IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2010-03-02

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replaceafillaelkner, ping06:43
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aelknerreplaceafill: ayt?08:15
replaceafillaelkner, yep08:15
replaceafillreading your mail08:15
replaceafillaelkner, "sign on as various users and click on the Intervention tab08:16
replaceafillat the top to see if each user's dashboard renders properly and then08:16
replaceafillfollow some of the links you may find there"08:16
replaceafilldid that but i got nothing08:17
replaceafilli was looking for goals and stuff08:17
aelknerlooks lke they haven't added any yet08:17
aelknerdid you try jelner as a user?08:17
replaceafilllog in as jelkner08:18
aelknerso the dashboard render but is empty?08:18
replaceafillgo to interventions tab08:18
replaceafillIntervention Dashboard08:18
aelkneri'd say confidence is high08:18
replaceafillnothing on the table though08:18
aelknermy recommendation is a go for deployment08:19
aelknerdefcon 208:19
* replaceafill looking for defcon 2's meaning :P08:19
yvlby the way, the old "search all interventions" view should be around?08:19
aelknerit's not needed anymore08:19
aelknerit was really redundant08:19
yvlah, yes08:19
yvlI remember now :)08:19
aelkneran admin can search for a person in Manage PErsons08:20
yvlsorry, didn't get my morning coffee yet08:20
aelkneryes, you were at the sprint when that was discussed08:20
aelknerno prob08:20
aelknerdefcon is joke from the 80's movire, War Games08:20
aelknerit's not important08:21
replaceafillaelkner, if i go to a section i get an intervention button08:26
replaceafillnow i see links in the "Message and Observations" box for a student08:26
replaceafilland there's the famous: darkgray!!! :D08:28
aelknerreplaceafill: so is everything ok?08:55
replaceafillaelkner, it seems ok08:56
aelknerglad to hear it08:56
aelknerso you'll have jelkner try it out this morning?08:56
replaceafillyes, it's already set08:56
replaceafillwhen he logs in he'll use it08:57
aelkneri'm going to be speaking to him today, so i'm glad we'll be able to talk about it08:57
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yvlhi th1a16:24
yvltwo questions regarding your mail16:24
th1aHi yvl.16:24
yvlis there a reason why you suggested to move things from Manage to Manage->Advanced instead of removing them entirely?16:25
th1aWell... it would probably be good to be able to get to them.16:26
th1aI don't have a super strong feeling about it.16:26
th1aWe could just get rid of them for starters.16:27
yvlthen I vote for removing them16:27
yvlfor now16:27
yvlanother thing is regarding action buttons16:28
yvlwe kind of still have technical debt on them16:28
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yvlyou might recall the thing were we can't sort *some* of the buttons16:28
yvlwell, good news - we can't remove or modify them either :)16:28
yvlat least, easily16:29
yvlso, we can:16:29
th1aMaybe for the prototype then it is better to have none?16:29
yvl1) remove all action buttons, add new ones were needed16:29
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yvl2) remove only old-style buttons (don't know what will disappear), add what is missing, manually disable buttons we don't need16:30
yvlthe thing is, disabling, changing order or title of a button is basically adding another definition that overrides the old one16:31
th1aWoudn't it be quickest for prototyping to just get rid of all of them and hard code in the few links we need?16:31
yvlso every time gradebook or schooltool gains a button, it will magically appear in schooltool.cambodia16:32
yvlyes, getting rid of everything and re-adding what we need is a bit quicker in my opinion16:32
aelkneryvl: i was wondering myself why we could start from the assumption of removing all action b uttons16:34
aelknerwe have Manage, after all16:34
aelknerall the views could look like Manage does16:34
aelknerin the sense that it's a kiosk of sorts16:35
th1aI'd rather spend the week focusing on the interface than plumbing.16:35
aelknerlike I always say, like an ATM16:35
aelknerThe UI should ideally be that simple16:35
aelknerthe start with the tabs we already have16:35
aelknereach click either takes them to a final place (like the intervention dashboard)16:36
aelkneror to a list  (or oter structure like a table) of links16:36
aelknerWho ever complained abot an ATM interface?16:36
aelknerit is easy to disable all action buttons16:37
aelknerjust a couple lines of code/registration change16:37
th1aaelkner wants his greenscreen terminal back.16:37
aelknerI just know from experience16:38
th1aYou know what rocked?16:38
aelknernever used it16:38
aelknerwhat of type of software is that?16:38
th1aAnyhow, I'm going to have to take Julia to the pediatrician in a few minutes.16:39
aelkneryvl: shall we continue?16:39
th1aSo yes, I vote for just going action-buttonless.16:39
th1areplaceafill:  Did you start anything yesterday?16:39
replaceafilli have one question16:40
replaceafillwhat fields are going to be garbage in the new person views?16:40
replaceafillsorry for the flooding:16:40
replaceafillFirst name *16:40
replaceafillMiddle name16:40
replaceafillLast name *16:40
replaceafillPreferred name16:40
replaceafillBirth date (yyyy-mm-dd)16:40
replaceafillUsername *16:40
replaceafillPlace of birth16:40
mgedminwhat, username twice?16:41
replaceafillthat's the form for person16:41
