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| Lumiere | 'morning all | 16:27 |
|---|---|---|
| ignas | hi | 16:29 |
| th1a | Hi ignas, Lumiere, aelkner. | 16:29 |
| aelkner | hello | 16:30 |
| th1a | I propose we just jump into sprint plans, unless someone else has pressing or exciting news. | 16:30 |
| ignas | nope, no exciting news really | 16:31 |
| aelkner | I had good news on the SLA front | 16:31 |
| th1a | Go ahead aelkner. | 16:31 |
| aelkner | Well, we now have the demographics done (save for somem changes as I develop csap) | 16:32 |
| aelkner | Last week I get the sections imported into SLA's schooltool | 16:32 |
| th1a | Excellent. | 16:32 |
| aelkner | Narrative Rerpot Cards as done | 16:32 |
| aelkner | So, basically, all that's left is CSAP and related changes | 16:33 |
| th1a | Like the actual reports for the report cards are done? | 16:33 |
| aelkner | No | 16:33 |
| th1a | (done = programmed) | 16:33 |
| aelkner | Just the ability to enter them | 16:33 |
| aelkner | the reports will come as part of the csap work | 16:33 |
| th1a | OK. Yes, we have a tendency to think of these things as being "done" when we can get the data in but not out ;-) | 16:34 |
| aelkner | i'm sitting down with Karina each day I'm there | 16:34 |
| aelkner | yeah, good poiint | 16:34 |
| Lumiere | he learned that from his brother :) | 16:34 |
| aelkner | anyway, i'd say that i'm on schedule if not a little ahead | 16:34 |
| th1a | Excellent. | 16:34 |
| aelkner | so that's all i have to report | 16:34 |
| th1a | OK... question leading up to sprint discussion... | 16:35 |
| th1a | aelkner: Are you looking at starting UI work at the sprint that *you* would finish later? | 16:35 |
| aelkner | I'd volunteer for that, yes | 16:36 |
| aelkner | Maybe an intern could help me? | 16:36 |
| th1a | Well, it isn't so much a matter of volunteering for it as much as fitting it into your schedule. | 16:36 |
| aelkner | fair enough | 16:36 |
| aelkner | but it would be worth it | 16:37 |
| th1a | Because we know ignas doesn't plan on continuing to work on it after the sprint. | 16:37 |
| aelkner | He doesn't need to if he doesn't have the time | 16:38 |
| ignas | it's just that I think there are parts of the system that are more critically broken | 16:38 |
| ignas | it's all about priorities | 16:38 |
| ignas | the UI is not good, but it does the function of allowing people do things | 16:38 |
| aelkner | Remember that some security problems will be shaken out by good UI design | 16:38 |
| ignas | as in - it's possible to do stuff | 16:39 |
| ignas | while we have some things that you still can't do | 16:39 |
| ignas | and redesigning UI will not move us along that front | 16:39 |
| th1a | OK, so first off, if there are more critical things that need to be done that we can do at the sprint, then we should talk about them. | 16:39 |
| ignas | well - Lyceum journal is not 100% finished | 16:39 |
| ignas | it works, but attendance views for teachers and group leaders are not available to people that should see them | 16:40 |
| th1a | OK, but can other people at the sprint help with that? | 16:40 |
| aelkner | I could do my csap work there | 16:40 |
| ignas | yes, i think they could help with that | 16:40 |
| ignas | i mean - would they be able to update schooltool.attendance to the new UI? | 16:41 |
| ignas | if so - why should they have more problems fixing issues in other parts of the system? | 16:41 |
| th1a | We probably need to clarify how extensive "new UI" needs to be. | 16:42 |
| Lumiere | the first step imo is to get something to wrap the current views | 16:42 |
| aelkner | I'd like the process of designing the new UI to be an open one | 16:42 |
| ignas | well - if you add a "manage" tab for adding groups and persons, where do you put the person and group list? | 16:43 |
| ignas | and if the person and group list is not in the "manage" part - how do you connect the two? | 16:43 |
| aelkner | Isn't that stuff that we can whiteboard at the sprint? | 16:43 |
| ignas | yes | 16:43 |
| ignas | my point is - it's not that simple to just "nuke the navigation and breadcrumbs" | 16:43 |
