IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2009-10-26

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th1ahi menesis, yvl, aelkner.15:32
yvlhi th1a15:32
th1aOK, how are we looking for the release.15:33
th1aIn particular, do we have a plan for dealing with the new Zope packages in Karmic?15:34
menesislooking late :(15:36
yvlmenesis, details? :)15:37
menesiseither we release what is done already, this week, for jaunty and earlier15:40
menesisor postpone the release to have time to upgrade the underlying zope platform15:41
menesislooking at it is nowhere near ready15:42
menesisbut gradebook has many new features, and we have a new intervention package15:42
th1aSo basically we need to change the packaging around now.15:43
th1aLots of little fixes, I presume?15:43
menesisso I propose an interim release soon, using the same zope 3.4 platform and packages15:43
menesisand prepare proper Zope Toolkit packages to be included in Ubuntu Lucid, and a SchoolTool release based on them15:44
th1ahere are my thoughts:15:45
th1aa) This isn't an upgrade that we want to push to everyone who apt-get updates;15:45
th1ab) we don't want to take a lot of time packaging for jaunty and earlier;15:45
th1ac) I'm ok with saying "ok, the software is done and freezing it, and then focusing on the packaging"15:46
th1aSo I'm just a little unsure about how much time we should spend putting out packages for Jaunty and earlier as soon as possible, since we don't really want people using them immediately anyhow.15:47
th1aIf you know what I mean.15:47
th1aIt might be better to just focus on Karmic.15:48
th1ayvl: How do you see it?15:48
yvlSo the plan is , if I got it correctly: don't release updates for Jaunty and earlier, release on 3.4 platform for Karmic?15:49
th1aThat's what I'm suggesting.15:49
yvlmenesis, how long it would take us to release a working Zope 3.4 based schooltool on Karmic?15:50
menesisa) we can create a different ppa, let's call it "1.2", and put new releases there. it depends on the main ppa and will have packages for hardy-jaunty for those who want the new release15:50
menesisb) it takes little time to package just schooltool*15:50
th1aI hadn't been figuring on doing a jaunty release for 1.2, but the reason to do it now is just to say "see, we completed the release on time."15:51
th1aBut it isn't worth doing that if it will end up costing us time, particularly if it will incur confusion and maintenance costs down the road.15:52
menesisyvl: I don't know yet what are incompatibilities between the new zope packages in karmic and the current ones; and how much zope.* packages are affected. but we will need source changes for sure, so it's not only about packaging15:54
th1aI guess I was imagining that we could still use our Zope packages in Karmic and just ignore the Ubuntu ones.15:55
th1aSee the problem?15:55
menesisit should be possible to pin some packages to be taken from the PPA in /etc/apt/apt.conf15:56
th1aThat's not practical for users though, right?15:56
yvlit would save us a lot of headaches until Lucid15:56
menesisor, set Depends: zope.component << 3.5 for schooltool packages and maybe APT can solve the dependencies15:57
yvlbut I guess the best thing we can do is port SchoolTool to work with newer packages15:57
th1aThat's probably the next thing you have to do anyhow.15:58
yvlI'm not sure how long will that take15:58
menesisthat last solution might work and make schooltool available for karmic soonest15:58
yvlok, I'll start doing that immediatly15:58
th1aWhat yvl and menesis should do immediately...15:59
th1aYou beat me to it.15:59
menesisbut, particularly for gradebook - I would expect that current users on jaunty- would like the new release because it contains many bugfixes...15:59
th1aJust focus on Karmic, let me know how long you think it will take.15:59
th1aCan we do a gradebook-only update?15:59
aelknerremember grade book now depends on lyceum jounral16:00
yvlWe should release the current state of whole SchoolTool for Jaunty16:01
menesisI think we should release something that's available now, for current platforms, and make sure it is installable for karmic for those who try doing it16:01
menesisbecause our last release was on July 716:01
menesismy question - do it in the same PPA or a new one16:02
menesisfor that I think we need Release Notes for all of the packages16:02
menesisto see how they are different from last stable release16:02
th1aIf we don't want to overwrite the current version, do we need a new PPA?16:02
th1aDoes that matter?16:02
menesisit's my problem16:03
menesisthe question is do we really NOT want current users to upgrade?16:03
th1aIs it practical to not overwrite the current version?16:04
th1aWell, you don't want to push changes to deployed instances.16:04
th1aImagine you're a school sys admin who has trained 30 teachers to use a gradebook which suddenly changes the week grades are due.16:05
th1aNever mind introducing new bugs.16:05
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th1aSee what I mean?16:05
dwelshgood morning16:05
th1aHi dwelsh.16:05
dwelshAre we in midst of 9:30am mtg?16:06
th1adwelsh: Yes.16:06
menesisfrom what I see, schooltool has little changes -- plugin initialization improvements, self contacts and contact indexing,, some fixes, and i18n fixes16:06
