IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2009-04-13

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ignasLumiere: ayt?15:45
Lumiere hi15:51
Lumiereignas: I am now15:51
ignasLumiere: is it holiday in US today?15:52
ignas*a holiday15:52
Lumiereit is a Teacher Work Day for APS15:53
Lumiereso students are off15:53
ignasI see15:53
Lumierebut I have no idea if th1a is planning to meet15:53
ignaswe won't be having yvl and menesis most probably15:53
ignasbut I am always here ;)15:54
Lumierewell th1a has to be here before we can meet...15:54
Lumierealso yvl is at the office :)15:54
Lumiereor he has xchat automagically starting at 7am my time15:55
ignasyvl: are you at the office?15:55
yvlwell... yes.15:56
yvlbut not for long :)15:56
yvlfor some reason I did not expect to have a meeting today15:57
LumiereI don't know that we are15:58
Lumiereth1a's usually here by now15:58
ignasyvl: nobody expects the "schooltool irc meetings"16:00
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Lumiereand th1a arrives... meeting today?16:09
th1aIs there any reason we wouldn't?16:12
ignasEaster ;) but I am online, and that's all we need ;)16:12
LumiereI will be a little late to the meeting16:20
Lumierebut I think I should be here for some of it16:20
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th1aGood morning ignas, yvl, aelkner, replaceafill, Lumiere.16:30
replaceafillGood morning everybody16:31
th1aHow are we doing, ignas?16:31
ignaswell - updated XLS import/export16:32
ignasto match the documentation16:32
ignasinclude demographics16:32
ignascan't recall whether we did translations last week or the week before the last one16:33
ignasadded a way to attach contacts to a person16:33
ignasnot commited yet16:33
th1aI switched the preferred series in LP.16:33
ignaswill have some questions about the details of contact - person UI16:33
ignasand that's about it16:33
ignasI am planning to do contacts16:33
ignasmaybe add a way to mark absences as explained16:34
ignasthough I have a couple of questions about it16:34
th1aThat worked for Lyceum at some point, right?16:34
ignasbut we should do those after the meeting16:34
ignasyeah, but as we want UI for teachers16:34
ignasit has to be a bit different16:34
ignasand I have an idea how we can do it conveniently for users16:35
ignasand conveniently for us ;)16:35
th1aYes I hadn't thought about that aspect of it.16:35
ignasmy idea at the moment is to add "x" key16:35
ignasthat would toggle absences between explained and not explained16:36
th1aThe teacher/school level thing.16:36
ignasin the section journal view16:36
th1aThat makes sense.16:36
ignaseasy to do when javascript is enabled16:36
ignasthe problem is - i don't know how to do it without java script conveniently16:36
ignasso we either come up with something16:36
ignasor just leave it for after release16:36
ignasand assume that people using schooltool at the moment have modern browsers16:37
th1aWhat makes it hard without Javascript?16:37
ignaswell - the entry field only has the "value" you are entering16:37
ignaswhether a grade16:37
ignasor an "A" "T" mark16:37
ignasfitting "explained" somehow into the same field is not really an option16:37
ignasso we would have to add an additional set of checkboxes for all the absence/tardy fields16:38
ignasdoable probably, but will look ugly16:39
th1aOK... we should probably not jam this in then.16:39
ignasif I will come up with something good along the way, I will add it, but ajax interface comes first in this case16:40
th1aWe might just need a separate view.16:40
th1aI forgot this would get involved.16:42
th1aSo we'll move this back a bit.16:42
th1aAnything else?16:42
ignashmm, menesis is not here16:42
ignasbut I know what he was doing16:42
ignashe worked a bit more on the Jaunty release16:42
ignasand packaged 2 additional dependencies that yvl needs for gutsy ... jaunty16:43
th1aSo we'll have RML support internally now?16:43
ignasyvl: will we? ;)16:43
ignasone of them was very tricky so I am glad I had him to do it, and could concentrate on the code16:43
yvlignas, yes16:43
ignasyvl: I will need you to check the packages and see if your code works with the packages in intrepid16:44
ignasyvl: that might require some python path mangling, but is doable16:44
ignasyvl: I had managed to run bare schooltool checkout on debian packages with some effort16:45
ignasonce when I had to test stuff16:45
