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| balor | trunk is broken. Which branch is considered stable? | 12:31 |
|---|---|---|
| balor | schooltool-2007? | 12:31 |
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| ignas | kkubasik: hi | 17:14 |
| kkubasik | ignas, hey :) | 17:15 |
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| * ignas has started *thinking* about the timeline problems | 18:48 | |
| ignas | it is a *fun* problem | 18:48 |
| ignas | especially the interaction with permissions part | 18:49 |
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| ignas | th1a_, jinty, Lumiere: any of you online? | 18:49 |
| ignas | i need some reflection upon some ideas | 18:49 |
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| ignas | jinty_: problems with internet? | 19:27 |
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| ignas | aelkner: ayt? | 19:31 |
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| ignas | jelkner: maybe you have some time | 19:33 |
| jelkner | ignas: alan is eating | 19:34 |
| ignas | i see | 19:34 |
| jelkner | we will be there in a few moments | 19:34 |
| ignas | ok | 19:34 |
| jelkner | but dwelsh is here | 19:34 |
| jelkner | we have our monthly cando meeting | 19:34 |
| ignas | i am pondering some sweeping changes for the way some things in schooltool work | 19:34 |
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| ignas | and wanted to consult about some ideas | 19:34 |
| ignas | relating to security of the application | 19:34 |
| ignas | to the security model | 19:35 |
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| ignas | as you probably know - we are going to do some changes to schooltool to handle time better | 19:36 |
| aelkner | ok, i'm putting my food down and will eat during our meeting here in 10 minutes | 19:36 |
| ignas | which means that if you add a member to the section or remove someone from the section | 19:36 |
| ignas | the system will give you options for removal of the member "permanently" | 19:37 |
| aelkner | ok | 19:37 |
| ignas | as in "for all instances of time in the lifetime of the section" | 19:37 |
| aelkner | terms | 19:37 |
| ignas | and "from tomorrow" | 19:37 |
| ignas | or from some date | 19:37 |
| ignas | so if you had john in your section for 3 months | 19:37 |
| ignas | and then decided that he has to go to some other section | 19:37 |
| ignas | system will know that john was it's member for that time | 19:38 |
| ignas | which will be visible in lyceum journal for example | 19:38 |
| ignas | or attendance | 19:38 |
| ignas | now what it means for the security model | 19:38 |
| ignas | as sections will have lifetime | 19:38 |
| ignas | lifetime being "time during which the section is active" | 19:39 |
| ignas | a term most probably | 19:39 |
| ignas | and instructors will be tracked during that time | 19:39 |
| ignas | so john was teaching the section for 3 months, and now peter is teaching it | 19:39 |
| ignas | this adds some more options to the permission model of ours | 19:39 |
| ignas | because if we had permissions like "instructor of a section can see it's members" | 19:40 |
| ignas | now we will need to handle cases like: | 19:40 |
| ignas | "section is closed now, can the last instructor still see it" | 19:40 |
| ignas | "section is still open, but you only teached it for a month, can you still see it" | 19:41 |
| ignas | or "you were in the administrator group last year, can you still manage objects?" | 19:41 |
| ignas | (no is my guess) | 19:41 |
| ignas | ;) | 19:41 |
| aelkner | let | 19:42 |
| ignas | aelkner, jelkner: any feedback or ideas? | 19:42 |
| aelkner | let's try to keep things as simple as possible | 19:42 |
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| aelkner | so i'd not worry about people being a manager of a group last year for example | 19:43 |
| ignas | users should not care about it, but the system has to | 19:43 |
| ignas | because being a member of something when you take the time into account | 19:43 |
| ignas | becomes a bit more complicated | 19:44 |
| aelkner | the members lsit should be tied to time, right? | 19:44 |
| ignas | yes | 19:44 |
| ignas | one of the things we will have to do is define permissions for objects that are "closed" | 19:44 |
| ignas | things being closed kind of negates relationships | 19:45 |
| ignas | makes them "outdated" | 19:45 |
| ignas | but people should be free to look at their old gradebooks | 19:45 |
| ignas | for example | 19:45 |
| aelkner | why must we close sections? | 19:46 |
| ignas | well - school year is over, term is over, where do changes to a section go now? | 19:46 |
| aelkner | we want to subdivide sections into terms | 19:47 |
| aelkner | so each term has its members | 19:47 |
| ignas | i am thinking of doing it the other way | 19:47 |
| ignas | recreating sections every term | 19:47 |
| aelkner | i think it needs to be simple so that the code doesn't become to nasty | 19:47 |
| aelkner | and the tests... | 19:47 |
| ignas | i know | 19:47 |
| ignas | it actually makes the code more simple in a lot of new usecases | 19:48 |
