IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2007-11-05

*** th1a_ has joined #schooltool00:59
*** th1a_ has quit IRC02:13
*** th1a_ has joined #schooltool02:46
*** th1a_ has quit IRC03:25
*** lisppaste5 has quit IRC03:42
*** lisppaste5 has joined #schooltool03:48
*** didymo has quit IRC08:28
*** jfroche has joined #schooltool10:26
*** ignas has joined #schooltool12:34
*** ignas has quit IRC13:39
*** aelkner_ has quit IRC15:28
*** aelkner has joined #schooltool15:29
*** th1a_ has joined #schooltool15:37
th1a_We're having breakfast here...15:37
*** jelkner has joined #schooltool15:48
th1a_Hi jelkner.16:04
th1a_Did aelkner talk to you about reports?16:04
*** ignas has joined #schooltool16:06
jelknerth1a_: i'm doing grades16:06
jelkneri won't be up for air until tomorrow evening...16:06
jelkneri'll want to talk to him as soon as i can16:07
th1a_jelkner: He's got some time and I'd like him to do as much as what you're going to need for the rest of the year now.16:16
jelknerth1a_: great!  i'll follow up with this after i finish 1st quarter grades16:25
Lumierejelkner: is today a teacher work day?16:26
jelknerLumiere: tomorrow16:27
Lumierea tuesday teacher workday?16:27
Lumiereso they gotta come to class today16:28
Lumierethen off for election day?16:28
aelknerhello all16:28
Lumierehi more elkners16:28
th1a_hi jfroche, aelkner, ignas, Lumiere.16:31
aelknerhey tom16:31
th1a_I seem to have brought jfroche's cold back from Belgium.16:32
th1a_I will now spread it throughout the northeast US.16:32
th1a_Hm... now we don't seem to have ignas and jfroche.16:35
* th1a_ goes to get my notes from the trip.16:36
Lumiereth1a_: sounds like fun16:37
th1a_OK... ignas and I worked on an updated roadmap.16:37
th1a_Longer term roadmap.16:38
Lumiereis there a link16:38
th1a_Working backwards... Hardy+2, the April 2009 release will be SchoolTool "1.0"16:38
th1a_Meaning, some reasonable subset of schools will be able to apt-get install schooltool and have a default configuration of SchoolTool which is useful.16:39
th1a_With documentation for using it.16:39
th1a_That is, demographics/gradebook/attendance/calendaring/resource booking and reporting the above.16:40
th1a_It certainly won't work for everyone, but it will be a recognizably complete student information system.16:40
th1a_For Hardy, the goals are:16:41
th1a_Dealing with terms and the passage of time, hiding last term's data, etc.16:41
th1a_That's the big hairy one.16:42
th1a_SchoolTool gradebook in the core release.16:42
th1a_Stable packages for Zope 3.4 and other dependencies (a lot of work is finally being done on that, actually by srichter).16:42
th1a_(for his own needs)16:43
th1a_So the Zope release situation is finally looking less disastrous.16:43
th1a_Things which are hovering between Hardy and Hardy+1 are LDAP and CAS support integrated into trunk.16:44
th1a_And converting the Lyceum journal into the default attendance module in trunk.16:44
th1a_In terms of attendance, we're going to explicitly target section attendance, not the whole-day legal attendance necessary in US schools.16:45
*** th1a has quit IRC16:45
Lumiereis there any discussion of SIF integration as well?16:45
Lumiereth1a_: whole-day attendance could be a report16:45
Lumieregenerated by section attendances16:45
th1a_Well, I think we need to avoid all the LEGAL stuff around excused/unexcused attendance for the day.16:45
th1a_It is a hairball, and I don't anticipate having a client who will be using it next year.16:46
Lumiereth1a_: what is CAS, and are there any SIF plans?16:46
th1a_CAS is a single sign on system.16:46
th1a_So you log into CAS and you're logged into SchoolTool, Moodle, etc.16:47
th1a_This would replace one of the obvious SIF use cases.16:47
th1a_I'm running out of SIF enthusiasm, so something would have to happen to give it a good push.16:48
jfrocheth1a_: so sorry for the cold ;)16:49
th1a_jfroche: I'll get over it.16:50
jfrochei begin to recorver myself16:50