* th1a will be a lot more able to make reports with RML.16:45
ignasthat's it for me16:45
th1aWe'll need an example of how to wire up a RML report.16:46
ignasoh, next week menesis will work on PoV internal product till the end of the week when the big merge + release comes16:46
th1aignas: OK.16:46
th1ayvl: You're up.16:46
yvlI'm finishing the RML support now16:47
yvlshould be ready on Tue / Wed16:48
th1aWhat's the status of headers?16:48
yvlit's the same issue16:48
* th1a wonders if we should just let people upload RML.16:48
yvlerm... no16:49
yvlit's just too volatile16:49
yvlin my opinion16:49
ignasprone to blowing up in tracebacks? or prone to coming out completely wrong?16:49
yvltracebacks that are not so obvious16:50
yvlunless you are a developer16:50
ignasnot that there are many tracebacks that users understand anyway16:51
th1aIs that because of the way the RML support is coded, or because ReportLab is crazy?  Or both?16:51
yvlthe RML support16:51
yvlits good, but exceptions could use some wrapping16:52
th1aIt probably doesn't have end-user generated code in mind.16:52
yvlTypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'cStringIO.StringI' objects16:52
th1aWell, we'll probably be discussing this again in November.16:52
yvlI wrote the image file name incorrectly here16:52
yvlI think we should just stick with RML being available for developers now16:53
th1aRight.  I'll be asking if we can make it work for next spring though.16:53
th1aIf we can make it work it is a major, major feature.16:54
Lumierelol yvl I understand that message16:54
Lumierewhich is sad16:54
ignasLumiere: no you don't ;)16:54
Lumiereignas: uh well I would need the rest of the traceback to be sure, but understand what both of those types are16:55
th1aSo anyhow, were are we with the headers?16:55
Lumiere(most of my background is C... not python)16:55
yvlfew hours to completion, from where I stand16:55
yvlto the point were we have two systems :)16:55
yvlone hooked on RML, and Alan's report16:56
yvlthen several hours to merge those16:56
yvli.e. rewrite the flowable generation part in Alan's reports as RML template16:56
yvlso, that's the plan for this week:16:57
aelknerwe're n ot dong that for 1.0, are we?16:58
yvlI'm afraid we are...16:58
aelknermust we?16:58
aelknerif not using RML works, then why must we use it?16:59
th1aWell, I guess we have an RML header.16:59
yvlit should be much easier to tweak later on16:59
aelkneroh, to get headers to work16:59
th1aI'm ok with jumping with both feet into RML.16:59
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th1aWith some trepidation.17:00
aelknerbut th1a, that's not on my list of tasks for the last two weeks that we agreed on17:00
th1aThat's why yvl is doing it.17:00
yvlit's on my list of tasks17:00
th1aSo no worries.17:00
th1aNow, one other aelkner/yvl question.17:01
th1aSLA got some spurious HTML tags in their narrative reports last week.17:01
th1aaelkner: What were the tags?17:01
aelkner<br /> and <p class="wester"> weren't properly handled by the regex paragraph break-up17:02
aelknerso i fixed that17:02
aelkneralso, &rspqu; wasn't handled17:02
aelkneror something similar to that17:02
aelknerbasically, the FckEditor allows the user to embed tags, but the report generation has to handle everything that could be there17:03
yvlah, thanks Alan17:03
th1aSo someone entered/pasted &rspqu; ?17:03
aelkneri'm guessing they user the FckEditor wiget to embed that one17:04
Lumierewhat is rspqu?17:04
th1aThat's what I'm confused about.17:04
Lumiereit isn't one that i can see17:05
LumiereI wonder if it is a word quote17:05
yvlseriously, what is rspqu?17:05
aelknerit's a single quote17:05
yvlah, yes17:06
aelkneryou had &#39;17:06
Lumiereit's a fancy right quote17:06
Lumiereinstead of a '17:06
aelknerit was used to genereate the word "I'd"17:06
aelkneras in I had17:06
th1aOK, well, this is a common case, so it is something we'll have to cover in general in our widgets.17:07
aelkneri could see why the user chose the fancy right quote17:07
aelknerfor I'd17:07
Lumiere3:1 they pasted from word17:07
th1aIt is probably just what Word did.17:07
aelknerwell, maybe that's it17:07
th1aI mean, I don't think you can *type* that.17:08
yvldamn, I did not know that one was a problem for Reportlab17:08
th1aWhy is it a reportlab problem?17:08
Lumiereit isn't17:09
yvlas far as I understood the problem, it was in the report generation, right?17:09
Lumiereit's a storage issue17:09
