IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2009-04-07

Lumiereth1a: hmm?00:32
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th1aeferuzi: Hi.16:03
eferuzii am working on localising school tool in kiswahili16:03
eferuzithla: how are you16:04
th1aWow.  Where is that spoken?16:04
th1aI'm fine.  How are you?16:04
eferuziin Tanzania, Kenya, Rwanda, Burundi, Uganda, DRC16:04
eferuzibasically central africa16:04
th1aAh.  Do you work at an NGO or something?16:05
eferuziat the moment no16:05
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eferuzii have been working on FF3.5 and i start looking a Edubuntu and I liked SchoolTool16:06
eferuziFirefox 3.516:06
th1aAh, right.16:07
eferuzii am working with a team of tanzanians students that i have been assisting with linux and programing16:07
th1a(I asked if you were in an NGO because I forgot I asked you where the language was spoken not where you work)16:07
th1aIs Launchpad working for you?16:08
eferuziwell if we can get at NGO to give us a hand especially  on distribution16:08
eferuziwell i have working with  PO files so i downloaded the PO file and that is what i am using16:09
th1aHave you run into any specific problems?16:11
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jelknerhello from myrtle beach, sc16:31
th1ajelkner: You have a new person for your meeting: eferuzi.16:31
Lumierehello from work16:31
th1aAlthough he may be afk.16:31
Lumierejelkner: don't rub it in too badly :)16:31
th1aAre you on spring break jelkner?16:32
jelknerLumiere: i'm working too (grades are due)16:32
jelknerjust at a very leisurely pace ;-)16:32
eferuzii was away16:32
jelknerth1a: yup16:32
th1aeferuzi: No problem.16:32
eferuzithla:  You have a new person for your meeting: eferuzi.16:32
eferuzii am not following16:33
eferuzii have not run into any problem till now16:33
th1ajelkner lobbied to have a "users meeting" at this time every week.16:33
jelknerthat's why i'm here16:33
th1aSo you're now attending the users meeting, eferuzi.16:33
th1ajelkner is your enthusiastic host.16:33
jelknereferuzi: welcome!16:33
Lumieretoo enthusiastic sometimes </sarcasm>16:34
* th1a is the sometimes grumpy project manager.16:34
eferuzii am planning to spend the the whole easter and see if i can finish the localisation by end of this short holiday16:34
* ignas is the reason why th1a is sometimes grumpy ;)16:34
eferuziwhat meeting16:34
eferuzii am lost16:34
th1aeferuzi: Do you know if you got the translations from the development branch?16:34
eferuzithla: i do not know16:35
th1aeferuzi: The "meeting" started here four minutes ago.  ;-)16:35
jelknereferuzi: there is a developer's meeting each monday at 9:30 EST16:35
eferuziso should logout and login later16:35
jelkneri used to attend those meetings looking to discuss schooltool from a user's perspective16:35
eferuzior what must16:35
th1aLet me point you to the right place...16:35
jelkneri realized that was not the place for that16:35
jelknerso i proposed to our fearless leader that we add another meeting on tuesday for users16:36
ignasth1a: don't think he has translations from the development branch16:36
eferuzican i see that from the PO file i have16:36
th1aProbably from 2008.4, because that's where you're pointed by default.16:36
th1aWe really should just be pointing people to trunk now, I think.16:37
th1aIs that right, ignas?16:37
jelknerth1a: i would like to talk about gradebook / cando integration when you have a chance16:38
ignaskind of16:38
ignasit needs to be updated16:38
ignasbut I will look at it today16:38
Lumiereth1a: are we going to take advandage of Rosetta's new bzr translation update stuff soon?16:38
Lumiere(or ignas)16:38
ignaswe probably should be, but I have to find out how to use it, and how it works and whether it works16:39
ignasand remove some old templates16:39
th1ajelkner: Well, that's moving down my list of priorities for a while, unless you guys get some money.16:39
jelkneri'll wait then16:40
jelknerthat sounds fair16:40
th1aI'm going to have to start thinking about our other users.16:40
jelknerspeaking of that, we should start tracking our other users16:41
jelknerwho are they?16:41
jelknerwhere are they?16:41
th1aignas: Did you see my bug about round-tripping export/import spreadsheets?16:41
jelknerwhat kinds of schools are they using ST in?16:41
ignasnot sure, not in the email i think16:41
jelknerhow are they using it?16:41
jelkneri'd like to encourage folks to show up here and swap stories16:42
th1aPeople don't like to use IRC.16:42
jelknerand we should put something on the website like "Look whose using SchoolTool"16:42
LumiereIRC is not great for that16:42
jelknerLumiere: i don't know why you say that.16:43
Lumiereyou'd be better off with a forum or the mailing list for swapping stories16:43
Lumierejelkner: because *users* don't know what IRC is 99% of the time16:43
th1aignas: I forgot to assign it:
th1aYes, we need a forum.16:43
eferuziwhat is the marketing strategy for ST16:44
th1aWell, step 1, finish 1.0 (coming in two weeks).16:45
eferuzii am working on a dissemination of firefox in Tanzania so i can include ST16:45
ignasLumiere: can you point me at an example of a working forum in there?16:45
th1aeferuzi: Certainly supporting people like you who will be local advocates is a big part of it.16:46