th1a_Also, I could have gotten it on one of the three planes I sat in on Saturday.16:50
th1a_The 8 hour flight across the Atlantic was pretty miserable.16:50
th1a_My seat wouldn't recline.16:50
th1a_But I got a massage in the Philly airport, and that helped quite a bit.16:51
th1a_I visited the Lyceum and the teachers in the computer science dept. Ignas has been working with.16:51
ignasth1a_: i am here, got my attention pulled off16:52
th1a_We're a little behind there, but at least we're behind in the "ok, now we see what we need to do to make the beginning of school work" sense.16:52
th1a_We learned something -- that we have to be able to juggle section enrollments, in particular without losing attendance data while doing it.16:53
th1a_The main thing I tried to push there is getting Ignas to visit the school weekly.16:54
th1a_ignas: Tuesday afternoons?16:54
ignastuesday afternoons16:54
ignasby the way - i fixed an IE7 related bug in trunk, so i think i will backport it to release as soon as  i can16:55
th1a_We've got Feisty/Gutsy packages almost working.16:55
th1a_In PPA.16:55
ignasthe portlets were not working, because of a bug in IE7 :/16:55
th1a_Ah, when did you discover that?16:56
ignashmm, friday i think16:56
ignasas soon as i installed all the debug tools for IE16:57
ignasi mean - it's the bug Lyceum reported16:57
th1a_So what's the problem?16:57
ignasbut it took some time for me to find the cause16:57
ignasi assumed it was javascript16:57
ignasbut apparently - some floats affect rendering in such a way16:57
ignasthat does not allow you to click on anything16:57
ignasin the area16:57
ignaswhich was disabling the whole portlet area16:58
ignasso i think this fix should be backported to release too16:58
th1a_I'd agree.16:59
th1a_So it was a pretty easy fix?16:59
ignaskind of16:59
ignasluck basicaly16:59
th1a_I'll take it.16:59
ignasi have noticed that the image at the top of the portlets *is* working properly17:00
th1a_One thing ignas worked on that Lumiere may appreciate is making bug reports to LaunchPad directly from SchoolTool, using Launchpad web services.17:00
ignasand that helped me to find the workaround17:00
th1a_One other problem with the packages is that the Zope3 package seems to be stuck in an endless loop of reinstallation.17:02
th1a_It constantly prompts you to update it with the same version.17:02
ignasyes, i can always see the icon down there17:03
Lumiereyesssssss please!17:03
th1a_So I need to figure out what's up with that, or get jinty to figure it out.17:03
Lumierebug reports that are easy for teachers17:03
th1a_I think it will be a big help, although we'll need to do a lot of triaging.17:04
th1a_ignas: Anything else we need to mention from Vilnius?17:04
ignasLumiere: but don't they like the "Is your bug a duplicate" form? ;)17:04
ignasth1a_: well - i have fixed a couple of small bugs with journal17:04
ignasand now will be thinking about redirects for events17:04
ignasbecause that one is tricky apparently17:05
*** mattva01 has joined #schooltool17:05
mattva01ok whats the issue17:05
aelknermattva01: we're not discussing jeff's bug here.  that was private chat17:06
th1a_mattva01: With the zope3 package?17:06
mattva01no not that tom17:06
aelknergo ahead and private chat me17:06
Lumierehi mattva01 where's my package ^^17:07
th1a_mattva01: If you want, you could check to see why the zope3 package keeps trying to update itself with the same version:
*** th1a_ is now known as th1a17:08
mattva01you'll have it by tonight or by tuesday afternoon(depending on whether I have to rake leaves)17:08
th1aOK.  Moving on to Belgium.17:08
th1ajfroche and I arrived at Waterloo as the gift shop was closing, and the battlefield was socked in with fog.17:09
th1aSo I didn't see much, and I'm mad I didn't stick 2 euros in the machine in the gift shop entrance to get my little "I was a Waterloo" coin.17:09
jfrochestill can go & fetch one for you ;)17:10
th1aIn other news, jfroche and I agreed that the partnership with the school in Brussels hasn't really taken.17:10
