IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2008-04-28

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jintyignas: re zope.proxy, looks like the Architecture: tag in the debian/control file is incorrect15:12
ignasthe question is15:12
ignaswhat is the correct way of handlinh dch i?15:12
ignasi have like - ubuntu1 on gutsy and ubuntu2 on hardy15:12
jintyjust make sure that you apt-get source the latest version15:13
jintyso the next will be ubuntu315:13
ignasshould i do ubuntu3, then switch it to gutsy, release15:13
ignasthen ubuntu4 ,swtich it to hardy, release?15:13
jintyactually, hardy should probably be:15:13
jintybut now we are splitting hairs15:13
ignasi see15:14
jintyi.e. I don't think you should care at all15:14
ignasi care because i have to re release both of them, and would like to do that with less hassle if possible ;)15:14
ignaswhat do you do?15:15
jintywhat happens in a normal repository is that packages get moved between repositories15:15
jintytaking the example of debian unstable and debian etch15:15
ignasis there even a way to apt-get source gutsy version on hardy?15:15
jintyyes, just add both repositories to the sources.list of apt15:16
jintythen you always apt-get source the highest version number15:17
jintydeb-src lines only I think15:17
ignasyeah, but "downgrading" to gutsy before releasing feels a bit backward, hardy always has the newer version, so i'll probably re release a fixed hardy version15:18
ignasthough it will seem insane in the change log "switch to hardy" "fix a bug + switch to gutsy" "switch to hardy"15:18
jintyyou could choose to always work on the latest release15:31
jintyand then beck-port all your changes15:31
jintyi.e. latest ubuntu release15:31
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ignasjinty: by the way, would it be very evil if i'd add provides: python-zopeinteface to python-zope.interface?16:13
jintyI thought I'd already added it16:13
ignasyes you did16:14
ignashmm, interesting16:14
ignaswhy is it conflicting with buildbot then :/16:14
ignasThe following packages have unmet dependencies:16:14
ignas  python-twisted-core: Depends: python-zopeinterface (>= 3.2.1-3)16:14
ignasversion number?16:14
jintyI think provides doesn't work with versions16:15
jintyanother option is an empty python-zopeinterface package that depends on python-zopeinterface16:15
jintyor to change the name of our package16:16
jintysecond zopeinterface > zope.interface16:16
th1aI guess we're going to more or less wait for aelkner here...16:30
ignasi see16:30
th1aignas: Did you figure out anything about the 64 bit packages?16:30
ignasth1a: i think i have fixed 64 bit packages16:30
ignascan't test them at the moment16:30
ignasbecause i don't have a 64 bit machine i can wreak havoc on16:31
th1aWhat was the problem (in theory)?16:31
ignasArchitecture was set to All16:32
ignasinstead of being set to Any16:33
ignasall means that the binary package will work on all platforms, while any means it can be build for any platform16:33
ignasor something like that16:33
th1aDid you push the changes it up to Launchpad?  Does this change mostly affect how the packages are built?16:34
ignaspushed it16:35
ignasand new packages have been build already16:35
ignasso apt-get update + apt-get upgrade should fix everything16:35
th1aOK.  We can have our guinea pig test them then.16:36
ignasit would be nice if launchpad would provide download statistics ;)16:38
LumiereI am sure that data16:39
Lumiereis being collected16:39
th1aIf only we had an inside connection...16:39
* th1a goes to get some more coffee.16:39
th1aLumiere: So CanDo got some good news.16:42
Lumiereyes it did16:43
Lumierethe state has given us another 40k for summer development16:43
Lumiereand our meeting with them16:43
Lumiereis in a couple weeks.16:43
th1aI think it is going to be important to get CanDo's installation story in line with SchoolTool's.16:44
Lumierethat should happen in 2 weeks16:46
Lumierewhen eldar and aelkner sit down and sprint in NJ16:46
jintyLumiere: look at schooltool-common/schooltool-2008, there's space for cando in there16:46
Lumierethat is my entire goal16:46
Lumiereright now I am personally working on cron jobs and start/stop scripts (although I may steal the start/stop from schooltool)16:47
