IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2010-05-04

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yvlignas, maybe you can remember15:21
yvlis there any reason why journal data is hooked on TimetableCalendarEvents15:21
yvland not just calendar events?15:21
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ignasyvl, well, so I would not get new cells15:51
ignasfor my lunch ;)15:51
ignasok, sections don't have lunch15:51
ignasyvl, thinking...15:52
* yvl is listening intensely15:53
ignasi think it was just that timetable events were more constrained15:55
ignasthus required less work ;)15:55
ignasi mean - you can do a bunch of stuff with real events15:55
ignaslike make them recurrent15:55
ignasmove them around, etc.15:55
yvlI see15:56
ignasalso - TimetableEvents15:56
ignashave an ID15:56
ignasthat is easy to generate15:56
ignastimetable slot etc15:56
ignasso if you remove an event15:56
ignasand generate a new one in the same place15:56
ignasyou can "restore" the grades15:56
ignasthat were in that day15:56
ignasnot so with calendar events15:56
yvlthat one I figured out15:57
yvlok, thanks a lot!15:57
ignasyou can't say "first lesson on 2009-01-01 for section boo hoo"15:57
ignaswhich I *think*15:57
ignasI am doing in some place where grade key is being generated15:57
ignascan't recall that well :(15:57
yvlthe point is, that you are glueing the key from some parts there15:58
ignaswhen it comes to schooltool the "i wish i did" and "i actually did" are getting more and more blurred ;)15:58
yvlI saw the code some time ago15:58
yvl(and these parts are quite predictable)15:58
yvlwell, again, thanks15:58
yvlI'm planning to do some mauling on timetables, calendaring, resources and journal16:00
ignashmm, yeah, I can recall wishing to have a data structure for timetable events that would allow creating simple events but only in "slots" defined by TTschema and term16:00
ignaswhich would give the structure needed by gradebook/attendance16:01
yvlwhat about... creating out of slots :)16:01
yvlI mean - why not?16:01
ignasattendance, 15 minute, 1 minute events16:01
ignasas in16:01
yvlremove the word "needed", and here you go16:01
ignasin one case you have a discreet grid16:01
ignaswith few hundereds/thousands of slots16:01
ignasand in another case - you have millions of possible events16:02
ignasin random places, with overlaps etc.16:02
yvlbut when you have two same lessons in one day16:02
ignassome easy features in one case (conflict resolution) become hard in the other one16:03
yvljournal becomes messed up anyway16:03
ignasnot really16:03
ignasthat case was covered and it works16:03
yvlokay, something else no longer works16:03
yvldon't remember the bug id16:04
yvlthe point - duplicated day entries in the journal16:04
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ignaswell, that is on purpose16:04
ignasyou can skip lesson1 and attend lesson216:05
yvlyeah, I know16:05
ignasbut it's broken? :)16:05
yvlso... if a random event was added that day16:05
yvlwhy not?16:05
ignastimetable events don16:05
yvleven if it's not related to an activity16:05
ignas't overlap16:05
ignasthey don't go on the day boundary16:05
ignasthey are not recurring in random patterns16:06
ignasone "slot" one "tt calendar event"16:06
yvlI see16:06
ignaswith recurring -> you have a grade on the third recurrence of the event foo16:06
yvlwell, that one I'm going to maul16:06
ignasand you have a unique id only for the initial event16:07
ignasI am not even talking about "exceptions" property of a recurring event16:07
ignasdoes that change your indexing of slots?16:07
yvllet me put it this way...16:08
yvlwhat if I just stop tying grades to events16:08
yvland start tying the to dates?16:08
yvlwhy not?16:08
yvlonce the data is entered, a thing has happened16:08
ignasmright, once the data is not entered16:09
ignasa thing has not happened or has happened ;)16:09
ignaswell - your choice really16:09
yvlthings that did not happen (no data), did not happen16:09
ignasi mean - my idea was to push it towards having timetables as the data structure16:09
ignasfor attendance16:09
ignasyour choice is splitting16:09
ignasand having gradebook structure, attendance structure16:10
