IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2007-12-04

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balortrunk is broken. Which branch is considered stable?12:31
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ignaskkubasik: hi17:14
kkubasikignas, hey :)17:15
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* ignas has started *thinking* about the timeline problems18:48
ignasit is a *fun* problem18:48
ignasespecially the interaction with permissions part18:49
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ignasth1a_, jinty, Lumiere: any of you online?18:49
ignasi need some reflection upon some ideas18:49
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ignasjinty_: problems with internet?19:27
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ignasaelkner: ayt?19:31
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ignasjelkner: maybe you have some time19:33
jelknerignas: alan is eating19:34
ignasi see19:34
jelknerwe will be there in a few moments19:34
jelknerbut dwelsh is here19:34
jelknerwe have our monthly cando meeting19:34
ignasi am pondering some sweeping changes for the way some things in schooltool work19:34
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ignasand wanted to consult about some ideas19:34
ignasrelating to security of the application19:34
ignasto the security model19:35
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ignasas you probably know - we are going to do some changes to schooltool to handle time better19:36
aelknerok, i'm putting my food down and will eat during our meeting here in 10 minutes19:36
ignaswhich means that if you add a member to the section or remove someone from the section19:36
ignasthe system will give you options for removal of the member "permanently"19:37
ignasas in "for all instances of time in the lifetime of the section"19:37
ignasand "from tomorrow"19:37
ignasor from some date19:37
ignasso if you had john in your section for 3 months19:37
ignasand then decided that he has to go to some other section19:37
ignassystem will know that john was it's member for that time19:38
ignaswhich will be visible in lyceum journal for example19:38
ignasor attendance19:38
ignasnow what it means for the security model19:38
ignasas sections will have lifetime19:38
ignaslifetime being "time during which the section is active"19:39
ignasa term most probably19:39
ignasand instructors will be tracked during that time19:39
ignasso john was teaching the section for 3 months, and now peter is teaching it19:39
ignasthis adds some more options to the permission model of ours19:39
ignasbecause if we had permissions like "instructor of a section can see it's members"19:40
ignasnow we will need to handle cases like:19:40
ignas"section is closed now, can the last instructor still see it"19:40
ignas"section is still open, but you only teached it for a month, can you still see it"19:41
ignasor "you were in the administrator group last year, can you still manage objects?"19:41
ignas(no is my guess)19:41
ignasaelkner, jelkner: any feedback or ideas?19:42
aelknerlet's try to keep things as simple as possible19:42
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aelknerso i'd not worry about people being a manager of a group last year for example19:43
ignasusers should not care about it, but the system has to19:43
ignasbecause being a member of something when you take the time into account19:43
ignasbecomes a bit more complicated19:44
aelknerthe members lsit should be tied to time, right?19:44
ignasone of the things we will have to do is define permissions for objects that are "closed"19:44
ignasthings being closed kind of negates relationships19:45
ignasmakes them "outdated"19:45
ignasbut people should be free to look at their old gradebooks19:45
ignasfor example19:45
aelknerwhy must we close sections?19:46
ignaswell - school year is over, term is over, where do changes to a section go now?19:46
aelknerwe want to subdivide sections into terms19:47
aelknerso each term has its members19:47
ignasi am thinking of doing it the other way19:47
ignasrecreating sections every term19:47
aelkneri think it needs to be simple so that the code doesn't become to nasty19:47
aelknerand the tests...19:47
ignasi know19:47
ignasit actually makes the code more simple in a lot of new usecases19:48
ignaswhat gets complicated is the way we think about security19:48
ignaswhich is more or less inevitable, because suddenly roles of people are not absolute anymore19:48
aelknerright now secutiry works off the section, right?19:48
ignaskind of19:49
ignasit works using the "current members/instructors of the section"19:49
aelkneri remember now19:49
aelknerso there is a current term19:49
ignasactually - we don't have a current term i think19:49
aelknerand that would have current members/instructors19:49
aelknerwe should19:49
aelknerit's like the current worksheet i use in the gradebook19:50
ignasmy question is - what happens when a term is over19:50
aelknerthe current term changes to the new term19:50
aelknerbut the user should be able to change it back to an old term19:50
aelknerto look at historical data19:50
ignaswell - he just has links in his section list19:50
ignasthat link to old sections19:51
ignasthat belong to the previous term19:51
ignasso if permissions are set up properly, and if he has the right to see that data19:51
ignashe can just go there19:51
aelknerright, but the user should have the freedom to change the current term to whatever they want19:51
aelkneri don'[t think the system should force the idea on the user based on time19:51
ignasi'd rather allow you to edit data from the last term19:52
ignasthan change the definition of what "last term" is19:52
aelknerdid you see what i did with the gradebook?19:52
ignasespecially when some objects are "school year" based19:52
aelknerthe current worksheet is controllable by the user19:52
ignasand some objects are "just time" based19:52
aelkneri don't like too much automation that puts the user out of control19:53
aelknerif the current date is in a new term19:53
aelknerthe user shouldn't be forced there19:53
aelknermaybe they automatically get changed to the new term19:54
aelknerbut they should easily be able to change the current term to last term19:54
ignaswhat do you mean "changed to the new term"19:54
aelknerterms are static19:54
ignasuser will not be seeing that, probably19:54