| ignas | what gets complicated is the way we think about security | 19:48 |
| ignas | which is more or less inevitable, because suddenly roles of people are not absolute anymore | 19:48 |
| aelkner | right now secutiry works off the section, right? | 19:48 |
| ignas | kind of | 19:49 |
| ignas | it works using the "current members/instructors of the section" | 19:49 |
| aelkner | i remember now | 19:49 |
| aelkner | so there is a current term | 19:49 |
| ignas | actually - we don't have a current term i think | 19:49 |
| aelkner | and that would have current members/instructors | 19:49 |
| aelkner | we should | 19:49 |
| ignas | yes | 19:49 |
| ignas | yes | 19:50 |
| aelkner | it's like the current worksheet i use in the gradebook | 19:50 |
| ignas | my question is - what happens when a term is over | 19:50 |
| aelkner | the current term changes to the new term | 19:50 |
| aelkner | but the user should be able to change it back to an old term | 19:50 |
| ignas | ? | 19:50 |
| aelkner | to look at historical data | 19:50 |
| ignas | well - he just has links in his section list | 19:50 |
| ignas | that link to old sections | 19:51 |
| ignas | that belong to the previous term | 19:51 |
| ignas | so if permissions are set up properly, and if he has the right to see that data | 19:51 |
| ignas | he can just go there | 19:51 |
| aelkner | right, but the user should have the freedom to change the current term to whatever they want | 19:51 |
| ignas | ? | 19:51 |
| aelkner | i don'[t think the system should force the idea on the user based on time | 19:51 |
| ignas | i'd rather allow you to edit data from the last term | 19:52 |
| aelkner | right | 19:52 |
| ignas | than change the definition of what "last term" is | 19:52 |
| aelkner | did you see what i did with the gradebook? | 19:52 |
| ignas | especially when some objects are "school year" based | 19:52 |
| aelkner | the current worksheet is controllable by the user | 19:52 |
| ignas | and some objects are "just time" based | 19:52 |
| aelkner | i don't like too much automation that puts the user out of control | 19:53 |
| aelkner | if the current date is in a new term | 19:53 |
| aelkner | the user shouldn't be forced there | 19:53 |
| aelkner | maybe they automatically get changed to the new term | 19:54 |
| aelkner | but they should easily be able to change the current term to last term | 19:54 |
| ignas | what do you mean "changed to the new term" | 19:54 |
| aelkner | terms are static | 19:54 |
| ignas | user will not be seeing that, probably | 19:54 |
| aelkner | but the current term (from my point of view) is something the user should be able to choose | 19:54 |
| aelkner | a dropdown perhaps | 19:55 |
| ignas | how does the system react to you changing the term? | 19:55 |
| aelkner | then all data (including membership) | 19:55 |
| aelkner | will be delivered acoording to the setting od the current term | 19:55 |
| aelkner | and the user controls it | 19:55 |
| ignas | so it's not the user that controls it | 19:56 |
| ignas | but the system administrator | 19:56 |
| aelkner | no - i think the user shoudl be able to | 19:56 |
| ignas | ? | 19:56 |
| ignas | why? | 19:56 |
| aelkner | the user should be able to look at past terms that they are members of if they so desire | 19:56 |
| ignas | they are not members of terms | 19:56 |
| aelkner | then switch back to the term that represents present day | 19:56 |
| aelkner | shouldn't terms have members | 19:57 |
| aelkner | ? | 19:57 |
| ignas | ? | 19:57 |
| ignas | users are members of sections | 19:57 |
| ignas | of groups | 19:57 |
| ignas | and that's it | 19:57 |
| ignas | so last term you were in "yada yada" section | 19:57 |
| ignas | if you want to see what the section was | 19:57 |
| ignas | you go to your section list | 19:57 |
| ignas | click on "old sections" | 19:57 |
| ignas | click on "yada yada" | 19:57 |
| ignas | and see the section the way it was | 19:58 |
| ignas | when the term ended | 19:58 |
| ignas | maybe click on "history" to see that some members were removed in the middle of the last term | 19:58 |
| ignas | how would that be easier to do by switching the whole "term" | 19:58 |
| aelkner | ignas - i think it's important that we discuss this before you make any changes, but we have a meeting here | 19:58 |
| aelkner | can we meet tomorrow morning? | 19:58 |
| ignas | i guess | 19:59 |
| aelkner | sorry for not being available now | 19:59 |
| aelkner | one last thing | 19:59 |
| aelkner | i would hope that sections would have terms contained in them | 19:59 |
| aelkner | and that terms would have the groups of teachers/students in them | 19:59 |
| aelkner | in other words, heirarchy | 20:00 |
| aelkner | i could study the code tomight | 20:00 |
| aelkner | and hopefully i'll have more useful things to impart tomorrow | 20:00 |
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| aelkner | is that ok? | 20:01 |
| ignas | ok? | 20:01 |
| ignas | as in - meeting tomorrow | 20:01 |
| aelkner | yes | 20:01 |
| ignas | yes | 20:01 |
| aelkner | ok, i'll get on line as soon as i can tomorrow | 20:01 |
