IRC log of #schooltool for Wednesday, 2009-05-27

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LumiereBillyD1234: nope, but maybe if you send a note to schooltoolers jelkner will make some03:33
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BillyD1234schooltoolers a bot?  Not seeing an email addy to send requests to on the website.  Do you have a link to a form/email?  Thanks for the reply off to work.13:10
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LumiereBillyD1234: it is a launchpad mailing list13:50
LumiereI'll poke th1a about getting it on the website13:51
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jelknerth1a: good morning tom!17:51
jelkneri had a great conversation yesterday with moquist17:51
jelknerhe cheered me up after our depressing visit to richmond17:52
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th1aYeah... I considered bringing up that angle to brighten up the meeting a bit, but I was getting tired.17:59
jelknerth1a: i don't think it would have helped18:00
jelknerthey were pretty unreceptive to new ideas18:01
jelknerth1a: did moquist reach you yesterday?18:02
jelknerhe told me he was going to call you while you were on your way to the airport18:02
jelkneroh, and i have a gradebook issue i need to discuss with you18:03
th1aI had my phone off.18:03
jelkneris now a good time to talk gradebook?18:04
th1aWell, my flight was delayed and Julia was wide awake at 4:00 AM, so...18:04
jelkneryou're tired18:04
jelkneri can wait18:05
jelknerbut not *too* long ;-)18:05
jelknersince i have to produce end of year reports soon18:05
th1aIt can't be too important or you would have thought about it yesterday.18:05
jelkneri did18:05
jelkneri talked to alan18:05
jelknerand mentioned it to you18:05
jelknerbut i thought you said we needed to discuss it later18:05
th1aWhat do you mean by "produce end of year reports"18:05
jelkneri been using the gradebook for 4 quarters18:06
jelkneri need to produce a final grade summary to hand in18:06
jelknerso that students get grades for the courses they took18:06
jelknerthe problem is18:06
th1aYou literally need a piece of paper?18:06
jelkneralan wrote a nice grade summary view last year18:07
jelknermy problem now18:07
jelkneris that when i changed the way grades are displayed in 4th quarter18:07
jelknerit effects all the previous quarters18:07
jelknerso students who had a 78% (C)18:08
jelknerare now showing B18:08
th1aThis is what I think you should do -- get Alan to write a script to convert all the old grades to the new score system in your DB.18:08
jelknerlet's talk about this when you've had some rest18:08
th1aI thought about it yesterday.18:09
jelkneri don't want to change the data from previous quarters18:09
jelknerso an 8 of 10 should still be 8 of 1018:09
jelkneri just want the final grades to show up right18:10
th1aWhat's the difference between the old grades and the new grades?18:10
jelknerthe new grades use the 4, 3, 2, 1, 0 system18:10
jelknerso 12.5 and below is an E18:11
jelkner12.5 to 27.5 is a D18:11
jelkner27.5 to 52.5 is a C18:11
th1aWhat did we change?18:11
jelkneri used the new configurable column to the left of the name18:12
jelknerto show grades that way18:12
jelkneri wanted to use it for this quarter18:12
jelknerin the future there is the more general case to consider18:12
jelknerrubric based assignments graded that way18:12
th1aWhy can't you use it in the previous quarters?18:12
jelknerbecause previous quarters already have grades18:13
jelkneri gave students who did nothing a 518:13
th1aBut they're wrong now?18:13
jelknerof 1018:13
th1aOh, because it is not configurable per worksheet.18:13
jelknersince a 78 last quarter was a C18:13
jelknerthey got a C on their report card18:13
jelknerbut it now shows up as a B18:14
jelkneri don't want anything from the previous quarters to change18:14
jelkneri just want the 4th quarter to work with the new rubric grading scale18:14
th1aHere's the thing Jeff, I'm not going to do a general solution to this problem at this point, because this is a weird case.18:14
