IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2008-02-25

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Lumiere'morning all16:27
th1aHi ignas, Lumiere, aelkner.16:29
th1aI propose we just jump into sprint plans, unless someone else has pressing or exciting news.16:30
ignasnope, no exciting news really16:31
aelknerI had good news on the SLA front16:31
th1aGo ahead aelkner.16:31
aelknerWell, we now have the demographics done (save for somem changes as I develop csap)16:32
aelknerLast week I get the sections imported into SLA's schooltool16:32
aelknerNarrative Rerpot Cards as done16:32
aelknerSo, basically, all that's left is CSAP and related changes16:33
th1aLike the actual reports for the report cards are done?16:33
th1a(done = programmed)16:33
aelknerJust the ability to enter them16:33
aelknerthe reports will come as part of the csap work16:33
th1aOK.  Yes, we have a tendency to think of these things as being "done" when we can get the data in but not out  ;-)16:34
aelkneri'm sitting down with Karina each day I'm there16:34
aelkneryeah, good poiint16:34
Lumierehe learned that from his brother :)16:34
aelkneranyway, i'd say that i'm on schedule if not a little ahead16:34
aelknerso that's all i have to report16:34
th1aOK... question leading up to sprint discussion...16:35
th1aaelkner: Are you looking at starting UI work at the sprint that *you* would finish later?16:35
aelknerI'd volunteer for that, yes16:36
aelknerMaybe an intern could help me?16:36
th1aWell, it isn't so much a matter of volunteering for it as much as fitting it into your schedule.16:36
aelknerfair enough16:36
aelknerbut it would be worth it16:37
th1aBecause we know ignas doesn't plan on continuing to work on it after the sprint.16:37
aelknerHe doesn't need to if he doesn't have the time16:38
ignasit's just that I think there are parts of the system that are more critically broken16:38
ignasit's all about priorities16:38
ignasthe UI is not good, but it does the function of allowing people do things16:38
aelknerRemember that some security problems will be shaken out by good UI design16:38
ignasas in - it's possible to do stuff16:39
ignaswhile we have some things that you still can't do16:39
ignasand redesigning UI will not move us along that front16:39
th1aOK, so first off, if there are more critical things that need to be done that we can do at the sprint, then we should talk about them.16:39
ignaswell - Lyceum journal is not 100% finished16:39
ignasit works, but attendance views for teachers and group leaders are not available to people that should see them16:40
th1aOK, but can other people at the sprint help with that?16:40
aelknerI could do my csap work there16:40
ignasyes, i think they could help with that16:40
ignasi mean - would they be able to update schooltool.attendance to the new UI?16:41
ignasif so - why should they have more problems fixing issues in other parts of the system?16:41
th1aWe probably need to clarify how extensive "new UI" needs to be.16:42
Lumierethe first step imo is to get something to wrap the current views16:42
aelknerI'd like the process of designing the new UI to be an open one16:42
ignaswell - if you add a "manage" tab for adding groups and persons, where do you put the person and group list?16:43
ignasand if the person and group list is not in the "manage" part - how do you connect the two?16:43
aelknerIsn't that stuff that we can whiteboard at the sprint?16:43
ignasmy point is - it's not that simple to just "nuke the navigation and breadcrumbs"16:43
ignasand add some tabs that do the stuff16:44
aelkneri agree that it's not simple16:44
aelknerand i wouldn't suggest putting a band-aid on the current UI in that way16:44
ignasespecially if you take in mind the existance of such archaic modules like schooltool.attendance or even CanDo16:44
aelknerI think an entire reassessment of the user experience is in order16:45
aelknertaking into account what we already have16:45
Lumierethe hard part about this is making sure that everything we do can be done in every module16:45
* ignas would rather go with incremental improvements, but - it seems that everyone insists to nuke the old stuff :/16:45
ignaslyceum is not having problems with the ui16:45
ignasand they are just asking for small incremental improvements that make their job easier16:46
ignasstep by step16:46
th1aI'm trying to figure out what the next increment is.16:46
Lumiereignas: I think people don't see the steps for incremental replacements16:46
Lumiereif they did, they wouldn't ask for the nuke16:46
ignasLumiere: people are not using Lyceum instance that i am working on ;)16:46
Lumiereignas: I'm sorry we're not all graced with your instance's beauty?16:46
ignasand yes -it's slow, it's not the only thing i am doing16:46