| ignas | aelkner: it seems that one of the disagreements is the role of the section object, i just consider terms more important, thus all the hierarchy should come down from "time periods" of some kind | 20:09 |
| ignas | having terms low in the hierarchy, while segmenting everything by them as if they were important | 20:10 |
| ignas | seems strange | 20:10 |
| ignas | i'd like more important objects in the top, and less important lower in the hierarchy, and unit now - sections was an object that gets wiped out every wschool year during the creation of the new timetable | 20:12 |
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| ignas | "until now" | 20:13 |
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| ignas | aelkner: is the meeting over? | 20:56 |
| ignas | as for your usecase | 20:56 |
| ignas | from what i understand your gradebook is based on the assumption | 20:57 |
| ignas | that a section survives multiple periods during which students are being graded | 20:57 |
| ignas | and it is very important that the section object would stay the same | 20:57 |
| aelkner | sorry ignas, this meeting will last until 4pm | 20:57 |
| aelkner | i will read the log and study tonight | 20:58 |
| ignas | how many hours to go? | 20:58 |
| aelkner | 2 | 20:58 |
| ignas | oh ;) | 20:58 |
| ignas | well i'll write it up anyway then | 20:58 |
| ignas | so i'd not forget | 20:58 |
| aelkner | good thinking | 20:58 |
| aelkner | send me a link to it | 20:58 |
| ignas | in the irc | 20:58 |
| ignas | ;) | 20:58 |
| ignas | i can send you a link to the logs | 20:59 |
| ignas | the difference between the way we use the word "term" is this | 20:59 |
| ignas | i am considering the term to be the main component in the time tracking needed by school administration tasks | 20:59 |
| ignas | attendance | 21:00 |
| ignas | and timetabling | 21:00 |
| ignas | while in your case term is just a component to define a timetable of a section and hook a gradebook up to | 21:00 |
| ignas | what stephan did in his term implementation | 21:00 |
| ignas | (i am thinking of doing the same) | 21:00 |
| ignas | was introduce a different word for defining the thing that you need | 21:00 |
| ignas | which is "a grading period" | 21:00 |
| ignas | so a term stays something that defines the lifetime of the section | 21:01 |
| ignas | while the term can have as many grading periods defined as you need | 21:01 |
| ignas | so your work sheets would get related to grading periods | 21:01 |
| ignas | and you could keep the track of the "active/selected" grading period | 21:01 |
| ignas | without changing much of your code | 21:02 |
| ignas | which would keep the hierarchy sane for the rest of the system | 21:02 |
| ignas | otherwise we'd need a many to many connection between terms and sections | 21:02 |
| ignas | (terms are few, sections are many, having each section related to more than one term yields anything but a tree) | 21:03 |
| ignas | and with "term" and "grading period" being two separate things | 21:03 |
| ignas | we still have it both ways | 21:03 |
| ignas | sane way to start a new school year, and modify timetables during the year while keeping track of attendance and other related things | 21:04 |
| ignas | and multiple work sheets sections that while staying the same, can have multiple grading periods during the year | 21:04 |
| ignas | see you in 2 hours ;) | 21:05 |
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| ignas | aelkner, so how did the meeting go? | 23:39 |
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| th1a_ | ignas: Oh, you still up? | 23:55 |
| ignas | yes | 23:55 |
| th1a_ | I must have forgotten to start xchat on my laptop. | 23:55 |
| th1a_ | Sorry I missed all this. | 23:55 |
| ignas | :) | 23:56 |
| th1a_ | I think aelkner's view of the problem is a little distorted by the way we hacked together jelkner's gradebook. | 23:56 |
| ignas | i know, on the other hand i would have forgotten a usecase | 23:56 |
| ignas | that can be supported | 23:56 |
| ignas | by adding a quite small thing called grading periods | 23:57 |
| th1a_ | It is a rather common case. | 23:57 |
| ignas | now i have something of an architectural draft on the whiteboard in the office | 23:57 |
| ignas | and it seems that most of the dynamic timetabling usecases can be supported | 23:58 |
| th1a_ | So Stephan and were thinking of sections as having a sequential workflow. | 23:58 |
| ignas | by actually simplifying the code | 23:58 |
| th1a_ | That's always good. | 23:58 |
| aelkner | i'm out of the meeting, but that means i need to drive jeff home | 23:58 |
| ignas | still a lot of work though | 23:58 |
| aelkner | i'm going to be on-line tomorrow morning | 23:58 |
| th1a_ | Well, if I'm right it is the last hairy piece. | 23:58 |
| aelkner | after studying terms tonight | 23:59 |
| aelkner | so could we discuss this then? | 23:59 |
| ignas | ok | 23:59 |
| aelkner | i'm signing of now | 23:59 |
| aelkner | bye | 23:59 |
| th1a_ | bye | 23:59 |
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| ignas | th1a_, if you can call it a "piece" | 23:59 |
| th1a_ | Well, that's what makes it hairy. | 23:59 |
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