IRC log of #schooltool for Thursday, 2008-09-18

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aelknerth1a: ping05:27
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jelknergood morning!15:36
ignasjelkner: good morning ;)15:55
jelknergood morning!15:55
ignasjelkner: your good morning is deemed redundant, as my good morning was a delayed response to your initial good morning ;)15:58
ignasjelkner: good morning!15:58
ignas(had to say it to keep the balance)15:58
ignassomeone has to keep the universe intact!15:58
jelknerand the rest of us are *very* grateful for you efforts15:59
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jelknerfsufitch: good morning!16:12
fsufitchjelkner: hi! :)16:13
jelknerdo you have any idea yet whether you will make it to the sprint?16:13
jelkneraelkner is coming16:13
jelknerand replaceafil will hopefully be there too16:13
fsufitchof course i can16:13
fsufitchi already told you that ;)16:13
jelknerbut we said we would wait to see how school was going16:14
fsufitchwell, school is fine16:14
fsufitchand i can afford to spend a weekend with you guys16:14
jelknerbtw we *love* the work you did on the gradebook!16:14
jelknervery nice16:15
jelknerit looks so good16:15
jelknerand works so well16:15
fsufitchhappy to hear it :)16:15
fsufitchany bugs reported or anything?16:15
aelknerhey guys16:16
fsufitchaelkner: hi16:16
aelknerglad you can come16:16
jelkneryvl fixed them16:16
aelknergot to go to philly now, cya guys16:17
fsufitchaelkner: alright, have a nice trip16:17
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fsufitchignas: ping16:22
ignasfsufitch: pong16:22
fsufitchyay your'e there16:22
fsufitchdo you have time to explain to me how buildout works?16:23
ignasyeah, i guess16:23
ignasnot sure what's there to explain16:23
ignasthe basics are: you have the [buildout] parth16:24
ignasthat is the "main"16:24
ignasand it has parts = ...16:24
ignasthat sets all the parts that will get built by default16:24
ignasthings that are [foo] with some definition after them are called parts16:24
ignasand then it's up to each part to do it's stuff16:25
ignasso if part has a recipe set16:25
ignaslike zc.recipe.egg16:25
ignasfor example16:25
ignasthe egg recipe will tell buildout what to do to build that part16:25
ignasif there is no recipe16:25
ignasthat part is probably only used as a data storage16:25
ignasto for example set versions of packages16:25
ignasso you could write version = name_of_a_part16:26
ignasor python = python_2416:26
fsufitchi c16:26
fsufitchbut how do i just start setting it up ;)16:26
fsufitchcuz i have no idea where to start16:26
fsufitchis there a tutorial somwhere u owuld recommend16:26
ignashmm, look at schooltool buildout.cfg ;)16:27
ignasis quite comprehensive16:27
ignasbut is a bit plone oriented16:27
ignasyou should probably start from finding a way to install buildout though ;)16:27
ignasunless you want to use bootstrap.py16:28
ignasprovided by schooltool16:28
fsufitchright now i'm working off a school computer16:28
fsufitchw/o root power16:28
ignasin that case - you want the schooltool setup16:28
ignaslook at16:28
fsufitchor i want to talk to my teacher to give me root :-P16:28
th1a_ignas:  You need to decide if you want to go to the Intrepid summit in California.16:28
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ignasfsufitch: give me a second16:28
ignasth1a: i don't think i have meaningful questions to ask or suggestions to make, i mean - i know the goal which is "have our zope3 packages in interpid"16:29
ignasbut it is a very high level goal16:29
th1aHm... well we have to figure out something to push it through.16:30
ignasfsufitch: has the configuration that is closes to the bare minimum16:30
ignasth1a: from what I understand the first blocker is - have our packages providing a fluid migration path from the old zope3 packages16:31
ignasthe problem is - i am not using the old packages16:31
ignasjinty on the other hand - is16:31
ignasor at least was using them to run some of his projects16:31
ignasfsufitch: you need buildout.cfg and look at the makefile for instructions of how do you get it to run/build16:32
ignasfsufitch: look at too16:32
ignasand if you are not using svn - at MANIFEST.in16:33
ignasyou can probably skip the magic for your project, as it is mostly for making sane releases and dev releases16:33
ignasand is bzr specific16:33
ignasth1a: i should know who I want/have to meet, and what I want to find out from them before spending your money on summits...16:34
fsufitchi'm using bzr though16:34
ignasth1a: i mean - maybe an email to the right person is enough, maybe there is no right person...16:34
ignasfsufitch: i see, then you will need if you will want to do "python sdist" or any other kind of packaging16:35
ignasyou won't need it if you will only use the stuff from a checkout though...16:35
fsufitchwell the thing i will need it for is to make it system independent, you know?16:36
fsufitchlike schooltool is16:36
fsufitchbecause i won't be able to install zope on school comps16:37
fsufitchand additionally, i don't wnat to include a code of z3c.form with my code, or other janx16:37
ignaswell - is the place you define your dependencies16:37
ignasjelkner, th1a: hmm, by the way do you have any ideas about how it would be best/easiest/sanest to add parent login support to schooltool?16:40
* ignas has 2 ideas16:40
ignasfirst is - normal schooltool logins16:40
ignasbut that adds 2x students users to schooltool, adds a new role and stuff16:40
ignasanother one is - add something like "eve api keys"16:41
ignaslike - manager can generate a pair of keys for public gradebook access16:41
ignasfor a student16:41
ignasand can invalidate/regenerate them any time he wants16:41
ignasor something like that16:41
jelkneri like the 2nd idea16:41
th1aI'm not sure what that would look like to the parent.16:42
ignasso if a parent asks for access to the gradebook - admin goes to the student, goes to "generate parent key"16:42
jelkneralthough, there is a use case where a parent has more than one student in the system16:42
ignasand parent goes to some special place in the system where he inputs16:42
ignaslike john + another password16:42
ignasthat logs him in, but not as a student16:42
