IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2009-05-18

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aelknerLumiere: what do you mean "playing TF2"?00:11
LumiereTeam Fortress 200:12
Lumiereaka a game00:12
replaceafillLumiere, how safe is changing cando from 2008.10.cfg to 2009.04.cfg?00:13
replaceafillLumiere, hi btw :D00:13
aelknerLumiere: i figured TF2 was a game, but didn't understand why you would kill a call as a result of playing a game00:14
aelkneror what you meant by killing a call00:14
aelknerlike kill 12345?00:14
aelknera process on jelkner's box?00:14
aelknerreplaceafill: so did you branch schooltool and manually change start-schooltool-instance to use it?00:15
replaceafillaelkner, i didnt branch schooltool00:15
aelknerwhat did you do then?00:16
replaceafilli changed downloaded
replaceafillcommented the schooltool.gradebook line00:16
replaceafillchanged the line in buildout.cfg to 2009.04.cfg00:16
replaceafill(a local file)00:17
replaceafillran bin/buildout00:17
replaceafilland it worked00:17
replaceafilli didnt run the cando tests though00:17
replaceafillthat's why i dont know if it's stable enough00:17
aelknerthat's a bit of a hack, yes00:18
aelknerwhat's the command you used to download 2009.04.cfg?00:18
replaceafillgo to the cando directory and use "wget"00:19
aelknergot it00:19
aelknerreplaceafill: the hack works for getting schooltool.gradebook/src to show up in start-schooltool-instance00:25
aelknerand it gets the latest schooltool egg, too00:25
aelknerthat might be enough00:25
aelkneri'm starting it now00:25
aelknerreplaceafill: hack or no hack, that was a great idea!00:26
aelknerit now works00:26
aelknerwe should discuss not having to hack this at tomorrow's meeting00:27
aelknerthanks a ton for your help00:27
replaceafilli'd ike to know if it's safe to get cando to use 2009.0400:27
replaceafillnp man00:27
aelkneryeah, and Lumiere will want to know about that, too00:28
aelknerLumiere: never mind about my bzr problem00:29
aelknerreplaceafill fond a way around it for me00:30
replaceafillaelkner, oh oh00:35
replaceafillFile "/home/elbixio/opt/sandboxes/cando/src/cando/gradebook/browser/README.txt", line 31, in README.txt00:35
replaceafillFailed example:00:35
replaceafill    browser.getLink('Edit').click()00:35
replaceafillException raised:00:35
replaceafillscoresystem edition :)00:36
replaceafilli guess getLink("Score System") would match Score System OR Score Systems, right?00:37
replaceafillmaybe it's a index thing00:37
aelkneryeah, maybe00:37
replaceafilli noticed Score Systems came first right?00:37
replaceafilland CanDo Score System at the end00:38
aelknernot in my case, the other way around00:38
replaceafillah ok00:38
Lumiereaelkner: I hit ignore00:43
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th1aHello gentlemen.16:30
aelknerhello back16:30
th1aHi jelkner, menesis, ignas, yvl, aelkner, moquist.16:30
yvlmorning guys16:31
th1aI see Lithuania elected a new president.16:32
jelknergood morning all!16:32
yvlyes, and I'm very pleased with the results ;)16:33
th1aI haven't quite figured out what it means yet.16:33
jelknerhey moquist, good to see you here!16:34
th1ayvl: Would you like to start us off?16:34
yvlI fixed the lyceum crash bug16:34
yvlfound another related to timetables16:35
yvland finally got a Data.fs reliably crashing teacher edit section view16:35
th1aThat's the bug you just reported?16:35
yvlthen did half of work on removing "edit groups" in section16:36
th1aDon't know what's causing it yet?16:36
yvlno, but it should be pretty easy to figure it out now16:36
yvlno idea how easy it is to fix it though16:36
aelkneryvl: regarding removing edit groups in section16:37
th1aAdding groups?16:37
aelkneryou are intending to write an evolve script for that, too, right?16:37
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yvlwrote it already, did not commit it yet16:38
replaceafillgood morning everybody16:38
yvlyes, th1a16:38
th1aGood morning replaceafill.16:38
yvlactually, I'm a bit confused about what "group" should mean to the users16:38
yvlbut that's ideological discussion, I guess16:39
th1aSomething you need to understand though.16:39
th1aWhat's the question?16:39
yvlwhat is a "group"?16:39
yvland how it should be used?16:39
th1aA bag of people.16:39
th1aGroups have calendars, for one thing.16:40