ignasstorage or display?17:09
Lumiereignas: likely could be solved either way17:09
yvland display pdf or display html?17:09
Lumierebut my preference would be to store the unicode17:10
aelkneryvl: you had a reason to write the conversion function, _unescape_FCKEditor_HTML, right?17:10
aelknerand that's where i added the conversion of the right quote17:10
yvlyes, I'm trying to remember now (looking at code)... one minute...17:11
th1aI guess there is an escaping issue and a tag stripping issue.17:11
th1aLet's backtrack.17:11
th1a1) Users should not be entering html at all, right?  This is a rich text widget?17:12
th1aIt is just a word processor to them.17:12
th1aSo the answer to the HTML stripping issue is - don't enter HTML on your reportcard.17:12
th1aOtherwise, when you're pasting from Word, you're going to get some fancy characters -- we need to handle those.17:13
th1aAnd right now they're getting escaped and not unescaped on the report, correct?17:13
yvlI remembered why I did this17:14
yvljust took the defensive way - Reportlab throwed exceptions at unrecognized tags or &...;17:15
yvlbut it had to use some of the tags generated by FCKEd17:16
yvlso the solution was - escape everything, unescape what we are aware of17:16
yvlin case of mistake users get some tag or &qweqwe; instead of a traceback17:17
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th1aSo we could just make sure and handle all the characters a teacher is likely to get out of Word?17:17
dwelshgood morning17:17
th1aThat would be the simplest fix in the shorter term?17:17
th1adwelsh: Good morning.17:17
th1aAlso, do we re-use this configuration of fckeditor?17:18
yvlerm, not in SchoolTool17:18
yvlonly SLA17:18
th1aOK, so presumably in the medium term we should get this right and then use it everywhere.17:19
th1aBut that's down the road.17:19
th1aThanks, yvl.17:19
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dwelshwelsh is concerned about importing students routine and its failure to add students to group students17:19
th1aIs this a CanDo thing?17:20
th1aSchoolTool doesn't have an import students routine.17:20
dwelshit appears failure happened because groups do not exist before a year and term are setup?17:20
dwelshwhy would existence of groups be dependent upon setup of years?17:20
th1adwelsh: Look -- if you have a list of students, you can add them to the student group in a number of ways.17:21
th1aThis is only a problem if you don't have a list of students.17:21
th1a.xls import...17:21
th1aI think the CSV import still works for groups.17:21
th1aAll you need is the id's.17:22
dwelshdoes not work unless years and terms are setup first.17:22
th1aSet up a year and a term.17:22
dwelshI know that; my question is:  is this the way we WANT schooltool to function17:23
dwelshseems very counter-intuitive to me17:23
dwelshand it has caused a problem now with VA pilot17:23
th1aYes, because you have a different group of students every year.17:23
dwelshno you don't17:24
th1aStudents graduate...17:24
dwelshyou add to the same group of students every  year17:24
th1aNew students come in.17:24
dwelshand yes, subtract some too17:24
th1aThis was only a problem because we didn't go over the changes in detail before the pilot was deployed.17:25
th1aWhich, obviously, was a mistake.17:25
th1aBut there is nothing wrong with the implementation.17:25
dwelshOK.  I agree with your point #117:25
dwelshI'm not confident yet about point #2.17:26
ignasthere is a major difference in points of view17:26
ignasit seems that dwelsh is treating students group17:26
ignasas a "tag"17:26
ignasto mark a person17:26
ignasas a "Student"17:26
ignasinstead of a "Teacher"17:26
ignasor something else17:26
ignaswhile we are thinking of groups as well - groups of people17:26
ignasthat change year to year17:27
ignasand that you track all the time17:27
ignaslike "who were in Students group last year"17:27
ignasfor example17:27
dwelshyes, I think that's the essence of it.17:27
dwelshthe group "students" setup both permissions and functionality in CanDo17:27
ignasyep, but as I have mentioned school year integration will be tricky17:28
ignasas permissions will have to change year to year17:28
ignassomeone who was a student last year17:28
ignaswill lose his permissions/functionality next year if he is not in the Students group again17:28
dwelshI'm wondering how this will effect the running of reports.17:28