ignasbut rather as students parent16:42
ignashmm, well - having a password for each student16:43
ignasyou can look at16:43
ignasis a bit cumbersome, but maybe we could live with that...16:43
th1aIn the long run, you probably want things like separate contact info for parents.16:44
ignasor maybe not a password but a "passwordish" url would be enough16:44
ignasth1a: that you can have in students demographics16:44
ignasth1a: we have it in our schooltool.demographics info16:44
ignasi mean - maybe having separate full users for schooltool to allow parents to see some data is not necessary...16:45
ignashmm, in ivija - we use the unique url strategy16:45
ignasand it works...16:46
ignaslike - you generate a
ignasurl and give it to the person you want to give access to16:46
ignasyou can't guess them16:46
th1aOur data is too sensitive for that kind of thing.16:46
ignasthe fastes way to do it with passwords would be the "assign a set of parent passwords to a student login" and have parents log in through a different page/check a checkbox way16:50
ignasbecause it saves us the user management part16:50
ignasthe benefit of having full parent users is - you get to assign more than one student to a parent16:51
th1aIs there still a person-like object for each parent?16:52
ignasi would like to avoid it16:52
ignasif I can16:52
ignasbecause else - we have to manage these person-like objects16:52
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ignaswhich is the point of "plan 2" ;)16:52
ignasi think it is easier to add "links" between parents to allow a parent of one child access other child without logging in twice16:53
ignasthan to have parents as full schooltool persons16:54
th1aYes... but they would be some kind of "lite" person object?16:54
ignasyou add demographics of parents to person anyway, and it is in person annotations or somewhere else16:54
ignasso you can add "parent password list"16:55
ignaseven disconnected from demographics16:55
ignasand just that list is enough16:55
ignasyou only have 1 username16:55
ignasbut you have 1 password for the real login, and a set of passwords that you can reset, remove for parents16:55
ignasand a set of views that know about that login, that is quite isolated from the rest of the system16:56
ignasand is more "report" like16:56
ignasinstead of "i am using a SIS application" like16:56
* th1a on the phone w/jelkner.16:56
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th1aSo this might be more controllable than checking to see if each user has any children.17:05
ignasor having relationships17:07
ignasfor users17:07
ignasi mean - you remove a user - he loses parents, you archive user - parent access get's disabled17:08
ignasthe data is very sensitive as you said17:08
ignaswhich is why such a thing would be like "sudo"17:08
ignasyou give access without giving password of the user17:08
ignasand in this case - without giving a full account17:08
ignasso you keep parents behind a barrier17:09
ignassomeone who has logged in, still can see/do more than someone who well - is not logged in and has no account on your system17:09
ignasschool should not be providing "calendaring" application for parents of students ;)17:09
th1aYes, but you might want a parent to be able to comment on something.17:10
ignasallowing is easier17:10
ignasthan hiding17:10
ignasanother thing is17:10
ignashiding parents17:10
ignasfrom the staff17:10
ignasbecause staff most of the time does not want to do anything with parents17:11
ignasso you suddenly have not 8k of users17:11
ignasbut more like 16K17:11
ignasand 8k of these - you don't care about17:11
ignasbut still have in "persons" list, have to filter out constantly17:11
ignasand have to remove/archive17:11
ignaswhen students graduate17:11
ignasand "dearchive" when their yougster get's into the school17:11
ignasso in one case - i have to add "passwords for parents"17:12
ignas"a new login form"17:12
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ignas"a set of report views for gradebooks that react to the new login form"17:12
ignasin the other case - parents have to be considered in a lot of parts of the system desing, because they are a new role17:13
th1aOK.  This is sounding reasonable to me.17:13
ignasthough, maybe we should have parents as full users of the system, and get them more involved, and think of parents when writing journals (cando style), gradebooks, timetables and other parts of the system17:13
ignasi mean - in some sense it makes for a better application that does *more*17:14
ignasand increases the teacher/parent/student collaboration etc.17:14
ignasjust that it adds cognitive load for developers ;)17:14
th1aThere isn't some reason we're trying to decide this right now is there?17:15
th1aI mean, it is a good idea, but I've been thinking of parent access as a post 1.0 thing.17:17
ignasyeah, no reason to decide, just thinking about it while tests are running ;)17:48
th1aIt is worth starting to think about.  I just wasn't sure if this had some bearing on the great term rearrangement.17:48
ignasno, not really17:50
ignasjust jelkner mentioned it17:50
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aelknerth1a: ayt?22:15
th1aI am here, aelkner.22:16
aelknerwe had a very productive meeting today22:16
th1aSounded like it.22:16
th1aDid you get my email?22:19
aelknerregarding the gradebook?22:20
aelknerif so, you think i should add the total column next to the average column22:20
th1aThat seems reasonable to me, but I'm not actually looking at it right now.22:21
th1aI mean, is there any reason not to?22:22
aelknerwell, i'm not sure22:22
aelknercould it confuse?22:22
aelknershould we ask jeff what he thinks22:23
aelknerit's a good way to deliver quickly22:23
th1aI don't think it is confusing.  The only possible issue is the amount of space it takes up, which isn't really an issue yet.22:23
aelknerperhaps confusing is the wrong term22:23
aelknertell you what22:23
aelkneri'll do it, and if jeff has something to say about it22:24
aelknerwe can deal with that when the time comes22:24
th1aIn the longer run we'22:24
th1all probably want people to be able to choose which stats are visible.22:24
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