IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2009-07-06

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th1ayvl: You need to remind me of Lithuanian holidays.16:24
yvlsorry :)16:26
yvlyes, today is bank holiday here16:26
yvlso menesis probably won't be with us16:27
th1aThat's fine.16:27
th1aYou don't have to apologize -- you should be taking the day off!16:27
yvleverybody keeps saying that :)16:28
yvlstill, we have a release tomorrow, so...16:28
th1aYou can also remind me of Lithuania holidays when I choose a release date.  ;-)16:29
yvlthat would have been wise.16:30
* th1a goes to grab some more coffee...16:30
* yvl too16:30
th1aAlso, countries with a long history of occupation and liberation generate a lot of local holidays.16:33
th1ahi aelkner, Lumiere, moquist, Panentheos.16:33
yvlexactly :)16:34
yvlhello everybody16:34
aelknermorning all16:35
th1aaelkner: So are we all caught up on the gradebook bugs?16:37
aelknerhow do mean, 'all caught up'?16:38
aelknerthe critical ones are done16:38
aelknersome of the highs and mediums, too16:38
th1aOK, I guess I can check the bug tracker.16:38
aelknerdid you get the automatic emails when i changed the status16:39
yvlyes, thanks aelkner16:39
th1aThans for turning those around quickly.16:39
yvl looks nice now16:39
aelknerthere's one thing16:40
aelknerand to answer yvl's question16:40
aelkneri used the link with the student's name16:40
aelkneras the hook to get to the student gradebook view16:40
aelknerth1a: i know you wanted me to use a carot-type link16:41
* yvl wants to shoot that traverser - no offence intended16:41
aelknerbut i didn't get around to asking anyone if there was an example of that in schooltool16:41
th1aWell, a ">" would have worked.16:41
aelkneri could do that real quickly if you;d like16:42
yvlaelkner, how can you reach the view through UI?16:42
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aelknerright now by clicking on the student name16:43
aelknerbut if it's not too late, i can add a '>' link for that purpose16:43
aelknerand restore the student name link to take you to the student index view16:43
yvlin your gradebook?16:43
th1aPerhaps you could do that and
aelknersure thing16:44
th1aI did make some progress here:
yvlok, aelkner, can see that now :)16:45
aelknercool, gradebook docs!16:45
th1aSo those things will be documented there.16:45
aelkneryvl: so you're clear on what i'm changing after the meeting?16:46
aelknerthere will be a '>' next to the student name link16:46
aelknerthat will get you the student gradebook16:46
yvlyes, thanks16:46
aelknerand the student name link takes you to the student index view16:46
yvlaelkner, can you reply to the release notes I sent you and Tom?16:47
th1aI can polish them up.16:47
yvland CC me :)16:47
yvlyes, please16:47
aelknerwill do16:47
Lumiereyvl: when menesis and mg are back in tomorrow... I am hoping to run that svn update tomorrow16:48
yvlI tried to write them from "user's perspective" this time16:48
yvlLumiere, around this time, I think16:48
Lumiereyvl: which will mean getting them to swap the cando repository with one that I create16:48
aelkneryvl: the bzr log of my branch shows douglas' checkin comment with the bug he fixed16:49
yvlyes, but I don't know which bug16:49
aelknerit says so16:49
aelknerbug 39178716:49
Lumiereyvl: I hope it will be easy, but mg worked through what the steps are with me, so he will know more about what needs to happen then menesis16:49
yvlok Lumiere16:51
yvlI'll talk to them if anything16:51
th1ayvl: Should we do the release around this time tomorrow?16:51
th1aI want to announce the changes slightly before they hit the PPA.16:52
yvlyes th1a16:52
yvlaelkner, thanks, I'll update the notes for Tom16:52
th1aOK.  Cool.16:53
aelkneryvl: you also asked about using the comment score system16:53
th1aLumiere: So this switch is a step toward the svn > bzr conversion?16:53
yvlthat's the one question remaining :)16:53
aelknerfor now, only report sheet activities can use them16:53
th1aI'm going to try to have report sheets documented before I go to bed tomorrow.16:54
