IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2008-06-02

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ignasth1a: good morning16:03
th1aHi ignas.16:03
ignassorry, but I forgot to tell you about my chat with lyceum about you visiting them16:04
ignasit seems that comming before the conference16:04
ignasis not really feasible16:04
ignasit's the very middle of summer, and the only time we could meet with Bronius would be around sprinting or some time around16:05
ignasnot neccesserily in the school though16:05
ignasi mean - just having a lunch might be enough...16:05
ignasi mean if you'd be interested and we'd find the time...16:06
ignaswe still have a month to think about it ;)16:06
th1aIt would be good to have lunch.16:07
th1aI just needed to know when I should fly in and out.16:07
th1aAh... solved my little bzr problem myself just before bugging you...16:08
th1aForgot to put my username@ in my push url.16:08
th1aLaunchpad/bzr's error message isn't very helpful.16:08
mgedminthat's probably fixable in ~/.ssh/config too16:08
mgedminI find it convenient to define my usernames for various ssh servers there16:09
mgedminso that I can tell just the server name (or an alias) to ssh/svn/bzr16:09
th1amgedmin: I enjoyed your conference reports.16:11
lisppaste5ignas pasted "The snippet of ~/.ssh/config" at
mgedminheh, and I enjoyed the conference itself16:11
mgedminadvice for speakers: try to speak as soon as possible16:11
mgedminyou'll only be able to relax afterwards16:11
th1aOf course, everyone knows that, so you also tend to need some pull to get those spots.16:12
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aelknerwbrady: tel jelkner that i made his chane last week, but matt needs to install first, then talk to me16:29
Lumieremorning all16:30
th1aGood morning.16:30
ignashi everyone16:31
wbradyaelkner: im not with jelkner16:31
wbradybut i will see him for lunch if you want me to tell him then16:32
aelknerthat's cool.  he'll probably contact me by then16:32
aelknerignas: when i committed my change to schooltool.gradebook to my branch, did you see that?16:33
ignasno, didn't see that i think16:33
Lumiereaelkner: wbrady is at ACC for the remainder of the school year16:33
ignasemails don't get sent for such branches16:33
Lumierehgrover however is at Yorktown and could relay a message16:34
aelknerthat's a problem16:34
* Lumiere knows by their IP address16:34
hgroveri can tell him that, actually16:34
aelknerignas: in addition to all the other hastles, do we have to lose email notification?16:35
ignaswell - we haven't lost it, but it's only for branches that are being tracked16:35
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th1aLP does emails.16:35
aelknerso how do i get my branches tracked16:35
ignasyou can register your branch with launchpad16:36
ignasand subscribe schooltool checkins user to them16:36
ignasif you want your branch tracked16:36
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ignasbzr push it to lp:~aelkner/schooltool/your_branch first16:38
ignasyou go to launchpad16:38
ignasand well - register a branch16:38
ignasi'll look for the link16:38
th1aDr. Strangemerge or: How aelkner Learned to Stop Worrying and Love bzr.16:38
aelknertolerate will be more likely scenario16:39
ignasthere is a button16:39
ignasnot owners16:39
ignasit's better to register your personal branches16:39
ignaspersonally ;)(16:39
th1aaelkner: So you're feeling pretty confident about CAS right now?16:41
aelknernot too bad, my problem is with schooltool.cas looping infinitely at the moment16:42
aelknerbut i should be able to figure it out soon16:42
th1ajelkner wants to start flogging it in Mass?16:43
aelkneroh, we'll be veterans by then16:43
aelknerbtw, when is Mass16:43
aelknerstill August?16:43
th1aI believe.16:44
aelknerignas: are you using schooltool.cas at lyceum?16:45
ignasit would have tests if we were...16:45
th1aI'm neutral on whether or not this is worth giving a talk, etc. at the conference.  Maybe a BOF.16:45
aelknerwhich conf, Mass or EuroPython?16:46
aelknerThat conf is pretty loose16:46