aelknerLumiere: are you coming to PYcon?16:47
Lumiereaelkner: unlikely16:47
ignasLumiere: it's small things, like a menu of your current sections near the navigation and actions menu16:47
ignasLumiere: removal of links that teachers do not care about16:47
ignassmall fixes to calendar overlays16:47
Lumiereignas: those would have helped immensely16:47
ignaswell - they are in there16:48
ignasand i think that slowly adding them is a safer way to improve UI16:48
aelknerjust seeing the calendar when you log in is a problem in itself16:48
ignasif you make the calendar useful - it's not so much of a problem16:48
aelknerit's not clear from looking at it what schooltool actually dopes16:49
aelknerthe app needs to teach the user how to use it16:49
ignasand some of these things just have to be customizable16:49
aelknerthat's true16:49
ignasbecause some users like it that way, some want it in a different way16:49
aelknerit would be nice to have a customize tab16:49
th1aMy argument is that there is one "tear off the scab" change necessary, which is to fix our basic navigation paradigm, and now is a good time to do it.16:50
ignasi mean - in code16:50
aelknerfor the user to choose startup screen16:50
ignasat the moment16:50
ignasth1a: my point is - it's not *that* broken16:50
aelkneri see it as more broken than ignas i guess16:50
ignasaelkner: in code as in - SLA has it one way, lyceum has it in the other way16:50
ignasaelkner: that's why I don't mind you trying to fix it16:51
aelknerwe could have a combination between site customization16:51
aelknerand user customization16:51
ignasaelkner: otoh - I will be against any things that break lyceum, so you will have to work on it using quite a lot of Zope3 pluggability features16:51
aelknerif that's what it takes16:52
ignasaelkner: I would really like customization - but I think being capable of setting up a timetable is just a bit more important that customizing your front page ...16:52
aelkneri don't have any particular use customization in mind16:52
ignasaelkner: I understand16:52
aelknerbut i think that with discussions about the UI in the group setting16:53
aelknerthings will occur to us16:53
th1aWe don't need things to occur to us.16:53
aelknerthings that would make all parties happy16:53
th1aIf something isn't obviously needed, we don't need to do it.16:53
aelknerthat's what would occur to us16:53
aelknerthat which needs doing16:54
ignasaelkner: my position is that - you can do whatever you want with schooltool UI as long as I can use the old one16:54
ignasaelkner: and if people like your UI fixes - they get added to schooltool16:54
ignasaelkner: just like with most of the stuff that I did to lyceum16:54
aelknerignas: that's why i suggested a branch package16:54
ignasaelkner: cando did not see that, and were not being bothered by that16:54
ignasaelkner: not branch, but rather a customization, the way schools are16:55
th1aThis is just the last chance we'll have to make any big changes in, say, the next two years.16:55
ignasaelkner: branches add overhead16:55
Lumiereaelkner: th1a will kill you if you make a branch16:55
aelkneri'm only suggesting one package16:55
aelknerthat can be developed as a R&D16:55
ignasaelkner: as in - a spike?16:55
aelknerthat won't hurt the packagin development16:55
aelknerhow can it hurt to have a newskin package16:56
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aelknerthat is all new code16:56
th1aWe're past that point.16:56
aelknerhow's that16:56
th1aWe can't be forking our UI now.16:57
aelkneri thought zope was skinnable?16:57
aelkneri'm not talking about forking anything16:57
ignasaelkner: not to the extent that we want16:57
aelknerone is supposed to be able to develop all the skins that one wants to16:57
th1aWe're not going in that direction.16:58
ignasth1a: do I understand you correctly - you think that redesigning the UI is a top priority before this release?16:58
aelknerit sounded like the opposite to me16:59
th1aI think it is a priority for the release in October.16:59
th1aMore importantly the release in a year from now.16:59
ignasth1a: why? how many users are complaining about the UI?16:59
th1aCanDo seems happier since they made their changes.17:00
ignasbut cando was fully functional when they did it17:01
aelknerno it wasn't17:01
aelknerit needed to be reskinned17:01
aelknerits functionality was the problem17:01
ignasjust that I think that the newskin package in CanDo is a disaster17:01
aelknerusers hated it17:01
ignasnot from the UI standpoint17:01
ignasbut from pluggability, extendability, and implementation itself17:02
aelkneri could see that17:02
aelknerwe didn't have you involved17:02
aelknerand that was part of creating the problem you refer to17:02