aelkner'Comment' appears in the pull down for activity category16:54
Lumiereth1a: yes16:54
th1aRight now it is just one undocumented detail in a big undocumented system.16:54
Lumiereth1a: we cannot run any of the bzr switching programs16:55
Lumiereuntil we have a clean svn16:55
Lumierewhich means getting rid of that .svn directory that cvs2svn introduced into the svn repo16:55
th1aAh yes, the recursive .svns.16:55
aelknerth1a: if your selenium scripts fail as a result of my gradebook changes, let me know16:55
th1aOh, the id thing.16:57
th1aYes, I'll let you know.16:57
th1aAlthough my main conclusion from all that was that just re-recording them was the quickest solution.16:57
th1amoquist: ayt?16:58
aelkneroh, i didn't mean that16:58
aelkneralthough that does matter16:58
aelkneri just meant, if the most recent changes breaks anything16:59
aelkneri can help you fix them16:59
th1aGenerally speaking it is easy to change them and I'd expect things to break when the UI changes.16:59
th1aIt was just those crazy gradebook cell id's that threw me for a loop.16:59
aelknerwhat's the html escape for '>'?17:00
yvl> ?17:00
* Lumiere notes that these selenium scripts will be good for f-testing long term17:00
aelkneryeah, if you submit a bug report for changing the cell ids, i can get that fixed for the next release17:00
th1aOK, but it isn't a big priority at this point.17:01
aelknerLumiere: yeah, i was thinking the same thing, but more as additionally rather than instead of17:01
* Lumiere never said instead of :)17:01
th1aI'll have a little better idea of how fragile they actually are after this upgrade.17:01
Lumierewe also need to run them on IE and Safari17:01
Lumiere(and write them across the board) as a way to ensure that we're working on browsers17:02
yvlthey're very fragile, as far as I know17:02
th1aYes, that too.17:02
Lumierethat is a big request we're getting for CanDo at this point17:02
Lumieresafari and IE support17:02
th1ayvl: the gradebook id's?17:02
aelkneri could address that annoying crash on log in timeout if it's not too late for tomorrow's release17:02
yvlselenium tests17:02
yvlin general17:03
yvlapologies if I misread something17:03
th1aYeah, they're inherently fragile.  At least they're easy to do.17:03
LumiereIE... will have a minimum version (I am not doing IE6 ever) and safari I just need a test17:03
th1aUnlike certain other kinds of tests.17:03
yvlalso true, th1a17:03
th1aI think we might have to do something on the server side to run selenium tests on other browsers (not firefox).17:03
yvlLumiere, won't the most of the problems be presentation bugs?  That we cannot test?17:04
Lumiereth1a: I am assuming we need to virtualbox or xen a windows instance somewhere17:04
Lumiereyvl: selenium takes screenshots of failed tests iirc17:04
Lumiereso you can review the presentation failure17:04
yvlhmm, maybe we can work something out...17:05
th1ayvl:  Basically, the gradebook cells have ids based on some mysterious number which changed when I switched from the release to trunk.17:05
yvlyes, at least review and confirm if this is the desired behaviour17:05
th1aI'll do some more Selenium research after the release.17:05
yvlwill wait for results :)17:06
Lumiereth1a: I think we want something like selenium grid long term too :)17:06
yvloh the pain, the pain...17:06
yvlcolleagues at POV started testing with selenium recently... I'll ask around ;)17:08
yvl+ buildbot, of course17:08
Lumiereyvl: yea17:09
Lumiereyvl: is menesis maintaining buildbot now too?17:09
* Lumiere is going to have to update cando buildbot and figure out how to get a dpkg built in the next week or soo17:10
th1aYes, it is getting to be that time.17:11
th1aYou'll be getting paid for this, Lumiere?17:11
yvlLumiere, yes, he is17:11
th1aOK, anything else?17:13
Lumiereth1a: yea, I am working for an internship program at ACC17:14
th1aAh, good.17:14
LumiereI doubt that they'll mind if I spend a few hours working ACC projects17:14
Lumiereespecially since my internships are SysAdmins ;)17:14
