IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2008-09-08

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jelknerth1a: u here yet?15:59
jelkneryvl: r u here?16:13
ignasjelkner: nope, he's not in the office16:18
ignasjelkner: anything I can help you with?16:19
* th1a was in the shower.16:21
th1ajelkner: ping.16:24
jelknerth1a: i'm going to call16:25
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jstraw'morning all16:30
th1ahi aelkner, ignas, replaceafill, jstraw.16:30
ignashi th1a, jstraw, replaceafill, aelkner ;)16:31
aelknerhi ignas16:31
jstraw´╗┐hi ignas, jstraw, replaceafill, aelkner 8-)16:31
jstrawoops ;)16:31
jstraw(been a long day already... )16:32
replaceafillgood morning everyone16:32
th1aaelkner: Want to start us off?16:33
aelknerso i'm still waiting to here from the SLA folks  on getting together to deploy the CAS solution16:34
aelknerfirst step is to get the sections into schooltool16:34
aelkneri had to change my sql script for generating the csv files for importing16:34
aelknerbut i also need to discuss with Marcie the results of my new queries to make sure the csv file is accurate16:35
th1aDid Chris tell you about WIlfredo?16:36
aelknerno what?16:36
th1aAh... he left apparently.  This is the problem with having a too small budget for sys admins.  They leave.16:36
th1aActually, I've found that's true of programmers, too.16:36
aelknerwhat's he going to do about the laptops for the kids16:37
th1aSo things are in even more turmoil there than you might realize.  I don't know what they're doing.16:37
aelknerthey must be going crazy16:37
aelknerthat would explain why they haven't gotton back to m16:38
th1aSo the key here is to not get stuck waiting for them right now and not getting other tasks done.16:38
aelknerwell, i took your advise on that score16:39
th1aAlso, this is why getting things done *before* school starts is so important  ;-)16:39
aelknerand started learning ReportLab16:39
aelkneri've done the once over of the manual16:39
aelkneri played a little with creating my own pdf files16:40
th1aI think I sent you a copy of my crappy report generating script a while ago...16:41
aelkneri see that one could use the PLATYPUS system16:41
aelknerfor templating16:41
th1aignas: Do you guys use that?16:41
aelknerum, i looked for that email becuase i remembered you sending t16:41
aelknerbut i can't seem to find it now16:41
aelknerdo you remember a keyword from that email?16:42
ignasth1a: yeah, i think it is quite buggy, but there are no better things to use, so we use it ;)16:42
th1aI can re-send it, although as usual, you may just pick up some bad habits from me.16:42
aelknerplease do, and i'll try not to develop any bad habits16:43
aelknerdid you use PLATYPUS?16:44
th1aI think it is pretty much unavoidable.16:44
th1aUnless you want to re-implement the same functionality yourself.16:44
aelknerwell, yes and no16:44
* th1a doesn't really remember.16:45
aelknerin a simple case, one could just draw the report16:45
aelknerbut if the report is delivering multiple cases of the same form of data16:45
aelknerthen it's better to use the templating16:45
aelknerfor instance, the narrative report card will use a template16:45
aelknerignas: can i pick your brain regarding ReportLab and schooltool?16:46
ignasaelkner: i think PLATYPUS is responsible not just for templating, but for layout too16:47
ignasaelkner: not that I know much about it...16:47
aelkneri don't think so16:47
ignasaelkner: but just ask, and i'll try to find the answer...16:47
aelknerok, i was just going to say that there are form objects that one could use without using PLATYPUS16:48
aelknerbut that's not important16:48
aelknermy questions are:16:48
aelkner1) do you know who added ReportLab to schooltool's and for what project?16:48
aelkner2) does schooltool have an example of delivering a file to the user16:49
aelkneri could figure out how to do that myself, but it would save time to see a working example16:49
aelknerthose are my questions16:49
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ignasaelkner: hmm, 1. i think Gintas did it16:49
ignas2. yes, pdf calendar view16:50
ignasviews even16:50
aelknerso there's a view in schooltool for delivering a pdf of the calendar?16:50
aelknerthat'll save me time16:51
jstrawalthough that view could stand to be updated too ;)16:51
* th1a definitely used Playtpus.16:52
ignasjstraw: i can help you if you need help doing it16:52
th1ajstraw: We accept patches!  ;-)16:52
jstrawif I weren't drowning in my new job16:52
aelknerignas: so Gintas wrote the pdf view for teh calendar?16:53
aelknerhave you played with it?16:53
aelkneri.e., had to make a change at any time?16:53
th1aThe printed calendar is essentially a list.16:53
jstrawis that view i18n'd?16:54
