IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2009-03-23

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replaceafilloopss :)01:51
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Lumiere'morning all15:26
th1aGood morning Lumiere.15:27
replaceafillmorning Lumiere th1a15:27
th1aGood morning replaceafill.15:29
th1aHi ignas, aelkner, yvl.15:31
th1aTook a trip down to Arlington to work on a National Science Foundation grant with Welsh.15:31
Lumierethat was last week?15:31
Lumierehow'd it go?15:32
th1aWe got the ball rolling.  We've got a month to finish it.15:32
th1aFinish the preliminary proposal.15:32
th1aFinal proposal is in October.15:32
yvlhi guys15:33
Lumiereis that for the full one or the sugar one15:33
th1aNot the sugar one.15:33
Lumiereth1a: is the topic ok for you?15:33
th1aIt is about expanding CanDo/SchoolTool to track the full Governor's Academy program.15:33
th1aTopic's fine.15:34
* Lumiere cedes the floor ;)15:34
th1aThat'll probably end up as about a 3 year $300,000 grant if we get it.15:35
Lumierethat should cover pretty much everything schooltool needs for 3 years15:35
th1aWell, not everything SchoolTool needs, but that'll keep the ball rolling if we get it.15:36
th1aOK, ignas, how are you doing?15:36
ignasfine, thank you15:36
ignasschooltool works with python2.515:36
ignasat last15:36
ignasalga helped me to debug the nastiest Zope3 bug i have seen in 2 years ;)15:37
ignason friday15:37
* Lumiere requests that move happen post 2009.0415:37
ignasso we released a new egg, and I have backported it to 3.4 branch15:37
ignasLumiere: nope, can't do that, must use python2.5 because of jaunty15:37
th1aThat's the problem.15:38
Lumiereignas: jaunty can't buildout 2.4?15:38
Lumiereor does it not build 2.4 at all anymore?15:38
ignasbuildout - yes, apt-get, kind of15:38
ignasbuilds python2.415:38
ignasbut some of the packages are not build for 2.4 anymore15:38
ignasonly for 2.5 and 2.615:38
ignaslike now - you still can get python2.3, but default pythons are 2.4 and 2.515:38
ignasso for jaunty it'll be 2.5 and 2.615:38
ignaswhich is why I am focusing on the release only at the moment15:39
ignasto get this problem sorted out as soon as I can15:39
ignas(i did not know how long it will take to fix the zope3 bug for example)15:39
ignasbut with Albertas, it took us 4 hours of pair programming15:39
ignasthe fix was 2 lines of code15:39
th1aSounds like fun.15:40
ignasso, i have branched all the packages now15:40
ignaswill bump the versions on trunks15:40
ignasmatch the KGS versions15:41
ignasand try releasing for jaunty as soon as I can15:41
ignasbecause if I don't get this done, there will be no point in writing code ;)15:41
th1aAnd then once that's working you can shift back to bugs, etc?15:41
ignasbecause I will know that i have "release_date - now - 1"  days left to fix them15:42
th1aOK ;-)15:42
th1aSounds good.15:42
th1aAnything else?15:42
ignasnope, nothing else15:42
th1aJust an update from packaging hell ;-)15:43
yvlI finally committed functions for section copying / linking15:43
* ignas can't recall whether we did nightly KGS this or last week :D15:43
yvlno UI yet15:43
yvlbut Ignas can use it in importer after it's merged to trunk15:43
yvlgot stuck with reports15:44
yvl(Reportlab is a "really ugly thing (tm)")15:44
aelknerhow so?15:44
yvlwon't go into details now, but basically just scrapped what I've done before and took a different angle15:45
yvlPageTemplates, Frames15:45
yvlHeader/Footer rendering should be done directly on canvas (not via story)15:45
Lumiereignas: a week ago and tuesday15:45
aelknerhow can that be tested?15:45
LumiereI'll cover it :)15:45
yvlaelkner, not very much15:46
th1aYou might need to go into some detail, yvl.15:46
yvlI think we'll skip that testing15:46
yvlok, th1a15:46
th1aEspecially since your header has to go in his report.15:46
yvlReportlab has following hierarchy:   Document -> PageTemplates -> Frames15:47