th1aThe amount of work packaging has taken has also convinced me of how much it is a strategic advantage for us.16:47
jintyLumiere: the start-stop in schooltool-common is re-usable, no need to steal16:48
Lumierejinty: that is what I mean by steal ;)16:48
Lumiereth1a: yes, I have been in agreement on that.  I just have to get to the point where I can tell someone to do it16:49
Lumiereright now eldar is going into finals and filip/andrew/chris are heading into APs16:50
Lumiereand I will not be the one to force them to work hours over getting grades16:50
ignasLumiere: just do the integration on the egg level16:52
ignasand make a nice cando egg16:52
ignasthe rest is like 30 minutes of work for me16:52
Lumiereignas: aelkner should know that by now16:53
Lumierehe's leading that piece16:53
ignasknow that? piece?16:53
Lumiereaelkner should know how to make the integration work on the egg level16:54
th1aPerhaps this is something we should discuss when aelkner arrives.16:54
Lumierewhich should be any time now16:54
th1aDepending on
wgrantignas: Generally used versioning is to upload to the latest release, and append ~hardy1, ~gutsy1, etc. for the previous releases. Not append hardy1 on top of the Gutsy version.16:56
wgrantI think there's a guide on the LP wiki somewhere.16:57
ignasi see16:58
wgrantThat also means that upgrades won't fall over and die horribly.16:58
ignasso i apt-get source some-package, then fix it, then dch -i the version, then add ~hardy - upload, change ~hardy to ~gutsy - upload16:58
wgrantWhy would you apt-get source it? Don't you have the source already?16:59
ignasnot always17:00
ignassometimes i don't have the most up to date version17:00
ignasespecially if it is a package that was auto generated, then fixed by me, then fixed by jinty17:00
wgrantDidn't you upload them in the first place?17:00
th1ajinty: So do we still technically have to wait for Zope 3.4 to be "released" before pushing things into Debian?17:02
wgrantIs it ever going to be released?17:02
th1aI think so.17:03
jintyth1a: I'm starting to get debian/ubuntu people fishing17:03
th1aActually, I think the Zope 2 release wants a new Zope 3 release, so that's an additional impetus.17:03
th1ajinty: Fishing for?17:03
jintyth1a: for something to upload to debian17:04
jintythe current packaging is painful in quite a few ways17:04
th1aYou mean, what's in Debian now?17:04
jintybut there's a lot to do on our packages before they can be uploaded17:04
ignaspython2.5 vs python2.4 stuff would be a nice thing to fix17:04
jintyat least backwards compatibility and copyright would need to be fixed17:05
jintycopyright needs to be manually done for every package17:05
th1aDamn copyright.17:05
jintywhich kinda sucks big hairy piles17:05
th1aThat's a vivid image.17:06
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th1ahi aelkner_.17:07
aelkner_herro :)17:07
aelkner_did i miss much?17:08
Lumierenot really17:08
th1aNot much relevant to you.17:08
aelkner_shall i report?17:09
th1aActually, why don't you start, aelkner_.17:09
aelkner_i'm feeling good about things17:09
aelkner_i made my final push this weekend17:09
aelkner_for the meeting today at 12:3017:09
jintyth1a: anyway any objections to giving others access to make these changes in our PPA17:09
aelkner_shall i pause my report?17:10
th1aNo objections.17:10
th1aKeep going aelkner_.17:10
aelkner_i will be able to demonstrate the whole system17:10
aelkner_minus real email17:11
aelkner_but the fake email will be demostrable as printout to the terminal window17:11
aelkner_so i can show them that when they add a message, an email is sent17:11
aelkner_and when they visit the notifyGoals.html page17:11
aelkner_the emails are sent for all goals that are due today17:11
aelkner_they can worry about getting an smtp server going here17:12
aelkner_and then i could hook up to that17:12
Lumiereand I will help aelkner_ and their sysadmin however I can17:12
aelkner_one last piece that i haven't done17:12
aelkner_thanks jason17:12
Lumierewith getting the connection made to the email server17:12
aelkner_is the tire 317:12
aelkner_tier 317:12
aelkner_that's the expulsion record (when all other interventions have failed)17:13
th1aWe need to try to do this without setting up a mail server just for SchoolTool.17:13