| ignas | and add some tabs that do the stuff | 16:44 |
| aelkner | i agree that it's not simple | 16:44 |
| aelkner | and i wouldn't suggest putting a band-aid on the current UI in that way | 16:44 |
| ignas | especially if you take in mind the existance of such archaic modules like schooltool.attendance or even CanDo | 16:44 |
| aelkner | I think an entire reassessment of the user experience is in order | 16:45 |
| aelkner | taking into account what we already have | 16:45 |
| Lumiere | the hard part about this is making sure that everything we do can be done in every module | 16:45 |
| * ignas would rather go with incremental improvements, but - it seems that everyone insists to nuke the old stuff :/ | 16:45 | |
| ignas | lyceum is not having problems with the ui | 16:45 |
| ignas | and they are just asking for small incremental improvements that make their job easier | 16:46 |
| ignas | step by step | 16:46 |
| th1a | I'm trying to figure out what the next increment is. | 16:46 |
| Lumiere | ignas: I think people don't see the steps for incremental replacements | 16:46 |
| Lumiere | if they did, they wouldn't ask for the nuke | 16:46 |
| ignas | Lumiere: people are not using Lyceum instance that i am working on ;) | 16:46 |
| Lumiere | ignas: I'm sorry we're not all graced with your instance's beauty? | 16:46 |
| ignas | and yes -it's slow, it's not the only thing i am doing | 16:46 |
| aelkner | Lumiere: are you coming to PYcon? | 16:47 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: unlikely | 16:47 |
| aelkner | oh | 16:47 |
| ignas | Lumiere: it's small things, like a menu of your current sections near the navigation and actions menu | 16:47 |
| ignas | Lumiere: removal of links that teachers do not care about | 16:47 |
| ignas | small fixes to calendar overlays | 16:47 |
| Lumiere | ignas: those would have helped immensely | 16:47 |
| ignas | well - they are in there | 16:48 |
| ignas | and i think that slowly adding them is a safer way to improve UI | 16:48 |
| aelkner | just seeing the calendar when you log in is a problem in itself | 16:48 |
| ignas | if you make the calendar useful - it's not so much of a problem | 16:48 |
| aelkner | it's not clear from looking at it what schooltool actually dopes | 16:49 |
| aelkner | the app needs to teach the user how to use it | 16:49 |
| ignas | and some of these things just have to be customizable | 16:49 |
| aelkner | that's true | 16:49 |
| ignas | because some users like it that way, some want it in a different way | 16:49 |
| aelkner | it would be nice to have a customize tab | 16:49 |
| th1a | My argument is that there is one "tear off the scab" change necessary, which is to fix our basic navigation paradigm, and now is a good time to do it. | 16:50 |
| ignas | i mean - in code | 16:50 |
| aelkner | for the user to choose startup screen | 16:50 |
| ignas | at the moment | 16:50 |
| ignas | th1a: my point is - it's not *that* broken | 16:50 |
| aelkner | i see it as more broken than ignas i guess | 16:50 |
| ignas | aelkner: in code as in - SLA has it one way, lyceum has it in the other way | 16:50 |
| ignas | aelkner: that's why I don't mind you trying to fix it | 16:51 |
| aelkner | we could have a combination between site customization | 16:51 |
| aelkner | and user customization | 16:51 |
| ignas | aelkner: otoh - I will be against any things that break lyceum, so you will have to work on it using quite a lot of Zope3 pluggability features | 16:51 |
| aelkner | if that's what it takes | 16:52 |
| ignas | aelkner: I would really like customization - but I think being capable of setting up a timetable is just a bit more important that customizing your front page ... | 16:52 |
| aelkner | i don't have any particular use customization in mind | 16:52 |
| ignas | aelkner: I understand | 16:52 |
| aelkner | but i think that with discussions about the UI in the group setting | 16:53 |
| aelkner | things will occur to us | 16:53 |
| th1a | We don't need things to occur to us. | 16:53 |
| aelkner | things that would make all parties happy | 16:53 |
| th1a | If something isn't obviously needed, we don't need to do it. | 16:53 |