ignasand timetable structure16:10
ignasand calendar structure16:10
ignasand then trying to tie these together in some useful ways16:10
ignasthe integration of attendance with events and timetables16:10
yvlpretty much, yes16:10
ignaswas the feature that is pretty hard to do well16:11
yvlwhat I kind of want to do16:11
yvlis to isolate timetables from attendance at all16:11
ignasas a teacher16:12
ignasif I would hear a developer of SIS16:12
ignassaying that16:12
ignasi'd think it's ridiculous ;)16:12
ignasisolate timetables from attendance16:12
ignasthis does not make sense16:13
ignasfrom the bussiness perspective16:13
ignasmaybe it does for code16:13
yvlit's just bad naming16:13
th1aI think the problem is that a lot of schools don't necessarily want to generate the meeting times from the timetable machinery.16:13
yvlmore - don't want to be constrained by it16:13
ignasand I think it is way too much rope16:14
yvland unless I missed something16:14
yvlthe only way Journal is related to timetables16:14
yvlis via calendaring glue16:14
ignasyes, I wrote journaling with cando style in mind16:15
ignasif you have a different way16:15
ignasto generate "meetings"16:15
ignasor "grading slots"16:15
ignasyou can do that16:15
ignaswell - you could do that kind of easily16:15
yvlI'm *definitely* not saying you did a bad job! :)16:15
ignasmeh, it's a mess16:16
yvlconsidering dev speed / functionality16:16
yvlit's good :)16:16
yvland good reuse of "ST API", whatever that is16:16
th1aWe started with the wrong aims.16:17
th1aWe made it automatic in the wrong places.16:17
ignasit was automatic in the useful places, as in - useful for Lithuanian teachers ;)16:18
ignasas for timetabling vs attendance16:18
yvlwell, let's make them useful for China also :)16:18
ignasyou seem to have two different "aims"16:18
ignasin two different "times"16:18
ignason one hand16:18
ignasyou have homeroom periods16:18
ignasand mega flexible, but very constrained timetabling code16:18
ignasthat does not work in a lot of cases16:19
ignasas in - is too constrained16:19
ignasand on the other hand you want flexible attendance16:19
ignasso emm, you want(ed) control16:19
ignasand simplicity16:19
ignasand flexibility16:19
yvlbasically - I'm moving away from control16:20
yvlgeneral attitude - we can always add control on top of things16:20
yvlbut remove it - is a big burden16:21
ignasyou can't add control16:21
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ignas50% of calendar problems16:21
ignaswere because we gave freedom16:21
ignasand could not take it away16:21
ignasand had to support16:21
ignasif someone creates a tt schema that "does not make sense"16:21
th1aWe will have to take away freedom someplace.16:21
ignaswe have to support it16:21
ignasit's not about place ;)16:22
ignasit's about time16:22
ignasif someone will set up his attendance in a free form way16:22
th1aWe have to lock in past attendance records.16:22
ignasyou won't be able to say "we can do a way better job at it if we disallow that"16:22
ignasi am talking about schooltool features16:22
ignasconflict resolution16:22
ignaswhen making a timetable16:23
ignassections <> persons conflicts16:23
ignasresource booking16:23
ignasare more difficult and sometimes nigh impossible to do sometimes16:23
ignasthe choice to have free calendar events for sections16:23
ignaspostponed the implementation fo these "must have" features16:24
ignasof timetabling16:24
ignasfor 4 years or so...16:24
yvlI'm inclined to allow unresolved conflicts in more and more places nowadays16:25
ignasit's not about allowing16:25
ignasit's about displaying them16:25
yvlIt's not like one teacher cannot teach two different courses at the same time16:25
yvl(in exceptional cases)16:25
ignasi mean - our event system is too flexible16:25
ignasfor attendance to be based on it imho16:25
ignascalendar event16:26
ignasso it's more of a - if I have to pick ST timetables vs ST calendar16:26
ignasi'd pick ST timetables for a base data structure16:26
yvl(btw, I'm changing event storage place and calendars a bit)16:26
ignasand extend it + make it more flexible16:26
ignasrather than try working with ST calendar16:26