yvlgiven a list of flowables (a story) it tries to fill frames in each page with them15:47
yvlso story is the part aelkner is working on now, AFAIK15:48
yvlI wrote PageTemplate/Frame builder today15:48
yvland for each page there is be a static part (header + footer)15:48
yvlthe thing is that static parts are not processed like the rest of the story, they must be "drawn" directly on canvas15:49
yvli.e. provide string/image/other element coordinates15:49
yvland Frames need to be adjusted so they won't overwrite the "flowable" part15:50
th1aSo this is specific to your task.15:50
aelknerwhat task is that?15:50
th1aThe header.15:50
Lumiereyvl: can it be aware of how many characters will fit?  I know that when I was playing with the canvas and I didn't check I got problems15:50
yvlyes, Lumiere15:50
yvlthough I don't think I want to do multi-line formatting or stuff like that by hand15:51
yvlbasic checks, and that's it15:51
yvlso I hope I figured out a "clean" way to render the static part15:52
yvlthat won't kick us first time we need to do any modifications to header/footer15:52
th1aSo your changes don't affect what aelkner's doing.15:53
Lumierethat's fine :)15:53
yvlby the way - aelkner, what is the feature you're implementing?15:53
aelknerwhat's the header/footer for?15:53
th1aReport card.15:53
aelkneri'm doing the report card, so how am i not effected15:54
aelknerand what code did yvl change?15:54
yvlwe'll the main part of your work should be building the story which you pass to
aelkneri did that15:54
yvlaelkner, I'm writing a new module15:55
yvlso the difference will be, that you pass the same story, only to
aelkneri see how nothing changes for me now15:55
th1aWhen yvl started his explanation, I wasn't sure if this was leading to aelkner having to change the way he was doing his report.15:55
aelkneri just need to test my stories15:55
aelkneryvl: have you made progress with the xml version of stories?15:56
yvlI haven't written the story xml printer yet :|15:56
yvlshould I make it priority item?15:56
aelknerjust so you know i'm waiting on that to test with15:57
yvlok, so yes15:57
th1aI'm not convinced that it is worth spending a lot of time on.15:57
yvlit's a 0.5-1 day task15:57
yvljust didn't start that yet15:57
yvlmy appologies for that15:58
th1aNo problem.15:58
yvlah, another small question - is there a list of features planned for this release anywhere?15:58
yvljust to get a grip on amount of work left / time frame15:59
th1aIt is mostly clearing up gaps in the existing functionality now.15:59
ignasit's in "bugs -> Assigned to Ignas Mikalaj┼źnas" mostly ;)15:59
ignasif it's not there - it should be ;)16:00
th1aI mean, when I try to use SchoolTool now there are lots of WTF's.16:00
ignasth1a: report them please16:00
ignasor assign them to me16:00
ignasif they have been already reported16:00
th1aAnd since an undetermined number of them are a) something wrong with my source build and b) things not yet merged to trunk, it is a little frustrating.16:01
ignasstill, report it, i can "permanently" comment on the reasons it is16:01
ignasor fix it by merging things16:01
ignasthere will be a lot of things flying around during the release, so we might lose stuff that is not "pinned down"16:02
th1aOK.  I'll launch the flood of bugs.16:02
ignasto something or someone ;)16:02
ignasit is better to know of 20 defects and fix 10, than think you only have 5 and fix all of them16:02
aelkneri thought ignorance was bliss :)16:03
th1ayvl: Is there any indication in the UI that a section is a multi-term section?16:04
yvlnot yet16:04
yvlI plan to do simple (previous section, next section) links16:04
yvllike Previous:  Math, Term A16:05
ignasaelkner: yeah it is, but I am constantly aware of 50 out of 300 problems that schooltool has, i just have to be pointed in the right direction to accomplish anything ;)16:05