aelkner_they can tell me what they want today, and i'll have it ready by Thursday17:13
aelkner_like i said, when there's no mail server17:13
aelkner_the mail gets sent to the terminal window17:13
aelkner_those ar ethe two choices17:14
th1aI mean, SchoolTool just needs a regular mail account on their regular mail server, right?17:14
th1aOr the district's server?17:14
aelkner_schooltool just needs an smtp server host and port name17:14
aelkner_in SLA's case, that wold be here17:14
ignasth1a: smtp does not need authentication by default17:14
ignasth1a: as long as the sender is on the same server17:15
Lumieresmtp doesn't need authentication at all17:15
Lumiereunless it is configured by the sysadmin to need it17:15
th1aOK.  So anyhow, moving on...17:16
aelkner_i'd have to did into zope.sendmail to see how to authenticate17:16
aelkner_i'll get their reactions tosay17:17
aelkner_and make any adjustments for Thursday17:17
aelkner_that would be May 117:17
aelkner_there'll be a number of admin stuff as well17:17
aelkner_like making the same kind of make file changes i did for the gradebook17:18
aelkner_or i should say jelkner-buildout17:18
th1aJust do anything possible to avoid setting up a new mailserver.17:18
aelkner_i'll  get the sysadmin folks here to do that17:18
* th1a wonders if we could just use a gmail account.17:18
Lumiereth1a: that requires authentication and tls17:18
aelkner_that's all i got17:19
th1aSo I'll be in Philly a week from today.17:20
aelkner_i saced your email17:20
aelkner_so i'll be expecting you17:20
th1ammm... Butterscotch Krimpets.17:20
th1aDid you do anything last week, ignas?17:21
ignasreleased schooltool17:21
th1aI'm very happy with how it came out.17:22
th1aGearing up for an ongoing documentation effort now.17:22
th1aWhat's next?17:22
th1afor ignas, that is.17:23
ignasfixing some new bugs17:23
ignaslike the error page one17:23
ignasadding a release branch17:23
ignasi missed that while i was integrating vanguardistas.builder with our svn repository17:23
ignasfixing nightlies to build properly for schooltool and schooltoo.gradebook17:24
ignasintegrate lyceum with schooltool-2008 properly17:24
ignasadd a person management page17:24
ignasthat is different from person home page17:24
th1aWe do need a person home page.17:25
ignasdivide menu items to show up on one of them depending on where it makes sense17:25
th1aBetter one.17:25
ignasyep, and we still need something different for the case when someone clicks on a person17:25
ignasso i am thinking of making them 2 pages17:25
ignasinstead of 1 page17:25
ignaswith action buttons showing up in places they belong to17:26
th1aYes, it is different if you're looking at your own page or someone else's.17:26
th1aOr at least that's how we're playing it now.17:26
ignaspreparing for svn to bzr switch17:27
ignasplanning the next 6 months17:27
ignasthat's kind of everything that is on my mind at the moment17:28
th1aDo we agree that the big hurdle is terms & time?17:28
th1aJust making sure ;-)17:29
aelkner_and we're going to mgigrate to z3c.form, right?17:29
ignasaelkner_: slowly, yes17:29
ignasaelkner_: but it's a side task17:29
aelkner_i agre that it's nto a priority17:29
aelkner_i disagree with it being a slow task17:30
Lumiereslow or side?17:30
aelkner_i believe it should be done all at once17:30
aelkner_to avoid wasted overhear of task-switching17:30
th1aaelkner is dyslexic this morning.17:30
aelkner_damn my typing is bad today17:30
aelkner_we don't have to decide now when to do it17:31
ignaswe'll see, z3c.form is just a part of a bigger push17:31
aelkner_but it should be a focused effort17:31
ignastowards pagelets and layouts17:31
aelkner_is it too early to discuss europython goals17:31
aelkner_for sprinting that is17:31
ignasdon't know, haven't thought about it yet17:32
aelkner_is it too early to order plane tickets :)17:32
th1aNo.  We should do that.17:32
th1aIt is fairly likely that if we're making a push to batch-update something in SchoolTool at EP we'll be updating everything to fit with the new terms and time structure.17:33
th1aIf we've got time to think about z3c.forms, I'll be happy.17:33
ignasth1a: i am not sure how far i will be along the way on europython17:34
th1aignas: True.17:34