th1aThe problem with this plan is that the more you think about it the more time I'm afraid it will end up taking.16:07
th1aThe whole intervention package...16:07
th1aWe could leave that out.16:07
th1aFor jaunty versions.16:07
menesisthat's a new package, no problem with it. if it is ready.16:07
th1aLet's meet tomorrow same time after yvl and menesis have looked at the Karmic issues.16:08
th1aWhether we do a Jaunty release depends on how long that will take.16:08
th1aTwo weeks or less, we won't bother.16:09
yvlyou know, the more I think about it, the more I'm reluctant to release updates to Jaunty16:09
menesisand about school sysadmins and teachers - I don't think it makes much sense to tie our release cycle to Ubuntu releases.16:09
th1aWell, it will when we're *in Ubuntu*.16:09
menesisit would be better to line up the release date with semesters - release at the start of holidays to give them time to prepare for a new semester16:09
th1aYes, but different parts of the world have different schedules anyhow.16:10
yvlwell, we can't do that - semesters start differently globally16:10
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menesisbecause we are solving two separate problems - what goes into a new release, and for what ubuntu distros we package them16:10
yvlyou beat me this time, th1a :)16:10
th1aI think going forward we'll continue doing it this way -- new SchoolTool release for new Ubuntu release, except for serious bugfixes.16:11
th1aWe'll do that until there is a clear reason to do it differently.16:11
th1aThe other thing about timing is that there isn't a lot of advantage to trying to push out releases right when people need them.16:12
yvland I'm beginning te lean to that we start doing it with this release16:12
th1aSys admins would prefer if they come out three or four months before they're going to deploy them.16:12
th1ayvl: Yes.16:12
th1aUnless we can't fix the Karmic packaging for a month.16:12
yvlof course, th1a16:13
th1aSys admins aren't thinking "ooh, let me get the latest feature" they're thinking "this better not break."16:13
menesisI'm just worried that I haven't released any packages to test yet, but karmic is due out in 3 days. so we are really late already16:13
th1aWell, yes, we pretty much are late already.16:14
yvlthe question is, can we nail it in a week16:14
th1aWe essentially have the code done now, except for the packages.16:14
* yvl doesn't have an answer yet16:14
menesisok so we cut what's done now and release.16:14
yvland have a "Christmas special" :)16:15
th1aI mean, I can quietly announce we've "released" the tarball ;-)16:15
menesisok I was thinking about postponing until CHristmas but we can do a stable update for Christmas, definitely16:15
yvlth1a, just to be clear16:16
menesisI have quietly released schooltool 1.1.0 last week!16:16
yvlwait, what?16:16
th1aWe'll figure out the timeline tomorrow once we have a sense of how much needs to be done.16:16
yvlok, deal16:16
menesisall the other packages need to depend schooltool >= 1.1 because of the plugin init changes16:17
th1aThis *shouldn't* take a lot of work.16:17
menesisbut before that there needs to be at least one 1.1 release16:17
th1aThere aren't supposed to be big backward incompatible changes in the Zope versions.16:17
th1aOf course, ymmv.16:18
menesisoh of course 2009.04 is > 1.1 :( but that's another problem16:18
th1agah.  Yes... sorry about that.16:18
th1aThere is only one package that used that numbering system though, right?16:19
menesisi was planning to reorganize since August but haven't done that still, sorry :(16:19
menesisyes, only one16:19
th1aOK, so we'll meet tomorrow to discuss timeline.16:20
menesisand that is easily fixable with debian epoch: 2009.04.17 < 1:1.1.016:20
th1aaelkner: What do you have left?16:20
th1amenesis: Good.16:20
aelknerschooltool.intervention now uses schooltool.email16:21
yvlth1a: I'll have a short update about "security descriptions" after aelkner is done16:21
th1ayvl  OK.16:21
aelknerit is, however, not ready for translation16:21
aelknerthat's the only task left for that package16:21
menesisI have this task in my todo list16:22
aelknerotherwise, i have a couple of gradebook changes and lyceum journal changes16:22
menesissince I've been updating all other packages' i18n16:22
aelknerthat we agreed i'd do by the end of the month16:22
th1aaelkner: OK.16:23
aelkneri'm confident i can get them done this week16:23
th1aAre you confident the Phillies will win the World Series?16:23
aelknerPhillies in 5 :)16:23
aelknerthe Yankees are just way to happy to have gotten this far16:24
aelknerthey're not ready for what's coming16:24
th1aI'll be rooting for the Phillies.16:24
th1ayvl: Security descriptions?16:25
LumiereI'll be rooting for snow in PA and NY to cancel games 4-516:27
yvla sneak peak on how it will look16:27
yvlI've been bashing my head at random walls last week16:28
yvlbut I'm pretty happy with the backbone under the description mechanism16:28
th1aWow, I'll actually be able to tell you what to change now.  ;-)16:28
yvlexactly :)16:28
th1a(that is, changes in the security policy)16:28
th1aThat looks great.16:29
yvlthese are descriptions only for schooltool core16:29
yvlwork remaining:16:29
yvldescriptions for other packages16:29
yvlsane css (bullet points, etc.)16:30
yvlsane grouping16:30
