IRC log of #schooltool for Wednesday, 2011-09-28

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th1ahi replaceafill, aelkner_, yvl, menesis.16:32
replaceafillgood morning/afternoon16:32
th1aOK, let's discuss release plan B.16:32
yvlmorning guys16:33
th1aI have a feeling we're not going to have flourish in Oneiric.16:33
th1aAnd let me state from the beginning I'm not blaming menesis for this, and I wouldn't have done anything differently.16:33
yvlso plan B is to have a bleeding edge PPA16:34
th1amenesis:  Just in terms of getting packages into Ubuntu, do you think it is still possible to get flourish into Oneiric?16:34
yvland a stable version in Oneiric?16:34
th1aPlan B is to have a stable version in Oneiric and a stable version in the PPA, essentially.16:34
th1aAnd "release" in November.16:35
menesisI was going to write an email explaining why we don't want flourish in oneiric and how we work next16:35
menesisbut as th1a said16:35
menesiswe have a stable version in oneiric16:36
menesisit is there.16:36
menesisand we put our flourish package in the ppa16:37
menesisseveral frequent releases16:37
th1aOne question I have now is how much work would it be to put flourish in a separate PPA for the last several Ubuntu releases?16:37
th1aThat might make it a lot easier to get testing.16:37
menesisand polish until we are ready to call this 2.016:38
menesisand then we have it in the next LTS tested and translated16:38
th1aWe're not going to sit around polishing it though.16:38
th1aIt should go into Oneiric+1 universe in November.16:39
menesisof course16:39
th1aWe'll release and roll out the new website & docs in November.16:40
menesisone of my points why a 2.0 is not ready is website and docs16:40
menesisbut I think it is possible to do this by November16:41
menesisto answer your earlier questions,16:41
menesis1. no, it is way too late (1.5 months) to push such a big change to Oneiric.16:42
menesis2. it is possible to put flourish packages in a separate PPA16:42
menesisat least to natty, it is easy16:43
menesisdon't know what's missing from lucid, but I can put additional zope packages in the PPA as well16:44
menesisthe /dev ppa16:44
th1aOK.  I'd like to have flourish for natty available in a PPA by Oct. 13.16:44
th1aAnd then in November, our website will be encouraging people to use the PPA (flourish) version.16:45
menesisremember that servers running schooltool are still on lucid, and they get everything from the ppa16:46
menesiseven with natty, everything is in ubuntu. but updates are only in the ppa16:46
th1aAny other questions about this right now.16:49
menesisnot from me. I am ready for plan B.16:50
replaceafilljust want to say, and maybe i'm not aware of the real issues, but for some reason this makes me feel sad :(16:50
replaceafilli won't say more though :)16:50
th1aOne thing... if we're six weeks too late on getting this in, perhaps you could have told me that six weeks ago.  ;-)16:50
th1aRealistically, we should probably always release a month *after* Ubuntu to ensure getting in the next one.16:51
th1aThe thing is, schools weren't really going to be upgrading to Oneiric in the middle of the school year anyhow.16:52
th1aSo PRACTICALLY it isn't a big deal.16:53
menesisI lost hope only two weeks ago. not six.16:53
th1aI need to talk to Critical Links now actually.  That's probably the biggest point.16:53
* th1a needs menesis to be more productively pessimistic.16:54
yvl"Students in Australia attend school for 200 days a year. Their school year lasts from late January to mid December."16:54
yvljust FYI16:54
th1aSo November is still fine for them!16:54
yvlnad Brazil I think16:55
th1aOctober (and April) are spring and fall everywhere, right?16:55
th1aSo most schools are in session for both.16:55
th1aWhich is good.16:56
menesisnot all regions have spring or fall16:56
menesisthey have rain and dry seasons :)16:56
replaceafillwe call it winter and summer :)16:56
th1aOK.  Moving on...16:57
th1amenesis:  What have you been up to?16:57
yvl(umm, in Australia it does start in Jan, I think)16:57
menesisI have worked tirelessly on Monday, so yesterday/today was slow16:58
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menesisI was looking at the mentioned intervention failure, but only managed to do a small workaround16:59