ignaswhich is why i am not making any specific suggestions for europython17:34
th1aYes.  I agree it is too early to say.17:35
th1aOne thing we'll be discussing over the next year is what kind of changes are "allowed" between 1.0 beta and 1.0 final.17:35
th1aI'm not sure if changing form engines is allowed.17:35
ignasth1a: users won't see anything17:35
th1aI'd say "yes" though.17:36
ignasth1a: ok, they will see small improvements, like little red markers near required fields for example17:36
ignasth1a: look at the person form, are you aware it is a z3c.form not a formlib form since sprint ;)17:37
th1aBefore we rap up, do we want to return to the discussion about CanDo eggs?17:38
th1awrap up.17:38
aelkner_anout cando17:38
aelkner_as eldar and i are sprinting soon17:38
aelkner_our goal will be to get rid of the current cando paradigm17:39
aelkner_of having it use a different skin17:39
aelkner_and instead provide a tab called 'Competencies'17:39
aelkner_in this way, it will be identical in conept17:39
aelkner_to schooltool.gradebook17:40
aelkner_or schooltool.intervention17:40
aelkner_shouldn't we make sure that whatever way we package it17:40
aelkner_is the same way we package those other two17:40
ignasi am not really sure about that at the moment17:41
aelkner_could we also call it schooltool.competencies?17:41
aelkner_to keep things consistent17:41
ignasare you sure cando users will not want any more differences from schooltool17:41
ignasi mean - refactoring cando into schooltool.competencies and cando.app17:41
aelkner_jelkner has commited to it17:41
ignassounds like something that is a little bit more manageable17:41
aelkner_schooltool.competencies should be just like the other two i mentioned17:42
Lumiereaelkner_: I still think that cando should be a separate app on installation17:42
aelkner_i don't think so17:42
Lumiereit should include schooltool core17:42
ignasyes, the difference is that there should probably be a package that sets up the right configuration17:42
aelkner_i think jelkner has the right idea on this one17:42
Lumierebut right now installing cando would break a schooltool instance17:42
ignasans maybe sometimes adds or changes something17:42
aelkner_well, all installations have that same issue17:43
aelkner_like jelkner-buildout17:43
ignasjust in case You and I disagree on what is the better way ;)17:43
aelkner_or sla-buildout17:43
aelkner_we should solve these things in the SAME way17:43
aelkner_not two or three different ways17:43
aelkner_less is more17:43
aelkner_igas: you'll get me to agree to your way :)17:44
aelkner_sooner or later17:44
aelkner_i'll only to wanbt to get you to agree17:44
aelkner_to having it ONE way17:44
ignasthere are these small things, like having a "race" dropdown in an add Person form for example17:44
ignasand there always will be, and you can't solve them one way17:44
aelkner_person is a whole other discussion17:45
ignassome people need it one way, some need it another way17:45
aelkner_i have thoughts on that that i've held back17:45
ignassome people need competencies, some don17:45
aelkner_some poeple need interventions, some not17:45
ignassome people want lyceum.journal to be integrated more closely into their schooltool instance, some don't17:45
aelkner_some poeple need a gradebook, some not17:45
ignasand have some space for small customizations makes it easier to manage17:45
aelkner_we have to consider all of these possibilities17:45
ignasbecause these configurations have "names"17:46
ignasif you say schooltool.sla - i know what you are talking about, and i could write an evolution script that adds schooltool.lyceum.journal to that configuration17:46
ignaswriting a universal evolution engine that adds/removes any of the gradebook/intervaentions/competencies17:46
ignasto any of  the instances is something we just can't do at the moment17:47
aelkner_maybe i'll be able to do that17:47
ignasnot with current architecture of the application17:47
aelkner_we can discuss that at EP17:47
ignasthere is no way to *uninstall* things17:47
ignasin ZODB17:47
ignasthere is no way to discover plugins in schooltool17:47
aelkner_we might be able to come up with an uninstall engine17:48
ignasat the moment17:48
