IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2009-04-20

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ignasLumiere: you there?14:08
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Lumiereignas: back in 1515:01
Lumiereignas: ayt15:30
ignasLumiere: questions for section linking from XLS15:30
ignasLumiere: will having "Previous section" be good enough for you15:30
ignasLumiere: the field being section ID in the previous term15:30
Lumiereyesthat would be fine15:31
ignasyou'll only be able to link sections in consecutive terms15:32
ignasand probably only in the release version, won't make it into release candidate15:33
Lumierethat's ok15:33
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* th1a will be at the meeting.16:06
* th1a goes to get some coffee.16:07
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Lumiere'morning all16:10
jelknerLumiere: morning, mr straw16:17
Lumiere'night :)16:21
th1aHi ignas, yvl, menesis, aelkner, jelkner, Lumiere.16:30
ignasth1a: hi16:30
yvlhi guys16:31
th1aI managed to get a full night's sleep in.16:32
jelknerthat's good16:33
th1aHaven't read any work-related emails though.16:33
th1aMy general feeling at this point is that we do "release candidate 1" this Thursday and, if no issues come up, release the same code as final on the 30th.16:34
th1aTo give me time to get all the other stuff -- new website up, press release, etc. -- together.16:34
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th1aExternally I don't think I have been talking about the exact release date other than "April."16:35
th1aDoes anyone have an objection?16:35
replaceafillgood morning16:35
th1aignas: You've been planning on working until the 30th, right?16:36
ignasth1a: yes16:36
ignasth1a: ok, I will have RC1 in the evening16:36
ignas(my evening)16:36
ignasworking on it at the moment16:36
ignaswith menesis, who is sitting beside me16:36
ignasfixed one typo, so should have working schooltool package any moment now on my PC16:37
ignaswill upload it as soon as I am sure it works16:37
th1aOK, let's do updates -- assuming I haven't read your other emails from this weekend yet.16:37
ignasworked on xls export of sections16:37
ignasseparated sections into separate worksheets per term16:38
aelknerignas: can you do another merge of my gradebook branch before releasing?16:38
ignasalso fixed the event resource bug when exporting sections without any resources assigned16:38
ignasaelkner: one more, changed anything since friday?16:38
ignasth1a: also moved gradebook tab to the left of the Manage tab16:38
ignasth1a: it seems aelkner put it there intentionaly ;)16:39
ignas(ther - to the right of active school year)16:39
th1aEveryone likes to think their parts are special.16:39
ignasalso I did some merging16:39
ignasthat's about it16:39
aelknerignas: yes, i made changes this weekend16:40
ignasaelkner: ok, will merge it16:40
* th1a is not completely convinced years need to be bold either. ;-)16:40
aelknerignas: thanks16:40
ignasth1a: they are  bold16:41
ignasth1a: so that "next year" when you add it16:41
ignasth1a: could be smaller ;)16:41
th1aWhen I write a component yourself, it is going to require a <blink> tag in the menu bar.  ;-)16:42
yvlwell, I managed to get sick again16:43
yvlsome Lemony Snicket stuff, I guess16:43
* th1a is going to ask Aiste to add some vitamins to the POV water cooler.16:44
yvlthanks ;)16:44
yvlcommited the report header templates today16:44
yvlso I can manage to integrate report headers just before RC116:45
yvlcurrently I'm rewriting calendar pdf views (for last hour or so)16:45
th1aAh, good.16:45
yvlso we have an example how to use RML in the codebase16:46
yvlnext follows the gradebook16:46
yvlgradebook reports16:46
th1aIs there the equivalent of CSS for RML?16:46
yvlemm, not exactly16:46
th1aI guess you probably just write that in Python.16:46
yvlbut there is <stylesheet> directive in RML16:46
yvlso you can set up at least styles for paragraphs16:46
yvlso, no need for Python16:47
yvljust that you won't get a separate stylesheet used on all RMLs16:47
yvlbtw, I ran into a lot of quirks while writing this16:48
th1ayvl:  That's why I wouldn't have *made* you do it.16:48
th1aYou had to go in by your own free will.16:49
yvl... but I really wanted that feature... :))))16:49
th1aI agree.  It is a huge win if we can make it work in the long run.16:49
yvlmy only pity is that it's not that obvious to the users16:50
th1aNot yet.16:50
th1aAre you finding bugs in the RML implementation?16:50
yvlno, just small things that I need to work around16:50
