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| yvl | ignas, maybe you can remember | 15:21 |
|---|---|---|
| yvl | is there any reason why journal data is hooked on TimetableCalendarEvents | 15:21 |
| yvl | and not just calendar events? | 15:21 |
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| ignas | yvl, well, so I would not get new cells | 15:51 |
| ignas | for my lunch ;) | 15:51 |
| ignas | ok, sections don't have lunch | 15:51 |
| ignas | yvl, thinking... | 15:52 |
| * yvl is listening intensely | 15:53 | |
| ignas | i think it was just that timetable events were more constrained | 15:55 |
| ignas | thus required less work ;) | 15:55 |
| ignas | i mean - you can do a bunch of stuff with real events | 15:55 |
| ignas | like make them recurrent | 15:55 |
| ignas | move them around, etc. | 15:55 |
| yvl | I see | 15:56 |
| ignas | also - TimetableEvents | 15:56 |
| yvl | thanks | 15:56 |
| ignas | have an ID | 15:56 |
| ignas | that is easy to generate | 15:56 |
| ignas | timetable slot etc | 15:56 |
| ignas | so if you remove an event | 15:56 |
| ignas | and generate a new one in the same place | 15:56 |
| ignas | you can "restore" the grades | 15:56 |
| ignas | that were in that day | 15:56 |
| ignas | not so with calendar events | 15:56 |
| yvl | that one I figured out | 15:57 |
| yvl | ok, thanks a lot! | 15:57 |
| ignas | you can't say "first lesson on 2009-01-01 for section boo hoo" | 15:57 |
| ignas | which I *think* | 15:57 |
| ignas | I am doing in some place where grade key is being generated | 15:57 |
| ignas | can't recall that well :( | 15:57 |
| yvl | the point is, that you are glueing the key from some parts there | 15:58 |
| ignas | when it comes to schooltool the "i wish i did" and "i actually did" are getting more and more blurred ;) | 15:58 |
| yvl | I saw the code some time ago | 15:58 |
| yvl | (and these parts are quite predictable) | 15:58 |
| yvl | well, again, thanks | 15:58 |
| yvl | I'm planning to do some mauling on timetables, calendaring, resources and journal | 16:00 |
| ignas | hmm, yeah, I can recall wishing to have a data structure for timetable events that would allow creating simple events but only in "slots" defined by TTschema and term | 16:00 |
| ignas | which would give the structure needed by gradebook/attendance | 16:01 |
| yvl | what about... creating out of slots :) | 16:01 |
| yvl | I mean - why not? | 16:01 |
| ignas | attendance, 15 minute, 1 minute events | 16:01 |
| ignas | as in | 16:01 |
| yvl | remove the word "needed", and here you go | 16:01 |
| ignas | in one case you have a discreet grid | 16:01 |
| ignas | with few hundereds/thousands of slots | 16:01 |
| ignas | and in another case - you have millions of possible events | 16:02 |
| ignas | in random places, with overlaps etc. | 16:02 |
| yvl | but when you have two same lessons in one day | 16:02 |
| ignas | some easy features in one case (conflict resolution) become hard in the other one | 16:03 |
| yvl | journal becomes messed up anyway | 16:03 |
| ignas | not really | 16:03 |
| ignas | that case was covered and it works | 16:03 |
| yvl | okay, something else no longer works | 16:03 |
| yvl | don't remember the bug id | 16:04 |
| yvl | the point - duplicated day entries in the journal | 16:04 |
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| ignas | well, that is on purpose | 16:04 |
| ignas | you can skip lesson1 and attend lesson2 | 16:05 |
| yvl | yeah, I know | 16:05 |
| ignas | but it's broken? :) | 16:05 |
| yvl | so... if a random event was added that day | 16:05 |
| yvl | lesson3? | 16:05 |
| yvl | why not? | 16:05 |
| ignas | timetable events don | 16:05 |
| yvl | even if it's not related to an activity | 16:05 |
| ignas | 't overlap | 16:05 |
| ignas | they don't go on the day boundary | 16:05 |
| ignas | they are not recurring in random patterns | 16:06 |
| ignas | one "slot" one "tt calendar event" | 16:06 |