Lumiereth1a: the next generation of mattva01's17:14
moquistth1a: hi17:15
th1aNeed those.17:15
th1amoquist: Have any news or comments for the week?17:15
th1aWe're putting out a minor update tomorrow.17:15
Lumiereth1a: also, if jelkner hasn't already... I expect him to be very interested in the mahara+moodle+st integration17:15
moquistnope, other than that Joe would like access to a schooltool system and I can't provide him one for a few more days17:16
moquist(just to look around)17:16
moquistand we need to figure out a demo for him17:16
Lumieremoquist: will you be around this afternoon?17:16
th1aDo you want to do something VNC-like?17:16
Lumiereand what level of access does he need?17:16
moquistI'm in a big project this week, but planning to jump back into Moodle integration planning next week.17:16
moquistth1a: sure, something VNC-like would be fine, I expect.17:17
moquistLumiere: I will be around yes.17:17
Lumiereth1a: if you can't figure something out... I should be able to get a demo st up for him to play around on17:17
moquistLumiere: Not sure. He's probably interested in administrative access, but teacher access might also be instructive, at least if he can see the attendance system.17:17
Lumieremoquist: access was more asking if he wanted system access as well as login access :)17:18
th1aRealistically, a guided tour would probably be most helpful.17:18
aelknerth1a: for hide=delete, is it enough to just change the column heading from Hide? to Delete?, or do you want more explanation?17:18
th1aIn the short term.17:18
moquistLumiere: oh, heck no. I don't think Joe is much of an ssh-type-guy. :)17:18
th1aaelkner: That's fine.17:18
Lumiereaelkner: users don't care that you aren't actually deleting them :)17:18
moquistth1a: yes, I think the access to an example system will be 100% more valuable after a tour.17:18
moquistmaybe they should go together. :)17:19
Lumierethey'll just be estatic that you made it reappear when they accidentally deleted17:19
moquistso once a system is set up, there can be a VNC tour, and then he can play on his own.17:19
th1aI should learn how to set up an instance on E2C.17:21
th1aAnything else, gentlemen?17:23
yvlthere's quite a lot I wanted to talk about, but I'm afraid that will be too long for an IRC meeting17:23
yvlI think it's time to redesign action bar a bit17:24
yvl2) I'll want to rewrite (a little) the XLS importer/exporter17:24
yvl3) python2.4 support17:24
th1aAction bar needs some love, yes.17:25
th1aWe can keep going.17:25
yvl4) CanDo and SLA deb deployment is getting close... we could do some architectural stuff related to that (if needed)17:25
* th1a goes to pee.17:25
yvljust wanted to get those out in the open, I'll probably will start bugging you all with emails17:26
aelkneryvl: i'm doing a lot of changes to sla package this month, so that will effect any deb deployment that you set up17:26
yvlcan you send me a short summary?17:27
aelknerlater this month?17:27
yvlwhat you will be moving / removing / changing17:27
yvlon module level17:27
aelknerremoving narrative report cards17:27
aelkneri will be migrating their data to the new gradebook comments17:27
aelknermoving the intervention package to the schooltool egg17:28
th1aIt shouldn't create many packaging issues for SchoolTool other than that.17:28
th1a(moving interventions into SchoolTool)17:28
* yvl agrees17:28
th1aThe rest of is stuff only aelkner knows about anyhow.17:28
yvlI really want to introduce terms like "Application" "Core" and "Plug-in" into our dictionary17:29
yvlbut more on that later17:29
aelknerth1a: is there any reason for a deb for sla?17:29
aelknerit's just a custom package for them17:29
aelkneri probably didn't need to ask17:29
aelkneri'm guessing you want them to be able to apt-get update even for their custom package17:30
yvlas for action bar redesign... I have an idea how to do that, but it will take some dev time, and I don't have a mock-up right now17:30
yvland by some, I mean more than three days17:30
th1aIt needs to be done.17:31