ignasyvl, you can change code, you can't change ICAL spec ;)16:26
yvlthat is true, but not related in my opinion16:27
ignasif you are pretending to support import/export from/to ical, people can do nasty things to your data structures16:27
ignasas in - events have ids16:27
ignasyou can move an event16:27
ignaskeeping it's id16:28
ignasbut changing time16:28
ignaswell, if you can pull of all this complexity + refactoring + flexibility16:28
ignasand still get some useful features done16:28
ignasyou can do that :)16:28
yvlI'd rather kill iCal support for a period of time, than stop people from having flexible section schedules, or make a mess in data storage and handling16:29
ignasin that case - kill it, not just in "views" part, but maybe in some recurrence rules parts16:29
ignasI mean - events of different timezones in the same calendars with recurrence rules of religious holidays16:30
ignasyeah - schooltool supports that, not sure how a sane attendance library will16:30
th1aIt all seemed like a good idea at the time.16:30
yvlbtw, remember, some time ago you wanted overlay calendars to be implemented a bit differently?16:30
yvlI'm toying with idea to do that in a separate calendar16:30
ignasit was more of a "we need calendars" + "we need REST" = "let's support ical" -> "let's support timezones + recurrence"16:31
yvlhaving separate calendars can have interesting uses16:31
ignasthere were lot's of ideas16:31
ignasfrom "central storage for all events"16:31
ignasto "person/calendar" is not a person.calendar16:32
ignasbut rather person/calendars16:32
ignas(a view of personal calendars)16:32
ignasand it is messing up both16:32
yvlthat's a direction I'm heading16:32
ignasthe calendar collecting code16:32
ignascalendar display code16:32
ignasand etc.16:32
ignaspersonal calendar should not be a special case in "multi calendar view"16:33
ignasnor should it be a special case in "single calendar view"16:33
ignasat least that was an idea16:33
yvlIf I understood you correctly16:33
yvlthen, again, yes16:33
yvlbut my god16:34
yvlit's not easy to do16:34
yvlor design16:34
yvl(ironically, implementation on the other hand might be not that difficult)16:35
yvl(and by to do I mean refactoring)16:35
ignasbigest problem IIRC16:35
ignaswas - updating all the functional tests16:35
ignasthat triggers a bunch of16:35
ignasoops we forgot that feature16:35
ignasi mean - it changes *things*16:36
ignasoverlays, timetabling overlays, resource booking?, person front page16:36
ignasand that's if you only thing about the calendaring part of it ;)16:37
yvlI know16:37
ignasdeciding whether you want calendar visible on the person page that much in the first place16:37
yvlI've been poking around the issue for a while now16:37
ignascan get you into a recursive designing stage :D16:37
ignasand get you shaving a yak16:37
yvlwell, banging the head against the wall in my case16:38
yvlbut I'm kind of over that part :)16:38
yvloh, a very timely email about a booking (bug)16:41
yvlI just love when random things happen in a timely manner16:42
yvllike, when I'm thinking about booking :)16:42
yvlignas - once more16:43
yvla huge thank you16:43
th1aYes, it was well timed.  ;-)16:43
ignasnp really, I like talking about stuff I made and stuff I am thinking :D16:43
ignasnow back to less glorious endeavours, making file list contract/expand using java script16:44
ignasspent last week adding inline file renames and a recycle bin functionality16:45
yvlis it me, or does that have a faint aura of awesomeness? ;)16:48
ignasahh, it's da best part in da system mon!16:49
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th1areplaceafill, What does this say?
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replaceafillhi th1a, sorry i was away21:17
replaceafillit's an invitation21:17
replaceafillthere's this festival where you promote free software, they call it an installation day21:18
replaceafillyou bring your pc and they put gnu/linux if you want to try it21:18
replaceafillwe had that last week here in ES21:18
th1aJust wondering.21:18
replaceafillit means Latinamerican Festival of Free Software Installation21:19
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