IRC log of #schooltool for Thursday, 2011-01-13

*** replaceafill has quit IRC01:16
*** alga has quit IRC02:08
*** alga has joined #schooltool03:26
*** alga has quit IRC03:50
*** replaceafill has joined #schooltool04:58
*** replaceafill has quit IRC07:27
aelkneryvl, ayt?09:09
*** alga has joined #schooltool12:27
*** alga has quit IRC14:15
*** menesis has joined #schooltool14:32
*** menesis has quit IRC14:51
*** menesis has joined #schooltool14:55
*** alga has joined #schooltool15:34
*** menesis has quit IRC15:42
*** replaceafill has joined #schooltool15:42
*** menesis has joined #schooltool15:43
*** menesis has quit IRC15:43
*** menesis has joined #schooltool16:08
replaceafilla pdb call in a view!!!18:52
algaa spanner in the works?19:00
replaceafillit seems like the view is not used in the gradebook anymore. fortunately ;)19:01
replaceafillth1a, aelkner: what's a 'Maximum passing score'?19:48
replaceafillin my head there's only the idea of 'you need B to pass this course'...19:48
replaceafillwhich i think B is the minimum to pass?19:49
th1aIf you have a 1-5 scoring system where 1 is best.19:49
th1aThis was a real use case, btw.19:49
replaceafilllike an inverted scale?19:50
replaceafillweird :P19:50
th1aLike "we're #1!"19:52
aelknerth1a, remember, it wasw needed for reverse-order score systems19:55
aelknerzambia wanted it for some reason, but we lost touch with them, so we don'[t see them using it19:56
replaceafillaelkner, could you take a look at
replaceafillline 2219:57
replaceafillthat's that use case, correct?19:58
replaceafillgreat, i'm going to change the minScore input name to just score20:00
replaceafillwe have a minMax value, so score can be a min or a max ;)20:00
replaceafillor passingScore20:00
aelkneror cutoff score?20:01
replaceafillah ok20:01
aelkneri'm not sure what would help the user there, th1a?20:01
th1aWait what?20:02
th1aWe're not paying by the character here.20:03
th1aIf it isn't clear we can use a whole phrase.20:03
replaceafillno, i meant the input field name attribute20:03
replaceafillnot the UI20:03
replaceafillalthough the UI makes me think that i need a decreasing score system...20:04
th1apassing score?20:04
th1aSo change menScore to passingScore?20:07
aelknerwhy do we need to change the attribute name?20:08
replaceafillaelkner, it leads me to think it's a minimum value20:08
aelknerah, ok20:08
replaceafilllike minMax, wtf?!?!20:08
replaceafillscaleType, or something...20:09
aelknerthat was a serious suggestion20:10
th1aI still don't know what :| means.20:10
replaceafilldamn, sorry! changing to explicit emoticons again20:10
aelkneryeah, i mean that one suggests you have a mouth20:11
aelknerbut no mood, what are you flat affect? :)20:11
replaceafillwhat does that value do? if you set it to Minimum or set it to Maximum?20:11
th1aPerhaps if you could make your eyes bigger with the straight mouth it would make more sense to me.20:12
th1aIs it a bool?20:12
*** menesis has quit IRC20:13
aelknerth1a, the bool, minMax refers to whether the attrubute, minimumPassingScore is a min or a max20:13
aelknerthat perhaps is a bit confusing, more informative would be the same bool, but named ascendingScores?20:14
th1aSo it should be, say isMax20:14
aelknerwhat is max?20:14
aelknerthat's the problem20:14
replaceafilli don't think we want to change the scoresystem attribute names20:14
aelknerthat sounds good20:14
replaceafilli mean, the view, we can do whatever we want20:14
aelknernot change a bit20:15
th1areplaceafill:  I thought that was the entire topic of the conversation.20:15
th1aSo we're done then?20:15
aelknerwe're talking changing attribute names for code reader friendliness20:15
replaceafillth1a, oh sorry, no, i was talking about the view20:15
replaceafillth1a, i'd be more concerned about the instructions in the form20:16
replaceafill(rolling eyes)20:16
aelknerth1a, now you're using it, do you mean wtf/wink?20:16
aelknerlike an ambiguous mood?20:17
aelknerlooks like you have food stuck on your mouth20:17
replaceafillth1a's mustache20:17
aelkneruse a napkin20:17
th1aI'd say maybe we should just add a sentence.20:17
aelknerreplaceafill, are you planning on changing the attr name?20:18
replaceafillaelkner, the minScore yes20:18
replaceafillyou mean in the view, right?20:18
th1a"If the values in the score system descend, e.g., 1 is the best score, set the value below to say 'Maximum' passing score.  Otherwise leave it a 'Minimum' passing score."20:19
th1aSomething like that.20:19
aelknerattr names are in objects, not views20:19
replaceafillaelkner, not touching the persistent objects20:19
th1aThis is the kind of form where it will usually not be used at all, and at most used once or twice, so lots of on-page explanation is fine.20:19
aelknerah, i see the issue, it's not the edit view20:19
aelknerthat view is clearer because the dropdown starts the sentence20:20
aelkneryou're talking the display/list views, right?20:20
aelkneractually, there is no edit view, i mean add view20:20
replaceafillaelkner, yes the add view for custom score systems20:22
th1aThat seems better.20:22
* th1a goes to make lunch.20:23
aelkneryeah, the lnk you posted, it shows that the sentence <Minimum> pass score <C>20:23
aelkneri thought that was clear, but perhaps a paragrah before that setting would help explain20:24
aelknerthat by choosing Maximum, you intend the score system to be reverse-order20:24
replaceafillto be honest, it still confuses my brain (sad face)20:24