yvlYes. Main reasons: dead ends in general, order of action buttons is often confusing, too many action buttons take too much space and it's not always obvious which button leads where17:31
th1aI agree.17:31
yvlthank you :)17:31
th1aPerhaps getting permissions under control is an even bigger priority though.17:31
aelkneri have a question for the group17:32
th1aBeing able to audit who can do what.17:32
aelknerdoes anyone know of an example for handling the session timeout issue17:32
* Lumiere would love to have a simple system to give permissions to groups and to see what permissions are hard-granted from the web17:32
yvlth1a, can I just skip most of the action-bar related bugs for now?  I don't want to do double work...17:32
aelknerIPerson(self.request.principal) crashes on timeout17:32
th1ayvl: yes.17:33
aelknercan someone point me to schooltool code for handling that?17:33
yvlhmm, it is handled somewhere in schooltool17:33
* yvl goes to look17:33
aelkneryvl: if you can't find it quickly, i will do the research17:33
aelkneri just thought, if you knew off hand17:33
aelkneror if ignas_ did17:34
yvlapp/browser/ does some handling17:34
yvlapp/browser/ also17:34
aelknerexcellent, thanks17:35
aelknerth1a: if i can get that handled today, would it be in time for this release?17:35
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aelknerof is that too much to put on yvl's plate, review-wise17:36
th1aI think so, although I'm not the one doing it.17:36
yvlth1a, when time permits... I'll start peeking at security17:36
yvlaelkner, please feel free to commit17:36
yvlI can always reject the fix ;)17:37
th1aThe first issue is simply creating some views that illustrate what each group can do.17:37
Lumiereyvl: the general issue is trying to balance customization with usability :)17:37
yvlisn't it always ;)17:37
Lumieremy understanding is we went from totally-insanely customizable17:38
Lumiereand totally unusable :)17:38
Lumiereto totally un-customizable but usuable17:38
Lumiereuntil you want to customize ;)17:38
th1aI'm primarily worried first about being able to clearly explain to someone what each role can do.17:38
th1aI'm still not very worried about customization.17:39
* Lumiere would like that programatically17:39
yvlI get a feeling, that grouping in action bars and explaining security permissions is closely related17:39
Lumiereyvl: likely17:39
yvlthough I can't put a finger on it yet17:39
Lumiereth1a: some of the districts looking at it for phase 2 pilot in va17:39
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Lumierehave that as a sticking point17:39
yvlwhen is that?17:39
th1aWhereas a slightly glitchy action bar is not going to be a sticking point.17:39
Lumiereyvl: lol :) july 15 initial package, august 1 data entry17:40
Lumieredata in by august 1517:40
* yvl is forgetful :/17:40
Lumierewhich is why I am pushing the svn thing tomorrow17:40
Lumiereand then working on packages with menesis17:40
th1aThe Moodle security pages are actually pretty clear.17:40
Lumiereth1a: yes17:40
th1aSimply displaying each role on a page by itself makes it far more legible.17:41
th1aI was still stuck in my head on the Zope grid o' death.17:41
yvlok, I'll spend some time on it and see what is sensible to do and by when17:41
th1aLumiere: Could you send yvl some Moodle screenshots?  Do you have a Moodle handy?17:42
th1a(of the permissions screens)17:42
Lumiereth1a: hmm I don't have any really recent moodles17:42
Lumieremoquist is likely the best option :)17:44
th1aAnything else?17:45
th1aThat gives yvl some things to chew on.17:45
yvlyes, thank you :))))17:45
th1anom nom nom17:46
th1aOk, well...17:46
th1aHappy Millennium Lithuania!17:47
th1aMay the next one be smoother than the first!17:47
yvlthank you!!!!17:47
th1aHave a great week, as well.17:47
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:47
moquistsorry; in a meeting17:47
yvla good week for you all17:48
* yvl leaves17:48
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moquistth1a, Lumiere: - login info shortly (after I remember the password)18:25
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