jelknerwhy is it a weird case?18:15
th1aPeople don't change their grading systems during the year.18:15
jelknerbut they would use mixed systems18:15
jelknermy rubric system18:15
jelknerworks the way the app that david showed you yesterday (from his GMU class)18:16
jelknerbut for tests and quizzes18:16
jelknera 90 to 100 is an A18:16
jelknerwould still make sense18:16
jelknerso it is easy to see where you would want different grading scales for different kinds of assignments18:16
th1aIt is not the right way to do it.18:18
jelknerthat is, if we want assessment to be more meaningful18:18
jelknerwhat is the right way?18:18
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th1aThe right way is the way you did it the previous terms.18:18
jelkneri see18:19
th1aOr some variation on that.18:19
th1aBut regardless, if you'd been consistent the whole year everything would have been fine.18:19
jelknerour teaching practice should conform to our software18:19
jelknernot the other way around18:19
th1aMy main point is that accomodating people changing systems in the middle of the year is not a common case.18:20
jelknerof course it isn't18:20
jelknerbut i told you ahead of time i wanted to try this18:20
jelknerwe discussed it at length18:21
th1aI think you should be able to come up with a reasonable work-around at this point.18:22
jelkneri agree18:22
jelknera workaround now is best18:22
jelknergiven time constraints18:22
LumiereDepressing visit to richmond?18:24
th1aIt was fine aside from the fact that nobody has any money.18:24
jelknerLumiere: i was also disappointed with the way they handled it in the beginning18:26
jelknerit got better as the day went on18:26
LumiereI could have told you they had no money18:27
jelknerand several good things came out of it18:27
jelknerbut they started out very defensive (probably because they had no money)18:27
LumiereI'll need to stop by and chat with you and dwelsh (probably tomorrow)18:27
Lumierejelkner: who was coming out defensive18:27
th1aIt did start out emphasizing the negative.18:27
jelknerthe CTE folks18:28
jelknerseveral complaints about the pilot18:28
th1aIt was like, "OK, let's jump straight to what people DIDN'T like."18:28
jelknerbut i've read the feedback carefully, which is *very* positive over all18:28
th1aLuckily, we've all got positive enough self-images to take the lack of praise.18:29
jelknerinstead of, "we're sorry to say we don't have any money, but you guys did a great job"18:29
jelknerinstead, they went on the attack18:29
jelkneras if to justify not having money18:29
Lumierewell, they probably saw it more as a work session then a presentation18:29
jelknerit was weird18:29
Lumierealso, DOE stuff tends to start and get the negative out of the way first18:30
jelknerso basically, CanDo is on hold18:30
Lumierejelkner: I sort-of expected it18:30
jelknerthe only good news (and is seems to be *very* good news) is coming from california18:30
Lumierethey want it, they are not in a position to do anything at all18:30
th1aActually, essentially we're getting phase 2 pilot, where the goal is districts self-hosting CanDo.18:31
Lumierejelkner: take it as a positive that they put it on hold18:31
jelknerlooks like Chris Lehman may get his single sign-on system after all18:31
jelknerthat's true too18:31
Lumiereth1a: that's ****ing awesome actually18:31
Lumierethat's far beyond what I was hoping for18:31
jelkneran important opportunity to network18:31
jelknerand build community18:31
jelknerin support of ST18:31
th1ajelkner: Actually single-sign on has been working great for SLA all year.18:31
th1aWell, almost all year.18:32
th1aAfter a slow start.18:32
Lumiereth1a: I'd like to see us get a SSO module globally in 2009.1018:32
Lumiereso we can work with moodle/w-e to get it to work out of the box(ish)18:32
th1aIt would be easier if there was a widely used SSO standard amongst our users.18:34
Lumiereit would be easier if there were any widely used sso standards18:37
Lumierethat were easier to use then kerberos ;)18:37
jelknerLumiere: i'm going to have to talk to you about setting up an integrated ST, moodle, and mahara sytem for me18:37