dwelshCanDo data will persist over four or six year.17:28
dwelshWhat if a student was a student in year 1, but not in 2, then was a student again in year 3.17:29
dwelshWill this setup reporting problems?17:29
ignasdepends on who will write reports17:29
ignasand how17:29
th1aIt will be less of a problem than if SchoolTool didn't know about years.17:29
ignasdwelsh: the alternative would be a "switch on" "switch off" functionality in relationships17:30
ignasthat you really don't want to have as it is even more complex17:30
dwelshRight.  My thought was the switch on/switch off paradigm17:30
ignasI picked the choice of 1 year 1 group17:30
ignasbecause thinking of a group now17:30
dwelshOnce a student, always a student, unless you get switched off17:31
ignasas a separate object17:31
ignasis easier17:31
ignasthan thinking of a versioned object17:31
ignasthat is tracking changes over time17:31
ignasand if you are changing the grou17:31
ignasyou are changing it "now" but not in the past17:31
ignasand etc.17:31
dwelshAre we going to have four databases of students for the four years of a student's career?17:32
dwelshHow do we tell if there are duplicates???17:32
th1aIt isn't that complicated.17:32
th1aIt is the same student.17:32
th1aThere is a student group for each year.17:32
ignasyep, students, resources and school years are the "timeless" objects17:32
th1aSo they'd be member of the student group each year.17:32
Lumieredwelsh: we should not need to insert students into a group for sections to work17:33
dwelshMeaning one database of students, with our years of group affiliations?17:33
dwelshfour years of group affiliations?17:33
* Lumiere thinks that CanDo should use section data to decide if the person is a student17:34
Lumiereinstead of a group17:34
th1aThat's the way SchoolTool in general works.17:35
ignaswell - in most of the parts it does17:35
th1aSo really we just need to bring CanDo in line with that.17:35
ignasyou are in a section as a "student" - you will see the "being a student in a section related" links17:35
ignasand if you are an instructor for a section - you will see links related to instructing a section17:35
ignasand if you are both - you will see all of them17:35
dwelshyes, that may be a cleaner way of doing it.17:36
ignasbut again - that's where our opinions are sometimes different17:36
dwelshand that is in fact what determines the group affiliation... the section relationships17:36
ignasbecause I do admit - sometimes having fixed roles makes it more straightforward17:36
th1aIt is just that the coding is a little more complicated.17:36
th1aThe reason you guys are doing it the way you are is because:17:36
th1a1) person logs in;17:37
Lumiereignas: the problem is that it doesn't allow the flexibility for a teacher to be a student later on17:37
th1a2) Is person a student - show student intro page;17:37
th1a3) Is person a teacher - show teacher intro page.17:37
ignasLumiere: both ways have their merits and downsides, we picked one of them, and cando picked the other one, which is making it tricky...17:37
Lumiereignas: yea17:37
replaceafillbrb switching pcs17:37
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LumiereI like that 2/3 exist in CanDo, but is there any way to do "show intro page with links to student/teacher information based on what is taught this SY/Term"17:38
th1aThat's what makes it harder.17:39
dwelsh2 & 3 is very important to CanDo17:39
dwelshand in general, teachers switching to students in a public school is not a use-case17:39
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th1aAnyhow, this is a longer-term question.17:40
aelknerschooltool.gradebook handles the case where a user is BOTH a teacher and a student17:40
aelknerby having an intermediate page17:40
aelknerClasses you Attend17:40
aelknerClasses you teach17:40
aelknerin that case17:40
aelknerotherwise, if one only either teaches or attends17:40
th1aRealistically, we could eliminate that intermediate page easily if we wanted.17:40
LumiereI think this is something we could look at moodle 1.9 about...17:40
aelknerit automaticaly takes the user to the right place17:40
Lumierethey have a role chooser17:40
ignaslyceum journal was or is showing a tab for your sections that leads to one place or the other depending on whether you are a teacher or a student17:41
ignasi think they even have the same title17:41
Lumiereby default you log into your highest level role17:41
