IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2008-09-22

*** alga has quit IRC02:57
*** jstraw has joined #schooltool03:52
*** wgrant has quit IRC05:06
*** wgrant has joined #schooltool08:20
*** yvl has joined #schooltool12:34
*** mgedmin has joined #schooltool12:54
*** alga has joined #SchoolTool13:13
*** mgedmin has quit IRC13:43
*** ignas has joined #schooltool14:03
*** yvl has quit IRC14:29
*** yvl has joined #schooltool14:29
*** mgedmin has joined #schooltool14:36
*** jstraw has quit IRC15:22
*** jelkner has joined #schooltool15:29
*** th1a has joined #schooltool15:42
jelknergood morning th1a!15:43
*** yvl has quit IRC15:43
th1agood morning jelkner.15:53
*** dwelsh has joined #schooltool16:05
*** jstraw has joined #schooltool16:20
th1agood morning ignas, aelkner, dwelsh, jstraw.16:31
ignasth1a: good morning16:31
aelknergood morning16:31
th1aIs yvl around?16:32
ignasi can get him to sit down16:32
ignashe's somewhere in the office ;)16:32
ignasok, it seems that he's poisoning himself somewhere outside16:33
jstrawignas: poisoning himself with sun?16:34
ignasjstraw: nope, cigaretes16:34
th1aSo I got the thumbs up from Aiste on the switcheroo, so we're set whenever aelkner and yvl are ready.16:34
th1aPeople in Lithuania smoke.16:34
aelknerfunny i don't remember him smoking at the sprint16:34
jstrawhe didn't16:34
jstrawnot even once16:35
jstrawor I would have known :)16:35
jelknerhe quit while he was here16:35
jelknerhe was trying to quit16:35
dwelshbut back to the meeting...16:35
jstrawlol welsh...16:35
dwelshaelkner tells me that justas is trying to get tests to pass16:35
dwelshI'm wondering where he's at with that16:35
jelknergreat question16:36
dwelshaelkner and I touched base on Friday and are ready for the switch16:36
jelknerthat is holding replaceafil as well16:36
jelknerhe wants to start trying to develop16:36
jelknerbut to do tdd, he needs all the tests to pass16:36
dwelshBrief Arlington Public Schools CanDo/SchoolTool installation report16:36
dwelshALL CTE teachers in Arlington Public Schools are now using CanDo/SchoolTool16:37
*** yvl has joined #schooltool16:37
dwelshThat's 55 teachers, 76 courses, 259 sections, and a database of 9,600 students16:37
jstraw'morning yvl16:37
dwelshCanDo/SchoolTool is stable and performing very well.16:37
dwelshBut we have a number of minor features to add regarding reports, usability, etc.16:38
dwelshThe first set of these is reported on Launchpad.16:38
dwelshI am spending a lot of my time making sure that the needs of these 55 users are met.16:38
dwelshI believe that adding these usability and reporting features will really lock-in their commitment to using CanDo/SchoolTool16:39
dwelshThe VA State pilot is now set to start in January 2009, with second semester classes.16:39
th1aPresumably that's what aelkner is going to do?16:39
dwelshThis delay in the State Pilot may be a blessing as we'll get to add our minor features and improve usability16:39
dwelshSo overall, the report is quite good.16:40
dwelshI'm amazed how well our development team did this past summer16:40
jstrawI think that reporting features need to be done at the schooltool level16:40
dwelshEspecially as we covered from the surprise transition from Eldar to Sufitchi16:40
dwelshKudos to one and all!!!16:40
ignasjstraw: what kind of features precisely?16:41
th1aaelkner should be able to determine which go where.16:41
th1aWe can link bugs between projects, right?16:41
aelkneryeah, welsh and i can work that stuff out16:41
dwelshI do have a question with regards to users and permission classes16:42
dwelshWe now have administrators on the system.16:42
dwelshThey will want to be able to look at all classes and sections in the system.16:42
th1a(we can mark the bugs that affect schooltool in launchpad)16:42
dwelshThey also will want to see reports that relate to all sections and classes16:42
dwelshAre these permissions setup correctly?16:42
th1aThey should be.16:43
dwelshAny issues related to administrator right and permissions will be SchoolTool issues, right?16:43
th1aI mean, that's the design.  If it doesn't work, it is a bug.16:43
th1aIt depends.16:43
dwelshSo Alan can help decide the "depends"?16:44
th1aIt could be either.16:44
ignasi will help you decide that ;)16:44
th1aYou could screw up just the permissions on your data.16:44
th1aOr we might have screwed up the whole thing.16:44
dwelshI'm assuming that any permissions our administrators will want, ANY administrator will want.16:44
dwelshIt's an opportunity to drive development with real users.16:45
th1aWell... in terms of viewing data, that should be reasonably straightforward.16:45
th1aEditing that kind of data is not so clear cut.16:45
dwelshSo we'll be good about writing user stories and bugs, and you guys can take a look at it.16:46
ignasschooltool permissions are flexible enough16:46
ignasto allow cando have mostly anything they want16:46
th1aIt is not going to be a big deal.16:46
ignaswithout much help from schooltol16:46
dwelshMy own philosophy -- define the groups well, so that a minimum of permission tweaking is required.16:46