menesisand I continue to hunt for non-translatable strings16:59
th1aShould aelkner_ be doing something else on that intervention bug?17:00
menesisalso made pages have a <title>, but this was written last week17:00
aelkner_i was going to look at that, menesis17:00
menesisI don't plan to look more at that intervention widget17:00
aelkner_the intervention bug, that s17:00
menesisbut as I written somewhere, it works bad when there are errors in the form17:01
aelkner_i saw your suggestion, so ill look into it17:01
menesisit is a mix of formlib and z3c widgets17:01
aelkner_and those areas are always way more trouble than they are worth!17:02
menesiswould be better to port old skin views to z3c.form and only have one proper widget17:02
th1aFor the most part I don't want menesis banging his head on these kinds of bugs -- they need to be handed off to other developers.17:02
aelkner_yes, i would expect that17:02
aelkner_but thanks for your analysis up to now menesis17:03
menesisI looked into it only because others could not reproduce the bug17:03
th1aSo far today I've encouraged menesis to be more pessimistic and do less work.17:03
menesisbut I am fixing bugs as well! ;)17:04
th1aI know menesis!17:04
th1aHow's the translation situation look menesis/replaceafill?17:06
replaceafillon my part:17:07
replaceafilli finished the es-sv translations for the plugins17:07
replaceafillset them up at
menesissome things in left sidebar are not translatable.17:08
replaceafilland noticed some issues in the gradebook/journal17:08
replaceafilli noticed the same17:08
replaceafillalso, tertiary navigation for add activity17:08
menesisthere are many templates that do not have i18n:domain, but those are easy to fix, was doing that before the meeting17:09
replaceafillmenesis i have a question for you17:09
replaceafillwould it be ok to translate the .po files directly in the locales directories17:09
replaceafillso i don't need to go to rossetta?17:09
replaceafillcool, thanks17:10
menesisin rosetta it is explained that you can download, translate, and upload the po file17:11
menesisbut we can edit the .po in place17:11
menesisthat's what I was doing17:11
replaceafillyes, it's easier for debugging17:11
replaceafilli wasnt :(17:11
replaceafilli was downloading every change from rosetta :D17:11
replaceafillkind of slow process, getting the mail, putting the file, etc17:11
menesisfind problematic place, fix it, make extract-translations; msgmerge lt.po schooltool.pot; msgfmt lt.po; restart, see changes17:12
replaceafillah ok, will follow  that pattern17:13
menesisbut of course you have to commit the updated file17:13
menesisit will be imported into rosetta17:13
replaceafilland of course i had the typical issues when translating17:14
replaceafillgender issues17:14
replaceafillstrings with ${deploy-sheet} in the middle!17:14
replaceafillwhere ${deploy-sheet} is a link :D17:15
th1aWhat's the better way to do that?17:15
th1aChange the interface?17:15
replaceafilli thought *that* was the better way17:16
replaceafilldid you notice those menesis?17:16
replaceafillthere are like 2 or 3 in the gradebook17:16
replaceafillfrom the "What is This?" sections17:16
menesiswhat's wrong with ${deploy-sheet}?17:16
replaceafillnothing, it just feels funny17:17
replaceafillth1a i think i'll finish translating core today17:18
th1areplaceafill:  OK.17:18
menesisreplaceafill: we should write down problematic strings somewhere17:18
replaceafillgood idea17:19
menesisbecause I am having problems, too.17:20
replaceafilllike "'Minimum' passing score"17:20
replaceafillgave me trouble in spanish17:20
menesisfor example with the recent "${person}'s" sidebar title17:20
replaceafillah! true!17:20
th1aDo we need something different there entirely?17:21
menesisor even better with sections: Math (1)'s17:21
th1aWhat's the more common way to do possessives?17:22
th1aOutside English...17:22
aelkner_use of 'of'17:23
aelkner_and reversing the word order17:23
th1aShould we just put the name or title there and hope the possessive meaning can be inferred?17:24
replaceafillth1a that's what i did in the spanish version17:24
replaceafillsince "De ${section}" doesnt make too much sense17:25
th1aIt would be nice to keep it in English.  Can we do that without confusing translators?17:25
yvlthere are many options, though not sure if they're any good17:25