aelknersounds like you'll never have any bliss16:05
ignasa heavy club might help16:05
yvlth1a, I guess gradebook should be updated at some point16:05
th1aFor multi-term sections?16:06
yvlevaluations only at last term stuff16:06
aelkneri just had to make a change to the gradebook to handle multi terms16:06
th1aMostly navigational.16:06
aelkneryvl: evaluations go by activity, student tuple16:07
aelknerso the activity is the key16:07
aelknernot the section16:07
yvlemm, ok.16:07
aelknerbut activities are kept as annotations of the section16:07
aelknerso i'm not sure how you mean multi-term section16:07
th1aThey are linked sections.16:08
th1aSo I don't know why anything would be broken.16:08
yvljust read the old glossary recently16:08
yvlok, Ignas explained just now that there's no need to follow it16:09
yvl(it states that multi-term section is evaluated only in last term)16:09
th1aAh... I guess I should re-read that part.16:10
yvl(and a multi-term section is actually composed of several sections linked with / section.previous)16:10
th1aSo what did this break aelkner?16:11
aelknerso the linked sections are separate sections that just happen to match with next and previous16:11
ignasthey always match16:11
ignasthe only question/problem was16:11
aelknereach section lives in its term container16:11
ignashow do you "not grade" them for the first term for example16:11
aelknerthe gradebook works off of a section16:12
ignasbut aelkner mentioned before that users can just skip the grading in the first term16:12
ignasand only grade it for the last term if they want to16:12
aelknermay i explain how the gradebook works at the moment?16:12
aelknerthe gradebook is traversed to from a section16:13
aelknerthe view offers a drop-down of all sections that the teacher teaches16:13
aelknerbasically ILearner(teacher) which returns all section for the current school year16:14
aelknerso, if a teacher teaches Algebra I in the fall and spring16:14
aelknerthen the drop-down will have 'Fall - Algebra I' and 'Spring - Algebra !' as choices16:15
aelknerthose being two different sections16:15
aelkneryielding two different gradebooks16:15
Lumiereare multi-term sections just sections with the same name in different terms? or is there something in the section that links them? (I can see a problem where you could name the sections in such a way that they accidentally linked otherwise...16:15
aelknereach gradebook gets its worksheets from the section's annotations16:16
ignasLumiere: a matching name and even members are technically optional16:16
ignasthey are connected through "next" and "previous" attributes/properties16:16
ignasnow for the UI16:16
aelknerbut for the gradebook they are completely different sections16:17
Lumieregood :)16:17
ignasyou can or even should filter out tje "Fall - Algebra I" and "Spring - Algebra I"16:17
ignasand only have "Algebra I" in there16:17
th1aThe navigation will need to be rejiggered a bit.16:17
ignasand have "next - previous" links in the gradebook view16:17
th1aAlthough it will work as is.16:18
aelknerwhere would the activities be kept?16:18
ignason each section separately16:18
aelknerand how would the traversal work?16:18
ignassame as always16:18
aelknerwhat would the pull-down 'Algebra I' traverse to?16:18
aelknerwhich term's section?16:18
Lumiereaelkner: you can't get to Algebra I without being in a term16:19
Lumiereso it goes to that term by default16:19
th1aActually, that's a good point.16:19
ignasaelkner: the active terms section preferably16:19
ignasor to the term that you are in16:19
ignasdepends on how you think the user would like it16:19
ignasin lyceum.journal - I was picking the "current" term unless a term was selected16:20
* Lumiere notes that there should be a UI shortcut to your sections in the active term...16:20
ignasso if teacher reachers the section from his UI16:20
ignashis Home view16:20