dwelshPermission tweaking becomes complicated, quickly, and is rarely worth the effort.16:47
ignasdwelsh: i am talking about defining groups16:47
dwelshok.  understood.  groups are the way to go16:48
dwelshJustas, how is it going getting the tests to pass?16:48
yvlI'm planning to commit tomorrow16:48
dwelshAre those big or little problems?16:48
th1aWhat gets complicated down the road is adding more finely grained groups -- what should a guidance counselor be able to see?  School psychologist, etc.16:49
yvlalong with one bugfix (one of the gradebook views had the javascript broken)16:49
dwelshThere should just be four big groups... 1) students; 2) teachers; 3) administrators; 4) schooltool manager16:49
dwelshI think we have a "data clerk" now, but I've always said that no one knows what that means.16:49
dwelshIf we get those four groups to work well, then we've cracked 95% of the problem.16:50
ignasdwelsh: and then there are these small groups like "teacher of a student" "leader of a resource" "leader of a group" "member of a section" and etc. and they are the other 95% of the problem ;)16:50
jstrawI agree with th1a16:51
dwelshIt's the role of administrator that I've looked at least, but will need to look at with alan over the next few months.16:51
ignasadministrator need attention16:51
ignasthat's for sure16:51
th1aAnyhow, I think we're all in agreement on focusing on the easier 80%.16:51
th1aI'm just saying, there is a trickier 20% that lies in wait.16:51
dwelshRight.  that's the place to start.16:51
jstrawwe need to have a system where groups can be given permissions16:51
th1aAnyhow... sorry I stepped on yvl there.16:52
dwelshYes.  But the definition of those permission, and their implementation throughout SchoolTool/CanDo, is not organized at all.16:52
dwelshIt was literally impossible to control.16:52
ignasdwelsh: em really? cando had no changes to schooltool permissions IIRC16:53
ignaseven if there are - there are 2-3 tweaks16:53
th1aI don't want to rehash this permission discussion further.16:53
dwelshWe don't need to.  Let's live and die by groups, and get the big four right.16:53
dwelshThen we can tackle the rest (5-20%) as we need to.16:53
th1aOK... let's get an update from aelkner.16:54
aelknerlast week, we got SLA set up with this year's data16:54
aelknerthere was some feedback about some minor issues, two of which were low hanging fruit16:55
aelknerso i handled them16:55
aelknerthe bigger issue was the gradebook16:55
aelknertwo things16:55
aelkner1) there needs to be a spreadsheet at the gradebook's main view (like cando)16:55
aelknerinstead of forcing the user to drill down to enter grades16:56
aelkner2) SLA wants activities to be totaled instead of averaged16:56
aelknerwhich Tom agreed could be done by supplying both16:56
aelknerso this week, i will be working on improving the gradebook in these ways16:57
aelknerand doing so in time for the intrepid release16:57
aelknerafter i've delivered this to SLA16:57
aelknerwe will want to get busy deploying CAS16:58
th1aDid the meeting push us any further on that?16:58
aelknerwe did go there16:58
aelknerchris had enough on his hands16:59
aelknerjust working on his schooltool instance with me16:59
aelknerhe didn't have any more time16:59
aelknerbut i'm sure he'll find it with in the next two weeks16:59
th1aTheoretically we have the users in sync now though, which is a step toward CAS?16:59
aelknerah, yes, the home page works for them17:00
aelknereven though they have to log in redundantly17:00
th1aOK.  Good.  So we are a good bit closer to being able to throw the switch.17:00
th1aWhat doesn't work with CAS?17:01
aelknerthree things need to happen for cas17:01
aelkner1) schooltool needs to be configured to use it (trivial)17:02
aelkner2) moodle needs to be configured and pathed to use it17:02
aelkner3) drupaled needs to be configured to use it17:02
aelknerah, and one more thing17:02
th1aAnd you've done those things on development servers.17:02
aelknerthe cas server talks to a user table17:03
aelknerthat needs to be updated with the new users17:03
aelknerchris will have to do that with my help17:03
aelknerthat's it17:03
th1aAnd then there is just other things that would be nice but strictly speaking aren't necessary like logout actually working correctly.17:04
aelknerit would be nice but not within the scope of oct 1517:05
th1aI have a copy of the first report yvl will need to do for SLA.17:06
th1aI'm going to send an email back to them asking a couple of followup questions and cc:yvl.17:06
th1aOverall, it looks very simple though.17:06
th1aSo probably we'll crank out several reports for them and then perhaps we can spend a little time thinking about how we want to manage reports in general.17:07
th1aAnd maybe yvl will spend some time on that.17:07
th1aStep two of the plan is still a little vague.17:08
th1aMake sense?17:08
aelknerstep two?17:09
th1aStep 1) make reports;17:09
th1a2) address report management in SchoolTool?17:09
ignas3) profit17:10
* ignas could not resist17:10
th1aThat's implicit ;-)17:10