th1aIs it actively maintained now?16:50
th1aOr are we inheriting it?16:51
yvldoesn't seem so, it stabilized a year ago or so16:51
th1aDid Stephan do most of the work on it?16:51
yvlas far as I know, yes16:51
yvlor at least he supervised it16:51
yvland there is some newer commits with Chinese support16:52
th1aOh -- Ignas... we have to update the "about" page in SchoolTool before I forget.16:52
yvlbut I didn't look closely at it16:52
th1aAdd menesis to the "release manager" line.16:52
ignasth1a: ahh, yeah16:52
th1aHe can share the title with jinty for this release.16:52
th1aAlso we have a couple new contributors.16:53
th1aI don't think Douglas is on there.16:53
ignasth1a: just send me a patch ;)16:53
ignasI am prone to misspell a name, or miss the surname ;)16:53
ignaspackages are working, uploaded to gutsy PPA, if they build, will forward port them all the way to jaunty16:54
ignaswill merge changes by yvl, aelkner and fixes to the about page and release it again16:55
aelknerwell, i got in all the features we dicussed17:00
aelknerkind of wondering what to do next17:00
th1aOK.  We can come back to that.17:00
replaceafilli worked on the gradebook xls export17:01
replaceafillit creates a xls worksheet per gradebook worksheet17:01
th1aaelkner: Actually, SLA had some issue last week, so get in touch with them about that for starters.17:02
replaceafillmy only question was if it's ok to put the Export XLS link in the Worksheets view17:02
replaceafillbut th1a had trouble on friday with his instance :)17:02
th1aWhat was the question again?17:02
replaceafillI put the "Export XLS" link in the "Worksheets" view17:03
replaceafillthat's the view where you can see all the worksheets in the gradebook17:03
th1aThat's fine.17:04
th1aI think.17:04
replaceafillok, and as alkner im wondering if i could help with anything else17:04
th1aWhat's the other choice?17:04
replaceafillto put it on the gradebook view17:04
replaceafillbut that could be confusing17:04
replaceafillcause the user could think that they are going to export only the active worksheet17:05
replaceafillnot all the gradebook worksheets17:05
th1aOH.  No, I would put it there.17:06
th1aAnd export all the worksheets.17:06
th1aPut it both places.17:06
replaceafillah ok, will do then17:06
replaceafillthats all17:06
th1aGetting extra worksheets is not a problem.17:06
* Lumiere suggests a plastic bubble existance for yvl :)17:07
th1areplaceafill: Why don't you take a look at the bugs in Launchpad.  There are plenty ;-)17:07
th1aAnd I have spent some time recently re-prioritizing them.17:07
replaceafillah ok17:07
replaceafillwill take one then17:07
th1aFeel free to assign a few to yourself.17:07
ignasaelkner: did you fix ?17:09
aelknerno, i wasn't sure how old that bug was17:10
th1aignas: We're going to need some release notes.17:10
aelkneris it still true?17:10
th1aIs it assigned to you?17:10
ignasaelkner: don't know17:10
ignasLumiere: by the way  - did the section member import view work?17:11
Lumiereignas: it seems to have17:11
Lumiereat least locally17:11
th1aaelkner: It is your job to check.17:11
aelknerfine, will do17:11
LumiereI have not checked with Lee yet17:11
Lumierewill do from Herndon (once i have long distance access)17:11
Lumiereyay for schools that don't give staff Long Distance17:12
th1aaelkner: If you'd checked you'd see I assigned it to you less than a month ago.17:12
th1aI don't think it is still a bug, but you should double-check it.17:12
ignasreplaceafill: if you would find the section member csv import view commit in the 2008.10 branch, you could fix by adding some tests, and giving me a patch to merge into trunk...17:12
aelknerth1a: i'm thinking the same thing17:13
aelkneri'll change the status if it's no longer a bug17:13
th1aThat's the idea.17:13
replaceafillignas, thanks17:14
ignasth1a: there will be a lot of Fix Commited -> Fix released when I am done with packages17:15
th1aignas: One would hope.17:16
Lumierelets see17:17
Lumiereignas worked with me for a few hours on group membership import17:17
Lumiereand found at least 1 bug in the xls import17:18
Lumierehaving to do with how stupid spreadsheet programs are about numbers17:18
ignasbut I found a workaround17:18
th1aToo stupid or too smart?17:18
ignasso - oofice can mark numbers as "text"17:18
ignastoo smart17:18
Lumiereth1a: too smart17:18
ignasbut you have to know how17:19
Lumiereall CanDo changes up to last thursday have been merged and released to both ACC and State Pilot17:19
Lumierethank you to replaceafill for putting up with me for 2 hours17:19