*** alga has quit IRC20:25
aelknerare you not seeing the purpose or a reverse-order score system?20:25
replaceafilli mean, "Start with the highest score. Click "Add a lower score" to add scores until you have created a score with a minimum percentage of 0."20:25
replaceafill"Low Percentage"20:25
aelknergood point20:25
replaceafill"Add a lower case"20:25
replaceafillno, i see the use20:25
replaceafillbut the form leads you to think of something descending20:26
replaceafillfrom A - F20:26
aelknerlook, it's not easy to explain the idea of adding to a table20:26
replaceafillwhere A is the best with the highest score20:26
aelknerwhen that table is to be used in reverse order20:26
aelknerthe lower percentages are lower in the table, regardless of the order of their rank in pass/fail tests20:26
aelknerso as long as the user understand that they are building a table20:27
aelknerif we had a paragraph20:27
aelknerthat came after Add Lower Score20:27
replaceafilli guess that in my head, lower percentage = lover point value20:27
aelkneris does20:27
aelkner4, 3, 2, 120:28
aelkner2 is the Mad passing score20:28
aelknerthat's what the user wanted20:28
replaceafillnot in the ascending score system20:28
aelknerso 1 and 2 pass20:28
replaceafill1 - 100%20:28
replaceafill2 - 80%20:28
replaceafill3 - 60%20:28
aelknerthe case i refered to is not that20:28
aelknerit litterally is 1, 2 pass, 3, 4 fail20:29
aelknerbut 1 IS a lower score than 420:29
aelknerdid you ever play a card game where lowest score wins?20:29
aelknerit's kind of like that20:29
replaceafilllike places in a race or something20:30
aelkneryeah, a good analogy20:30
aelkneranyway, a paragrah after the Add Lower Score button but before the min/max drop-down cold say:20:31
aelknerIf you want the cuttoff score for passing to be a maximum value rather than a minimum,20:32
aelknerthen you are saying that you want the score system to go in reverse order20:32
aelknerthat's poorly stated, of course20:32
aelkneri'd suggest th1a come up with a good paragraph20:33
replaceafillhe did20:33
aelknerah, see, that's why i suggested him, he's good at that kind of stuff20:34
aelknerso, problem solved?20:34
replaceafillhhmm yeah20:34
replaceafilli'll keep adding tests (wink)20:34
aelkner\seriously, what is going on with your emoticons, did you refere to some setting in XChat-GNOME?20:35
replaceafillno man, they're manually generated (wink)20:36
aelknerwhatever (spoken with valley-girl accent)20:37
replaceafillsee?!!? more expressive20:37
replaceafillthans aelkner20:38
th1aWell... there is a whole category of things which are kind of hopeless to explain unless it happens to be thing thing you already need.20:40
th1aIf you don't need a reverse score system, trying to explain it at length is only going to confuse people.20:41
th1aAnd, on the other hand, if you have a reverse score system, and it is set up so that all you have to do is cross your fingers and follow the directions, most people won't do that anyhow.20:41
th1aIt is sort of a no-win situation, insofar as most people will just want to ask someone what to d.20:42
aelknerthat's why ATM interfaces work the best20:42
aelkneryou steer the user with a series of questions20:43
th1aIt is why you hire a vendor to set up your SIS.20:43
aelknerDo you need the score system to go in reverse order?20:43
aelknerLike at WaWa, do you want to add bacon?20:43
aelknerit's annoying when there are too many questions20:44
th1aBut the concept of reverse order is confusing, and then if you have to explain it, when 95% of people don't need it... ug.20:44
aelknerAdvanced button in preferences forms tend to work pretty well, you think?20:45
th1aAnyhow, what we have is basically ok.20:45
aelkneri agree, with the added paragraph, it's ok20:45
th1aTo improve it we'd probably need a complete re-think.20:48
replaceafillth1a, in my head, as aelkner says, just the first question, 'want it ascending or descending'20:48
replaceafillthen you show the same form but with different wording20:48
th1aThe problem with that is you start with an abstract, confusing concept that 95% of people don't need to think about.20:49
replaceafillright, then it becomes unnecessary for them20:50
aelknerit's the right way to think about it20:51
th1aIf people who need the weird case get confused, punt, have to ask and then see, "Oh, I guess it is pretty simple," then that might be the best we can do anyhow.20:51
aelknerfrom an expected value point of view, 100% of the time annoy 98% of the users20:51
aelknerthat's why i refered to the Advanced button which many find easy to use20:52
aelkneranyone who bothers to check out preferences in any app, knows that one20:52
th1aBut it isn't a more advanced case.20:52
th1aIt is just a different one.20:53
th1aIt is basic from the point of view of that user.20:53
aelknerweirdness is advanced if you accept that way of looking at it :)20:53
aelknerthe button could read 'Special settings'20:54
th1aOne of the main things which makes this application difficult is that everyone thinks what they grew up is normal and everything else is a weird edge case.20:54
th1aAnyhow, I'm fine with it at this point.20:54
replaceafillalmost 96% coverage in the gradebook.browser.gradebook module (smile)20:55
replaceafilldamn untested cancel buttons!20:56
*** menesis has joined #schooltool21:02
*** alga has joined #schooltool21:27
*** replaceafill has quit IRC23:47
*** replaceafill has joined #schooltool23:59

Generated by 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!