aelkneryou could probably decide a month from now16:46
jelknerth1a: i'm waiting to talk to you about Mass.16:46
ignasmy "definition" for EP is: (Speaker, Omnivore, Large Tee)16:47
jelknerlet me know when you have a moment16:47
aelkneri mean, emails suggested that it might not even happen16:47
jelkneraelkner: it will happen16:47
aelknerjelkner: what's the status of the Mass conf16:47
jelknerespecially if we do a little promotion for it16:47
th1ajelkner: You're waiting to call or chat here?16:47
jelkneri'll call16:47
jelkner(hurts my fingers less ;-)16:47
jelkneris now a good time?16:47
th1aI;m a little busy right now.16:48
th1aAnyhow, let's get this in gear.16:48
th1aignas: What's up?16:48
jelknerth1a: ok, this afternoon then?16:48
th1aRight after the meeting would be fine.16:48
ignasth1a: not much, nearly finished with "today", but then got sidetracked by related and semi related activities16:49
ignaslike - ongoing bzr migration16:49
ignaswhich lead to remote desktop setup for aelkner ;)16:49
th1aI saw.16:49
ignasremoving of attendance from trunk, which lead to deprecation of old evolution scripts, which reminded me that we should get rid of schoolbell16:50
ignaswhich I did16:50
ignasso now trunk has no BBB and deprecation stuff16:50
ignasand no magical reimports, circular import chickens16:50
ignasand displays a clear warning16:50
ignasto upgrade to 2008.04 first16:50
ignasbefore migrating to trunk16:50
ignasi was planning to do these things immediatelly after our release, but somehow forgot ...16:51
th1aRIP SchoolBell.16:51
ignasyep, the name is free again, so if someone will want to create a school setup for schoolbell - he can use the name ;)16:52
th1aIt could be done... by someone else.16:52
ignasyes :D16:52
ignasone more thing i just have to do some time sooner rather than later is come up with a strategy for translations16:52
ignaseither - extract it into 1 file, upload it to launchpad and create tools to split it16:53
ignasinto all the eggs16:53
ignasor upload 5 separate translation templates16:53
ignasone for every egg16:53
ignasone is more confusing to translators, the other means more work for me upfront16:53
ignasbut we should get translations going16:54
ignasthat's kind of it16:54
th1aWhat is the difference from the translator's point of view?16:54
ignaswell - you either have 1 single translation page in launchpad16:54
ignasthat has all the strings for schooltool16:54
ignasor you have 5, 6 or 7 translation templates16:55
ignaseach of them duplicating some strings like "Title"16:55
ignasfor every translation domain16:55
th1aWhat's a "domain" in this case?16:55
ignaswell - every egg should have a separate translation domain16:56
ignaslike "schooltool"16:56
ignasbecause every egg should carry it's own translations in itself16:56
th1aI think it is fine to keep them separate.16:56
th1aSince down the road different countries will be using different components.16:56
ignaswe can try doing that too16:57
ignasi am a it worried about the "translate Title 5 times"16:57
ignasfor every component you are using16:57
ignassituation though16:57
th1aI guess it just depends on how extreme the repetition is.16:57
ignasbecause you translate "first name" and "last name" and still can see them in english in some places16:57
th1aAlso, won't LP at least make suggestions for things that have already been translated?16:58
ignasyes it will16:58
ignaswhich makes the situation quite a lot more bearable16:58
ignasso yeah, i will think about it and pick some compromise that works16:58
ignasboth from the packaging side16:59
ignasand from the translation side16:59
th1aI think translating components you aren't going to use as part of one big lump is more annoying than a little repetition.16:59
ignaszope people are going for single file approach17:01
ignasbecause 140 translation pages17:01
ignas+ 100 languages17:01
th1aYes... that's a bit much.17:01
ignasmakes it very difficult to manage17:01
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ignas10 packages + 20 languages will still make it cumbersome, but we can switch to something more convenient later if we'll need to17:01