th1aI think we can resolve this in the longer run.17:41
th1aIs there an immediate problem?17:41
Lumiereth1a: the only immediate problem is that the pilots didn't get students into the students group17:42
dwelshright.  we introduced a bug17:42
th1aDo they know the student's id's?17:43
Lumieredwelsh: I don't see it as a 'bug' as much as a feature that wasn't intended :)17:43
th1aIt is a documentation bug.17:43
dwelshDouglas is thinking of writing a routine that will check to see who's in a section17:43
th1aActually, I think it is documented.17:43
dwelshand then will add them to the group "students"17:43
ignasbut it is easy to fix17:43
ignasyou just export XLS17:43
dwelshdoes that make sense17:43
ignascopy the names17:43
ignasand paste them into the "Group" import page17:43
dwelshthere is a group import page?17:44
Lumiereth1a: not documented for the csv importer17:44
ignasXLS import/export has it17:44
ignasso you can import Students Group for the school year that you need with all the students17:44
ignasas long as you know their usernames17:44
ignasI can talk to Lumiere about it and I think we should be able to resolve it pretty quickly17:46
dwelshIs there a reason why we wouldn't have Douglas write a view to check the sections and add to group "students" based on section enrollment?17:47
dwelshseems easier and more foolproof to me.17:47
dwelsheasier for the end-user, I mean.17:47
ignasfoolproof - yes17:47
ignaseasier - not sure17:47
th1aIt shouldn't be necessary.17:47
ignasahh, easier for the user17:47
dwelshignas, douglas and jason17:48
dwelshcan you guys work a solution out for Lee Capps17:48
yvlguys, I have to leave now... So a great week to you.  If anything, leave me a note on IRC or by email.17:48
ignasdon't know, I'll see17:48
dwelshI would ask that we accept responsibility for this one, and not create work for him17:49
dwelshhave a great week yvl17:49
th1athanks yvl17:49
th1aLumiere should be able to handle the import, if he's got permission.17:50
ignaswe probably can, though - these use cases are solvable by anyone who knows how to write CSV files using python, and perfectly we want our users to be able to fix those themselves, at least in the long run17:50
dwelshLumiere, can you take the lead on getting this fixed?17:53
th1aaelkner: How have you been doing?17:55
aelkneris our impromptu CanDo meeting done then?17:56
dwelshthanks for the interruption:)17:56
aelknerok, so I knocked off half of the bugs that we agreed I'd do in the two weeks17:56
aelknerth1a: you forgot to add a bug for "detect unsaved changes in gradebook"17:57
aelknerotherwise, did you get the emails for the bugs that I changed to "Fix Comiited"?17:57
aelknerand, of course, i dealt with the SLA issue17:58
aelkneri think they should be OK for now17:58
aelkneri never got a 1099 for last year17:59
th1aCan we merge those changes.17:59
th1aWe don't send out 1099's.17:59
th1aWe're not an American company.17:59
aelknerwhat do i do for my tazes?17:59
th1aI just report my income.17:59
aelknerok, will do17:59
aelknerignas can merge any time he wants to18:00
* th1a has to go pick up his taxes after this meeting.18:00
th1aDoes ignas know what branch you're working on?18:00
ignasaelkner: which branch?18:00
aelknerit has't changed18:00
aelkneri'm trying to minimize the time spent discussing branches18:01
aelknerso that i can do real work18:01
th1aThat wasn't so hard.18:01
aelknerth1a: you will add the bug?18:02
th1aI just hadn't assigned it to you.18:03
th1aAnything else?18:03
aelknerth1a: thanks18:03
dwelshhave a great week18:03
aelknergreat week everyone18:03
th1aHave a great week -- code freeze FRIDAY.18:04
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.18:04
ignasth1a: got 5 minutes?18:04
ignasquestion about contacts18:04
ignaswhat kind of "search" form should we add in membership views18:04
ignasand in the container view18:04
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ignasat the moment contacts have a whole bunch of fields18:05
ignasand I don't really know which are the important ones18:05
ignasand how users will be "thinking" about contacts18:05
th1aUh huh.18:06
ignaspoint is - you add some students18:06
ignasadd some contacts18:06
ignasand now you must "assign" them to each other18:07
ignasor should we rather do some intermediate view18:07
ignaslike "Add + assign contact" in one go18:07
ignasfor most usecases18:07
ignasand have the other workflow for special cases18:07