ignasaelkner: not much, mostly fixing calendaring related bugs, and some i18n related stuff, but not all...16:54
ignasjstraw: i think there were some issues with 18n,  not sure if all of them were fixed16:55
ignasjstraw: no one uses that view anyway ;)16:55
ignasjstraw: and I found it easier to just add print.css than generate new PDF's for some places16:55
th1aBasically, we could have spent the last two years just improving the calendar.16:56
th1aBut we had to do some other things...16:56
th1aaelkner: Anything else?16:56
aelknerreal quick, ignas, how do i export my calendar?16:57
aelknerto pdf, i mean?16:57
ignasemm, you got the "print" link16:57
th1aActually, you should probably call me after the meeting to discuss how to handle the SLA and other politcs.16:57
ignassomewhere on the UI16:57
ignasif you have fonts dir configured in schooltool.conf properly16:58
aelknerth1a: i'll call you after you drop the bag of gravel16:58
aelknerignas: i just see buttons for yearly, weekly, etc16:58
th1aYes... is that configured to work by default in our .deb?16:58
aelknerlinks for new event and open in iCal16:58
ignasth1a: i don't think aelkner is looking at a .deb installation16:58
ignasaelkner: instance/schooltool.conf has some lines that mention fonts16:59
ignasfix them and restart the server16:59
aelknercomment back in the reportlab_fontdir, right?17:00
aelkneri did so and restarted schooltool, but i still don't see a link for getting the pdf view17:01
ignaslook for print button17:02
ignasth1a: where did you put it the last time? ;)17:02
th1aThe print button?  I don't remember.17:02
th1aMake sure the fonts are actually in the fontdir.17:02
ignasPrintable PDF17:03
th1adoes make ubuntu-environment fetch them?17:03
ignasnext to Open in ICal17:03
ignasfonts are sudo apt-get install msttcorefonts17:03
aelknerit comes up with a config screen17:05
aelknertalking about defoma17:05
aelknerFor uses of msttcorefonts not related to the X Window System (e.g. printing) this is not required.17:05
aelknerso it says...17:06
ignasdon't know what you are seeing, I had this package installed ages ago...17:06
th1aJust install it.17:06
aelkneri hit the ok button17:07
aelknerand it's moving along trying to get stuff from sourceforge17:07
th1aYes yes, that's fine.17:07
aelknerit's getting stuck waiting for the site17:07
th1aOK... lets move this to a background process.17:07
th1aignas: What's up?17:08
ignasth1a: well, Sections and Courses are in place17:08
ignasnow I am going to tackle Groups17:08
ignaswhich is tricky because of permissions mostly17:08
ignasbut doable ;)17:09
th1aWhat's tricky about the permissions?17:09
th1aI mean, in this case.  ;-)17:09
ignaswell - if we get more than one group container, we need a way to tell which of them is the "TRUE" one17:09
ignasso we would know which Manager group is the real one17:10
th1aBy TRUE you mean current?17:10
ignasalso - I just understood that in the beginning - there are no school years17:10
ignasso emm, where do we get the info about who is the super user of the system?17:10
ignasmaybe I could just make Manager a super user17:11
th1aBecause users are under years?17:11
ignaspersons are global17:11
ignasgroups are under years17:11
ignasas in - make Manager flag a part of the person17:11
th1aOh, right.17:11
th1aThat is probably a good idea.17:12
ignasand add all the Manager persons to the Manager group as soon as you create the groups container17:12
ignasactually, having the "root" user and "managers" as separate concepts with identical rights might probably work...17:13
ignaswell - i'll have to look at it deeper, but these are the tricky parts related to Group container refactoring17:13
ignasother than that - I have school timetables17:13
ignasand i'll be done with the data structures and will concentrate on the UI17:14
ignasand making the functionality sane and intuitive17:14
ignasI am making a long list of things that should be implemented17:14
ignasand ordering it...17:14
ignasi think i will post it somewhere17:15
ignasto keep you updated17:15
th1ajstraw: How do things look in CanDo-land?17:16
jstrawpretty good17:16
th1aChutes or Ladders?17:16
jstrawwe just finished entering all the classes/students17:16
jelkneri know dwelsh gave me a glowing report of the new gradebook17:16
jstrawignas: we could use an option to raise the number of people per page17:16
jstrawit is pretty nice when the JS is working properly17:17
jstrawwe have 9000+ students in the system now17:17
jstrawwe'll see how fast/slow it is17:17
ignasjstraw: how many persons per page do you want?17:17
jstrawas teachers start to insert students into their classes17:17
jstrawignas: a choice between 20, 50 and 100 maybe?17:17
th1aJS = JavaScript?17:18