| aelkner | that's what would occur to us | 16:53 |
| aelkner | that which needs doing | 16:54 |
| ignas | aelkner: my position is that - you can do whatever you want with schooltool UI as long as I can use the old one | 16:54 |
| ignas | aelkner: and if people like your UI fixes - they get added to schooltool | 16:54 |
| ignas | aelkner: just like with most of the stuff that I did to lyceum | 16:54 |
| aelkner | ignas: that's why i suggested a branch package | 16:54 |
| ignas | aelkner: cando did not see that, and were not being bothered by that | 16:54 |
| ignas | aelkner: not branch, but rather a customization, the way schools are | 16:55 |
| th1a | This is just the last chance we'll have to make any big changes in, say, the next two years. | 16:55 |
| ignas | aelkner: branches add overhead | 16:55 |
| Lumiere | aelkner: th1a will kill you if you make a branch | 16:55 |
| aelkner | i'm only suggesting one package | 16:55 |
| aelkner | that can be developed as a R&D | 16:55 |
| ignas | aelkner: as in - a spike? | 16:55 |
| aelkner | that won't hurt the packagin development | 16:55 |
| aelkner | no | 16:56 |
| aelkner | how can it hurt to have a newskin package | 16:56 |
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| aelkner | that is all new code | 16:56 |
| th1a | We're past that point. | 16:56 |
| aelkner | how's that | 16:56 |
| aelkner | ? | 16:56 |
| th1a | We can't be forking our UI now. | 16:57 |
| aelkner | i thought zope was skinnable? | 16:57 |
| aelkner | i'm not talking about forking anything | 16:57 |
| ignas | aelkner: not to the extent that we want | 16:57 |
| aelkner | one is supposed to be able to develop all the skins that one wants to | 16:57 |
| th1a | We're not going in that direction. | 16:58 |
| ignas | th1a: do I understand you correctly - you think that redesigning the UI is a top priority before this release? | 16:58 |
| aelkner | it sounded like the opposite to me | 16:59 |
| th1a | I think it is a priority for the release in October. | 16:59 |
| th1a | More importantly the release in a year from now. | 16:59 |
| ignas | th1a: why? how many users are complaining about the UI? | 16:59 |
| th1a | CanDo seems happier since they made their changes. | 17:00 |
| ignas | but cando was fully functional when they did it | 17:01 |
| aelkner | indeed | 17:01 |
| aelkner | no it wasn't | 17:01 |
| aelkner | it needed to be reskinned | 17:01 |
| aelkner | its functionality was the problem | 17:01 |
| ignas | just that I think that the newskin package in CanDo is a disaster | 17:01 |
| aelkner | users hated it | 17:01 |
| ignas | not from the UI standpoint | 17:01 |
| ignas | but from pluggability, extendability, and implementation itself | 17:02 |
| aelkner | i could see that | 17:02 |
| aelkner | we didn't have you involved | 17:02 |
| aelkner | and that was part of creating the problem you refer to | 17:02 |
| ignas | SchoolTool is quite a lot bigger than CanDo | 17:02 |
| aelkner | the bigger it is, the more it needs the right UI | 17:02 |
| th1a | If we keep the action menu, can't we move to tabbed navigation without changing the internal function of most of the pages significantly? | 17:03 |
| ignas | we can try and come up with a compromise | 17:03 |
| ignas | we probably will have to | 17:03 |
| ignas | because you think that schooltool UI has to get some major fixes | 17:04 |
| ignas | and I think that we should not try to bite more than we can swallow | 17:04 |
| ignas | especially because we have our mouth's full already :/ | 17:04 |
| th1a | I would be happy if at the end of the sprint a user can look at any screen and click on "gradebook" "attendance" or "calendar" tabs. | 17:04 |
| ignas | th1a: a small problem - in lyceum gradebook and attendance is the "same thing" most of the time | 17:05 |
| aelkner | once again, i think prototyping is more important than coding something half way | 17:05 |
| th1a | Or "journal" or "cando" ... | 17:05 |
| ignas | yes | 17:05 |
| ignas | so we sudenly not just need tabs | 17:05 |
| ignas | we need pluggable tabs | 17:05 |
| aelkner | that would be fine | 17:05 |