Lumierejelkner: I'm going to have to wait for moquist to write documentation for me18:37
jelknermoquist says that should be ready for september use18:37
Lumiereprovide me the steps to install and I will18:38
jelknerthat will happen in august18:38
Lumierejelkner: actually, I'll probably want to do the ST/mahara for the global CanDo instance too18:38
Lumierethere are a lot of people who build digital-portfolios18:39
jelknerwe've been talking about that since the early days of cando18:41
moquistIf everything goes according to plan, we should have ST+Moodle with SSO, enrollment tracking, and gradebook transfer by the fall.18:47
moquistLumiere: If everyting goes according to plan, the ST/Moodle integration will be no more complicated than the Moodle/Mahara integration as documented here:
moquistIn fact, it will not only be no more complicated, it will look very, very similar to that.  :)18:48
moquistThere will be a few more config options, of course, because we'll be doing more than SSO.18:49
Lumieremoquist: well, my thing is I can do moodle... but the county uses Bb19:12
Lumiereso my preference is to do just ST+mahara19:13
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jelknerLumiere: still here?19:33
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moquistLumiere: Oh, I probably misread above. I was reading quickly.19:52
moquistLumiere: Mahara should come *almost* for free once ST+Moodle is going.19:53
jelknerLumiere: ping20:41
Lumierejelkner: I was in a testing room20:41
Lumierethen driving out to herndon20:41
jelknerhow is all that going?20:41
Lumierebut it is tiring20:41
jelknerwhen will you have some time to talk?20:41
jelkneri was just talking to my colleague, ann kennedy20:42
LumiereI am hoping to be at ACC tomorrow20:42
jelknershe wants to start learning moodle20:42
jelknercan we get our instance running?20:42
Lumiereit is20:42
jelkneris it one on which i can have admin?20:42
jelkneror should i run a separate one?20:43
jelkneri could have hgrover set it up20:43
Lumiereyou can have admin20:43
jelknerwho is using it now?20:43
Lumiereor at least course creator20:43
jelknermaybe i should ask hgrover to set one up20:43
jelknerfor two reasons:20:43
jelkner1. he would learn how20:44
jelkner2. i can experiment over the summer with plugins and addons without worrying about breaking it20:44
jelknerwe can talk tomorrow20:44
Lumierehe should learn to set one up20:44
Lumierehe should not run that as your production one20:44
jelknerthat's what i'm saying20:44
jelknerof course20:44
jelknerbut right now we don't need a production one20:45
Lumierethat way you can do #2 without ****ing your courses up20:45
jelkner(not til august)20:45
jelknerright now we need to play and learn20:45
jelkneryes, i agree20:45
jelknerwe won't setup our courses til august20:45
Lumiereas long as you're not needing plugins20:45
jelknerwell, we will make a list of what we want to use20:45
jelknerbased on our experiments20:45
Lumiereyou can make a test course on gctaa's moodle20:46
jelkneri want to look at the assessment items20:46
jelknerand explore all the different kinds there are20:46
jelknerout there20:46
Lumiereyou are assigned as admin of it20:46
Lumieresee msg for uri20:46
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jelkneryo bro!21:25
jelknerth1a says we need an ugly hack just to get me through this year21:25
aelkneryo back at you21:25
jelknernext year hopefully we can do it right21:25
th1aRealistically, you just need to make your grading consistent for the purpose of calculating the final grades.21:26
jelknerwell, there is not time to solve the problem in a good way21:27
th1aThere are a variety of things that could be done.21:28
jelknerwe just need some way for me to generate my final grade report21:28
* Lumiere boils it down to some sort of hack+view to make all the grades conform to 1 standard (or be understood in the same way) and a view to make the score come out the right way21:29
Lumiereso that jelkner can take the view and enter all the data to eS+21:29