ignashe will get the current term16:20
ignasif he goes through "term -> Section -> gradebook"16:20
ignashe get's that term16:20
ignasthat he used to reach the section16:20
aelkneri'm not sure where the worksheets are supposed to be kept in this model16:21
aelknerand what the use should see in the workseet drop-down16:22
th1aWorksheets are contained by each single term section.16:22
th1aIn most cases teachers will just have one per term.16:22
th1aOr a worksheet and a reportsheet.16:22
ignaswhen you will add grading periods - you won't need that many worksheets anyway16:23
ignasbecause mostly worksheets represent either terms16:23
ignasor terms + grading periods16:23
aelknerthey are an open concept16:23
aelknerteachers can just add worksheets at their will16:23
ignasso you keep them on each section, so that teachers could add them16:23
ignason the term that they want16:24
* Lumiere notes that the whole worksheet concept is overengineered <_<16:24
aelknerit predates terms16:24
Lumiereno it doesn't16:24
Lumiereit predates terms being *required*16:24
aelkneri should say schoolyears16:24
th1aIt is pretty simple.16:24
th1aAnd it was a necessary hack at the time.16:24
th1aIf we get a default worksheet running, most teachers will never even know it is there.16:25
th1aOK.  Moving on... aelkner, how are the report cards coming?16:26
aelkneri'm not ready to drop the worksheet discussion yet16:26
aelknerbecause i don't see a clear definition of what the drop-down should have16:27
aelknerand where the worksheets should go16:27
aelknerfor instance16:27
th1aWorksheets go where they already are.16:27
th1aThe dropdown should have other sections this term.16:27
th1aThere should be links to previous and upcoming terms of the same section.16:27
aelknerso the user chooses 'Algebra I' from the dropdown and gets the algebra 1 for whatever term they were already on16:28
aelknerthe list of worksheets will contain all those for both terms, or only for the current term?16:29
th1aCurrent term.16:29
aelknerah, so nothing needs to change except for adding the links16:29
aelknerto get to another term for the current section16:29
th1aAnd pruning which other sections are listed.16:30
th1aThis strategy was chosen for simplicity.16:30
aelkneri can see that16:30
aelknerso the links of 'Previous' and 'Next' should be buttons on the form16:30
aelknerinstead of context links, right?16:30
aelknerbuttons would be easier16:30
aelknerbecause they can be dynamically drawn on the form16:31
aelknerright next to the drop-down16:31
th1aI've been imagining them as links rather than action buttons.16:31
th1aI don't know what you mean by "context links."16:31
aelknerthe links that appear according to the current context16:31
aelknermenu items16:32
aelknerthey are registered against the context16:32
aelknerso i could have 'Previous' and 'Next' registered againt the gradebook context16:32
ignasyou mean as "Actions"16:32
ignasin the same menu as edit/view links are, the  "Actions" menu16:33
aelknerth1a: what do you mean when you say 'action button'?16:33
aelknerbuttons are on the form16:33
aelkneraction links are up top16:33
th1aThe buttons under the red bar.16:33
aelknerlet's call them links16:33
th1aNo, let's call them buttons.16:33
th1aThey're buttons.16:33
ignasnope, do not add them to the action menu bar16:33
th1aWe don't really want the action buttons to be navigational.16:34
th1aAlthough sometimes they are as a hack.16:34
aelknerwhat th1a refers to as action buttons are the <a>s that are not in the form that are in the menu viewlet manager16:35
aelknerthey go on the top row right below the red bar16:35
ignasi know16:35
aelknerso i agree with ignas that next and previous should not go there16:36
ignaswe seem to be in violent agreement16:36
th1aFuck you ignas.16:36
aelknerno, th1a wanted the opposite i thought16:36
th1aOK, are we ready to move on?16:36
Lumieresome of us are in schools16:36