th1aGroups represent the structure of the school in various ways.16:40
th1aSo if your students are organized by form, you can represent those as groups.16:40
ignasyvl: at the moment groups are covering 3 different roles - "role, as in occupation - teacher, student", "group of interests, like judo or art or programming", and "level in some places, like 1a 2b"16:40
yvlok, I thought it should mean something like that16:41
th1aAlso, for reporting.16:41
th1aAlthough we don't do that much yet.16:41
aelknerreport cards can go by group16:41
th1aThe overload is just that we jammed the teacher/student/etc roles into standard groups.16:41
ignaslevel and form should be moved out of the groups, as for groups being both roles and groups of interests it does not really hurt, we just mark system groups as "you can't delete me"16:41
th1aYes, level is something that needs to be added, although it is not on the short-short list.16:42
th1aThat will eventually be yvl's job though.16:42
yvlthanks :)16:42
th1aWhat you should thank me for is not making you try to figure out the way Stephan and I wanted to implement it.16:42
yvlah, Stephan... thanks!16:43
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ignasyvl: hmm, the bug you reported seems like - "findRelatedTimetables returned an unrelated timetable"16:43
th1aThat was the peak of my "everything is a workflow" dementia.16:43
yvlIt seems that everyone has to go through that phase16:44
yvlno offense intended16:44
yvlignas, thanks16:44
ignasyvl: ahh, ok, there are 2 calls of findRelatedTimetables, one collects all timetables for a term another one for ttschema and we take "union" of those, while we want an intersection i'd say16:44
yvlas for groups...16:44
th1aI went thought the stereotypical phases.16:44
yvlI wanted to enforce "no IGroup in section.members"16:45
yvlany comments?16:46
ignasyvl: mgedmin did that in a pre relationship added subscriber16:46
aelkneryvl: you didn't answer my evolution question16:46
th1aaelkner: He didn't?16:46
yvlaelkner, well, I did ;)16:47
yvlI wrote the script today16:47
yvlbut did not commit it yet16:47
aelknersorry, i'm blind16:47
yvlignas, mgedmin did not do that16:47
yvlas far as I know16:47
yvlthere is isTransitive check16:47
yvlsorry; isTransitiveMember16:48
ignasyvl: i mean - as a solution for some other relationship enforcement problem16:48
yvlyes, that's the way I want to do that16:48
yvlthe question is - should I?16:48
yvlthat's why I asked about what "group" means...16:50
ignasyes you should16:50
ignasthere was the idea16:50
ignasof making "add group" to section action16:50
ignasjust add all the members to the section16:50
th1aIs that check left over from when groups were hierarchical?16:51
th1aThat was primarily removed because it was confusing.16:51
th1aThey are still hierarchical internally?16:51
ignasyou can't add groups into groups16:52
yvlhmm, ok then16:53
yvlbtw, th1a:16:53
yvlI'm starting to think about sending you a "bunch of questions (tm)"16:54
yvlnot as ambitious as Ignas' "BIG TODO list"16:54
yvlbut something along the lines16:54
th1aYou could even use Launchpad questions.16:54
yvlmainly questions "what we want to acomplish for the next release"16:54
yvlthe big landmarks: how friendly i10n should be? Plug-in development? Ubuntu universe/main deployment?16:55
yvlthings like that16:55
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yvlbut for now - I'd guess it's best to crunch on bugs16:56
yvland get some bugfix releases done16:56
th1ayvl: Actually, you're right that I haven't articulated that.16:56
th1aI've been caught up in writing documentation and we seem to have plenty of bugs to keep us busy for now.16:57
th1aBut I've got that in my head and will write it up Real Soon.16:57
Lumiereth1a: are there still documentation tasks left?16:57
th1aI have, at least, been grinding steadily on the documentation.16:57
yvlI know that I'm getting ahead of time here...16:57
LumiereI've been swamped with testing, but the light is 2 weeks away on that tunnel16:58
th1aActually, there is a lot left to write, because I'm being pretty systematic and going slowly.16:58
th1aAnd making selenium scripts for everything, which will be nice in the long run.16:58
th1aActually it is nice already, but takes more time.16:58
yvlth1a, you make me really happy ;)16:58
th1aThe scripts are in the book checkout.16:59