ignasjstraw: well - if you have extra interns, i can point them to the places in the code17:18
th1aOr point yvl?17:18
ignasyeah, can do that as well i guess17:19
th1aSo are teachers going to start using it now?17:20
ignasthough the complexity depends on whether you want it as a preference for a user, a user+view or global for the whole system...17:20
th1aI have some resource tracking feedback from my local users:17:22
th1aNice work. I just upgraded and it all went smoothly and, yes, the interface changes are a clear improvement. There are currently 7 reservations in our calendar that were not made by me. And they're not all by the same person.17:22
* ignas likes our release process17:23
th1aYes.  It is good.17:23
jstrawignas: I have no interns17:24
jstrawignas: school starts and they all go back to school17:24
jstrawI can start asking for feedback on current trunk buildout's scheduling17:24
ignasjstraw: well - it is going to get turned upside down, and emm - we know it sucks :/17:25
ignasjstraw: by the way - by scheduling you mean timetabling17:27
ignasor resource booking?17:27
th1aOK.  Guess we're done.17:31
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:31
th1aHave a great week!17:31
aelknerignas: I get the 'Printable PDF' link now for the calendar, so thanks17:32
ignasaelkner: cool :) now you can start testing that stuff17:32
aelkneruh, i think i'll need to get my narrative report card working first, but maybe at some point...17:33
ignastesting means - writing code and looking at how it looks17:34
ignasnot testing as in - testing old views17:35
th1aYou can call me aelkner.17:35
aelknerah, i see17:35
* th1a doesn't know anyone's phone number.17:37
ignas - looks not too nice, but was easy to make ;)17:38
ignasnot 100% complete17:38
ignasjstraw: well, booking sucks less than timetabling ;)17:55
jstrawignas: when you're writing evolution scripts, can you have it print what the script is going to do?17:55
jstrawlol yea17:55
ignasjstraw: i am a bit of a unix person, and evolution script is going to be run by debian installer17:55
ignasjstraw: so usually - no one will see anything...17:55
jstrawd-i has a way to print them17:56
ignasjstraw: i think printing to random places (and stdout is a random place) is not a good idea for doing that... is not a good idea, and don't really have the time to add logging for evolution scripts...17:56
ignasthough we probably should have very detailed logging for that...17:57
ignaslike - telling what went where, not just what the script attempts to do17:57
ignaslike - moved Managers group to the newly created 2008-2009 school year...17:57
ignasand etc.17:57
ignasjstraw: maybe I will add some evolution.log to schooltool when working on this evolution script17:59
ignasbecause it is going to be a huge and unreliable one17:59
ignasbecause we will have to do some heuristics...17:59
ignaslike - should these terms go into the same schoolyear, where should this section go to, and should this section get split up into 3 sections, or not...18:00
ignasth1a: what should we do with the guy who expected that if he'll sudo apt-get install schooltool.gradebook, the gradebook will magically appear in his schooltool?18:01
jelknerth1a: that's me, right?18:02
jelkneri need the schooltool gradebook now18:02
ignasjelkner: no, someone else18:03
jelkneri'm entering courses, students, teachers to my instance18:03
jstrawignas: yea, I just know that if it fails... it would be nice to know wtf happened ;)18:03
ignasjstraw: not like you can do anything about it18:03
ignasand you always should get a traceback that you send to me ;)18:03
ignasjelkner: your instance was created how?18:04
jelknerjstraw did it18:04
jstrawsvn cando <_<18:04
jstrawfrom the refactoring-6 branch18:04
ignasin that case i think it includes the gradebook18:04
jstrawbecause he needs cando too18:04
ignasI *think*18:04
jstrawit may need to be activated18:04
ignasno idea though, because I am quite deliberately not touching schooltool.gradebook18:05
ignasunless I break it18:05
ignasjstraw: as for activation, I think18:10
ignasthere it is quite difficult to do that after you have set up the school :/18:10
ignasor maybe not18:11
ignasyeah, Categories will not be initialized18:11
ignasi *think*18:11
ignasso unless someone rewrites/adapts schooltool.gradebook to work as a plugin18:12
ignasyou can't really add gradebook without an evolution script...18:12
th1aignas: I'm going to answer that.18:12
* ignas wants to have a team of 5-6 experienced Zope3 programmers, and answer these questions with, oh, sorry, it's fixed now, just add this small file to plugins/ directory...18:13
th1ajstraw: What's the problem with booking?18:14
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jstrawth1a: nothing yet18:47