Lumierewhile I beat on svn's merge capability17:19
Lumiereor lack of sanity thereof :)17:20
th1aYes thanks replaceafill!17:21
th1aOK.  Am I missing anything or anyone at this point?17:21
Lumieredon't think so17:23
th1aaelkner: Here's what I'm thinking for you -17:23
th1a1) talk to SLA;17:23
th1a2) look at the bugs in Launchpad and fix some;17:23
th1a(like I said, I sorted through them last month, so most irrelevant cruft from 2005 isn't in your way)17:24
th1aAnd you can use the advance sort to get some pretty useful views.17:24
th1aIn fact: use the advanced sort.17:24
th1asearch, that is, not sort.17:24
aelknerwill do17:24
aelkneri knew what you meant17:25
th1a3) start planning out moving SLA to school years.17:25
th1aWith the assumption that won't be deployed this school year.17:25
th1a(so it is not pressing)17:25
aelkneryou know, i already changes the code to handle school years, but then i couldn't deploy it17:26
th1aaelkner: Oh.17:26
aelknerbecause we had our release, and they had the narratives to write17:26
th1aWell, I guess that's good.17:27
aelknerit handles school years with teh core schooltool stuff17:27
aelknerbut the intervention objects need to be reworked17:27
aelknerso i could plan out what needs to be done with that17:27
aelknerand send you an email with the plan17:28
th1aAnother thing you could think about is how to handle comments within the report sheets / report cards framework.17:29
th1aThat would make sense for SLA, right?17:29
aelkneri'm not sure what you mean17:30
th1aTheir narratives?17:30
th1aThat should be drawn into our general report card system.17:30
aelkneri don't see how you mean that17:32
aelknerthe gradebook has no provision for all the functionality the the narratives have17:32
aelknerit's nt even close to having anything like that17:32
th1aI'm telling you the gradebook *needs to* have functionality like that.17:33
aelknerlike html editing17:33
aelknerperhaps you could explain your vision of how that would look17:33
th1aLuckily, we've done that once already.17:33
aelknerthe data model is completely different17:34
th1aBasically, I think you'll have to click on a cell and then get a pop up or new page to enter the comment.17:34
th1aHow different can the data model be?17:34
aelknerwell, only completely diffetent, but besides that...17:35
th1aAnyhow... let me end the "formal" meeting and we'll continue discussing this.17:36
aelknerbut if you want to add comments to the schooltool.gradebook data model, that's one thing17:36
th1aSo I'm going to be in and out but not getting much substantial work done for the next couple days.17:36
Lumierereport cards need narrative pieces17:36
jelkneryes they do17:37
Lumierethe trick is limiting the length of a comment17:37
th1aJennifer is coming home tomorrow and we'll have help around the house for the next two weeks.17:37
th1aCan we hold off on this for just a minute?17:37
jelknerth1a: since tomorrow won't be good for you, can i ask a quick question now about process for moving forward?17:37
th1aYou guys are breaking my fragile train of thought.17:38
jelkneri'll be rubric grading this quarter17:38
jelknerin fact, i've already started17:38
Lumierejelkner: wait a moment17:38
th1ajelkner: Heel!17:38
jelknerto late17:38
jelknerthe cows already out of the barn17:38
jelkneri talked to you about this last week17:39
jelknerlook, i've been *very* patient17:39
jelkneri've been waiting for 1.0 for months17:39
th1aAnyhow, just in terms of the next day or so I've realized that it is pretty important to try to get a presenting slot at the Gov 2.0 conference, and I have to write that proposal by tomorrow.17:39
th1ajelkner: wtf?17:39
jelknerif i don't do this 4th quarter, it will prevent me from having the practical experience i want going into our summer planning17:39
Lumierejelkner: and you can't wait 5 minutes for th1a to finish his thought17:40
jelknerwhat do you mean wft?17:40
Lumierebefore jumping in17:40
jelknerwell, i have students coming17:40
th1aSo anyhow, I'll be pretty absent the next couple days and then I should be able to wrap the rest of this stuff up.17:40
jelkneri was going to bring this up tomorrow17:40
jelknerbut th1a just said that won't work17:40
th1ajelkner: I don't know if it will work.17:41
th1aJust chiill jelkner.17:41
th1aThere is no problem here.17:41
th1aOK.  Thanks for your good work everyone the past couple weeks.17:42
th1aWe've exceeded my expectations for this release.17:42
th1aHave a great one!17:42
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:42
replaceafillbrb going to work17:44