th1aAnd it is probably best to let that drop.17:11
th1aWe just didn't have enough push from the school itself.17:11
jfrochei still need to tell them but i don't think they will be sad learning this17:11
th1aThey weren't really committed.17:11
th1aLuckily, I don't think we'll have a situation in the future where we're just casting about for a school.17:12
th1aAs we were a year ago.17:12
th1aSo in the meantime, jfroche is going to do some more general work on SchoolTool.17:13
th1aWe made up some blueprints to clean up the calendar views.17:13
th1aParticularly the week view, which has always sucked.17:13
th1aAnd the PDF views.17:13
th1aWhich were done in the simplest way possible.17:14
th1aI think those are the main points from Belgium.17:15
th1aAnything else to add, jfroche?17:15
jfrocheno that tasks can be assigned to me in blue print17:15
jfrocheuhm in launchpad i mean17:15
th1aI also assigned a couple new blueprints to andrew rodriguez.17:17
th1aI have to see if he wants either of them so I can reassign them if he doesn't.17:17
th1aOK, lastly, aelkner needs some things to do.17:18
th1aWhat did we pick yesterday, aelkner?17:19
aelknerwe just looked at bugs17:19
aelkneri can't remember what else17:19
th1aDidn't we pick something?17:19
aelknersooy, slipped my mind17:19
th1aTwo old men talking on the phone.17:19
th1aCompletely useless.17:19
aelknerspeak for yourself :)17:20
th1aDidn't we decide one thing you were going to start working on?17:20
aelkneri believe you said we'll discuss it here17:20
aelknerand that was all17:20
LumiereI think it was more that it was the weekend, and younger men forget everything over the weekend ^^17:20
aelknermaybe ignas has a thought on something that could use doing17:21
th1aDidn't we decide one single thing you could do today until jelkner tells you what to do next?17:21
aelkneri was to discuss report cards with him17:21
aelknermaybe that was it17:22
ignasaelkner: hmm, what size of task, and how well specified do you want?17:22
th1aI remember.17:22
aelknerfor now, how about you throw some ideas out there17:22
th1aSwitching between sections in the gradebook.17:22
aelknerah yes, the tabs17:22
aelknerand report cards17:23
th1aBeyond that, it sounds like jelkner will have more things for you by the time you've got that implemented.17:23
aelkneryeah.  he already is reporting a gradebook bug that i'll need to look at.17:23
th1aalso, could you update the "delivery" status of your blueprints?17:24
aelknerwill do17:24
aelkneri still thinbk it wouldn't hurt to get me thinkinbg of some jind of task that i could do when jelkner's not responding to me for whatever reason17:24
th1aLet's see... I need October invoices from ignas & aelkner.17:25
aelknerwill do17:25
ignasth1a: i'll tel Aiste about that17:25
th1aaelkner: Probably jelkner will keep you busy until we shift you over to working with SLA.17:26
th1aWho will keep you busy, I venture.17:26
aelkneralso there's cando work that needs doing17:26
aelkneri can put it at a low priority17:26
aelknerbut if i get blocked by jeff being too busy, i could shoft to it17:27
th1aAs we discussed yesterday, I just don't want you working on new CanDo features.17:27
ignasaelkner: if you will have some free time, i'd like you and jelkner to look at lyceum gradebook UI, and see if you could use it for section attendance17:27
Lumiereaelkner: don't let welsh hear that17:27
Lumiere(I am not telling him)17:27
aelknerLumiere: it's not me.  look at what tom just said17:27
aelkneri think tom needs to let him know17:28
th1aI'm ok with CanDo bugfixes and report generation having higher priority.17:28
LumiereI want to ensure that any single signon stuff will be able to be adopted by arlington at some point (I would like to have Schooltool for calendaring and reserving rooms)17:28
ignasLumiere: i can help you with that17:28
aelknerLumiere: of course any single-signon work will benefit cando17:28
ignasLumiere: just talk to me some time, and i'll explain what CAS is about17:29