th1aI don't want to go through trying to figure out what demographics they need right now, since that's so easy to change.16:41
replaceafillsorry, one is the label and the other one is the tip :)16:41
th1aSo why don't you axe Group, Advisor, and everything after ID.16:42
replaceafilland about contact info16:42
replaceafillare we going to add one by default?16:42
yvlbtw, username - autogenerated16:42
th1ayvl: yes.16:42
yvlpassword - chopped out16:42
th1aonly for students though.16:43
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yvlah, yes16:43
th1aFor contacts, can we just add fields to create one parent contact at the end of the form.16:43
th1aThat'll do for starters.16:43
th1aOr, I guess you might as well be able to set the type.16:44
th1aThat isn't hard.16:44
replaceafillth1a, i was thinking more of self contact16:44
th1aThese are all kids.16:44
th1aIn Cambodia.16:44
* yvl votes for no self-contact, just one parent contact built into the new student / edit student forms16:45
yvlmaybe self-contact for the rest of the people later on16:45
th1aWe're going to have to split that now.16:45
th1a(it was inevitable anyhow)16:45
th1aOK, any questions for me before I bolt -- you guys can talk among yourselves -- particularly if you can get aelkner started on a task.16:46
replaceafillyvl, my new question is the autogenerated username?16:47
replaceafillsimilar to the intid logic?16:47
yvla moment, replaceafill16:48
yvlth1a - did you have a chance to chat with aelkner about how gradebook should look?16:48
yvlwe should need something like one page and few report cards?16:49
yvlreplaceafill: some namechooser that takes up first unused... id or something16:52
th1aThe gradebook can look like the gradebook now, just without any options to add or change anything.16:52
th1aThe report sheet setup will have to be streamlined.16:52
* th1a leaves for an hour or so.16:53
yvlgood luck, th1a16:53
* yvl goes away to think and make coffee for few minutes...16:53
aelknerreplaceafill: just got off the phone with jelkner16:54
aelknerhe says he needs the new features of schooltool.gradebook16:54
replaceafillok, time to update the gradebook then16:54
aelkneras it can take up to a month (even more)  before one of my fixes reaches the eggs16:55
aelknerand as i isn't even merged into trunk16:55
replaceafillhe's using a branch right now though16:55
aelkneryou'll need to use my latest branch16:55
aelknerwhat branch?16:55
replaceafillrevno: 13616:56
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aelkneryvl: what happened to my branches in launchpad?!16:56
aelknerah, never mind16:57
aelkneri had to chagne to any status16:57
aelkneri guess menesis made them inactive16:57
replaceafillaelkner, so, what branch do you want me to use?16:57
aelknerlp~aelkner, of course16:58
aelknerlp:~aelkner, i mean16:58
aelknerth1a: can i start a discussion about the UI?16:59
mgedminanybody care about the future of zope 3?  30-minute meeting in #zope starts in 5 seconds16:59
yvlso, here's my rough plan17:02
yvlsome time soon you'll get the schooltool.cambodia branch17:02
yvlbasically our development will be focused on two things17:03
yvl1) auto-magical data setup17:03
yvl2) new UI pages / action buttons / other tweeks17:03
yvlall changes should be done only in schooltool.cambodia17:04
yvl(I know, I'm stating the obvious, but bear with me :)17:04
yvlfor perons, there are schooltool.cambodia.person directory17:05
yvlIBasicPersonLayer is killed, so add and import forms will not appear17:05
replaceafillah good, that was another of my questions :)17:05
yvlcambodia.person has it's own overrides.zcml and configure.zcml17:06
yvlthat currently imports corresponding files from schooltool17:06
yvleventually, we might change the catalog, person factory17:07
yvlmaybe demographics17:07
yvlmaybe replace BasicPerson with CambodiaPerson17:07
yvlor something even more crazy17:07
yvlso that'll be the place to define such things17:07
yvland schooltool.cambodia.person.browser is kind of a good place do write add / edit forms17:08
yvland the separate search views17:08
yvlthat may just silently filter persons by group17:08
yvlalso it is a good place to register links to Manage, also action buttons17:09
yvlstuff like that17:09
yvlthen comes the gradebook17:09
yvlas almost all of the configuration functionality will be chopped out17:10
yvl(oh, and it will have schooltool.cambodia.gradebook)17:10
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yvlthe first thing to do is to write sane default activities, etc.17:10
yvlI don't remember well how the worksheets are deployed now17:11
yvlbut basically, some subscriber(s) will have to create them17:11
yvlalso - set up the correct score system17:12
yvl(I guess 1-10, but we'll wait for Javier's answer)17:12
replaceafilli saw some F-A yesterday17:12
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yvlalso, create the "final term grade" or something activity for each section17:12
yvlor however the setup should be done.17:13
replaceafill"For grade 12 (national examination) the scale is from F to A"17:13
replaceafill"And for grade 7 to grade 11, the students will be graded by the scale from poor to excellent." :S17:13
yvlwell that's helpful :|17:14
* yvl sighs17:14
yvlso, I will not cut out current action buttons for few days17:14
yvlso that you could set up stuff like schoolyears, etc.17:15
yvlbut once there are enough views to get the minimal school setup17:15