| ignas | so we have to change all the packages that have to plug into the new infrastructure | 17:05 |
| ignas | and change some of them to make sense in the new way of navigation | 17:06 |
| * ignas thinks that pluggability in hierarchial UI is a difficult problem :/ | 17:06 | |
| ignas | I just don't know how to solve it at the moment | 17:06 |
| th1a | OK, well, that's an issue then. | 17:07 |
| ignas | and I am not feeling safe about commiting to implement it or even come up with a good design for it in a week :/ | 17:07 |
| aelkner | we have plenty of time to solve that | 17:07 |
| aelkner | no not during the sprint | 17:07 |
| aelkner | just prototyping, please | 17:07 |
| Lumiere | a week is too much time to prototype a system | 17:08 |
| aelkner | we did cando in two days | 17:08 |
| th1a | I think I'm getting a sense of how limited the proposal needs to be here. | 17:08 |
| ignas | Lumiere: a week is enough, but prototype does not scale, only 1-2 programmers can work on it at the same time | 17:08 |
| ignas | I think we could improve the UI more if we would spend the time on small fixes | 17:09 |
| ignas | rather than a redesign | 17:09 |
| ignas | like - removing links, adding links | 17:09 |
| ignas | fixing referrers | 17:09 |
| ignas | adding new menus for teachers students | 17:09 |
| ignas | and school administrators | 17:09 |
| ignas | fixing overlays a bit more | 17:09 |
| ignas | and making the UI usable with more than 1 term | 17:09 |
| ignas | which is actually doable in 1 week | 17:10 |
| aelkner | you come from someone who has used the UI for years now | 17:10 |
| aelkner | so the way it is is easy for you | 17:10 |
| aelkner | but novices hate it | 17:10 |
| aelkner | and that's the problem | 17:10 |
| Lumiere | imo if we can improve the UI by making it so that you only see what you can do | 17:10 |
| ignas | yes, but novices can be trained | 17:10 |
| ignas | it's a SIS | 17:10 |
| Lumiere | ignas: that's a bad way to go | 17:10 |
| ignas | Lumiere: first - make it possible to do things | 17:11 |
| Lumiere | ignas: most places don't have time or budget to train people | 17:11 |
| Lumiere | to use anything | 17:11 |
| th1a | Well, but bad is better than never finished. | 17:11 |
| ignas | Lumiere: then make it easier | 17:11 |
| aelkner | the app should train the user! | 17:11 |
| ignas | Lumiere: and make it even easier | 17:11 |
| ignas | the app should *WORK* | 17:11 |
| aelkner | you don't need context sensitive help at an ATM | 17:11 |
| Lumiere | ignas: working isn't enough | 17:11 |
| aelkner | there's a reason for that | 17:11 |
| Lumiere | ignas: it does need to be intuitive enough | 17:11 |
| Lumiere | that IT people at the school | 17:12 |
| Lumiere | don't babysit people | 17:12 |
| Lumiere | through their first 20 hours of use | 17:12 |
| th1a | I think we all agree that clear and easy is good. | 17:12 |
| ignas | Lumiere: it is usable enough, that's my point | 17:12 |
| Lumiere | no offense, I don't have freaking time to do that | 17:12 |
| Lumiere | ignas: it isn't for any of the teachers at the schools I am at | 17:12 |
| ignas | Lumiere: at least for the tasks lyceum teachers are doing | 17:12 |
| aelkner | ignas: you haven't read the cando report | 17:12 |
| aelkner | from last year | 17:12 |
| aelkner | it wasn't good | 17:13 |
| ignas | i know | 17:13 |
| aelkner | and remember, most people are slow to catch on | 17:13 |
| ignas | it's not good | 17:13 |
| aelkner | that's why a teaching UI is best | 17:13 |
| aelkner | and it's possible | 17:13 |
| ignas | i am not saying teaching UI is not good | 17:13 |
| aelkner | without disrupting the current UI | 17:13 |
| ignas | I am saying that it's a compromise | 17:14 |
| th1a | OK... I'm going to come up with a simplest possible tab proposal. | 17:14 |
| ignas | th1a: will you be online tomorrow? | 17:14 |
| aelkner | th1a: couldn't we wait until we're all together to design the UI? | 17:14 |
| ignas | th1a: i want to show you some things in which schooltool UI can be quite easily improved, just to give you ideas | 17:15 |
| th1a | ignas: I will be here. | 17:15 |