th1aLumiere: Yes, we need more bugs and blueprints for calendaring and resource booking.17:29
ignasand what it can do for oyu17:29
th1aOK... that's our hour.17:30
th1aAny last words?17:30
aelkneri was innocent?17:30
th1aI'm feeling a lot better about SchoolTool than I have in a long time.17:30
aelknerne last smoke?17:30
th1aThere is a light at the end of the tunnel.17:30
aelknera blindfold?17:30
aelknergo into the light17:31
th1aaelkner: Indeed.17:31
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:31
aelknerouch.  you hit my foot17:31
th1aOh, 14:30 UTC next week, too.17:31
aelkneris that 9:30 EST?17:31
ignassomeone update the topic17:31
th1aaelkner: Yes.17:32
*** mgedmin has joined #schooltool17:33
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o Lumiere17:35
*** Lumiere changes topic to "SchoolTool development | new trial release coming for Ubuntu Gutsy! | IRC logs at | Dev meetings Mon, 13:30 UTC (14:30 EET, 9:30 EST) | Use for pasting | Write more unit and functional tests! Yes, you!"17:36
*** Lumiere sets mode: -o lisppaste517:36
*** Lumiere sets mode: -o Lumiere17:36
ignasLumiere: emm 14:30 UTC i think17:41
ignasand 16:30 EET17:43
*** Lumiere changes topic to "SchoolTool development | new trial release coming for Ubuntu Gutsy! | IRC logs at | Dev meetings Mon, 14:30 UTC (16:30 EET, 9:30 EST) | Use for pasting | Write more unit and functional tests! Yes, you!"17:45
aelknerth1a: do i need to wait for you to assign me jeff's new bug, or should i assign myself18:09
th1aYou can assign it to yourself.18:09
aelknerth1a: how do i mark a blueprint as having been deployed?18:23
th1aaelkner: Can you change status? (Actions)18:24
aelknergot it.  thanks.18:25
aelknerth1a: jelkner's breadcrumbs blueprint should remain cause his point about login screens is well taken18:36
aelknerwe need a new blueprint for the sction tabs for gradebook18:36
aelkneri'd be happy to create it myself, but how?18:36
th1aNo, no, no.18:36
th1aI mean,18:37
aelkneri'm glad you summarily dismiss me first, then think about it :)18:37
th1aGo to the main blueprints screen for schooltool and click on the "register a blueprint" button.18:37
th1aI was confused about how your two statements related.18:38
th1aAnyhow, the fact that he's getting a login screen is a problem with the section view, not the breadcrumb.18:38
aelkneri believe the login screen comes up only when he clicks on the sections (plural) breadcrumb as only administators have access to the container.18:42
aelkneryes.  i confirmed that.  he has a point with that.18:43
aelknerideally, there shouldn't be a link appearing that will not be useful18:44
aelknerand a login dialog doesn't explain that the reason is that they need admin rights18:45
aelknerth1a: you know, this could be a case for fixing breadcrumbs site-wide18:46
th1aWhat do you mean?18:47
aelknerone could make the case that no breadcrumb should appear if the user will only be rejected18:47
th1aNo, I'd say the views should be changed so that the user will never be rejected.18:47
aelknershould teachers be able to add sections?18:47
aelknerthat's what would happen if we allowed them permissions on the sections container18:48
ignasBreadcrumb not being a link if you can't go there is one way18:48
ignasread only views for stuff18:48
ignasis another way18:48
ignasno it would not happen, the view should be visible18:48
th1aI'm saying if you are sent to the sections index, you should get a useful view.18:48
ignaseven if you can't add a section18:48
th1aSo the view should show you, say, your sections.18:49
th1aIt should be an index of sections you've got permission to see.18:49
aelknerwell, we have the dashboard doing that now18:49
aelknerand that's what jeff wanted to get when clicking on the sections breadcrumb18:50
th1aI'm just saying that's the rational behavior for a teacher clicking on the sections breadcrumb.18:50
aelknerjeff thinks so, too18:50
th1aIf you click on "sections" you should get "sections."18:50