yvl(group "actions" for wide access groups, like school administration)16:30
yvlsome minor tweaks, like legend for "school administration"16:31
yvlas expanded view just looks silly:16:31
yvl* people in "Clercs" group16:31
yvl* people in "Administrators" group16:31
yvl* super user16:31
yvlon almost every item in the list16:31
th1asuper user = site manager?16:32
yvlyes, that one :)16:32
th1aSo you're saying right now, no permissions differentiate between the three.16:32
yvlthese three form a crowd called "administration"16:32
yvland a lot of permissions are granted for that crowd16:33
th1aThe only thing is, one of the first things I'll probably want to do once I can see all this is start differentiating between the three.  :-(16:33
dwelshth1a... can we touch base today by phone?16:33
th1aLater, of course.16:33
yvlth1a, that's ok16:33
dwelshnothing too dramatic... just want to go over "fix duplicates" approach16:34
th1ayvl:  Good.16:34
th1adwelsh: Sure.16:34
dwelsh(we're moving away from depracate flag)16:34
dwelsh(you may have different/better idea)16:34
yvlthat was one of the stronger arguments why I wanted a flexible description backbone16:34
yvlbecause once we list all the descriptions16:35
dwelshth1a:  will try you this afternoon16:35
th1adwelsh: OK.16:35
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yvlall hell will brake loose with changing permissions16:35
th1aI hope you're prepared.  ;-)16:35
yvlI hope I am now :)16:36
yvlSo, as you kindly offered last Monday16:36
yvland the Monday before...16:36
yvlcan you please write descriptions and updates to the texts?16:36
yvlthings I need:16:36
yvlumm, some glossary first16:37
yvlthe main object model items are called "groups"16:37
yvl... Terms, Sections, Contacts16:37
yvlit would be nice to have descriptions for them16:38
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yvlyes, that's a good source16:39
yvlbut I think some of the items need to be rephrased in the security description view16:39
yvlso if you could do that, I would be most grateful :)16:39
th1aShorter, I presume.16:40
yvlmost of them, yes16:40
yvlthe other thing is, that some actions may be named, well, not clearly enough16:40
* yvl has problems with naming things ;)16:40
th1aShould I just go through the page and try to make it all clearer?16:41
yvlyes, please16:41
yvlactions are the bold thingies on the list16:41
yvllike "Create/Delete"16:41
yvleach of the actions can have descriptions, where needed16:41
yvlfor example: "Modify a contact" vs "List/Search" in the "Contacts" group16:42
aelknerth1a: is the bag of gravel still in hand?16:42
th1aaelkner: You're excused.16:43
yvlth1a will shortly throw it at me, I guess :)16:43
th1ayvl:  I'll get to work on the descriptions.16:43
th1aSee most of you tomorrow...16:43
th1aAlso... time change next week?16:44
th1aFall back, so...16:44
th1aWe meet an hour later UTC?16:44
menesisaelkner: you have pushed your new changes to gradebook and intervention to the old branch locations :( please can you "bzr push --remember lp:~aelkner/schooltool.gradebook/.... again?16:44
yvlth1a, we already had the time change here16:44
th1aYeah, US is out of sync.16:45
th1aSo we'll change it next week then.16:45
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.16:46
yvlth1a, you have the op at #schooltool?16:46
th1aGo Phillies!16:46
th1ayvl: I don't actually.  I think Lumiere does still.16:47
menesissame as always, good thing we were present at the right time today16:47
yvloh, so we'll ask him next Monday :)16:47
* th1a does not understand the intricacies of IRC.16:47
* yvl does not believe that ;)16:48
* th1a can speak in the third person.16:48
th1aThat's about it.16:49
Lumiereopping myself16:49
Lumiereworks ebtter if I am authenticated16:49
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yvlooh, can you give me op too? :)16:49
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o yvl16:49
yvlthanks :)16:50
*** Lumiere changes topic to "SchoolTool development | SchoolTool 1.0 has been released! | IRC logs at | SchoolTool Dev meetings Mon, 14:30 UTC (15:30 EET, 9:30 EST) | Use for pasting | Write more unit and functional tests! Yes, you! | Build Status:"16:50
LumiereI get that right? :)16:50
yvlumm, EST willl change next week, right?16:50
Lumierethat's why the change in UTC16:50
Lumierekeeps it at 9:30 EST16:51
yvlby the way16:51
yvlLumiere, can you add me to #schooltool ops list16:51
menesis16:30 EET16:51
* yvl forgot how to use irc completely, by the way16:51
*** yvl changes topic to "SchoolTool development | SchoolTool 1.0 has been released! | IRC logs at | SchoolTool Dev meetings Mon, 14:30 UTC (16:30 EET, 9:30 EST) | Use for pasting | Write more unit and functional tests! Yes, you! | Build Status:"16:52
mgedminEST itself changes?  it doesn't change the abbreviation between EST/EDT?16:53
th1aWe're going from EDT to EST.16:54
Lumiereand someone is too lazy to fix it16:56
Lumiereanywayslet me try16:56
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Lumiereyvl: try /cs op #schooltool17:00
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yvlLumiere, thank you :)17:00
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yvlbad bot!17:01
Lumierehad to figure out how to add a template XD17:01
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