| yvl | I see | 16:06 |
| ignas | with recurring -> you have a grade on the third recurrence of the event foo | 16:06 |
| yvl | well, that one I'm going to maul | 16:06 |
| ignas | and you have a unique id only for the initial event | 16:07 |
| ignas | I am not even talking about "exceptions" property of a recurring event | 16:07 |
| ignas | does that change your indexing of slots? | 16:07 |
| yvl | let me put it this way... | 16:08 |
| yvl | what if I just stop tying grades to events | 16:08 |
| yvl | and start tying the to dates? | 16:08 |
| yvl | *them | 16:08 |
| ignas | attendance? | 16:08 |
| yvl | yeah | 16:08 |
| yvl | why not? | 16:08 |
| yvl | once the data is entered, a thing has happened | 16:08 |
| ignas | mright, once the data is not entered | 16:09 |
| ignas | a thing has not happened or has happened ;) | 16:09 |
| ignas | well - your choice really | 16:09 |
| yvl | things that did not happen (no data), did not happen | 16:09 |
| ignas | i mean - my idea was to push it towards having timetables as the data structure | 16:09 |
| ignas | for attendance | 16:09 |
| ignas | your choice is splitting | 16:09 |
| yvl | yes | 16:10 |
| yvl | exactly | 16:10 |
| ignas | and having gradebook structure, attendance structure | 16:10 |
| ignas | and timetable structure | 16:10 |
| ignas | and calendar structure | 16:10 |
| ignas | and then trying to tie these together in some useful ways | 16:10 |
| ignas | the integration of attendance with events and timetables | 16:10 |
| yvl | pretty much, yes | 16:10 |
| ignas | was the feature that is pretty hard to do well | 16:11 |
| yvl | what I kind of want to do | 16:11 |
| yvl | is to isolate timetables from attendance at all | 16:11 |
| ignas | as a teacher | 16:12 |
| ignas | if I would hear a developer of SIS | 16:12 |
| ignas | saying that | 16:12 |
| ignas | i'd think it's ridiculous ;) | 16:12 |
| yvl | why? | 16:12 |
| ignas | isolate timetables from attendance | 16:12 |
| ignas | this does not make sense | 16:13 |
| ignas | from the bussiness perspective | 16:13 |
| yvl | ah | 16:13 |
| ignas | maybe it does for code | 16:13 |
| yvl | yes | 16:13 |
| yvl | it's just bad naming | 16:13 |
| th1a | I think the problem is that a lot of schools don't necessarily want to generate the meeting times from the timetable machinery. | 16:13 |
| yvl | more - don't want to be constrained by it | 16:13 |
| th1a | Yes. | 16:14 |
| ignas | and I think it is way too much rope | 16:14 |
| yvl | and unless I missed something | 16:14 |
| yvl | the only way Journal is related to timetables | 16:14 |
| yvl | is via calendaring glue | 16:14 |
| ignas | yes, I wrote journaling with cando style in mind | 16:15 |
| ignas | if you have a different way | 16:15 |
| ignas | to generate "meetings" | 16:15 |
| ignas | or "grading slots" | 16:15 |
| ignas | you can do that | 16:15 |
| ignas | well - you could do that kind of easily | 16:15 |
| yvl | I'm *definitely* not saying you did a bad job! :) | 16:15 |
| ignas | meh, it's a mess | 16:16 |
| yvl | considering dev speed / functionality | 16:16 |
| yvl | it's good :) | 16:16 |
| yvl | and good reuse of "ST API", whatever that is | 16:16 |
| th1a | We started with the wrong aims. | 16:17 |
| th1a | We made it automatic in the wrong places. | 16:17 |
| ignas | it was automatic in the useful places, as in - useful for Lithuanian teachers ;) | 16:18 |
| yvl | :))) | 16:18 |
| ignas | as for timetabling vs attendance | 16:18 |
| yvl | well, let's make them useful for China also :) | 16:18 |
| ignas | you seem to have two different "aims" | 16:18 |
| ignas | in two different "times" | 16:18 |
| ignas | on one hand | 16:18 |
| yvl | yes? | 16:18 |
| ignas | you have homeroom periods | 16:18 |
| ignas | and mega flexible, but very constrained timetabling code | 16:18 |
| ignas | that does not work in a lot of cases | 16:19 |