| ignas | th1a: about what can be added easily | 17:15 |
| Lumiere | you three | 17:15 |
| ignas | without breaking anything | 17:15 |
| Lumiere | should sit ddown online | 17:15 |
| Lumiere | and do a little bit | 17:15 |
| Lumiere | before you get there | 17:15 |
| aelkner | we could | 17:15 |
| Lumiere | otherwise you'll never finish | 17:15 |
| th1a | aelkner: I would say that anything that is too complicated to plan beforehand is too complicated. | 17:15 |
| aelkner | and have some ideas ready | 17:15 |
| aelkner | th1a: you're missing my point | 17:16 |
| aelkner | I took a course in UI design | 17:16 |
| aelkner | and it was called "User Center Design" | 17:16 |
| aelkner | there was an iterative process | 17:16 |
| aelkner | that involved the user at the earliest stage | 17:16 |
| aelkner | a lot like XP | 17:16 |
| aelkner | prototyping | 17:17 |
| * ignas took a course in resource managed called "you have 1 programmer and enough critical tasks for 3 programmers" ;) | 17:17 | |
| aelkner | and release of prototype to users | 17:17 |
| th1a | Well, that's what I expect you to be doing at SLA, aelkner. | 17:17 |
| aelkner | but i'm on an island there | 17:17 |
| aelkner | like ignas at lyceum | 17:17 |
| aelkner | i don't know what he's doing there and visa versa | 17:17 |
| th1a | An island with your users. | 17:17 |
| aelkner | that's what i would call forking | 17:18 |
| aelkner | what i'm talking about at the sprint | 17:18 |
| aelkner | is users like jelkner | 17:18 |
| th1a | That's part of why we get there three days before the sprint proper. | 17:18 |
| aelkner | dwelsh | 17:18 |
| aelkner | Lumiere | 17:18 |
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| aelkner | th1a, aelkner, ignas | 17:18 |
| aelkner | lots of different points of view | 17:18 |
| aelkner | all in one place | 17:19 |
| aelkner | a nice opportunity | 17:19 |
| th1a | My point here is that we should show up there knowing what we want to do, and then ask them if it is right. | 17:19 |
| th1a | Not show up there saying "what do we do?" | 17:19 |
| aelkner | that cuts dwelsh out of the process | 17:19 |
| aelkner | anbd his input would be very helpful | 17:19 |
| th1a | Not if he can fucking answer an email. | 17:19 |
| aelkner | he's even trying to bring his brother to the sprint | 17:19 |
| tdoggette | I'm looking to implement logging for #gasp; what mechanism does this channel use? | 17:20 |
| aelkner | and he speciallizes in UI design | 17:20 |
| tdoggette | jelkner wants logging, he reckoned th1a would know | 17:20 |
| th1a | tdoggette: This isn't exactly a good time. | 17:20 |
| th1a | OK... | 17:20 |
| tdoggette | th1a, okay | 17:21 |
| th1a | Also, I don't know the answer tdoggette. | 17:21 |
| tdoggette | Damn. | 17:21 |
| th1a | So I can write up what I'd like to do -- making it much simpler than what I wrote last week. | 17:22 |
| th1a | Ignas seems to know what UI fixes he'd like to see. | 17:23 |
| ignas | th1a: i know what fixes I can do | 17:23 |
| ignas | th1a: without touching internals too much | 17:23 |
| ignas | th1a: and breaking any of schooltool modules | 17:23 |
| aelkner | again, i'm not suggesting touching anything | 17:24 |
| aelkner | and therefore breaking anything | 17:24 |
| ignas | aelkner: i know, I have an agenda of my own | 17:24 |
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| th1a | I'm suggesting touching things. | 17:24 |
| ignas | aelkner: i am always abusing/using sprints to further things that my users need, or that are good for schooltool in general ;) | 17:24 |
| aelkner | there's no problem there | 17:25 |
| aelkner | i just want to do the same | 17:25 |
| aelkner | and that includes making dozens of virginia users happy | 17:25 |
| aelkner | another reason to have dwelsh involved | 17:25 |
| ignas | so if I can get help in improving some of the UI that I need to improve because my users WANT some specific improvements | 17:25 |
| th1a | So can you come up with a list, aelkner? | 17:25 |
| ignas | that other users would like to see anyway ... | 17:26 |
| aelkner | i don't have a list | 17:26 |
| aelkner | i don't even have dwelsh | 17:26 |