th1aThey can probably be turned into tests, too, or at least be run by buildbot at some point.16:59
th1aOr something.16:59
yvlhmm, we should think about that at some point17:00
ignastalk to mgedmin he knows how to do that stuff17:00
th1aOK, anything else, yvl?17:01
yvlI know >:)17:01
yvlno, I'm done17:01
aelknerlast week i finished the whole adding/viewing custom score systems feature17:03
aelknerand the application of the score system to the average column17:03
aelkneri deployed to jelkner's box17:03
jelknerand it rocks!17:03
jelknermy students will love it today17:03
aelknermuch thanks to Lumiere for diagnosing a problem and getting matt to add memory to jelkner's box17:03
Lumiereand I beat the crap out of the vm to make it work17:04
Lumiereth1a: I can say for sure you need 1G of free ram17:04
aelkneralso thanks to replaceafill for suggesting hack to get around bzr problem this weekend17:04
Lumierelxml needs ****ing 800mb to compile17:04
th1aI don't think SchoolTool needs that much to run though.17:05
Lumierebut to build it17:05
aelknerjust to build17:05
Lumiereyou need 800mb of ram17:05
Lumiereto run it, 1/2 gb is fine17:05
th1aDo we have to discuss what's next for aelkner?17:05
aelkneri'm not finished reporting17:06
aelknerso, one thing that is not available yet is the display of the hard-coded score systems17:06
aelknernor the ability to hide them if the user so chose17:06
aelknerthey can't be hidden because the new 'hidden' flag can only be set for a persistent score system17:07
aelknerit would require me to migrate the hard-coded score systems to the site manager17:07
aelknerthen the user would see all of them and be able to view them17:08
aelknerthis would require an evolution script, of course17:08
th1aAre there any other options?17:09
aelknerhow do you mean?17:09
th1aI mean, so that's what you are going to do?17:10
th1aAre you asking or telling?17:10
aelknerwell, that can in fact be what i do17:10
aelkneri was leaving that up to you, of course17:10
th1aGiving me the option of leaving the application in a broken state?  ;-)17:11
aelknerok, there is no option, it must be done, is that better? :)17:12
th1aI just know you're always hoping to be excused from writing evolution scripts.17:12
aelknerlastly, i fixed sla's broken data17:12
aelknerthe user ids with dots that they added before i fixed the bug17:12
aelknernow they have no more broken ids17:13
th1aPerhaps jelkner can write you a pass:  "Please excuse aelkner from writing evolution scripts this month.  He hasn't been feeling well."17:13
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th1aWhich system is that in for SLA?17:13
aelknerthe intervention system17:14
th1aAnything else?17:15
aelknerwho does the merging?17:15
aelknerok, i was gong to want to coordinate with yvl on merging my latest features17:16
th1aMake sure you get the evolution scripts done first.17:16
aelknerbut prehaps i should wait until i've added the evolution of the hard-coded score systems17:16
yvlaelkner - be careful when writing evolution for SLA17:16
yvlthere was an install script used at some point17:16
aelknerthis is not for sla17:16
yvland I don't remember now how it got sorted out17:17
th1aaelkner: We can discuss your next steps on the phone later in the week.17:17
aelknerth1a: ok17:17
yvlsomething like switching the evolve 1 off... or something else17:17
yvlwe can chat after the meeting about it17:17
aelknerthat's all for me17:17
th1amoquist: ayt?17:18
th1aI forwarded an email from moquist about planning Moodle/SchoolTool integration a few minutes ago.17:18
th1aBasically, we're probably going to do some work using Moodle's XML-RPC system, with funding from a school in California.17:19
th1aIt appears that is going to happen.17:19
th1aLumiere: Any news?17:19
th1ajelkner: Anything to add?17:20
replaceafilli started to work in cando again17:21
replaceafilli implemented a blueprint dwelsh wrote to export cando data to eschoolplus17:21
jelkneri'm in the middle of putting the planning email for the cando meeting17:21
jelknersorry replaceafill17:21
replaceafilli just have a question for dwelsh i'll ask later17:21
replaceafillnp jelkner17:22
replaceafilland one request for yvl17:22
replaceafillor menesis17:22
replaceafillcould it be possible to merge the csv import fixes i did last week to the 2008.10 branch?17:22