| ignas | as in - is too constrained | 16:19 |
| ignas | and on the other hand you want flexible attendance | 16:19 |
| ignas | so emm, you want(ed) control | 16:19 |
| ignas | and simplicity | 16:19 |
| ignas | and flexibility | 16:19 |
| yvl | sure | 16:20 |
| yvl | basically - I'm moving away from control | 16:20 |
| yvl | general attitude - we can always add control on top of things | 16:20 |
| yvl | but remove it - is a big burden | 16:21 |
| ignas | emm | 16:21 |
| ignas | you can't add control | 16:21 |
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| ignas | really | 16:21 |
| ignas | 50% of calendar problems | 16:21 |
| ignas | were because we gave freedom | 16:21 |
| ignas | and could not take it away | 16:21 |
| ignas | and had to support | 16:21 |
| ignas | if someone creates a tt schema that "does not make sense" | 16:21 |
| th1a | We will have to take away freedom someplace. | 16:21 |
| ignas | we have to support it | 16:21 |
| ignas | it's not about place ;) | 16:22 |
| ignas | it's about time | 16:22 |
| th1a | Yes. | 16:22 |
| ignas | if someone will set up his attendance in a free form way | 16:22 |
| th1a | We have to lock in past attendance records. | 16:22 |
| ignas | you won't be able to say "we can do a way better job at it if we disallow that" | 16:22 |
| ignas | i am talking about schooltool features | 16:22 |
| ignas | conflict resolution | 16:22 |
| ignas | when making a timetable | 16:23 |
| ignas | sections <> persons conflicts | 16:23 |
| ignas | resource booking | 16:23 |
| ignas | are more difficult and sometimes nigh impossible to do sometimes | 16:23 |
| ignas | the choice to have free calendar events for sections | 16:23 |
| ignas | postponed the implementation fo these "must have" features | 16:24 |
| ignas | of timetabling | 16:24 |
| ignas | for 4 years or so... | 16:24 |
| yvl | I'm inclined to allow unresolved conflicts in more and more places nowadays | 16:25 |
| ignas | it's not about allowing | 16:25 |
| ignas | it's about displaying them | 16:25 |
| yvl | It's not like one teacher cannot teach two different courses at the same time | 16:25 |
| yvl | (in exceptional cases) | 16:25 |
| ignas | i mean - our event system is too flexible | 16:25 |
| ignas | for attendance to be based on it imho | 16:25 |
| ignas | calendar event | 16:26 |
| ignas | so it's more of a - if I have to pick ST timetables vs ST calendar | 16:26 |
| ignas | i'd pick ST timetables for a base data structure | 16:26 |
| yvl | (btw, I'm changing event storage place and calendars a bit) | 16:26 |
| ignas | and extend it + make it more flexible | 16:26 |
| ignas | rather than try working with ST calendar | 16:26 |
| ignas | yvl, you can change code, you can't change ICAL spec ;) | 16:26 |
| yvl | :D | 16:27 |
| yvl | that is true, but not related in my opinion | 16:27 |
| ignas | if you are pretending to support import/export from/to ical, people can do nasty things to your data structures | 16:27 |
| ignas | as in - events have ids | 16:27 |
| ignas | you can move an event | 16:27 |
| ignas | keeping it's id | 16:28 |
| ignas | but changing time | 16:28 |
| ignas | well, if you can pull of all this complexity + refactoring + flexibility | 16:28 |
| ignas | and still get some useful features done | 16:28 |
| ignas | you can do that :) | 16:28 |
| yvl | I'd rather kill iCal support for a period of time, than stop people from having flexible section schedules, or make a mess in data storage and handling | 16:29 |
| ignas | in that case - kill it, not just in "views" part, but maybe in some recurrence rules parts | 16:29 |
| ignas | I mean - events of different timezones in the same calendars with recurrence rules of religious holidays | 16:30 |
| ignas | yeah - schooltool supports that, not sure how a sane attendance library will | 16:30 |
| th1a | It all seemed like a good idea at the time. | 16:30 |