yvl*all* action buttons and everything under Manage; all that is not registered in schooltool.cambodia will go away17:16
yvlwell, that's kind of it.17:17
aelkneryes, definely we should start by getting rid of all action buttons17:19
replaceafillyvl, we're going to set up a default schoolyear and term, right?17:19
aelkneri think this excersize is going to show us a lot about how th UI should have been been  built17:19
aelkneri would need to create a different version of the gradebook overview view17:21
aelknerit would have most of the same functionality as the standard  one17:21
aelknerit would need to have buttons on it for where the user may want to go17:21
aelkneras for the subscriber, yes, we need an automatic way to set up their report sheets17:22
aelkneri would suggest evolution for that as we can use schooltool.cambodia.generations for that17:23
aelknerok, maybe not17:23
yvlsimilar initialization as in other places17:24
aelknerhow abotu schoolyear add subscription>17:24
aelknerok, wait17:24
aelknerhere's the thing17:24
aelkneryou have to understand the mechanism that we already have ion place17:24
aelknerreport sheets get created by the admin user (more about dong this automatically later)17:25
aelknerthen then get deployed to a term (though deploying to an entire school year is more practical17:25
aelknerwe could do that deployment automatically also17:25
aelkneranyway, when a section is created17:26
aelknerthere is a subscriber that automatically deploys the report sheet to the newly created section17:26
aelknerso we have the freedom to deploy report sheets to schoolyears17:26
aelknerand let the automatic machinery deploy the rest to the sections17:27
yvlsounds right17:27
yvlI got the impression, that there will be one and only one worksheet?17:28
aelkneri would guess it wold be that simple17:28
aelknerth1a seemed to be focused on the simple solution17:29
* yvl too17:29
aelkneror, in other words, it could be said that cambodia's data model is a special case17:29
aelknerand as such, will be conveniently simple in some cases17:30
yvlthat's the whole idea17:30
yvlso yes, you may also need a very simple view17:30
yvlthat ignores the worksheets, etc.17:30
yvlswitching between taught sections should be enough17:31
aelknerthe gradebook overview, though flawed in its implementation, provides a lot of functionality17:31
aelknerso i would guess that not much of it would change17:31
aelknerbut navigation17:31
aelknermanaging worksheetsm etc.17:31
aelknerthat will be greatly simplified17:31
aelkneri would start with my new version of the overview17:31
aelknerand add the buttons to it as need be17:32
yvlsounds good17:32
yvlso, new version of the overview, and automatic sheet definition/deployment + the one activity or something17:32
yvlthe whole idea is that *everything* unnecessary should be hidden17:33
yvllike column totals17:33
yvl(bad example, they are hidden by default I think)17:33
yvlbut you get the idea17:33
yvlagain, don't worry about navigation for the next 1-2 days17:33
yvlI'll specifically leave all action buttons in place17:34
aelknerthat's fine17:34
aelkneractually, column totals are visable by default17:34
yvlor you all will have trouble creating schoolyears, courses, sections ;)17:34
aelknerbut that can easily be changed17:34
aelknerah, you're thinking tests17:35
yvlnot just tests17:35
aelknerwhere else?17:35
yvlwell, you might want to run the server and look at the database17:35
yvlyou'll have to use a NEW database anyway17:36
yvlno data whatsoever17:36
aelkneri don't understand that part17:36
aelknerabout the db, what would be different?17:37
aelkneri meanm we may not expose certain things17:37
aelknerbut isn't it possible to keep everything there?17:37
yvlit will most likely work17:37
yvlbut I strongly suggest to get a fresh start17:37
yvlwe won't be writing generation scripts this week17:38
yvland we may be changing data17:38
yvlso, use old databases at your own risk17:38
aelknerthat's why you were talking about redefining the app object, right?17:38
yvlwe are not redefining the app object17:38
yvlit's just a name of a directory17:39
yvllike schooltool.stapp200517:39
yvlnow we also have schooltool.cambodia.app17:39
aelknerwell that's a different matter17:39
yvlwell, you had my friendly warning :)17:40
yvlfor a day or so, you're kind of safe17:40
yvlto use the old database, I guess17:41
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yvljust... don't expect me to fix stuff if it gets broken.17:41
yvlnot the right way to do prototyping17:41
yvlbut don't worry too much about this ;)17:42
replaceafillyvl, are we going to throw away what we do this week?17:42
replaceafilli ask because of the tests17:43
yvlmost likely not17:43
replaceafillare we going to add them17:43
yvlfeel free to test as much or as little as you want17:43
replaceafilli think, that if we're going to keep it, some tests are good17:43
replaceafillbut if it's just an experiment...17:44
yvlwe'll keep it, or most of it I think17:44
replaceafillah ok17:44
yvlI guess... that we'll keep it17:44
yvlbut you know.17:44
yvlstuff happens :)17:44
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yvlI'll email you when the branch is ready17:46
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th1aSounds like you guys have things sorted.  Any questions for me yvl, aelkner?18:57
yvlnot at the moment, th1a18:59
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