replaceafillso cando could use them17:22
replaceafilli started wondering yesterday if cando could use the 2009.04 branch17:23
replaceafilland made the tests pass, but i noticed the 2009.04 doesn't used optional identifiers anymore17:23
replaceafilland i guess cando does17:23
th1aIt has just been removed from the UI.17:24
aelknerreplaceafill: what did you do about the score systems problem?17:24
replaceafillyes, i remember aelkner working on that17:24
jelkner*big* improvement!17:24
replaceafillaelkner, it was just a testbrowser problem17:24
aelkneri know, what did you do?17:24
replaceafillusing the index=... parameter made it work17:24
replaceafill"Score System", index=117:24
aelkneri wasn wondering if perhaps i twould be better to just do an open on the url17:25
replaceafillwell, tests passed with the index parameter17:25
aelknerso that the test wouldn't be so sensitive to other links in the Manage area17:25
aelkneri understand, but i was just thinking of a way to avoid it happening again17:26
aelknerfor instance, index=1 only works if you have the new schooltool.gradebook egg17:26
replaceafillin order to make the tests pass i also had to change the addCourse calls in the tests17:26
aelknerthat doesn't even exist yet17:26
yvl(replaceafill - if you can file a request for merging to 2008.10 somewhere on Launchpad... I'l look at it.  Otherwise I will most likely forget - and I am sorry upfront :) )17:27
replaceafillyvl, :D17:27
replaceafillyvl, ok ill do it17:27
replaceafillaelkner, cause addCourse in the 2009.04 branch doesnt use the optional indentifier17:27
replaceafilland cando tests do17:27
replaceafillbut it is a small change17:27
aelknerah, i see17:28
replaceafillso, my only concern was the csv fixes merging, i guess cando can still use the 2008.10 branch17:28
replaceafillthat's all from me17:28
* th1a didn't follow that at all, but it sounds like you guys sorted it out.17:29
yvlwe'll if cando could migrate to 2009.04... some people here would be happy (-er) :)17:29
replaceafilli know17:29
aelknerit would make sense to do the migration soon17:30
LumiereI am hoping thursday or friday to do the svn update for cando so we can do our bzr transition17:30
replaceafillLumiere, do u think cando could use the 2009.04 branch?17:30
th1aI checked the project karma and missthom has been going nuts translating SchoolTool into Vietnamese, and now she has a question at the end of
th1aWho wants to try to help her?17:31
th1aI'll give you a cookie.17:33
th1aPerhaps menesis could give it a crack.17:33
moquistth1a: am now17:33
th1amoquist: Do you have anything you'd like to say to the SchoolTool team about what you're going to be doing?17:34
* moquist is multitasking but will keep checking back here17:34
th1aI forwarded your email to them.17:34
moquistI don't know if there's too much to say additionally right now, then. Brett is a former colleague of mine who has raved to me (positively) about zope in the past, so he and I will be in touch about the mnet protocol and how to get SchoolTool talking to Moodle (and then, hopefully, Mahara).17:35
th1aWhere Mahara is the portfolio system?17:35
moquistWe will have questions about how to get enrollment data (who is teaching what, and who is taking what) out of schooltool, and how to put grades back in.17:35
moquistMahara is a PF system, yes.17:36
th1aI'm not sure if the first step is to focus on getting data into SchoolTool from Moodle.17:36
moquistThe integration I'm planning between SchoolTool and Moodle is based on the same protocol and modeled on the same administrative experience as the integration between Moodle & Mahara.17:36
moquistOh, heck no.17:36
moquistI was just listing some things we'd have to talk about.17:36
moquistFirst is SSO, I think.17:36
moquistAfter SSO, then enrollments.17:37
th1aWhere Moodle is the authoritative sign on source?17:37
moquistAfter enrollments, then grades.17:37
moquistth1a: The Moodle+Mahara integration allows that to go either way; I was hoping we could do the same.17:37
* moquist finds the doc URL17:38
th1aUltimately, yes.17:38
moquistin the web interface (on each side) you check boxes: "We SSO in", "We SSO out"17:38
moquistI really need to get on the wiki spec page. That will have to make sense to both projects before we really get going?17:39
moquistgrr. ^?^.17:39
moquistI'm hoping to get to that today.17:39