Lumiereignas: yea, let me see if I can find one :)16:46
th1aWe aren't going to be running a global ad campaign.16:46
th1aOr a global business.16:46
Lumiereignas: crap... all the ones I spend a lot of time at are locked to members only16:46
eferuzithe problem i have with Tanzania is that not all school have computers so i am hoping to start with those that have computers and see how it wiaks16:46
Lumiereignas: Invision Power Board is what it is based on... it's the most stable forum software I've seen16:47
ignasth1a: as for the round trip export - it works for persons only at the moment, i did not have enough time to do the rest of the objects16:47
th1aWe have some contacts at NGO's, UN agencies, etc.  We just needed to get the software further along before we could push hard on that side.16:48
th1aignas: So... what should someone do?16:48
th1aBasically you can use the spreadsheet for a clean start.16:49
eferuzithla: what do you mean " We just needed to get the software further along " ?16:49
Lumiereignas: if you want to look at a huge IPB... try community.910cmx.com16:49
Lumierethat community has like 200k posts16:49
ignasth1a: yes, only that at the moment, I can probably make terms/years update, but sections will be more tricky16:50
ignasth1a: will keep this feature in mind, not sure about time though16:50
th1aeferuzi: Well, it hasn't had all the necessary functionality.16:50
th1aWe're just now getting all the pieces together.16:50
Lumiereeferuzi: School Information Systems are hugely complex16:50
eferuziLumiere + thla: i know and i must say i have respect for your team. and that is why i want to have it in kiswahili16:52
* jelkner ... happy to see a new nick in the channel, goes back to his vacation.16:52
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th1aignas: Perhaps it would be helpful (and easy) to skip missing worksheets.16:53
th1aThen I could say "export the spreadsheet, change around persons, delete the other worksheets, reimport."16:54
th1aWhich seems less clunky than "select all and delete the contents of the other worksheets."16:54
ignasth1a: it works that way16:54
ignasth1a: i mean - you can only import "persons" sheet IIRC16:55
* Lumiere hates Bretford 18 carts...16:55
ignasif you can't - file it as a bug16:55
* ignas goes to look16:55
ignasyeah, i have a demographics.xls16:55
th1aI'll try it again.  I got my files a little mixed up yesterday so I might have not been doing what I thought.16:55
ignasthat only contains Persons sheet16:55
ignasand i think it works for me16:56
th1aI'll double check later.16:56
th1aeferuzi: Looking more closely at things, you definitely want to translate the 2008.04 templates, they are the most recent, and they are also the ones that Launchpad points you toward, so you've probably already got them.16:59
Lumiereth1a: and anything that hasn't changed would be automatically translated when we post development templates?17:00
eferuzithla: i am looking at the development and i see there is more files than the 2008.4 is that correnct17:00
eferuzithla: so should we try and finish the 2008.4 or start working on the development17:01
th1aThey are actually newer.17:01
Lumiereeferuzi: we're adding some packages from 2008.04 -> 2009.04, but if I remember correctly... launchpad should pull relevent translations from the 2008.04 list17:02
eferuzithen that is okay17:03
th1aignas: It looks like we haven't been manually uploading translations to the development series, right?17:04
th1aNow, in the future, that can now be done automatically.17:04
ignasit only supports one launchpad branch17:05
ignaswe have 3 branches with translations i think17:05
ignas2 branches17:06
th1aWell, as I have a tendency to do, I think I've been focusing my attention on problems we won't have for several years.17:06
th1aOr at least another year.17:06
th1aI don't think we're going to have to worry about making it convenient for people to translate older stable versions of SchoolTool for a while.17:07
th1aSo defaulting to trunk is probably the right move.17:08
Lumiereonly if defaulting to trunk is up to date :)17:09
ignasI so dislike asking "operator" to come and "delete some stuff"17:10
ignasin launchpad17:10
ignasfeels so nineteenth century17:10
Lumiereignas: "trust me with the keys to my own damned car please?" :)17:11
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Lumiereaelkner: ayt?19:35
Lumiereignas: ayt?19:54
Lumiereis it possible to have a section with no course?19:56
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ignasLumiere: API allows that, but you might run into trouble19:57
ignaswith parts of code in cando19:57
ignasand probably some code in schooltol19:57
Lumiereyea I just did19:58
Lumierecando's global competency report expects a section to have courses19:58
ignassome cando programmers thought it was a good idea to do[0] in the UI iirc19:59
Lumierethat's what this one was19:59
aelknerthere's nothing wrong with doing[0] as long as one can assume a section always has a course20:00
aelknerhow could a section exist without one?20:00
aelknerdoes it even make sense for a section to have no course?20:01
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aelknerand how could the user make that happen?20:01
th1aI think the bottom line is that in a perfect world it would either be impossible or handled cleanly.20:02