ignasSchoolTool is quite a lot bigger than CanDo17:02
aelknerthe bigger it is, the more it needs the right UI17:02
th1aIf we keep the action menu, can't we move to tabbed navigation without changing the internal function of most of the pages significantly?17:03
ignaswe can try and come up with a compromise17:03
ignaswe probably will have to17:03
ignasbecause you think that schooltool UI has to get some major fixes17:04
ignasand I think that we should not try to bite more than we can swallow17:04
ignasespecially because we have our mouth's full already :/17:04
th1aI would be happy if at the end of the sprint a user can look at any screen and click on "gradebook" "attendance" or "calendar" tabs.17:04
ignasth1a: a small problem - in lyceum gradebook and attendance is the "same thing" most of the time17:05
aelkneronce again, i think prototyping is more important than coding something half way17:05
th1aOr "journal" or "cando" ...17:05
ignasso we sudenly not just need tabs17:05
ignaswe need pluggable tabs17:05
aelknerthat would be fine17:05
ignasso we have to change all the packages that have to plug into the new infrastructure17:05
ignasand change some of them to make sense in the new way of navigation17:06
* ignas thinks that pluggability in hierarchial UI is a difficult problem :/17:06
ignasI just don't know how to solve it at the moment17:06
th1aOK, well, that's an issue then.17:07
ignasand I am not feeling safe about commiting to implement it or even come up with a good design for it in a week :/17:07
aelknerwe have plenty of time to solve that17:07
aelknerno not during the sprint17:07
aelknerjust prototyping, please17:07
Lumierea week is too much time to prototype a system17:08
aelknerwe did cando in two days17:08
th1aI think I'm getting a sense of how limited the proposal needs to be here.17:08
ignasLumiere: a week is enough, but prototype does not scale, only 1-2 programmers can work on it at the same time17:08
ignasI think we could improve the UI more if we would spend the time on small fixes17:09
ignasrather than a redesign17:09
ignaslike - removing links, adding links17:09
ignasfixing referrers17:09
ignasadding new menus for teachers students17:09
ignasand school administrators17:09
ignasfixing overlays a bit more17:09
ignasand making the UI usable with more than 1 term17:09
ignaswhich is actually doable in 1 week17:10
aelkneryou come from someone who has used the UI for years now17:10
aelknerso the way it is is easy for you17:10
aelknerbut novices hate it17:10
aelknerand that's the problem17:10
Lumiereimo if we can improve the UI by making it so that you only see what you can do17:10
ignasyes, but novices can be trained17:10
ignasit's a SIS17:10
Lumiereignas: that's a bad way to go17:10
ignasLumiere: first - make it possible to do things17:11
Lumiereignas: most places don't have time or budget to train people17:11
Lumiereto use anything17:11
th1aWell, but bad is better than never finished.17:11
ignasLumiere: then make it easier17:11
aelknerthe app should train the user!17:11
ignasLumiere: and make it even easier17:11
ignasthe app should *WORK*17:11
aelkneryou don't need context sensitive help at an ATM17:11
Lumiereignas: working isn't enough17:11
aelknerthere's a reason for that17:11
Lumiereignas: it does need to be intuitive enough17:11
Lumierethat IT people at the school17:12
Lumieredon't babysit people17:12
Lumierethrough their first 20 hours of use17:12
th1aI think we all agree that clear and easy is good.17:12
ignasLumiere: it is usable enough, that's my point17:12
Lumiereno offense, I don't have freaking time to do that17:12
Lumiereignas: it isn't for any of the teachers at the schools I am at17:12
ignasLumiere: at least for the tasks lyceum teachers are doing17:12
aelknerignas: you haven't read the cando report17:12
aelknerfrom last year17:12
aelknerit wasn't good17:13
ignasi know17:13
aelknerand remember, most people are slow to catch on17:13
ignasit's not good17:13
aelknerthat's why a teaching UI is best17:13
aelknerand it's possible17:13
ignasi am not saying teaching UI is not good17:13
aelknerwithout disrupting the current UI17:13
ignasI am saying that it's a compromise17:14
th1aOK... I'm going to come up with a simplest possible tab proposal.17:14
ignasth1a: will you be online tomorrow?17:14
aelknerth1a: couldn't we wait until we're all together to design the UI?17:14
ignasth1a: i want to show you some things in which schooltool UI can be quite easily improved, just to give you ideas17:15
th1aignas: I will be here.17:15
ignasth1a: about what can be added easily17:15
Lumiereyou three17:15
ignaswithout breaking anything17:15
Lumiereshould sit ddown online17:15
Lumiereand do a little bit17:15
Lumierebefore you get there17:15
aelknerwe could17:15
Lumiereotherwise you'll never finish17:15