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th1aOK, so aelkner, jelkner and I will have a meeting tomorrow about planning out grade scales for the gradebook.17:46
th1aSo that'll be in your mix too aelkner.  We just need an hour to spec it out.17:46
th1aNow -- comments.17:46
th1aSo SLA twice a year sends home a report card of sorts which is just comments, right?17:47
th1aUsing SchoolTool.17:47
aelknernot just coments17:47
aelknergrade (not like our gradebook score), assessments, and comments17:48
aelknerso there's nothign similar about the two17:48
th1aOK, explain these things too me again.  How is the grade not like a gradebook score?17:48
aelknerthere is no score system for SLA narratives17:48
aelknergradebook scores are kept as annoations on the person object17:49
th1aI don't care about that.17:49
th1aFrom the user's point of view.17:49
aelknerthe key being the gradebook activity17:49
aelknerthe user's point of view17:49
aelknerin the gradebook case, the user goes to the gradebook17:49
aelknerin the narrative case, the user goes to the section interventions view17:50
aelknerthe data kept in two entirely different places17:50
th1aNo no no.17:50
th1aI don't care about that.17:50
aelknerand the user uses two entirely different views17:50
th1aThat's not the question.17:50
th1aLook, the generic SchoolTool report card system should be able to handle the type of reports SLA is doing.17:51
th1aThat's my point.17:51
th1aWe don't want SLA to have a separate system.17:51
th1aFor these reports.17:51
th1aWe want SchoolTool to be able to do it in our standard system.17:52
th1aDon't start by thinking about your data model.17:52
th1aPut it out of your mind.17:52
th1aA principal should be able to create a report sheet that includes a "comment" field.17:53
th1aAnd then include the contents of that field in a report card.17:53
th1aDon't think about what evolution script you'll have to write.17:54
aelkneri think about the gradebook as a rows and columns of singular cells17:56
aelknerthe cels containing a score17:56
aelknerthis is from the user's pojnt of view, not data model17:56
aelknerin sla's case, there is only one thing to report for a student/section pair17:58
aelknerand that one thing is a set of there values17:58
aelknerscore (though there's no scoresystem specified), assessments, and comments17:58
th1aSo score is freeform text?17:58
th1aAnd assessments is text?17:59
ignasit's not one thing then, it's 3 things ;)17:59
th1aAnd comments is text?17:59
aelkneryes, and yes17:59
th1aSo essentially, we need two things.17:59
th1aWe need to be able to look at this in our regular spreadsheet view, click on a cell and get a text entry widget/page.18:00
th1aOr ideally we have an additional way of looking at this which is a little more optimized for text.18:00
aelkneryeah, clicking on the cell gives it focus, so the first idea would not be good18:01
th1aLike, you click on the student name and you get not a grid layout but actually more of our standard auto generated form layout with just a page of fields.18:01
th1aWell, there will have to be a new kind of cell that does something different when you click on it.18:01
ignasth1a: added and Justas, Douglas to the contributors part, and Gediminas to the release managers part18:03
th1aThanks, ignas.18:04
th1aaelkner: I'm not saying this is a *small* change.18:04
th1aBut it is also not an edge case.18:05
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th1aAsk for something to do and ye shall receive.18:06
ignasth1a: ok, packages are in jaunty, now I just need to wait for menesis to come back to the office and test them18:08
ignasand maybe update them if needed18:08
th1aaelkner: Are you alive?18:09
th1aTry breathing into a paper bag.18:09
aelkneryeah, sorry i got a phone call from my grandmother18:09
th1aOK.  :-)18:09
aelknerso, i'd love it if you would write up how the user would enter the narrative data18:10
aelknerif clicking on the cell takes you somewhere, then how do they give a cell focus18:11
aelknerto change it's score18:11
aelkneri don't see how it's very nice to throw away the spreadsheet functionality18:11
aelkneri would rather have an alternate view to the gradebook overview18:12
th1aIt is a special kind of cell.18:12
aelknerthat view, not activing like a spreadsheet18:12
th1aWell, often there will be a mix.18:12
aelknerfor starters, we just got done limiting the size of a column to five characters18:13
th1aThat's fine.18:13
aelknerand the cells contains scores18:13
aelknerhow would we present the comments and assessments?18:13