jstrawI just got my first school on it18:47
ignasamazing managers group was hardcoded only in 1 place19:31
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ignasnow we have a super_user that is the root of the system, even if there are no groups at all19:31
fsufitchhi guys19:32
fsufitchmind if i drop in? :)19:32
ignasfsufitch: drop into what? ;)19:32
fsufitchyour meeting19:32
fsufitchi'm home cause i'm sick19:32
ignasfsufitch: whose meeting? SchoolTool meeting was 3 hours ago ;)19:35
fsufitchwell i saw everyone gathered here and you were saying stuff, so i thought it was now19:35
fsufitchoh well :)19:36
fsufitchback to trying to figure out how z3c.form works19:36
fsufitchdo you think u could maybe help?19:37
fsufitchor are u not big on z3c.form?19:37
ignasi like it, but do not really know that much about it19:37
fsufitchi really don't like its documentation, since it doesnt include any of the zcml i need19:37
ignasi haven't even read pcardunes tutorials ;)19:37
ignashave you read them?19:38
fsufitchthat's wat i was looking at19:38
fsufitchi have all my code set up the way it should be, i just dont know how to register it to *work*19:39
ignashmm, cando and schooltool are using z3c form...19:39
fsufitchthey are?!19:39
fsufitchoop, i gots examples! yay19:39
ignaswell - yes, person add form is z3c in schooltool for example19:39
fsufitchignas: do you know the name of that left-most menu in the zmi?19:43
ignasleft most?19:43
ignaszmi ?19:43
ignasnope, no clue, we don't use zmi in schooltool anymore19:43
fsufitchthe zmi? the default skin for zope?19:43
fsufitchwell i know19:43
ignasask srichter or look at rotterdam sources19:44
ignasth1a: ping19:47
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fsufitchignas: ping20:09
fsufitchi just remembered, i have a problem with my python in emacs now that i installed that pyflakes thing20:10
fsufitchwhenever i use """, it freezes emacs20:10
fsufitchit's okay if i view it in a file, but god forbid i should ever type """20:10
ignasi think it's related with """ + enter + indent20:12
ignasso if you do """ """ and then add enter in the middle20:13
ignasit works20:13
ignasI think20:13
ignasi have noticed that problem, but didn't relate it to pyflakes20:13
ignasor flymake20:13
fsufitchit freezes immediately after """ though20:13
ignashmm, strange20:13
ignasit does not freeze on my emacs ....20:14
ignasmaybe because we are using different python modes20:14
th1aignas: pong.20:14
* ignas is using (require 'python) not (require 'python-mode)20:14
ignasth1a: for the next 6 months if you would have to pick one thing - which one is more important - dynamic modification of timetables or levels and "years" for students?20:15
th1aDynamic modification of timetables?20:16
ignaswell - making it possible to change timetable schemas, section members in the middle of schoolyear without messing up gradebooks and attendance20:16
th1aI would say levels.20:17
th1aI mean, I'd rather have all the big pieces in the beta.20:17
ignaswell - i am talking after beta :/20:18
ignasbecause levels are not really designed at all20:18
ignaswe haven't even talked about it yet20:18
th1aWell, we can probably do a way simpler implementation of levels.20:18
th1aWAY simpler.20:18
th1aWAY, WAY simpler.20:19
ignashmm, not sure I can envision it20:19
ignasi mean - from the data structure level20:19
ignaslevels can be a lot simpler than WFMC ones20:19
th1aWell... there are two ways of looking at it.20:19
ignasbut the complexity is in the integration of levels with the rest of the system20:19
ignaswhich I have no idea about20:19
th1aRight.  We can blow that off.20:19
ignasi mean FET has support for that20:19
ignasand I can try looking at how they "think" about levels20:19
th1aThere is levels like "I need to put a simple attribute on each kid and have a nice ui for incrementing it en mass at the end of the year."20:20
th1aAnd then there is "I need an object which both describes the state of a kid and the role of various courses, etc. in the curriculum."20:20
th1aEven that doesn't have to be very complicated.20:21
th1aThe levels could be a sequence of strings.20:21
th1aStephan and I were doing wfmc bong hits.20:22
th1aYou have grade levels in Lithuania?20:22
ignasyeah, i mean - the problem with current levels is - they provide the simple part of the system in a complicated way ;)20:22
ignaswhile are not doing anything about the complicated part of it ;)20:22
ignasyeah they are very central20:22
ignasstudents identify themselves with levels they are in20:23
th1aClearly, Stephan and I are a dangerous team.20:23
ignasand "streams" of the level like (a b c d)20:23
th1aSo if you're in 9th grade 'a' do you go to 10th grade 'a' next?20:24