yvllike "Section ${section}"17:25
yvlor "${section} : "17:25
yvljust my two cents17:26
menesisI don't like the title in the menu heading17:26
yvl(or "Section:" without the ${section})17:26
th1aWe need to make it clear that, for example, the link is to the section's calendar, not the user's calendar.17:27
yvlor even two-liner:17:28
yvlblack, bold "Section"17:28
yvlgray, thing "${section}"17:28
th1aI'm not following that yvl.17:29
th1aFor example?17:29
th1aWell, we'd better move on...17:30
th1aThanks menesis.17:31
menesisTo see my point, look at this screenshot of section page
th1aAnything else replaceafill?17:31
replaceafillth1a no, i'm done17:31
menesisbut the it is the title repeated in the content div are less needed than the one in sidebar17:32
th1amenesis:  Yes.17:32
th1aThanks replaceafill.17:33
yvlI got a bit stuck these two days17:33
yvlmost of the problems are solved17:34
yvlthe one I'm working now is supporting chromium / firefox / html_unit17:34
th1aPerhaps you and replaceafill could meet tomorrow to get him going on this?17:35
yvlthey kind of give different outputs in some cases17:35
yvlhere's the thing17:35
yvlthree drivers vary somewhat17:35
yvlthat either:17:35
yvlneeds to be solved17:35
yvlor one driver should be picked17:36
yvland others forgotten17:36
th1a(I'm only excluding aelkner_ because I suspect a bleeding edge functional testing framework will drive him crazy(ier))17:36
yvl( I assumed that much :) )17:36
th1aProbably pick one.17:36
yvlI knew you'd say that17:36
aelkner_and i appreciate it17:36
yvland wich one?17:37
yvland why that one?17:37
* yvl is not attacking th1a or anything - it's just the questions that bother me a lot17:37
th1aIt seems like less work to pick one.17:37
yvlfirefox;  works and ships with Ubuntu17:37
yvlbut is slow as hell17:38
yvlchromium - fast, but not default in ubuntu17:38
replaceafillslower than our old ftests? ;)17:38
yvlfirefox?... you bet!17:38
aelkner_i only use firefox if that means anything17:38
replaceafilli thought anything would be faster than our old ftests :D17:38
th1aDoes the differences in drivers reflect actual differences in the browsers as a user would see, or just how they work with selenium?17:39
yvldon't get your hopes up with tests running faster17:39
yvlth1a - both17:39
yvloh, and also the output we compare in tests17:39
yvlthing is, the differences are quite little17:39
yvlI think I can solve it17:39
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yvlbut can't give an estimate17:40
yvlthere's just a list of things to try out17:40
yvl(btw, html_unit is fastest, but runs on emulated browser and is not visual)17:40
th1aI'd pick Chromium or Firefox.17:41
th1aAnd personally I've not used Firefox in years...17:41
th1aI'd pick one and if we really want to we can support the second later on, right?17:42
yvlbut people with stock Ubuntu may do that17:42
yvlI'd like to ask some time to thing and try working this out17:42
aelkner_firefox has firebug, so i wouldn't use anything else17:42
th1aYes... my personal taste shouldn't be the deciding factor.17:42
yvland resort to a single browser when the rest of it fails17:42
yvlaelkner_, chromium has some nice built-in stuff too17:42
yvlbut your point is valid17:43
th1aRealistically, it should be Firefox unless it is so much slower it messes with our productivity.17:43
yvlif I had to pick, I'd pick chromium because it's almost twice as fast on my machine17:43
th1aThat's a lot.17:43
yvlthat's why I want to try to make them all work17:44
yvlon the same tests17:44
replaceafilli'd pick firefox because that's what ubuntu users have by  default17:44
th1aAll things being equal, I'd take firefox, but half as fast is a lot.17:44
replaceafillbut users dont run tests17:44
yvlI'm glad you see why I'm puzzled17:45
th1aA lot of OUR time!17:45
replaceafilland we can pick packages and specific tests17:45
replaceafillth1a but we can select a specific test to run17:45
replaceafilllike bin/test -t foo.txt17:45
th1aSo... 30 seconds vs. 1 minute?17:45
replaceafillwe don't have to run the whole suit17:45
th1aTimes... thirty times a day?17:46
aelkner_suit and suite are very different things :)17:46
replaceafillaelkner_ sorry17:46
replaceafillmissed the e ;)17:46
aelkner_and i got SO confused!17:46
th1aWe're used to it aelkner_.17:47
replaceafillanyway, that's just my 2 cents17:47