| yvl | btw, remember, some time ago you wanted overlay calendars to be implemented a bit differently? | 16:30 |
| yvl | I'm toying with idea to do that in a separate calendar | 16:30 |
| ignas | it was more of a "we need calendars" + "we need REST" = "let's support ical" -> "let's support timezones + recurrence" | 16:31 |
| yvl | having separate calendars can have interesting uses | 16:31 |
| ignas | there were lot's of ideas | 16:31 |
| ignas | from "central storage for all events" | 16:31 |
| ignas | to "person/calendar" is not a person.calendar | 16:32 |
| ignas | but rather person/calendars | 16:32 |
| ignas | (a view of personal calendars) | 16:32 |
| yvl | yep | 16:32 |
| ignas | and it is messing up both | 16:32 |
| yvl | that's a direction I'm heading | 16:32 |
| ignas | the calendar collecting code | 16:32 |
| ignas | calendar display code | 16:32 |
| ignas | and etc. | 16:32 |
| ignas | personal calendar should not be a special case in "multi calendar view" | 16:33 |
| ignas | nor should it be a special case in "single calendar view" | 16:33 |
| ignas | at least that was an idea | 16:33 |
| yvl | If I understood you correctly | 16:33 |
| yvl | then, again, yes | 16:33 |
| yvl | but my god | 16:34 |
| yvl | it's not easy to do | 16:34 |
| yvl | or design | 16:34 |
| yvl | (ironically, implementation on the other hand might be not that difficult) | 16:35 |
| yvl | (and by to do I mean refactoring) | 16:35 |
| ignas | bigest problem IIRC | 16:35 |
| ignas | was - updating all the functional tests | 16:35 |
| ignas | that triggers a bunch of | 16:35 |
| ignas | oops we forgot that feature | 16:35 |
| ignas | etc. | 16:35 |
| ignas | i mean - it changes *things* | 16:36 |
| ignas | overlays, timetabling overlays, resource booking?, person front page | 16:36 |
| ignas | and that's if you only thing about the calendaring part of it ;) | 16:37 |
| yvl | I know | 16:37 |
| ignas | deciding whether you want calendar visible on the person page that much in the first place | 16:37 |
| yvl | I've been poking around the issue for a while now | 16:37 |
| ignas | can get you into a recursive designing stage :D | 16:37 |
| ignas | and get you shaving a yak | 16:37 |
| yvl | well, banging the head against the wall in my case | 16:38 |
| yvl | but I'm kind of over that part :) | 16:38 |
| yvl | oh, a very timely email about a booking (bug) | 16:41 |
| yvl | I just love when random things happen in a timely manner | 16:42 |
| yvl | like, when I'm thinking about booking :) | 16:42 |
| yvl | ignas - once more | 16:43 |
| yvl | a huge thank you | 16:43 |
| th1a | Yes, it was well timed. ;-) | 16:43 |
| ignas | np really, I like talking about stuff I made and stuff I am thinking :D | 16:43 |
| yvl | :D | 16:44 |
| ignas | now back to less glorious endeavours, making file list contract/expand using java script | 16:44 |
| yvl | :DDDDDDD | 16:45 |
| ignas | spent last week adding inline file renames and a recycle bin functionality | 16:45 |
| yvl | is it me, or does that have a faint aura of awesomeness? ;) | 16:48 |
| ignas | ahh, it's da best part in da system mon! | 16:49 |
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| th1a | replaceafill, What does this say? http://edsiper.linuxchile.cl/blog/?p=309 | 20:57 |
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| replaceafill | hi th1a, sorry i was away | 21:17 |
| replaceafill | it's an invitation | 21:17 |
| th1a | To? | 21:17 |
| replaceafill | there's this festival where you promote free software, they call it an installation day | 21:18 |
| replaceafill | you bring your pc and they put gnu/linux if you want to try it | 21:18 |
| replaceafill | we had that last week here in ES | 21:18 |
| th1a | OK. | 21:18 |
| th1a | Just wondering. | 21:18 |
| replaceafill | it means Latinamerican Festival of Free Software Installation | 21:19 |
| replaceafill | FLISOL | 21:19 |
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