aelknerwith links to the gradebooks18:50
aelknerso, we wouldn't need the tabs if we haf that18:50
ignasif you will be assuming that gradebooks are there - do it on jelkner200718:51
th1aI'm just saying that this is an "improve the sections index" problem.  Not a "breadcrumbs" bug.18:51
th1aI still think a direct gradebook to gradebook link is preferable anyhow.18:52
aelkneri could change the default view of the sections container to redirect to the dashboard for teachers and students18:52
aelknerignas: your thoughts?18:52
ignasif you are assuming a dashboard - do it on jelkner200718:52
aelkneri could18:52
ignasi am for a generic section index for schooltool18:52
ignasthat shows your sections18:52
th1aThe sections link on a breadcrumb should be a link to an index of sections, period.18:52
ignaseven if you can see these things in some other place too18:52
th1aExactly what is in that index, I don't care.18:53
th1aBut "sections" shouldn't be a link to "dashboard."18:53
th1aAnd "sections" shouldn't be a link to "gradebooks."18:53
aelknerso the sections view will show only those sections the teacher or student is in, and the links will take you to the section view (not the gradebook)18:54
th1aUnless the breadcrumb's behavior always changes based on context, which I don't think is a good idea.18:54
th1aaelkner: That's ok with me.18:54
ignas+1 for that18:54
aelkneralthough students are not allowed into the section view i think18:54
ignas2 parts of sections18:55
aelknerso what then?18:55
ignasno links18:55
th1aOne underlying point here is that the correct way to switch from grading one section to grading another...18:55
ignasonly titles18:55
ignasjust the way it's in ViewPerson18:55
th1ashould not be to go through the sections breadcrumbs.18:55
ignasfor basicperson18:55
ignasif you are a student18:55
aelknerth1a: so section tabs will sove that18:55
ignasyou see all the sections, without links18:55
ignasif you are a teacher you see all the links to sections18:55
ignasand if you are both - you see 2 lists of sections18:55
th1aI'd say everyone should see an index view of the sections they've got permission to view.18:56
ignasth1a: student's don't have any sections to view, otoh - they should not see sections breadcrumb ever18:56
th1aStudent's should be able to view the sections they're members of.18:57
th1aAlthough this may be getting into territory where there will have to be different views for different roles.18:57
th1aWell, we can discuss that in more detail later.18:59
aelkneri agree it can wait18:59
th1aBut the main point now is the section view should be an index of the sections you can view.18:59
ignasth1a: isn't it just that at the moment?18:59
th1aBut if you can't view any sections, it should say "you can't see anything here" not give you a log in screen.18:59
ignasby the way - a permission error in there for teachers might be a bug19:00
th1aWell, the original bug here seems to be that a teacher - jelkner - is getting a login screen when he should see a list of the sections he can view (his).19:00
th1aThat might be the bug.19:00
ignasso looking at why he is getting the login screen should be done first19:00
aelknerthe sections view has never worked for anyone other than admin19:01
th1aaelkner: Can you investigate that?19:01
ignasbefore doing something with section view19:01
th1aAh.  Well, see, that's the bug.19:01
aelknerand there's no logic in the sections view for 'my sections'19:01
aelknerthat would need to be added and the security changed19:01
th1aI don't think you need "my sections."19:02
aelkneri can do all of that work under the blueprint jeff posted for the breadcumbs error19:02
th1aFor everyone other than an admin, that's implicit.19:02
aelkner'my sections' was just a concept19:02
th1aWell, just try to figure out what is going on with the permissions.19:02
aelknernot a proposal for view title19:02
aelknerwill do19:03
ignasth1a: aelkner is right, i can't find the logic for filtering of sections in there ... don't know why i thought it was in there19:03