th1aI think it is reasonable.17:02
th1aMoving on...17:02
th1aI added a basic page about ZODB administration to the SchoolTool book:
th1aIt would be good if our actual Zope sys admins looked at it to see if I'm on crack.17:03
th1aIt basically just says "The data is here; stop the server before you back up the file; you occasionally have to hit this "Pack" button."17:04
ignaslooks sane to me17:05
th1aHave any of us done hot backups of the ZODB?17:05
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ignasi don't know i'd have to ask my coworkers about backing up ZODB17:05
ignasmgedmin and alga are doing that in PoV17:05
mgedminZODB is append-only (except for the "transaction is complete" flag), so we just tar up the files17:06
mgedminat worst we'll get an incomplete transaction record at the end that ZODB will automatically ignore17:06
mgedminthere are proper hot-backup tools out there somewhere, though17:07
Lumierewhere is the pack button17:07
ignasso the worst case is as if you started backing up 5 minutes before the moment you actually started backing up17:07
ignasLumiere: Manage -> Application Control -> somewhere17:07
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th1aLumiere: Read my book!17:07
Lumiereth1a: well last time I had asked17:08
Lumiereit didn't exist ;)17:08
th1aThe button or the book?17:08
th1aOr both?17:08
wbradyLumiere: when r u coming in today?17:09
ignasLumiere: when was the last time?17:09
ignasLumiere: the button is there for the past 6 months i think17:09
th1aBut with crappy navigation and no book, who knew?17:10
ignasin schooltool trunk though17:10
ignasso it was not available to CanDo17:10
Lumierewbrady: noonish17:10
Lumiereignas: ok17:10
th1aLumiere: Anything in particular to report out to this group?17:12
wbradyLumiere: welsh says what's your problem? people need you in here17:13
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th1aI guess Lumiere is being paged irl.17:15
th1aOK... other things...17:15
th1aMay invoices.17:15
th1aI probably need to explain to aelkner exactly how his bonus works, right?17:15
aelkneri was going to call you about that :)17:16
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th1aI should probably write it down.17:17
Lumierewbrady: I'll call his cell17:18
aelknerth1a: ping me when you're off the phone with jelkner17:18
LumiereIf people want to change my schedule17:18
Lumierethey should tell me17:18
th1aAlso, book your flight to Vilnius this week --17:18
aelknerthat was part of what i wanted to talk to you about17:18
th1aCrap!  We missed early registration...17:19
th1aignas should have warned me about that ;-)17:19
* ignas ?17:19
th1aCan we use our inside connections to catch a break?17:19
ignasI only found out about when the conference will be last week ;)17:19
ignasask Aiste about that ;)17:19
th1aOK aelkner: leave the US Saturday the 5th, arriving the 6th, leaving the 13th.17:20
aelknerth1a: ok17:21
th1aOK, that's all I've got.17:23
th1aAny last words?17:23
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:23
aelknerno last words, but can i have a blindfold and a last cigarette17:24
th1aHave a great week!17:24
th1ajelkner: You can call me.17:24
Lumierewbrady: just got welsh17:26
wbradyLumiere: good stuff17:28
LumiereI'll be in a little earlier then usual ;)17:28
Lumieregonna grab my shower right now, should be in 11:30 ish17:28
Lumiereespecially since acc webserver and acc cando are down17:29
tdoggette_What does SchoolTool use for user login and authentication?17:35
Lumierehttp basic17:37
tdoggette_Where's it stored?17:37
tdoggette_I want to use existing Schooltool login info for elkner's doctestquiz app17:38
aelknertdoggette_: the request object has a principal attribute17:50
tdoggette_aelkner: Is there documentation?17:51
aelkneri would pdb in any view and dir(request.principal)17:51
aelkneryou should get used to using pdb17:51
aelknerit's faster than looking for docs17:51
aelknerkeen, indeed17:52