th1aAnd running text to speech at high volume...16:37
Lumiereand would really rather not have to explain why that word is on their screen <_<16:37
aelknerwell, i can table the previous and next discussion for now to give my report16:37
th1aI'm just expressing my violent agreement.16:37
aelknerwell, i got the report card pdf to work now16:38
aelknerit doesn't look pretty, but it succeeds in gathering the data from the schoolyears's section gradebooks16:39
th1aShould I take a look at this in your branch?16:39
aelkner bzr+ssh:// is the push branch16:40
aelknerso you could pull from there16:40
aelknerignas: does he need to use a different url?16:40
ignasaelkner: yes16:41
aelkneras in?16:41
aelkneri haven't merged thrunk nack there yet16:42
aelknerso you may want to wait until i do that16:42
aelkneri can do that right after the meeting16:42
th1aaelkner: OK.  And we need to talk about SLA.  Do you want to do that later on the phone on here?16:43
aelknerphone would be best16:43
th1areplaceafill: How are you?16:43
replaceafillth1a, well i added arrow keys navigation to the cando student gradebook16:43
th1aAh.  So theoretically that'd work for the SchoolTool gradebook as well?16:44
replaceafillnow, im studying the cando.virginia package in order to fix the next bug16:44
replaceafillwell, i based my code on the existing code of the cando gradebook16:44
aelkneri can port that later16:45
aelknerth1a: please let me be the one to do that16:45
* Lumiere wishes that were refactored into a cando.competencies and a cando.virginia package (one for the basics of comps and one for VA specific stuff (long term!))16:45
replaceafillyes its not difficult16:45
aelkneri know16:45
* Lumiere feels massive pain from 24 screaming 5th graders in his room...16:45
replaceafilland i wanted to ask about the question Miguel put in launchpad16:46
th1aAh, the one in spanish?16:46
replaceafillin ubuntu the schooltool-2008 package, sets the *.po files in the locales directory16:46
replaceafillbut doesnt compile them16:46
replaceafillis there any way to compile them?16:46
replaceafillcause i always compile the es/LC_MESSAGES/schooltool.po template by hand using msgfmt16:47
replaceafilland i know schooltool.conf has a "lang" setting16:47
replaceafillbut i didnt find a match in ubuntu's /etc/schooltool/16:48
replaceafilli answered miguel but i thought maybe theres another way16:48
ignasschooltool.conf that is in packages is missing some parts and should be updated16:48
ignasi did not know the po files in the last release were not compiled though16:49
ignasand will look into that16:49
replaceafillyes, in my ubuntu i have all the *.po but no *mo16:49
ignasI see16:49
replaceafillbut compiling by hand works :)16:49
ignasyeah, must be a flaw in our packaging workflow16:49
ignasbecause eggs do have the templates compiled16:50
replaceafillth1a, i guess that's it from me16:50
th1aOK, thanks replaceafill.16:51
th1aAnything else Lumiere?16:51
Lumiereignas and I spent a few hours Monday and Tuesday working through making 2008.10 work as a KGS16:51
Lumierefor CanDo (and it can be used for anyone running a release-branch of SchoolTool in the longer term)16:51
th1aAh, so that makes your CanDo bugfix releases easier?16:52
Lumiereit makes it so a schooltool bugfix for cando can be released16:52
Lumiereand the versions required aren't messed up16:52
Lumiere(for example, the KGS that ignas builds forces versions on st eggs and stuff like ReportLab so it compiles)16:53
Lumiereit also had the added benefit of getting the buildbot working for cando again16:53
Lumiereso cando.cando2007 eggs are building16:53
Lumiere(although not tested)16:53
ignaswhat do you mean not tested?16:54
Lumiereignas also helped me get started on research for what would be required to move to bzr16:54
ignasthey are tested before being packaged16:54
Lumiereignas: have you tried to start cando from the egg?16:54