aelkner_but i'd like to try on a test suit on of these days, perhaps with a matching hat17:47
yvlfrankly, I'd really like to keep hammering.17:47
replaceafillaelkner_ :))17:47
yvlafter the annoyances I had to go through to make them run17:47
aelkner_i vote for yvl getting firefox to work better :)17:47
yvlit just seems not that difficult now17:48
yvlthen again - I'm working on this few weeks now17:48
yvlbut you've no idea how crazy these people are17:48
th1aMy concern is that not only will getting both running take longer now, it may be costly in the long run.17:48
yvla very valid concern!17:49
th1aConstant fiddling.17:49
yvlthen again - it's a bet17:49
th1aThe speed issue is not trivial.17:49
yvlI bet that we'll save more time while writing tests than fiddling for two browser support17:49
th1aWell, use your judgement.17:50
th1aAre we done then?17:50
th1aOh, replaceafill & yvl, want to meet tomorrow?17:50
yvlwell, the code is out there17:51
yvlI can finish form filler tomorrow....17:51
yvlwe may meet, replaceafill, if you want17:52
replaceafillmaybe i should take a current test and port it?17:52
yvlif you find a good one17:53
replaceafilllike gradebook_management.txt!!!17:53
yvla good one :D17:53
yvlbut it has a lot of dependencies17:53
yvlmight run slow17:53
yvlthen again - a good stress-test17:53
replaceafilli think so17:54
replaceafilli'll give it a try today if i can and let you know tomorrow17:54
th1aOK.  Sounds good.17:54
th1aThanks guys!17:55
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:55
yvlthanks guys!17:55
replaceafillthanks everybody17:55
yvloh, replaceafill - a small thing to keep in mind17:55
yvlSelenium does not wait for "action" to complete17:56
yvlinstead it waits an implicit amount of time to finish a query17:56
yvllike xpath and such17:56
yvlso if you click on "Add" in one browser17:56
yvland immediately after that open a window in another browser... you get the idea17:57
yvlas in manager.query.button("add").click()17:57"/stuff")17:57
yvlon stuff17:57
yvl* no stuff17:57
yvlbut manager.query.button("add").click()17:57
yvlprint manager.query.xpath("title")17:57
yvland there you go17:57
yvlin buildout.cfg17:58
yvldon't remember if I wrote about this17:58
yvlyou can set17:58
yvlselenium.implicit_wait = 517:58
yvlor something17:58
yvlneed to fine-tune to your machine17:58
replaceafillah, no i think you didnt17:58
replaceafillah ok17:58
replaceafillyvl question17:58
replaceafillwhere can i find the buildout options for the selenium part?17:59
replaceafillare they the same as the google-code driver page17:59
yvlthey're ours and undocumented17:59
replaceafillah ok17:59
replaceafillin the recipe?18:00
yvlyou can try looking at the source of schooltool.devtools18:00
replaceafillah ok18:00
yvlbut it's not very... clear18:00
replaceafillwill do18:00
replaceafillnp, i was just wondering about that18:00
yvlif it was documented it would be really easy to use ;)18:02
yvlwell... good luck to you!18:02
yvlsee you tomorrow ;)18:02
replaceafillbye yvl18:02
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replaceafillth1a do you mind if i start with the selenium task today? and put translations aside for a moment?18:22
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replaceafilli'd like to change to a new activity18:22
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* replaceafill just ported his first ftest to stest19:42
th1aHow's it look?19:42
replaceafillit's a small one though, i'm going to try the chrome driver19:43
replaceafillto see it twice faster ;)19:43
th1aYeah... I wonder if that's mostly startup time.19:44
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th1aaelkner_: ayt?21:05
replaceafilllol, i was running chromium :D21:16
replaceafillah :( the firefox driver is broken21:16
th1aOh, chromium not chrome?21:28
replaceafillit's called chromium in ubuntu21:30
th1areplaceafill:  I'm confused.  Does it work?21:47
replaceafillyes, but only with the chromium driver21:48
th1aOh, there are different drivers.  I see.21:51
replaceafillchromium, firefox and html_unit21:51
replaceafillyvl's current branch works well with chromium21:51
replaceafillit seems like firefox sends the keys in a wrong way21:52
replaceafilli'm downloading selenium-server to test html_unit21:52
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