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aelknermattva01: you need to ping me when you finished installing schooltool with bzr repos17:54
aelkneri made a change to something that you won't get unless you follow an additional step17:54
mattva01yep nearly done17:54
aelknerbut don't worry about that until you already have schooltool running17:54
mattva01I am supposed to be running jelkner2007 right?17:56
aelkneryou should follow the instructions on ignas' help page17:57
aelknerand if you have problems, you should let ignas know17:57
mattva01yeah but that checks out EVERYTHING17:57
aelknerso that he can make the page more clear17:57
mattva01ok ,i'll talk to him17:57
aelknerdo it in this channel17:58
aelknerso we can all benefit17:58
aelknermattva01: ok?17:58
mattva01which branch will your changes be in17:58
ignasaelkner: which branches are you going to have? i can only see schooltool_sla branch in there17:58
aelknerlike i said, get it working first17:58
ignasjust tell us, please17:59
aelkneri haven't created the prefix yet17:59
aelknerbut why do you need to know17:59
aelknerignas: matt should be able to follow a sript17:59
aelknerand get it working18:00
ignasso at the moment we should use the actual things18:00
aelknerthen, i can deliver him the special branch i made18:00
mattva01ah ok18:00
ignasand switch when you will actually add the branches18:00
aelkneri only modified my own branch of schooltool.gradebook18:00
mattva01that makes more sense18:01
aelknerand i will publish the prefix when matt has bin/test-all and make run working18:01
ignasaelkner: could you stop saying "publish the prefix"18:01
ignasit does not make sense as a phrase18:01
ignasyou are publishing your branch18:01
ignasthe prefix part is so you would create all the directories in there18:02
ignasso if there is only directory aelkner, and you want to put a branch in aelkner/schooltoo.gradebook/my_gradebook_branch18:02
ignasthe prefix command tells bzr that it should just go and create the schooltool.gradebook directory18:02
ignasinstead of giving you an error18:02
ignasit's like "mkdir -p"18:03
aelknersorry, when i see a command of bzr push --create-prefix, i figure that i'm creating a prefix18:05
aelkneri understand your analogy to mkdir18:05
ignasaelkner: which is why i dislike writing "scripts" for you to follow18:05
ignasbecause you can make assumptions without knowing what precisely it does :/18:06
ignasso instead of learning the actual model and using the tool, it's too easy to build the wrong underlying model18:07
ignaswhich leads to "cargo cult" programming :/18:07
aelknercargo cult?18:08
ignasok, wrong definition18:09
ignasyou should look it up in wikipedia18:09
ignas is more precise18:09
aelknerignas: i don't see your argument18:14
aelknerin my opinion, systems need to be reliable18:14
aelknerprocessees repatable18:15
aelknerif you can't explain it, then it's too complex18:15
aelknerfor exmple18:15
aelknertelling someone who wants to install your prodyuct18:15
ignasi can explain it, and there are a lot of explanations in bzr website18:15
aelkneryou have to learn how to progam unix18:15
aelknerwould put off most customers18:15
ignasinstalling of schooltool is easy, it's 5-6 lines and you don't have to know neither unix nor bzr for that18:16
aelknerthere should be a limit to how many ways to do things18:16
ignasbut if you want to develop schooltool18:16
ignasyou must know bzr and must know enough linux18:16
aelkneri exagerate of course18:16
ignasit's not about how many ways to do it18:16
aelkneri was just making an analogy18:16
aelkneri'm just telling you, jason is going to need to talk to you to install18:17
aelknerand that will make myself, matt, jason18:17
aelknernext person who wants to install18:17
ignas"to install"18:17
aelknerthey will need to talk to you, too18:17
aelknerok, relying on eggs is not useful for most users18:18
ignaswhat does it mean "to install" if you are deploying a custom schooltool based on bleeding edge checkouts of branches that are not in trunk18:18
ignasthen yes - it's difficult18:18
aelknerthey will need to follow the steps for using the branches18:18