th1aYou're not going to be able to read the text from the spreadsheet view.18:13
th1aJust whether or not you've entered something.18:14
th1aSo you can see what's done.18:14
aelknerso, if the cells contained the input box AND a small button18:14
aelknerthat itself was colored (or shaped) to reflect the existence of data18:15
th1aCan't you just us an "if" statement to check to do different things when you click on a cell depending on the type of activity?18:15
aelknerclick on the button to add/edit18:15
aelknerah, that's different18:15
* th1a is flexing his programming background.18:15
aelknerof course, we can have the cells behave differently by score system18:16
aelknerwhat would you suggest the score system to be in SLA's case18:16
th1aProbably the equivalent of textline and textarea.18:17
aelknerwhat about the three values that SLA uses18:18
aelkneranother way of putting it is18:18
aelknercould you just specify the behaviour you want18:19
th1aTwo textlines and a textarea?18:19
aelknerSLA has on texline and two test areas18:19
th1aSo from the teacher's point of view, they're looking at a reportsheet with three columns.18:20
aelknerso, if we have a special score system that allows the user to enter those three values18:20
th1aThey can click on a cell and (ideally) you just get a javascript "window" into which you enter the value for that cell.18:20
th1aThere would be a textarea score system and a textline score system, I guess.18:20
aelknersla narratives use the FckEditor to enter html markup18:21
aelknerthat would not be possible in javascript18:21
th1aThat's fine.18:21
th1aWell, I don't know the details.18:21
th1aI've never used the newfangled javascript popup windows.18:22
th1aI don't exactly care about how you get to that window, except quick is good.18:22
th1aFor starters, a page load would work.18:22
* ignas just removed the example of ajax generated FCK editor form from lyceum.journal18:22
aelknerwhy was that?18:24
ignasth1a asked me to remove the lesson description boxes from journal views18:24
ignasth1a: got jaunty by any chance?18:24
th1aI do.18:25
ignasth1a: apt-get update and upgrade18:25
ignasto see if your schooltool is still working18:25
aelknerth1a: ok, i've got plenty to think about now18:26
aelkneri should look at lyceum.journal diffs18:26
aelknerand learn ajax18:26
th1aignas: Is the package sitll schooltool-2008?18:27
ignas2008 will do18:27
ignaslater you can install 2009, but it will require stopping 2008 (same port)18:27
ignasand copying Data.fs and so one18:28
ignasand it's python packages that I am worried about18:28
ignasat the moment18:28
ignasand thanks for reminding, i think i did not forward port schooltool-2009 :)18:28
ignasOK, I did ;)18:29
th1aignas: Also, I think the dev build scripts need to be changed to get python2.4-dev explicitly.18:31
th1aOr something like that.18:31
ignasth1a: schooltool works with 2.518:34
ignasso - makefiles should be updated to use 2.5 now18:34
ignasbut yes, sandboxes will have to be reviewed18:34
ignasas schooltool can work on both 2.4 and 2.5 now18:35
ignasbut not 2.618:35
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ignasth1a: is it working?18:43
th1aPerhaps not...18:44
th1aNo module named reportlab.lib.18:45
ignaslisppaste5: url18:46
lisppaste5To use the lisppaste bot, visit and enter your paste.18:46
ignasfull error please18:46
ignashmm, sudo apt-get install python-reportlab18:49
ignasis telling you what?18:49
lisppaste5th1a pasted "jaunty-bug" at
th1aIt wasn't installed.18:50
ignasI see18:50
ignasmust be lacking dependency18:50
ignasth1a: thanks, will fix this one in the next build18:52
* th1a goes to take a shower and go do the hospital.18:53
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Lumierehmm I might have to install personas on my mothers firefox20:33
Lumiereand see if I can freak her out20:33
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Lumiereaitch100s76: can we help you?23:12
Lumiereaitch100s76: or are you just going to keep joining and parting23:12
aitch100s76it must be my connection is up and down23:13
Lumiereok :) I just notice when people are joining and leaving a lot :)23:13
Lumieresometimes it is a signal of something not good... (I'm former Freenode Staff, I tend to be a touch paranoid about stuff like that)23:14
aitch100s76I'll disable the account in pidgin for now23:14
Lumieredon't worry about it23:14
aitch100s76no - on a wireless internet service23:14
aitch100s76i wonder how things are at Tom's house with the new baby23:15
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