th1aI think for this fall, it is ok if the way you install CanDo is "apt-get install cando" as a separate server and we punt on the pluggability issues for various components.17:48
ignaswhich is what i am suggesting17:48
ignasbecause it works17:48
ignasand it works now17:48
th1aI mean, we have a longer range pluggability vision, but it is probably post 1.0.17:48
ignasnot like I haven't been thinking about plugin architectures for the last 18 months17:48
th1aSo what does that mean for what aelkner and eldar need to do?17:50
aelkner_regardless of packaging17:51
ignaswell - i'd think they should create schooltool.competencies module that adds the competency part, and move the rest to cando.app17:51
ignasto keep it working mostly the same17:51
ignasand make both of these proper eggs17:52
ignasactually the first step would be17:52
th1aWhat is
aelkner_i don't see a need for cando.app17:52
aelkner_schooltool.competencies will cover it17:52
th1aYes, getting rid of is the idea, I think.17:52
ignasth1a: emm17:52
aelkner_we just need a cando-buildout17:52
aelkner_there can be a cando package17:53
aelkner_like there is an sla package17:53
aelkner_and ajelkner2007 package17:53
aelkner_those packages have about 100 lines of code17:54
aelkner_and config17:54
aelkner_nothing more17:54
aelkner_the guts of cando will be in schooltool.icomp...17:54
aelkner_the purpose of sla or jelkner200717:54
aelkner_was to include the schooltoll padckages of interest17:55
aelkner_and to override index.html view of app17:55
aelkner_to redirect to the Manage tab for managers17:55
aelkner_and the Gradebook tab for all others17:55
aelkner_maybe cando redirects to the17:55
aelkner_Competencies tab17:55
aelkner_but that's it17:55
ignasth1a: you see the small problem is17:56
ignasmake-schooltool-instance script17:56
ignasonly understands schooltoo.stapp200717:56
ignasand it can't suddenly realize that you need <include package="schooltoo.competencies" />17:56
ignasin your site.zcml17:56
ignasth1a: what schooltool-2008 is17:56
ignasit's a meta package that depends on schooltool.stapp2008spring, and relies that on the egg level17:56
ignasthere will be an entry point17:57
ignasthat gives the right configuration of the application17:57
ignasaelkner_: yes, that's what i am suggesting17:57
ignasaelkner_: which is what i want to be17:57
th1aOh, so when you say "" you don't mean "a big bucket of CanDo-specific code."17:57
aelkner_can we call it just cando?17:57
aelkner_like sla and jelkner2007?17:57
ignasyou probably can, and sla is schooltool.sla underneath it seems17:58
aelkner_yes th1a, tha's what ignas means17:58
ignasi am talking about python level namespaces17:58
ignashaving configuration in cando.app17:58
aelkner_sla IS schooltool.sla17:58
aelkner_and jelkner2007 is schooltool.jelkner200717:58
ignasso you can do schooltool.cando if you want to17:59
ignasor cando.app17:59
ignasto leave cando viable as a namespace package17:59
aelkner_i prefer schooltool.cando17:59
aelkner_less is more17:59
LumiereI agree with aelkner_17:59
ignasok, hope you can manage the evolution17:59
ignasscooltool.cando makes sense17:59
ignasbut still18:00
aelkner_that will be part of the project18:00
Lumierealthough at some point I would like to see schooltool.instances.* or something18:00
aelkner_Lumiere: ?18:00
Lumiereso that the namespace buildouts all live in a different place from schooltool packages18:00
Lumiereaelkner_: schooltool.gradebook living next to schooltool.sla18:00
Lumiereis confusing18:00
ignasLumiere: i think you are misusing the term buildout18:00
ignasi'd start from making cando package work the way it is, and then start moving stuff into schooltool.competencies18:01
Lumiereignas: I am using it to refer to things that would be buildouts18:01
ignasand then when there is nothing left to move, work on renaming cando to schooltool.cando18:01
aelkner_ignas: i agree18:01
ignasLumiere: everything is a buildout, every egg has a buildout for itself18:01
aelkner_eldar and i will get cando to have Competencies tab18:01
aelkner_before we start changing package name18:01
aelkner_as there are evolution issues at that point18:02
ignasLumiere: just like with zope18:02
ignasaelkner_: and a lot of them i am afraid18:02
aelkner_well, that's what we have eldar for18:02