aelknerand then when a developer makes n update18:18
aelknerbind to the newly published branch18:19
aelknerit's a matter of feature delivery turnaround time18:19
ignasyou see - just making someone follow the steps on that page18:19
ignasthe very steps meant for you and eldar18:19
ignasdoes not make sense for anyone who knows what he is doing18:19
ignasbecause checking out schooltool.lyceum.journal and stapp2008spring18:19
ignasfor a jelkner2007 user18:20
ignasis not necessary18:20
aelknerit is if i want to be able to deliver immediately18:20
ignasno relation whatsoever ... these 2 components are not being used in jelkner200718:21
aelknerhow does matt get my new schooltool.gradebook changes?18:21
ignaswell - by checking out schooltool.gradebook18:21
ignashow is schooltool.lyceum.journal related to that?18:21
aelknerit's not18:21
aelkneri'm just saying18:21
aelknerif the user has a script for checking out all the branches18:22
aelknerand then a script for getting changes from a developer18:22
aelknerthat woudl help18:22
ignasyou can create one18:22
ignasspecially for jelkner2007 checkout even18:22
ignaswith only the parts that have to be there18:22
aelknerone should be sufficient for kelkner2007 and cando18:23
aelknerand any other installation for that matter18:23
ignaswith lightweight checkouts even18:23
ignaswhy do you want people getting more stuff than they need?18:23
ignasneither cando nor jelkner2007 is using stapp2008 nor schooltool.lyceum.journal18:23
mattva01i'm doing lightweight checkouts, thats fine right?18:24
ignaswhy get them? users will have to wait longer, and deal with more things that can fail...18:24
ignasmattva01: i think it will work in this case18:24
mattva01its just was taking too damn long the normal way18:24
aelknerlightweight is for users, right?18:25
aelknerthey don't need history18:25
ignasnot just history, they don't need the ability to commit local changes, nor fast bzr diff and bzr status even18:26
ignasunderstanding what is a lightweight checkout, what is a checkout and what is a branch would make it a bit easier :/18:26
aelknerignas: that's jmust it, the flaw in relying on people to understand things at the same level as you18:28
aelknermatt knows bzr18:28
aelkneryet he still asked18:28
aelknerwhat does that tell you18:28
aelknerit tells me that we need to anticpate these questions18:28
th1aWe simply have a complex use case.18:28
aelknerand write scripts18:28
th1aMultiple complex use cases.18:29
aelknerso we need to devide and conquer18:29
aelknerand write scripts for each case18:29
aelkneri know that i ask alot here18:29
th1aHere's what I want:  aelkner to spend more time with bzr documentation.18:29
ignasaelkner: then write them18:29
ignasaelkner: you should be the person who can and is writing them18:29
aelknercould be18:30
aelknerbut that adds time to my ability to deliver by August 1518:31
ignasyes it does, we all have deadlines18:31
ignasi can't write you a perfect bzr manual18:31
ignasthat is short enough for you to read...18:31
ignasbecause that takes me even more time than it takes you to learn bzr ...18:31
aelkneri'm not just thinking about me learning it, it's everyone else18:32
aelknerand that list is growing18:32
aelknerwe have people in Richmond18:32
aelknerthey probably won;'t need quick turnaround18:32
ignasnoone except you and eldar has to know how to do feature branches18:32
ignasthe rest of them can use a script18:33
ignasthat you can write18:33
aelkneryeah, maybe at the June cando sprint we can work on that18:33
th1aThere is no getting around the fact that to do your job now you have to *understand* bzr, aelkner.18:34
aelkneri'll understand bzr when all is said in done18:34
aelknerthat was not my point18:34
ignasi can spend time explaining schooltool repository layout for someone who knows bzr and buildout, but writing a schooltool specific bzr manual for someone who only knows svn is just too much... next i'll be writing Zope3 tutorials ;)18:34
aelknerlook, before we made the switch to bzr18:35
aelknerwhen i made a change to something that jeff needed immediately18:35