th1aDon't hesitate to ask here for advice.  Our weekly meeting is here Monday at 9:30 EDT.17:39
moquistgood to know17:39
th1aAnd it ends at 10:30 so I'll wrap up.17:40
aelknerexcept nect week17:40
th1aLast bit of news if you didn't see it.  jinty is going to be working with the Debian maintainer of Zope 3 at UDS to17:40
th1aplan out a sane breakup of the monolithic Zope3 packages.17:40
th1aThat's a key step in us actually getting into Debian and Ubuntu.17:41
th1aThus, very good news.17:41
th1aHave a great week gentlemen!17:41
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:41
th1aOh -- meeting next Monday at the regular time.17:41
aelkneryvl: you wanted to meet?17:41
th1aIt is a holiday here but I'll be seeing all the US guys Tuesday.17:42
jelknerth1a: did you get my email?17:42
aelknerth1a: next monday is holiday, so no meeting, right?17:42
th1aSo attendance is not required by US folks other than me.17:42
th1aWe're meeting, but I'll see you Tuesday.17:42
th1amenesis: Ah, I misread her problem.17:44
yvlaelkner, the thing is that I don't remember how evolution install scripts work17:44
th1aI thought ST was only working on
yvland I need to check that before deploying on SLA17:44
th1amenesis: Thanks for the answer.17:44
menesisth1a: don't know but it seems the server is not running17:45
yvlwell, you mentioned you might want to write evolution script for SLA?17:46
yvlor did I misunderstood something?17:46
aelknerit was for schooltool.gradebook17:47
aelknerbut i did need to discuss with you what is needed for setting up first time evolution17:47
aelknerso what you did for sla is relevant to that quetsion17:47
aelknercan i follow your model of adding a generations package to schooltool/gradebook17:48
aelknerand have this file?17:48
aelkneris that what you wanted to tell me about?17:49
yvlI'm 90% sure that this should work correctly17:49
yvlbut I have a really bad memory...17:49
aelknerthe header comment says "Manually evolves to generation 1.  Done to avoid double deployment when17:50
aelknerintroducing generations."17:50
aelknerdo you remember what you meant by that?17:50
yvlthe install script is executed when setting up generations for the first time17:51
aelkneri see it just calls into evolve117:51
yvlthen the database version is set to the version in __init__.py17:51
yvlso in case of, say, version 117:51
yvlit does not execute evolve1.py17:51
yvlit just calls and sets the version17:52
aelknerdo you know why it calls
yvlZope's SchemaManager does that17:53
aelknerso zope looks for
yvlif it's not there, nothing is done17:54
yvlbut db version is set to the latest anyway17:54
aelkner so evolve1.evolve would be skipped, right?17:55
yvlbut manually executed from, when databes version is set to 117:55
aelkneri see17:55
yvlthe thing is, that should fail if we introduce evolve2.py17:55
yvland user deploys only then17:55
aelknerso the name of the module, evolve(n) is what zope uses to decide which evolution to run?17:56
aelknergiven the current generation number17:56
aelkneri seem that's cool, so i should do the exact same for schooltool.gradebook17:56
yvl90% yes17:57
aelknerwhere's the other 10% going to come from?17:57
yvlI'd like to check few things before voting next 10%17:57
yvlif you're not in a big hurry17:57
aelknerwell, tom just suggested that the next thing i do is exactly that, the evolution script17:58
aelkner, but there's no harm until you merge, right?17:58
aelknerso i'll go ahead and do it17:58
yvlwell, there may be harm for your sandbox17:58
yvlso keep a copy of your Data.fs somewhere17:59
aelknerwill do, thanks for the suggestion17:59
yvlother than that - go ahead :)17:59
aelknerthanks for the blessing :)17:59
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phufford_replaceafill: hi22:57
danielfolsomphufford_: #grokapps - get on22:58
replaceafillphufford_, #grokaps22:58
moquistdoes schooltool have any kind of auth/enrollment/grade plugin architecture?23:56
Lumieremoquist: for grading ask aelkner23:57
Lumiereauth I believe is pluggable23:58
moquistaelkner: knock, knock23:58
Lumiere(someone had been working on an ldap authentication system)23:58
moquistOK, that sounds very promising, then (for auth).23:58
Lumiereenrollment likely has an API, but I don't know23:58
* moquist nods23:58

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