th1aaelkner: I would say that anything that is too complicated to plan beforehand is too complicated.17:15
aelknerand have some ideas ready17:15
aelknerth1a: you're missing my point17:16
aelknerI took a course in UI design17:16
aelknerand it was called "User Center Design"17:16
aelknerthere was an iterative process17:16
aelknerthat involved the user at the earliest stage17:16
aelknera lot like XP17:16
* ignas took a course in resource managed called "you have 1 programmer and enough critical tasks for 3 programmers" ;)17:17
aelknerand release of prototype to users17:17
th1aWell, that's what I expect you to be doing at SLA, aelkner.17:17
aelknerbut i'm on an island there17:17
aelknerlike ignas at lyceum17:17
aelkneri don't know what he's doing there and visa versa17:17
th1aAn island with your users.17:17
aelknerthat's what i would call forking17:18
aelknerwhat i'm talking about at the sprint17:18
aelkneris users like jelkner17:18
th1aThat's part of why we get there three days before the sprint proper.17:18
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aelknerth1a, aelkner, ignas17:18
aelknerlots of different points of view17:18
aelknerall in one place17:19
aelknera nice opportunity17:19
th1aMy point here is that we should show up there knowing what we want to do, and then ask them if it is right.17:19
th1aNot show up there saying "what do we do?"17:19
aelknerthat cuts dwelsh out of the process17:19
aelkneranbd his input would be very helpful17:19
th1aNot if he can fucking answer an email.17:19
aelknerhe's even trying to bring his brother to the sprint17:19
tdoggetteI'm looking to implement logging for #gasp; what mechanism does this channel use?17:20
aelknerand he speciallizes in UI design17:20
tdoggettejelkner wants logging, he reckoned th1a would know17:20
th1atdoggette: This isn't exactly a good time.17:20
tdoggetteth1a, okay17:21
th1aAlso, I don't know the answer tdoggette.17:21
th1aSo I can write up what I'd like to do -- making it much simpler than what I wrote last week.17:22
th1aIgnas seems to know what UI fixes he'd like to see.17:23
ignasth1a: i know what fixes I can do17:23
ignasth1a: without touching internals too much17:23
ignasth1a: and breaking any of schooltool modules17:23
aelkneragain, i'm not suggesting touching anything17:24
aelknerand therefore breaking anything17:24
ignasaelkner: i know, I have an agenda of my own17:24
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th1aI'm suggesting touching things.17:24
ignasaelkner: i am always abusing/using sprints to further things that my users need, or that are good for schooltool in general ;)17:24
aelknerthere's no problem there17:25
aelkneri just want to do the same17:25
aelknerand that includes making dozens of virginia users happy17:25
aelkneranother reason to have dwelsh involved17:25
ignasso if I can get help in improving some of the UI that I need to improve because my users WANT some specific improvements17:25
th1aSo can you come up with a list, aelkner?17:25
ignasthat other users would like to see anyway ...17:26
aelkneri don't have a list17:26
aelkneri don't even have dwelsh17:26
aelknerexcept one hour or so here and there17:26
aelknerthe sprint would be the perfect place17:26
aelknerto be captivated in the project17:26
aelknerand come out the other end with a beautiful prototypoe17:26
LumiereI don't know that you need welsh17:26
th1aI am confident that the things that ignas wants fixed need to be fixed.17:27
Lumiereyou just need his diagrams17:27
th1aAnd the last thing I want is a beautiful prototype.17:27
Lumiereso that you see his result17:27
ignasaelkner: otoh - i will talk with lyceum and ask them to give me as much input as they can17:27
ignasaelkner: so i could at least try representing them17:27
aelknerthat would be perfect17:27
ignasaelkner: because well - lyceum opinion about the UI is quite different17:27
Lumierethat's what welsh's UI prototypes looked like17:28
ignaspage load error17:28
aelknerbut that left out the manager17:28
aelknerand that's where we need the most improvement17:28
Lumiereignas: eh?17:29
Lumierethey both loaded for me17:29
ignasimho manager can continue using the crappyer UI17:29
th1aI agree with ignas on that one.17:29
ignasteachers + students are more important though17:29
LumiereI agree that managers using the old UI is fine17:29
Lumiereit is already intuitive for administrators17:29
Lumierecause they need everything in it17:30
ignasand i think that just limmiting teacher and student UI + adding some helpful links can make it so much better for them17:30
ignasbut we should leave it for later ;)17:30
aelkneri don't see it the same way17:30
ignasthe discussion17:30
aelknerthat i would agree with17:30
aelknerstarting the night we arrive at the sprint17:30