ignaswhere you want to assign the same contact for 2 different persons18:07
ignasor managed to mess something up and etc.18:08
th1aIn most cases, when you add a person you want to add a new contact.18:08
th1a1 in 20 times you want to link to an existing contact.18:08
th1aOr maybe 1 in 10.18:09
ignasso - how do you imagine finding the right contact18:09
th1aSearch by name?18:09
ignasok, search by name + surname18:09
th1aContact name.18:09
th1aPrimarily surname, really.18:09
th1aYou could enter the student's last name in the field by default.18:10
ignashmm, makes sense actually18:10
th1aIt could fit on one form.18:10
ignasthe other question is - how do you tell apart people with the same name and surname?18:10
th1a"Search for existing contact: " at the top.18:10
th1aEntry form underneath.18:10
ignasyeah, our membership forms have filter widget already18:11
ignaslook at "add instructor to section"18:11
ignasi can show name/surname/....18:11
ignasin the table18:11
ignasjust which ones are the important fields most of the time18:11
* Lumiere just got back...18:12
Lumierewhat is it that I am being asked to do?18:12
th1aImport the list of students?18:12
th1aOr decide to make replacafil code a solution.18:12
ignasLumiere: have you seen XLS export/import18:12
ignasand do you know which instance they have this problem on18:12
th1aignas: Street address.18:12
Lumiereall of em18:13
ignasLumiere: ok, so here's the deal :)18:13
ignasLumiere: to add a bunch of people to students group, you will need a list of their usernames18:13
ignasLumiere: from what I understand, one way to get it is to scan all the sections18:13
ignasLumiere: and collect all the usernames that are "members" of a section18:13
ignasis there an easier way in which you could get the list?18:14
ignaslike the initial import data that you used to make the first import?18:14
LumiereI think we could get that from Lee18:14
LumiereI think a goal for CanDo 2009.08 will be to get one permissions method in place18:15
ignasif you have a small school tool instance running, with groups and all18:16
ignasjust export an XLS file18:16
ignasdelete all the sheets except groups18:16
ignasdelete all the groups in it except the students group18:16
ignasand copy/paste the student usernames into it18:16
LumiereI think that is doable18:16
Lumiereand I can put together directions for Lee to do it18:16
ignasif you have trunk somewhere18:16
Lumiereignas: what xls versions do I use?18:17
ignasyou can use the "empty_data.xls"18:17
Lumiereignas: I don't know if I have trunk18:17
ignasto get a documented overview of the format18:17
ignaslemme see on launchpad18:17
Lumierewait I do18:17
ignasjust start it up and go to manage -> XLS Import18:18
ignasbzr up first ;)18:18
ignasyou will see links to sample data file and empty data file18:18
LumiereTree is up to date at revision 2462.18:18
ignasor download both files from here18:19
ignasthe section format on trunk is different from the one that CanDo is using, but you only need to import the Groups Worksheet18:19
th1aignas: I'd use street address to compare similar names, so use them in the index view.18:23
ignasok, will use them in both places18:23
ignasthe relationship view and the index view18:23
Lumieredoes anyone use thunderbird with gmail?18:33
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Lumierehi jelkner20:18
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replaceafillth1a, sorry i couldnt come back to the meeting21:06
replaceafillour inet connection is down at work21:06
Lumierereplaceafill: did you get the CC I sent you?21:10
th1ahi replaceafill.  No problem.21:10
replaceafillLumiere, did u just sent it?21:10
replaceafillth1a, that's why I always CC u when I fix something :)21:11
th1aYes.  Thanks.21:11
Lumierereplaceafill: I sent it a couple hours ago21:12
Lumierereplaceafill: but I am not sure it went through21:12
replaceafillLumiere, hhmm to my yahoo mail?21:12 was screwing up for me21:12
Lumiere(brb, wc)21:12
replaceafillLumiere, dont have anything in yahoo21:13
Lumierewill resend in a moment,21:14
replaceafillLumiere, thanks21:15
Lumierereplaceafill: ok it is sent21:30
replaceafillLumiere, checking...21:31
Lumierereplaceafill: will you be around a little later tonight or tomorrow early afternoon to merge / update ACC's instance?21:31
replaceafillsure, tonight if u want21:31
replaceafillis it 8 pm ur time ok?21:31
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