th1aYou could pop open two views of the last semester.21:30
th1aChange the scores to match the old system in one.21:30
th1aCalculate the final grades.21:30
th1aGo back to the second unchanged window.21:30
th1aBack to normal.21:30
aelkneri need some context here21:31
aelknerfor instance, "old system"21:31
th1a6-10 scoring?21:31
aelknerwhat's that?21:31
th1aIf I understand correctly at this point, the first three quarters were scored 6-10 and the last one 1-5.21:32
th1aEach assignment, that is.21:32
jelknerthe first 3 quarters used a 0 to 100 system21:32
aelknerjelkner: did you create activities that had minum 6 and max 10?21:32
jelknerwith 90 to 100 being A21:32
jelkner80 to 89 being B21:33
jelknerthis quarter21:33
jelkneri'm trying to use rubric grading21:33
jelknerand i didn't give any tests or quizzes21:33
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jelknerto all assignments were on a 0 to 4 scale21:33
jelkner0 being E and 4 being A21:34
jelkneraelkner figured that the easiest way to make this work21:34
jelknerwas to compute the percent (as always)21:34
jelknerand change the scale to show 0 to < 12.5 as E21:34
jelkner12.5 to < 27.5 as D21:35
jelkner27.5 to < 52.5 as C21:35
jelkner52.5 to < 77.5 as B21:35
jelknerand 77.5 and above as A21:35
jelknerthat is working21:35
jelknerbut now my grades for the last three quarters are using the new scale21:36
jelknerwhich i don't want21:36
aelknerjelkner's arithmentic is off21:36
jelkner87.5 and up is A21:36
jelknerthat's right21:36
aelkner12.5, 37.5, 62.5, 87.521:36
th1aWhat do you even imagine the calculation for the final grade being?21:36
jelknerwhat do you mean?21:36
jelknersorry i screwed up the arithmetic21:37
th1aConvert the letters back into 1-4 number range and then average those?21:37
jelknerthe problem is only this:21:37
jelknerthe letters for the previous quarters are now wrong21:37
jelknerotherwise the final calculation would be the same as last year21:38
jelknerthe problem now is just that i want to configure left column by worksheet, not teacher21:38
th1aSo is the final calcuation supposed to convert letters back into numbers and average them?21:39
jelknerthe final calculation works the same way that 4th quarter works21:39
aelknerthe final calculation has until now always been a hard-coded conversion21:39
aelknerof the average of all worksheets to A, B, C, D, E21:40
aelkneraccording to the 90+ A rule21:40
jelknernot true21:40
jelkneran A and an E is a C21:40
aelknerah, sorry, i just looked at the code21:41
aelkner90+ = 421:41
aelkner60+ = 121:41
aelkner<60 = 021:41
aelknerthen average that all together21:42
aelkner4 = A, 3 = B, ertc.21:42
th1aI think jelkner might have to use his calculator.21:42
th1aAnd/or eyeballs.21:42
th1aTo calculate the final grades.21:46
th1aOpen a window with the correct 4th quarter grades.21:47
th1aIn another window turn off the new scoring system for averages and then get the scores from the first three quarters and do the calculation of the final grade.21:47
th1aUsually you can do that in your head.21:47
jelknerat this point i just want to leave the data in "official" form21:48
jelknerso if you make it so i can enter the data by hand, fine21:49
jelknersince schooltool is the only gradebook i use21:49
th1aWhich data?21:49
jelknermy gradebook21:49
jelknerwhich is in schooltool21:49
jelknerso i'll print it21:49
jelknerbut i also need to save it21:50
jelknerit is the "official" record of my grades21:50
th1aYou don't have to change the grades themselves -- you can just change the way the averages are calculated while you figure them out.21:51
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jelknerthe problem is that i can't change the grades and then change them back21:54
jelknersince if someone challenges a grate21:54
th1aNo -- you don't have to do that.21:54
jelknerdwelsh just called me down21:54
jelknercan we talk about this a bit later?21:54
th1aYou just need to see the correct averages for each term and then calculate the final by hand.21:54
th1aThat's the sanest solution.21:55
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