ignasahh, that part, well - nope ;)16:54
Lumierethat's all I mean by not tested16:54
ignasbut removing the "develop = ." part should allow you to test it16:54
ignasremoving it from buildout.cfg16:55
LumiereI'll try that later16:55
th1aOK.  That should wrap it up.16:56
th1aAny last words?16:56
Lumierestability, stability, stability?16:56
ignaswell you know what i'd say ;)16:57
Lumieresomething random about eve online?16:57
th1aHave a great week gentlemen!16:57
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.16:57
th1aHow's EVE treating you ignas?16:57
yvlthanks, th1a16:57
ignasfine, thank you must run to another meeting ;)16:58
replaceafillyvl, u have a minute?16:58
aelknerth1a: shall i call you now?16:58
ignasyvl: not at the moment, he will in a n hour or so16:58
ignasreplaceafill: ^16:58
replaceafillignas, ah ok, thanks16:58
th1aaelkner: Give me five minutes.16:59
th1aaelkner: I'm ready.17:05
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aelknerignas: help!18:05
ignasaelkner: what?18:11
aelkneri have code on SLA's installation that's older than the code in the repositiry18:12
aelknerand it needs to be that way becuase we're not ready to update them18:12
aelknerwhen i do bzr revno and bzr log18:12
aelkneri get the results for the latest revision in launchpad, not the one on the SLA machine18:13
aelknerhow do ask bzr to tell me what revno actually is on the machine18:13
aelknerand isn't it dumb that bzr revno would return 163 even though 163 canges are not in the source code?18:14
aelkneri'm having to look at each diff going back from 163 and seeing whether the code is in fact there18:14
yvlreplaceafill, I'm here :)18:19
aelknerignas: ?18:19
yvlwill be leaving shortly, so shoot :)18:19
replaceafillhey yvl18:19
replaceafillcan i ping u tomorrow?18:19
replaceafilljust wanted to ask u something about cando18:19
replaceafillbut i'm at work right now18:19
yvlyou can email, btw18:19
replaceafillmaybe i can ask u tomorrow18:19
yvljustas at pov.lt18:20
replaceafillah sure, will do that better :)18:20
replaceafillok, thanks18:20
yvldeal ;)18:20
ignasaelkner: a sec18:20
ignasaelkner: got distracted by Ubuntu cola18:20
aelknerno prob18:21
ignasaelkner: you should ask that in #bzr18:21
aelknerit's not obvious from bzr help, is it?18:21
ignasaelkner: don't know really18:35
aelkneri got the answer on #bzr18:39
aelknerignas: it's bzr version-info as opposed to bzr revno18:39
aelknerthen i would need to do bzr log -r 1..160 to get the log for changes up to revision 16018:39
aelknerwhich i got back from bzr version-info18:40
aelknerit's a hassle, but i can deal with it18:41
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Lumierebzr info18:52
aelknerLumiere: the issue is that bzr revno and bzr log give you what is on the branch18:57
aelknerand not what's in the working tree18:57
aelknerso one has to use bzr version-info to get the actual 'working' version18:57
aelknerand then use bzr log -r 1..'working revision' to get the actual log18:59
aelknerah, but this only seems to be the case for checkouts, not branches19:01
th1aAh, the checkout/branch dichotomy.19:01
Lumiereaelkner: bzr info should give yo working tree info19:02
Lumiereaelkner: you could always write a python-bzr script called bzr-wt-log :)19:03
Lumiereor w/e19:03
th1aor wtf19:04
aelknerLumiere: the folks at #bzr suggested writing a shell script call wt_log(), so you're on the same page as them19:06
Lumiereth1a: nice!19:07
LumiereI second th1a's... bzr-wtf has a great ring to it ;)19:07
th1aI'm working on being more subtle.19:07
LumiereI swear if we had a quotes list for this channel19:07
Lumierethat would so be on it19:08
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th1aaelkner: Chris said tonight is good.21:41
aelknerth1a: ok, i'll do it tonight21:42
aelknerth1a: can i call you?21:55
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