| aelkner | except one hour or so here and there | 17:26 |
| aelkner | the sprint would be the perfect place | 17:26 |
| aelkner | to be captivated in the project | 17:26 |
| aelkner | and come out the other end with a beautiful prototypoe | 17:26 |
| Lumiere | I don't know that you need welsh | 17:26 |
| th1a | I am confident that the things that ignas wants fixed need to be fixed. | 17:27 |
| Lumiere | you just need his diagrams | 17:27 |
| th1a | And the last thing I want is a beautiful prototype. | 17:27 |
| Lumiere | so that you see his result | 17:27 |
| ignas | aelkner: otoh - i will talk with lyceum and ask them to give me as much input as they can | 17:27 |
| ignas | aelkner: so i could at least try representing them | 17:27 |
| aelkner | that would be perfect | 17:27 |
| ignas | aelkner: because well - lyceum opinion about the UI is quite different | 17:27 |
| Lumiere | http://www.careercenter.arlington.k12.va.us/cando/developers/cando_if_stud/ | 17:28 |
| Lumiere | http://www.careercenter.arlington.k12.va.us/cando/developers/cando_if_teach/ | 17:28 |
| Lumiere | that's what welsh's UI prototypes looked like | 17:28 |
| ignas | page load error | 17:28 |
| aelkner | but that left out the manager | 17:28 |
| aelkner | and that's where we need the most improvement | 17:28 |
| Lumiere | ignas: eh? | 17:29 |
| Lumiere | they both loaded for me | 17:29 |
| ignas | imho manager can continue using the crappyer UI | 17:29 |
| th1a | I agree with ignas on that one. | 17:29 |
| ignas | teachers + students are more important though | 17:29 |
| Lumiere | I agree that managers using the old UI is fine | 17:29 |
| Lumiere | it is already intuitive for administrators | 17:29 |
| Lumiere | cause they need everything in it | 17:30 |
| ignas | and i think that just limmiting teacher and student UI + adding some helpful links can make it so much better for them | 17:30 |
| ignas | but we should leave it for later ;) | 17:30 |
| aelkner | i don't see it the same way | 17:30 |
| ignas | the discussion | 17:30 |
| aelkner | that i would agree with | 17:30 |
| aelkner | starting the night we arrive at the sprint | 17:30 |
| aelkner | but not as the lead topic | 17:31 |
| ignas | aelkner: i know, but when you can only fix a limited amount of things - you fix teacher, then student and then manager if you have enough time left | 17:31 |
| ignas | rather than trying to fix all three of them at the same time and hoping you can finish it until the thermal end of the universe ;) | 17:31 |
| aelkner | you finish the prototype if you want it to be a good UI | 17:32 |
| aelkner | and worry about fixing the code later | 17:32 |
| ignas | if we didn't have a huge body of complicated code with 4 years of history - i'd agree with you | 17:32 |
| th1a | OK, I think we can wrap this up. | 17:33 |
| aelkner | I wouldn't say our navigation is complicated as ,much as it is bad | 17:33 |
| aelkner | the newbie not so bright person would look at it and not even know where to start | 17:33 |
| aelkner | having a better navaigation wouldn't change the code so much | 17:34 |
| ignas | aelkner: setting up new school is not difficult, it's impossible | 17:34 |
| *** Lumiere changes topic to "SchoolTool development | | IRC logs at http://source.schooltool.org/irclogs/ | SchoolTool Dev meetings Mon, 14:30 UTC (16:30 EET, 9:30 EST) | CanDo Dev meetings Mon, 2000 EST (Tuesday 0100 UTC, 0300 EET) | Use http://paste.lisp.org/new/schooltool for pasting | Write more unit and functional tests! Yes, you!" | 17:34 | |
| ignas | and no amount of new navigation can help | 17:34 |
| ignas | Lumiere: i still can't load the link | 17:34 |
| th1a | I think I can come up with a reasonable compromise proposal for sane navigation. | 17:34 |
| ignas | Lumiere: can you give me the IP address? | 17:34 |
| Lumiere | yea, sec | 17:35 |
| aelkner | th1a: you sound like you want to hand down the tablets from the mountaintop | 17:35 |
| aelkner | i'm looking for user centered design | 17:35 |
| ignas | aelkner: and when I say impossible - i mean it, you could not set up a timetable until i fixed some views last week :( | 17:35 |