jelkneraelkner: hey man, i just tried to call you20:03
aelknerjelkner: you didn't try hard enough :)20:03
jelknerit was busy20:03
jelknerdid you see my ping?20:03
ignasaelkner: but assuming that a section has only one course is absolutely wrong20:03
aelknerah, yes i was talking with jason20:03
jelkneranyway, i was just going to thank you for getting us out of a jam20:04
aelknerignas: i know that assumption is wrong, but one thing at a time20:04
aelknerjelkner: i want to talk to you about easter anyway, so let's wait until we are on the phone20:04
jelkneri'm in south carolina20:05
aelknerignas: for now, the point is: how did a section get created with no course?20:05
ignasno idea really, ask Lumiere ;)20:05
jelkneraelkner: can you see my personal message to you?20:06
aelknerignas: i told Lumiere that it was likely the section import that made this happen20:06
aelknerbecause i can't think of anywhere in the UI that a person could make a section have no course20:07
ignasLumiere: can you try and reproduce it by not adding any courses and importing a sections worksheet?20:07
ignasnot adding any courses to the courses "row"20:08
LumiereI just got off the phone with CTE Resource Center20:14
Lumierethey're worked around it for now and I am bug reporting20:14
ignasLumiere: so what precisely was the problem?20:15
Lumiereit assumes that there is at least 1 course and 1 instructor20:15
ignasLumiere: not setting a course in the sections worksheet?20:15
ignasno, my question is - how did they create such a thing?20:15
Lumiereif either are missing it crashes instead of marking none20:16
ignaswell - it should crash if there are no courses20:16
Lumiereignas: I didn't look into it with glenda, she didn't do imports20:16
ignaswe don't support that at the moment20:16
Lumiereignas: there are courses... but a section with no course20:16
ignasbut missing instructor should be handled, so it's a bug20:16
ignasyeah, that's what i am talking about20:16
Lumiereignas: yes20:16
ignassection with 0 courses will cause problems20:16
Lumiereignas: I'll have to ask Lee20:16
LumiereI have no idea how it happened20:17
Lumiereand welsh is phone off20:17
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aelknerbut, someone can look at the import code to see if it's even possible20:20
aelknerwho wrote it?20:20
th1aBasically, there is a ton of safety/sanity checking that ought to be added to the .xls import routine.20:21
th1aWe just don't have time to do all that.20:21
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Lumiereaelkner: I am sending an email asking Lee for information20:23
Lumiereaelkner: I need to know where it came into the system to know where to look20:23
aelknerLumiere: well, th1a answered my question20:24
th1aBear in mind that th1a often doesn't know what he is talking about.20:25
Lumiereit wasn't xls import for sure20:25
LumiereI am guessing it was the custom cando import20:25
aelknerLumiere: yes, quite possibly20:25
aelknerthat was yvl, right?20:25
th1aSame deal.20:25
Lumierebut... I want to make sure before I push forward on asking for those changes20:25
Lumiereth1a: yes20:25
th1aOnce you add these import methods, you really have to have sanity checking at the model level.20:26
th1aYou can't rely on "there is no way for the user to do this through the web."20:26
th1aAnd you don't want to re-write the same checks for each import method.20:26
aelkneri think it would be better to have the section not be addable wothout course20:27
aelknerthen have the code check for it in a miliion places20:28
aelknerwe would have to decide on the behavior of each individual code case if such section were possible20:29
aelknerand that would be more work than just not letting it happen20:29
aelknerwhat about other required fields like the title itself20:30
aelknershould we also always check that the title is set?20:30
aelknerwe would end up having more code to check for that which should always be there20:30
aelknerthan for the actual logic to use the values themselves20:30
aelknerit's bad coding practice20:31
aelknerthat's why a database system has required fields in the first place20:32
th1aIsn't this the whole point of having interfaces?20:32
th1aDo we just need to change the interface?20:32
Lumiereth1a: interfaces aren't always a good enough test20:33
aelknerinterfaces are not for that20:33
aelknerthey are for asking whether something is required in a rare case20:33
aelknerbut more commonly they are for auto generating a form20:33
aelknerbut the code that creates an object has the responsibility of following the rules of the interface20:34
aelknerso a form always gets it right20:34
aelknerand the import code need to get it right, too20:34
th1aSo basically we'd want to throw an exception if you tried to add a section that didn't have a course, which would be caught by the view?20:35
aelknerthat's what i was getting at20:36
aelknerwe should have a subscriber for adding a section20:36
aelknerthat throws an exception if the course is not set20:36
aelkneras far as the view catching it, well, that would be up to the import20:36
aelknerit could use try/except20:37
aelkneror it could just be code to not let it happen20:37
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Lumiereow... my arms <_<21:59
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