aelknerbut not as the lead topic17:31
ignasaelkner: i know, but when you can only fix a limited amount of things - you fix teacher, then student and then manager if you have enough time left17:31
ignasrather than trying to fix all three of them at the same time and hoping you can finish it until the thermal end of the universe ;)17:31
aelkneryou finish the prototype if you want it to be a good UI17:32
aelknerand worry about fixing the code later17:32
ignasif we didn't have a huge body of complicated code with 4 years of history - i'd agree with you17:32
th1aOK, I think we can wrap this up.17:33
aelknerI wouldn't say our navigation is complicated as ,much as it is bad17:33
aelknerthe newbie not so bright person would look at it and not even know where to start17:33
aelknerhaving a better navaigation wouldn't change the code so much17:34
ignasaelkner: setting up new school is not difficult, it's impossible17:34
*** Lumiere changes topic to "SchoolTool development | | IRC logs at | SchoolTool Dev meetings Mon, 14:30 UTC (16:30 EET, 9:30 EST) | CanDo Dev meetings Mon, 2000 EST (Tuesday 0100 UTC, 0300 EET) | Use for pasting | Write more unit and functional tests! Yes, you!"17:34
ignasand no amount of new navigation can help17:34
ignasLumiere: i still can't load the link17:34
th1aI think I can come up with a reasonable compromise proposal for sane navigation.17:34
ignasLumiere: can you give me the IP address?17:34
Lumiereyea, sec17:35
aelknerth1a: you sound like you want to hand down the tablets from the mountaintop17:35
aelkneri'm looking for user centered design17:35
ignasaelkner: and when I say impossible - i mean it, you could not set up a timetable until i fixed some views last week :(17:35
ignasaelkner: it's that bad at the moment17:35
aelknerlooking at schooltool, it's not even clear what a timetable is for17:37
aelknerthat could change17:37
th1aaelkner: I just want tabs.  It is very standard stuff.17:37
aelkneri'll give up my pleas for user centered design and forget the whole thing if that's what you thing is best17:38
ignasLumiere: nope, does not work :/17:39
ignasping is not comming through17:40
Lumiereping will fail17:40
Lumiereit's blocked17:40
ignastelnet to port 80 can't connect17:40
Lumierethat's seriously wtf worthy17:40
Lumierethat's the main careercenter webserver17:40
ignasmaybe they are blocking access from non US Ip's?17:41
aelkneri check that i was able to access the site17:41
th1aaelkner: I'm not against user-centered design in general, and I'm in favor of user-centered refinement of the tab system, but I don't think whether or not there should be tabs needs to be discussed.17:41
ignasaelkner: i am for user centered desing, I am agains user centered redesign and would rather see user centered design applied slowly and incrementally17:41
ignaslisppaste5: url17:42
th1aWell, I'm going to...17:42
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:42
aelknerLumiere: ignas may have somthing there about not being from the US, maybe a patriot act thing?17:43
LumiereI don't think that's the case17:43
aelkneror maybe just ACC policy17:43
Lumiereif it is17:43
Lumierenot ACC for sure17:44
Lumiereprobably just screwed up network config17:44
Lumiereat the county level17:44
aelknercould be17:44
ignastracepath is getting stuck in sprintlink.net17:44
Lumierethey need to pull the entire infrastructure17:44
Lumiereand re-do it17:45
Lumiereright now, they don't segment the network at all17:45
Lumierethey use vlans for schools17:45
Lumierebut no routing is done at all between schools17:45
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Mattva01_is the meeting over?18:25
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Mattva01_hmm why am I getting a locale error in the jelkner2007 branch18:32
ignasLC_ALL=C make run18:42
Mattva01_set the eviroment varitable to that?18:44
ignasyou set locale to C for make run18:45
Mattva01_tried that did not work18:45
ignassame error?18:45
Mattva01_wait let me try something18:45
Mattva01_oh that worked18:47
Mattva01_silly sudo :)18:47
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Lumieremgedmin: can you connect to the cando buildbot right now?20:52
Lumiere(or the cando unit coverage)20:52
mgedminwhat's the url?20:53
Lumiereignas was havving issues getting to us today20:56
Lumiereand I had some problems getting to schooltool.pov a few minutes ago20:56
Lumiere(I think it's internet instability, but I was looking for a link from the other side20:56
th1aLumiere: There is that Pakistan thing going on.21:04
th1aPakistan's main ISP cut off the internet in Pakistan, or something.21:05
Lumiereoh fnu21:05
Lumierexp on the n21:06
mgedminnope, can't reach it21:08
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