ignaslook at the last schooltool evolution script to see how to "reset" the database18:02
aelkner_i believe he will deal with that after our sprint18:02
ignasto only jave new style references18:02
aelkner_ignas: we have to learn how to do these things18:02
aelkner_it has to be possible18:03
aelkner_and even reasonablly easy to do18:03
aelkner_or zope sucks18:03
ignasaelkner_: i would not be that sure18:03
aelkner_and i'm not ready to say that18:03
ignasemm, not zope sucks18:03
aelkner_i can write a scrpt to patch an SQL database in one day18:03
Lumiereignas: I was trying to make a distinction between the configuration packages and the code packages I guess18:03
aelkner_if it takes there with zope, ok18:04
ignasthere is no system in the world that allows easy evolution of databases during long spans of time18:04
aelkner_if not i start bombimg18:04
ignasone off sql scripts18:04
ignasare as good as one off zodb scripts18:04
ignasthey only work on 1 deployed instance18:04
ignasand ZODB does make it extra difficult18:04
aelkner_we only have one deployed instance18:04
ignasvery good18:04
ignasthat will make it possible18:04
ignasbut still difficult18:05
aelkner_we will have gthis solved by summer's end18:05
aelkner_and then we may start to have more than one deployed instance18:05
aelkner_but that's down the road18:05
ignassounds feasible18:05
aelkner_but i understand your concern18:06
aelkner_the theoretical part18:06
aelkner_of having various deployments in various stages of evolution18:06
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aelkner_th1a: why do computers suck?19:57
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Lumiereaelkner: do we have a method for start/stop on cando instances22:40
LumiereI cannot find a clean one for the life of me22:40
aelkneryou write a python script that accepts start, stop, and restart as command line args22:41
aelknerthat way you can install it into init.d22:41
aelknerto stop cando22:41
aelkneryou do a ps-aef | grep start-cando22:41
aelknerextract the pid22:42
aelknerand kill it22:42
aelkneri have an example that does this22:42
aelkneri have to look for it22:42
aelknerdo you remember your password on
aelknerLumiere: ?22:47
aelknerone sec22:49
LumiereI can't do the grep start-cando22:49
Lumierethe machine runs multiple cando instances22:49
Lumiereonly one of them needs a start/stop22:49
Lumiereand cando doesn't use paste yet or I'd use the paste init.d from schooltool-common22:50
aelknercan't you find a way to distinguish the one that needs starting and stoping from the output of ps -aef?22:51
aelkneri have an idea22:52
aelkneryou write a script that calls start-cando22:52
aelkneryou call it something else22:52
aelknerand you can then find that in ps -aef22:52
aelknerthere's always a way22:52
aelknerso look:22:52
aelknergo to your account on my machine and look at rubycas22:53
LumiereI can rename it yes22:53
aelkneryou can copy that script and change the sopt routine22:53
aelknerto grep for your script name22:54
aelkneryou should be able to install that at init.d22:54
aelknerthere's a delay of three seconds after starting that you might want to change22:55
aelknermaybe make it ten seconds22:55
Lumiereyea, this will do22:55
Lumierebut it is definately hackish22:55
aelknerah, but it works22:55
Lumierelong run I want to do the double fork method somehow22:55
aelkneryou could do that22:56
aelkneri was able to put that together in one hour22:56
aelknerand that's all i wanted to spend on it22:56
LumiereI'll worry about the other method later22:56
aelknerbut if you have a better way, i could benefit as well22:56
Lumierebecause that other method should be how we handle it22:56
Lumierefor everyone22:56
Lumiereit would involve keeping pid files in var23:00
Lumierefor each instance ;)23:00
Lumierebut this will do23:00
Lumiereaelkner: take a look at cando.initd23:15
Lumierein my homedir23:15
aelknerso you changed start and stop23:15
aelknerto use your script23:15
Lumiereto use variables23:15
aelkneri see23:16
Lumiereanyways I'll finish the cron scripts tonight23:17
Lumiereand set em up wednesday23:17
Lumierewhile welsh is out23:17
LumiereI want to test em a few times wednesday23:17
Lumierebefore I turn em on23:18
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