:36
aelknerso, i don't want to ask you any more questions because that only gives me more to do :)18:37
aelknerbut i'll be sure to squeeze the report sheets export changes into trunk first18:38
th1aSounds good.18:38
aelkneri already pushed what i did there, so depending on when menesis decided to merge, he'll get that18:38
aelknersee, if he merges now, then releases, he'll get what i already did, but ot the improvements we just discussed18:39
aelknerthat's why i ask about when someone is merging, so i know how important it is to fix something18:39
aelkneri can't guess at when he is going to type bzr merge and bzr push commands into his keyboard18:40
aelknerso it was too bad he was't there today18:41
aelknerbut i'll guess the following:18:41
th1aIt doesn't actually effect anything you're doing aelkner.18:41
th1aFinish the report sheet export asap, move onto CanDo.18:41
aelknerand merge the Courses, FlatSectionsTable changes to trunk?18:42
aelkneralso, the stests that i created are there in my branch18:42
aelkneryou know, i took it upon myself to rewrite the ftests as stests18:43
aelknerbecause it only took a day18:43
th1aThank you aelkner ;-)18:43
aelknerok, i get the feeling that you're saying i can't piss anybody off by merging to trunk whenever18:43
aelkneri'll stop asking you to think about it :)18:44
aelknerjust trying to avoid the wrath of menesis18:44
th1aThe import stuff won't be released for six months and shouldn't interfere with anything else anyhow.18:44
aelknercando needs the import stuff, so are they going to use a non-released version of core?18:45
aelknersorry if that's a stupid question, i might have missed that decision18:46
aelkneror perhaps it's obvious, so no decision was necessary :)18:46
menesiscan't you wait two days with that branch not merged?18:46
th1aIt could go either way.  It is just a question of PPA vs Ubuntu Universe.18:46
th1aWhat menesis said is the point, aelkner.18:47
th1aWe're not talking about a long delay either way.18:47
menesisyou are talking half an hour about that, and you talked the last meeting18:47
menesisyou finished a feature, it is in a published branch18:47
menesisand that's all18:47
menesisif you need that branch in cando, change cando buildout.cfg to develop ../schooltool-my-importer18:48
aelknerlook, it's not fair to say i should know when to merge to trunk or not18:48
aelknerthe default case is: ALWAYS MERGE TO TRUNK18:49
aelknerif you want me to hold off, that's a very specal case18:49
aelknerit you need to tell me so18:49
menesisyes, feature freeze is a very special case18:49
menesisI can handle making a release from whatever revision I want18:50
aelknerright, so i just need a date to fo the merge, and i will stop asking18:50
menesisit is only a little annoyance if you merge to trunk18:50
th1aYes, actually the annoyance is it doesn't really matter that much one way or another.18:50
aelknerah, i see, you see the option of merging with trunk from an older revision18:50
th1aSo it is REALLY not worth this much discussion.18:51
aelknerlike i said, if you don't explicitly ask me not to merge to trunk18:51
aelknerand also give me date when i finally may do so18:51
aelkneri will end dong it18:52
th1aRegardless you don't really need a date.18:52
aelknerif that's ok, i'll stop asking18:52
th1aThat doesn't change anything you would do up to that point.18:52
menesisit does not need any discussion18:52
aelknerwhat i do up t this point is always merge to trunk without asking anyone18:52
menesisother than "is it going into this release"18:52
menesisand the answer was no18:52
menesisI am sorry I was not able to do a release last week18:53
menesisif I did you could have merged without problem18:53
menesisbut I asked to hold off a little18:53
aelknerright, so i was asking for an update, as we agreed18:53
aelknercould you just email me when it's ok to merge?18:54
menesisthere is a launchpad feature for that18:54
menesiscalled merge requests18:54
aelknerwe don't use that anymore18:54
aelknersince last summer, we have been doing the trunk merges ouselves18:55
aelknerit saves so much time18:55
* replaceafill uses merge request when i want something checked by someone else ;)18:55
aelknerthat's a rare case18:55
replaceafillnot for me :)18:55
th1aWell, you can do it around releases.18:55
aelkneri haven't needed anyone to check anything for a while18:55
th1aI don't understand why we're still talking about this.18:56
menesisaelkner: please, can we end this discussion18:56
th1aIn summary, with a distributed version control system, you can do pretty much whatever you want and it can be fixed in less time than we have been talking about it here.18:56
aelkneri know, process is a dirty word :(18:57
*** ignas has quit IRC19:28
*** th1a has quit IRC20:42
*** menesis has quit IRC20:51
*** th1a has joined #schooltool21:21
replaceafillth1a, zyt?21:48
*** paulproteus has quit IRC22:18
*** paulproteus has joined #schooltool22:19
*** th1a has quit IRC22:44
*** menesis has joined #schooltool22:58
*** menesis has quit IRC23:01
*** menesis has joined #schooltool23:03
*** menesis has quit IRC23:09
*** menesis has joined #schooltool23:10

Generated by 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!