| ignas | aelkner: it's that bad at the moment | 17:35 |
| aelkner | looking at schooltool, it's not even clear what a timetable is for | 17:37 |
| aelkner | that could change | 17:37 |
| th1a | aelkner: I just want tabs. It is very standard stuff. | 17:37 |
| aelkner | i'll give up my pleas for user centered design and forget the whole thing if that's what you thing is best | 17:38 |
| Lumiere | http://158.59.225.190/cando/developers/cando_if_teach/ | 17:38 |
| Lumiere | http://158.59.225.190/cando/developers/cando_if_stud/ | 17:39 |
| ignas | Lumiere: nope, does not work :/ | 17:39 |
| Lumiere | wtf? | 17:39 |
| ignas | ping is not comming through | 17:40 |
| Lumiere | ping will fail | 17:40 |
| Lumiere | it's blocked | 17:40 |
| ignas | telnet to port 80 can't connect | 17:40 |
| Lumiere | that's seriously wtf worthy | 17:40 |
| Lumiere | that's the main careercenter webserver | 17:40 |
| ignas | maybe they are blocking access from non US Ip's? | 17:41 |
| aelkner | i check that i was able to access the site | 17:41 |
| th1a | aelkner: I'm not against user-centered design in general, and I'm in favor of user-centered refinement of the tab system, but I don't think whether or not there should be tabs needs to be discussed. | 17:41 |
| ignas | aelkner: i am for user centered desing, I am agains user centered redesign and would rather see user centered design applied slowly and incrementally | 17:41 |
| ignas | lisppaste5: url | 17:42 |
| th1a | Well, I'm going to... | 17:42 |
| * th1a drops the bag of gravel. | 17:42 | |
| aelkner | Lumiere: ignas may have somthing there about not being from the US, maybe a patriot act thing? | 17:43 |
| Lumiere | uh | 17:43 |
| Lumiere | I don't think that's the case | 17:43 |
| aelkner | or maybe just ACC policy | 17:43 |
| Lumiere | if it is | 17:43 |
| Lumiere | not ACC for sure | 17:44 |
| Lumiere | probably just screwed up network config | 17:44 |
| Lumiere | at the county level | 17:44 |
| aelkner | could be | 17:44 |
| ignas | tracepath is getting stuck in sprintlink.net | 17:44 |
| Lumiere | they need to pull the entire infrastructure | 17:44 |
| Lumiere | and re-do it | 17:45 |
| Lumiere | right now, they don't segment the network at all | 17:45 |
| Lumiere | they use vlans for schools | 17:45 |
| Lumiere | but no routing is done at all between schools | 17:45 |
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| Mattva01_ | is the meeting over? | 18:25 |
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| ignas | yes | 18:30 |
| Mattva01_ | hmm why am I getting a locale error in the jelkner2007 branch | 18:32 |
| Mattva01_ | http://pastebin.com/m1d3f4673 | 18:33 |
| ignas | LC_ALL=C make run | 18:42 |
| Mattva01_ | ? | 18:42 |
| Mattva01_ | set the eviroment varitable to that? | 18:44 |
| Mattva01_ | *enviroment | 18:44 |
| ignas | yes | 18:45 |
| ignas | you set locale to C for make run | 18:45 |
| Mattva01_ | tried that did not work | 18:45 |
| ignas | same error? | 18:45 |
| Mattva01_ | yep | 18:45 |
| Mattva01_ | wait let me try something | 18:45 |
| Mattva01_ | oh that worked | 18:47 |
| Mattva01_ | silly sudo :) | 18:47 |
| Mattva01_ | thanks | 18:47 |
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| Lumiere | mgedmin: can you connect to the cando buildbot right now? | 20:52 |
| Lumiere | (or the cando unit coverage) | 20:52 |
| mgedmin | what's the url? | 20:53 |
| Lumiere | http://www.careercenter.arlington.k12.va.us/cando-coverage/ | 20:56 |
| Lumiere | ignas was havving issues getting to us today | 20:56 |
| Lumiere | and I had some problems getting to schooltool.pov a few minutes ago | 20:56 |
| Lumiere | (I think it's internet instability, but I was looking for a link from the other side | 20:56 |
| th1a | Lumiere: There is that Pakistan thing going on. | 21:04 |
| Lumiere | huh? | 21:05 |
| th1a | Pakistan's main ISP cut off the internet in Pakistan, or something. | 21:05 |
| Lumiere | oh fnu | 21:05 |
| th1a | fnu? | 21:05 |
| Lumiere | xp on the n | 21:06 |
| Lumiere | (fun) | 21:06 |
| mgedmin | nope, can't reach it | 21:08 |
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