th1aWe do do that in some other index views, though.19:04
th1aI think.19:04
ignasi thought so too, but can't recall in which views19:04
aelknerso we agree that i will fix the sections view to behave according to role?19:05
ignasnot role19:05
aelknerwith links for teachers and only section titles (no links) for students19:06
ignaslook at person view19:06
ignasand at how it deals with sections19:06
aelknerignas: which person, basic or demo?19:08
ignasor even schooltool.person19:08
th1aaelkner: Right now, just make the sections view show the sections you've got permission to view.19:09
th1aUltimately, we've got some choices to handle how a student sees a section.19:10
ignasin a branch if possible19:10
ignasbecause this one might touch a lot of places19:10
th1aProbably, we should make the default view of a section only show things that a student/parent, etc. can see.19:10
th1aAnd make the administrative things that are currently in the basic section view in a different place.19:10
aelknerthis sounds like a candidate for its own blueprint19:11
th1aWell, yes.19:11
th1aI can throw a stub up for that.19:11
aelknerignas: i made a change to trunk for jeff for a gradebook bug19:13
aelknernow how do they get that change loaded on their system19:13
aelknerthe eggs are only built nightly, right?19:13
ignasas buildbot is broken because of some egg isues19:14
ignasyou must issue an egg rebuild command yourself19:14
ignasforce build19:15
ignasit will rebuild the egg19:15
ignasand they will have to do "bin/buildout -n"19:15
aelknermattva01: you get that last part?19:15
aelkneri will let you know when to do that19:16
aelknerthat should be your procedure for now on19:16
aelknerso make a note if it, ok?19:16
aelknerlet me do the rebuild, and i'll tell you when to go19:16
mattva01i've got 12 minutes19:18
aelknerhopefully it will be ready in time19:19
aelknerignas: it asks me for a branch to build, and i put in trunk, but that didn't work19:20
aelknerwould i need to specify
aelknertried that, and it didn't work either19:23
aelknerignas: ?19:24
ignasdon't put anything19:25
ignasjust click the button19:25
aelknerthat did the trick, thanks19:28
aelknerignas: matt is running bin/buildout -n as you advised, and it's doing so many things including gcc19:35
aelkneris that what you would expect?19:35
aelknermattva01: is there any other behaviour your could describe to ignas?19:36
mattva01hmm appears to be nearly done19:36
aelkneri mean, there's no harm in recompiling everything, but i'd like to hear what ignas has to say about it19:37
mattva01ok done19:37
mattva01ugh , elkner is in a phone call19:38
aelknerinterrupt him.  you're missing class while helping him, so...19:39
mattva01yes that works19:40
aelknerwhat works?19:40
mattva01the averages19:40
ignasit sometimes updates some old eggs, sometimes libxml i think19:40
mattva01yeah it took forever :)19:41
aelknerbut it was successful which is what really matters19:41
mattva01ok i g2g19:41
*** mattva01 has quit IRC19:41
*** jelkner has quit IRC19:47
th1aignas: Do you need to create a branch for Ian?19:54
th1aignas: Or, Ian thinks you need to create a branch for him.19:56
th1aI'm a little confused.19:56
ignasthere is a branch for Ian already19:59
*** ignas has quit IRC20:14
*** jelkner has joined #schooltool21:07
*** jelkner has quit IRC21:10
*** jelkner has joined #schooltool21:10
*** ignas has joined #schooltool21:12
ignasth1a: looked at the email, though i am confused about what they need from me too21:13
ignasthey asked for repository access21:13
ignasso i told them to talk to jinty21:13
ignasbecause he is the person who can add new ssh keys21:14
*** ignas has quit IRC21:20
*** jelkner has quit IRC21:29
*** th1a_ has joined #schooltool21:48
*** mgedmin has quit IRC21:55
*** th1a has quit IRC21:57
*** th1a has joined #schooltool22:12
*** didymo has joined #schooltool23:04

Generated by 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!