aelknerbut the current term (from my point of view) is something the user should be able to choose19:54
aelknera dropdown perhaps19:55
ignashow does the system react to you changing the term?19:55
aelknerthen all data (including membership)19:55
aelknerwill be delivered acoording to the setting od the current term19:55
aelknerand the user controls it19:55
ignasso it's not the user that controls it19:56
ignasbut the system administrator19:56
aelknerno - i think the user shoudl be able to19:56
aelknerthe user should be able to look at past terms that they are members of if they so desire19:56
ignasthey are not members of terms19:56
aelknerthen switch back to the term that represents present day19:56
aelknershouldn't terms have members19:57
ignasusers are members of sections19:57
ignasof groups19:57
ignasand that's it19:57
ignasso last term you were in "yada yada" section19:57
ignasif you want to see what the section was19:57
ignasyou go to your section list19:57
ignasclick on "old sections"19:57
ignasclick on "yada yada"19:57
ignasand see the section the way it was19:58
ignaswhen the term ended19:58
ignasmaybe click on "history" to see that some members were removed in the middle of the last term19:58
ignashow would that be easier to do by switching the whole "term"19:58
aelknerignas - i think it's important that we discuss this before you make any changes, but we have a meeting here19:58
aelknercan we meet tomorrow morning?19:58
ignasi guess19:59
aelknersorry for not being available now19:59
aelknerone last thing19:59
aelkneri would hope that sections would have terms contained in them19:59
aelknerand that terms would have  the groups of teachers/students in them19:59
aelknerin other words, heirarchy20:00
aelkneri could study the code tomight20:00
aelknerand hopefully i'll have more useful things to impart tomorrow20:00
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aelkneris that ok?20:01
ignasas in - meeting tomorrow20:01
aelknerok, i'll get on line as soon as i can tomorrow20:01
ignasaelkner: it seems that one of the disagreements is the role of the section object, i just consider terms more important, thus all the hierarchy should come down from "time periods" of some kind20:09
ignashaving terms low in the hierarchy, while segmenting everything by them as if they were important20:10
ignasseems strange20:10
ignasi'd like more important objects in the top, and less important lower in the hierarchy, and unit now - sections was an object that gets wiped out every wschool year during the creation of the new timetable20:12
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ignas"until now"20:13
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ignasaelkner: is the meeting over?20:56
ignasas for your usecase20:56
ignasfrom what i understand your gradebook is based on the assumption20:57
ignasthat a section survives multiple periods during which students are being graded20:57
ignasand it is very important that the section object would stay the same20:57
aelknersorry ignas, this meeting will last until 4pm20:57
aelkneri will read the log and study tonight20:58
ignashow many hours to go?20:58
ignasoh ;)20:58
ignaswell i'll write it up anyway then20:58
ignasso i'd not forget20:58
aelknergood thinking20:58
aelknersend me a link to it20:58
ignasin the irc20:58
ignasi can send you a link to the logs20:59
ignasthe difference between the way we use the word "term" is this20:59
ignasi am considering the term to be the main component in the time tracking needed by school administration tasks20:59
ignasand timetabling21:00
ignaswhile in your case term is just a component to define a timetable of a section and hook a gradebook up to21:00
ignaswhat stephan did in his term implementation21:00
ignas(i am thinking of doing the same)21:00
ignaswas introduce a different word for defining the thing that you need21:00
ignaswhich is "a grading period"21:00
ignasso a term stays something that defines the lifetime of the section21:01
ignaswhile the term can have as many grading periods defined as you need21:01
ignasso your work sheets would get related to grading periods21:01
ignasand you could keep the track of the "active/selected" grading period21:01
ignaswithout changing much of your code21:02
ignaswhich would keep the hierarchy sane for the rest of the system21:02
ignasotherwise we'd need a many to many connection between terms and sections21:02
ignas(terms are few, sections are many, having each section related to more than one term yields anything but a tree)21:03
ignasand with "term" and "grading period" being two separate things21:03
ignaswe still have it both ways21:03
ignassane way to start a new school year, and modify timetables during the year while keeping track of attendance and other related things21:04
ignasand multiple work sheets sections that while staying the same, can have multiple grading periods during the year21:04
ignassee you in 2 hours ;)21:05
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ignasaelkner, so how did the meeting go?23:39
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th1a_ignas: Oh, you still up?23:55
th1a_I must have forgotten to start xchat on my laptop.23:55
th1a_Sorry I missed all this.23:55
th1a_I think aelkner's view of the problem is a little distorted by the way we hacked together jelkner's gradebook.23:56
ignasi know, on the other hand i would have forgotten a usecase23:56
ignasthat can be supported23:56
ignasby adding a quite small thing called grading periods23:57
th1a_It is a rather common case.23:57
ignasnow i have something of an architectural draft on the whiteboard in the office23:57
ignasand it seems that most of the dynamic timetabling usecases can be supported23:58
th1a_So Stephan and were thinking of sections as having a sequential workflow.23:58
ignasby actually simplifying the code23:58
th1a_That's always good.23:58
aelkneri'm out of the meeting, but that means i need to drive jeff home23:58
ignasstill a lot of work though23:58
aelkneri'm going to be on-line tomorrow morning23:58
th1a_Well, if I'm right it is the last hairy piece.23:58
aelknerafter studying terms tonight23:59
aelknerso could we discuss this then?23:59
aelkneri'm signing of now23:59
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ignasth1a_, if you can call it a "piece"23:59
th1a_Well, that's what makes it hairy.23:59

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