ignas99% of the time20:24
ignasit is a concept similar to groups , but more fleshed out, and more related to timetabling/ scheduling and teaching20:24
th1aIf we just had very simple levels it would be sufficient.20:24
ignasi see, just that I would like to have the full picture of what we want in the future20:25
ignasso that I know which one of the simple ways20:25
ignasis the one that brings us closer to it20:25
ignasso if we could start discussing how it should work some day20:25
ignasit would be kind of nice, because I have no idea how levels work and are used in US schools20:26
ignasUS scheduling, schoolyear cyctle etc.20:26
th1aI suppose the reason in particular that I was thinking in terms of workflows is that it is a little like a document workflow20:27
th1ain that there can be different people with different permissions to make state changes.20:27
ignasthe simple implementation is having levels is making levels just a bit of demographics information, and maybe adding a subscriber that would cycle them, and that's it...20:32
ignasnow the thing i want in the future20:32
ignasis elevating levels and these "streams"20:32
ignasor "years" as they are called in FET20:32
ignasto the level of groups20:33
ignasbecause they are frankly more important to at least lithuanian schools20:33
ignasthan groups20:33
th1aSorry... was talking to babysitter.20:33
ignasno problem20:33
ignasso having some data structure that defines "1, 2, 3, 4"20:33
th1aGroup-like makes sense.20:34
ignasand a container for "whachamacallits"20:34
ignasthat contain "1a, 1b, ... 4d"20:34
ignasand handle the "new -> 1a -> 2a -> 3a -> 4a -> graduated"20:34
ignasfor students20:34
ignasassign levels to courses to make filtering and section creation more streamlined20:35
ignasif that's right20:35
ignasi mean - in lithuania History for grade 120:35
ignasis not the same as History for grade 220:35
ignasand they are 2 different courses in the paperwork20:35
ignaswhich makes role of levels 2 fold - "grouping people" and "marking stuff"20:36
ignas(as in - it's a more important + general thing than a bit of demographics information)20:36
th1aThat's what I was trying to say above.20:36
ignasso i think of doing it this way: "demographics attribute -> group people -> group stuff"20:38
ignasnot sure how soon though20:38
ignasth1a: can you come up with names for these concepts? levels and the "level groups"20:40
ignasor i don't know what ;)20:40
th1aLevel groups would probably be "cadres."20:40
ignas# A tightly knit group of zealots who are active in advancing the interests of a revolutionary party.20:41
ignasclasses maybe20:41
ignasthough that makes it confusing :/20:41
ignasi mean "classmate" in lithuanian20:41
ignasis someone who is in the same "level group" as you20:42
th1aWell, we do call them cadres in the US, although it is a fairly obscure usage.20:43
th1a"Class" is more common.20:43
ignashmm, do we have a Vocabulary for schooltool20:43
th1aHm... there may be another word I can't quite retrieve...20:43
ignason the net somewhere20:43
th1aYes, but we didn't define this.20:44
ignasthat would explain "Sections" "Courses" "Levels" "Persons"...20:44
ignas"School Timetables"20:44
th1aThere might be some other Roman military term I can't quite recall...20:45
ignasYears (forms, classes)20:45
ignasis how it's written in FET20:45
ignasand sections are called "Activities"20:46
th1aOh... yes, they are forms to you, right?20:46
ignaswell - i think that's what i have been taught in my english lessons20:46
ignasloooong ago ;)20:47
ignas"a grade or class of pupils in a British secondary school or in certain U.S. private schools: boys in the fourth form."20:47
ignasone of the first words i was taught20:47
ignasbecause you had to say "My name is Ignas" "I am 12 years old" "I am learning in the 6th form"20:47
ignasand that kind of stuff ;)20:48
ignasi don't mind any term as long as we have a place we can point people to so they could learn them and translate them to their language...20:48
ignasor dialect of english ;)20:48
th1aYes... form is pretty accurate, except it is a british usage.20:49
th1aI'm not sure we can't just call them 'levels' and use the same term for the group and the attribute.20:49
th1aI mean, they should always match or there's a problem.20:49
ignasth1a: should I add vocabulary.rst to our users-guide or will you do it some time soonish?20:59
ignasor do we already have it21:00
th1aI will add it.  I'm going to work on the docs this week.21:00
ignasi have resolved the super_user on the date_management branch, so tomorrow i will start working on the group container21:02
ignasand now - must go home, it's getting late in here ;)21:02
th1aYep.  Good night.21:02
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