ignasand before we had releases18:35
aelknerhere was my instructions to him18:35
aelkner"make update"18:35
aelkner"make update"done18:35
aelknercpmpare that top now18:35
ignaswhat is preventing you from doing that now? replace all the svn stuff18:35
ignaswith bzr lightweight stuff18:36
ignasin jelkner2007-buildout18:36
ignasand it will work18:36
ignaswhen deploying18:36
aelknernow if i make a change, i need to publish a branch and tell them to bind to it18:37
ignaswell - yes, because you can't commit to trunk18:37
ignasand why you can't commit to trunk? because we have releases, and are developing features in branches...18:37
ignasit's not bzr related18:37
ignasyou would have had to do svn switches instead of bind18:38
aelkneri understand18:38
aelkneri was spoiled before18:38
aelknerperhaps i could publish my own branches of each package18:39
ignasit does not have to be any more difficult to users, they won't have to do "bind" if you will create the branches upfront18:39
ignasyes you can18:39
aelknerand then put them in the make file18:39
aelknerthat cold work18:39
ignasyes that would work18:39
ignasand you will have full control over when new stuff from trunk get's deployed for Jeff18:40
aelkneryes, that would work well18:40
ignasbecause you will have to bzr pull or bzr merge from trunk18:40
ignasinto your deployment branches18:40
aelknerso on my machine i can bzr merge each of my branches from trunk18:41
aelknerand make sure the tests pass18:41
aelknerbefore i tell matt to make update18:41
ignasbefore you commit even18:41
ignasyou can even have these branches in aelkner/jeff/schooltool aelkner/jeff/schooltool.gradebook ...18:41
ignasi mean - it's your own sandbox for these things, so it's up to you to organize it18:42
aelkneri see how i can get sla and jelkner2007 back to make updatable now18:43
aelknermattva01: how is it going?18:44
mattva01good will be done in just a sec18:44
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ignasaelkner: i am helping mattva01 to set up everything using jelkner2007-buildout, so when you will update it, he will only have to bzr up the buildout ...19:29
ignaswon't you mind if i will commit come fixes to jelkner2007-buildout ?19:30
aelknerignas: couldn't you do this in the publc channel so that i can see what you';re up to?19:30
ignasi will have to look at his current setup using ssh19:31
ignaswhich is difficult to externalizre19:31
aelknerignas: to answer your question, i haven't touched jelkner2007-buildout19:32
aelkneri don't even use sla's buildout to install to sla anymore19:33
ignasi wanted to know - if you don't mind me setting it up mostly the way it should be19:33
aelkneri use stapp2008spring19:33
aelknerand make the buildout changes there19:33
aelknerbut maybe you're right in wanting to change jelkner2007-buildout19:33
aelknerif that's what works easily, just let me know what i have to do on my machine when you have it working with matt19:34
ignaswhat do you mean - do on your machine?19:35
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aelkneri mean, if you're setting up matt, my machine should have the same setup19:38
aelknerso that i can deploy changes in the future19:38
ignasif matt is using lightweight checkouts19:39
ignasit does not mean you should use them too19:39
ignasas long as your jelkner2007 instance is working with same components that mat is using - everything will work properly19:39
aelkneri thought you said you were changing jelkner2007-buildout19:44
ignasyes i did19:44
aelknerif that's the case, i'd like to use those changes19:44
ignasok, i have to go now, tell mat that he should bzr up jelkner2007-buildout19:44
ignasand try "make run"19:44
ignasand remove "jelkner2007" directory from his "jelkner2007-buildout"19:45
ignasthe same setup should work in the usual schooltool sandbox too19:46
ignasin both "make dev" and "make build" modes19:46
ignasat least - make run works in my sandbox, because it can find all the necessary parts in my sandbox19:46
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