ignasthe more vague the step 2 the more profit ;)17:10
aelknerstep one is needed by oct 1517:10
aelknerstep 2 is for the long run17:11
ignasaelkner: how many reports? and when will you have them all?17:11
ignashave as in - know what they are17:11
ignasand how many they need17:11
ignasand make yvl know that ;)17:11
aelkneri only know of one17:11
th1aWe've only promised one report -- that's the one I have.17:11
aelknerthe Narrative Report Card17:11
th1aWhich is pretty simple -- POV could knock it out in a day, probably.17:11
th1aSo we'll need to get more requests from them.17:12
aelknerthey haven't mentioned anything that i can remember17:12
aelknerbut i'm sure they'll come up with things as they use it17:13
ignasso 1 report for oct 1517:13
ignasand them some more stuff17:13
aelknerbut not necessarily right away17:13
aelknerthat's organic17:13
ignasso yvl must do some more organic stuff before oct 15 ;)17:13
aelknertotally by chance what they react to as they use it17:13
th1aNot necessarily.17:13
th1aBasically, when we planned this with Chris, we said 1 report factoring in Alan learning ReportLab.17:14
* ignas just trying to find out what are the commitments for oct 15...17:14
th1a1 report.17:14
th1aHowever, I'm not paying yvl to write 1 report and sit on his hands for the next two weeks.17:15
yvlgood :)17:15
* yvl is thinking about 1-2 week vacation, btw17:15
th1aAh... when?17:16
ignasth1a: can you send the example report to yvl and cc it to me17:16
yvlit would be good if I could start from next week17:16
th1aYes, yes.17:16
th1aStart the vacation next week?  Or the work?17:16
th1aOK.  So finish CanDo stuff and go on vacation?17:17
th1aThat should be fine.17:17
th1ayvl hasn't really done much ReportLab, right?17:17
ignasmuch more than I ever did17:18
th1aOh.  Good.17:18
yvlwell, we use it in one of our products17:18
yvlso - some would be the right word :)17:18
th1aOK.  I figure you learn ReportLab by osmosis at POV.17:18
th1aSo basically we have a couple weeks to get a couple more reports out of SLA before yvl gets started.17:19
aelkneri really don't think they have any reports in mind17:20
aelknerthe only thing they're interested in is the NRC17:20
th1aI am sure they can come up with some.17:20
th1aSo I have to give a SchoolTool presentation this week, so I'm trying to get CanDo and SLA instances running, which is proving to be trying.17:22
ignashow? why?17:22
th1aWell, specifically what we were discussing on Friday was checking in a sample XML file so I can load competencies.17:22
ignasso you want them populated17:23
th1aAnd then aelkner and I were discussing what gradebook related maneuvers I needed to undertake Friday when I had to leave.17:23
aelkneryvl should create an examples directory in cando-refactoring-6 and put the latest valid xml file there17:23
th1aSo I guess I should talk to him more about that.17:23
aelkneri can help with the gradebook issue17:24
aelknerth1a: after the meeting17:25
th1aOK.  Thanks.17:25
th1ayvl:  Make sense?17:25
yvla very good idea17:26
th1aIn theory we'd have sample data generation for competencies, but I won't quibble.17:26
aelknerthe virginia example is better than random samples17:27
aelknerit's big and real17:27
* th1a has to stop bringing up things he *doesn't* want to talk about.17:27
ignasth1a: :)17:27
th1aDid we miss anything?17:28
ignasmaybe ;)17:28
th1aGo ahead.17:28
ignasso - groups are mostly done17:28
ignasthey are not 100% sane17:28
ignasbut the data structures are in place17:29
ignascalendar overlays for groups17:29
ignas(for everything)17:29
algaReST in peace17:29
ignaslevels got removed along the way too17:29
ignasbecause well - we don't need them17:29
ignasso now - timetable schemas17:30
ignasand then active schoolyear UI17:30
ignasand then we will have a toy that we can start breaking in various ways and then fixing ;)17:31
th1aThen, a real student information system.17:31
ignasindeed :)17:31
ignasoh and I have added a fancy browser class for testing that allows me to just:17:32
ignasto start up a server in a functional test17:32
ignasbut that's not in the trunk yet ;)17:32
ignasvery, kept me happy for the whole last week ;)17:33
ignasthat's kind of everything17:33
th1aHappy developers are good.17:33
th1aOK, I think we're done then.17:33
th1aHave a great week folks!17:33
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:34
th1aaelkner: Can you give me a call in about a half hour?17:34
* th1a goes to get a muffin.17:34
*** jelkner has quit IRC17:59
*** th1a_ has joined #schooltool18:05
*** dwelsh has quit IRC18:39
*** alga_ has joined #SchoolTool18:50
*** alga has quit IRC19:04
*** jstraw has quit IRC19:15
*** ignas has quit IRC19:33
th1aaelkner:  all tests pass.19:46
*** alga has joined #SchoolTool20:22
*** alga_ has quit IRC20:22
*** mgedmin has quit IRC20:45
aelknerth1a: let's use irc for now21:30
*** mattva01 has joined #schooltool22:32
th1aaelkner: So I got to the point now where I'm getting an error for not finding demjson.23:28
*** th1a_ has quit IRC23:51

Generated by 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!