IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2007-10-15

*** didymo has joined #schooltool00:16
*** jfroche has quit IRC02:01
*** didymo has quit IRC03:27
*** didymo has joined #schooltool03:33
*** th1a has quit IRC07:34
*** th1a has joined #schooltool07:34
*** lameiro has quit IRC08:29
*** didymo has quit IRC09:33
*** ignas has joined #schooltool10:54
*** jfroche has joined #schooltool12:38
*** ignas has quit IRC13:50
*** ignas has joined #schooltool14:07
*** ignas has quit IRC14:08
*** ignas has joined #schooltool14:08
*** th1a_ has joined #schooltool14:54
*** CrippsFX has left #schooltool15:51
Lumiere'morning everyone15:58
LumiereI am going to be on and off for today15:59
th1aGood morning Lumiere.15:59
LumiereI am running a video conference here at ACC16:14
th1aHi ignas, aelkner.16:15
aelknerLumiere: have you noticed the cando buildbot failures?16:15
ignaswhee, on one hand - my fault16:18
ignason the other hand - aren't you supposed to be using alpha release?16:18
ignasinstead of svn trunk16:18
aelkneri suppose we need to change our make file16:19
aelknerwhat is name of the egg we're supposed to use now?16:20
ignas ?16:20
ignasnow you are using:
ignasi think16:20
aelknerwhy did you put a ? after the alpha path?  are you not sure if that's the one?16:21
th1aShould I be able to install .debs for the new alpha, or do they need to be built?  Anyone other than jinty know?16:22
ignasbecause i "think" you should be using it16:22
aelkneraren't you supposed to tel us what to use?16:23
Lumiereaelkner: no16:23
Lumierelooking now16:23
ignasaelkner: no, not really, i am not packaging these eggs, and i don't really know what CanDo release plans are ...16:26
ignaswhat i know for sure16:26
ignasis that this egg is the most up to date "release" egg16:26
ignasand i know that when the next release egg will come out16:26
ignasit will be in a different place16:26
ignasso you will not get it automatically16:26
ignaswhich is why I am not sure whether you should use the url i have posted, even though i know that the egg you need is in there16:27
aelknerLumiere: your thoughts?16:28
*** test123 has joined #schooltool16:28
ignastest123: hi :)16:28
LumiereI would suggest that we try and get a 'release' symlink16:28
th1ahi test123 (Ian).16:28
Lumiere'morning Ian16:28
th1aWe're just about ready to start.16:28
th1aI don't think Ian & Lumiere have met.16:29
Lumiereprobably not16:29
th1aWhy don't you introduce yourselves.16:29
test123thanks for introducing me. I am here in CA trying to wake up16:29
th1atest123: I appreciate the effort.16:30
Lumieretest123: I know that feeling16:30
th1ajfroche: ayt?16:30
* Lumiere has been working for 90 minutes in a video conf16:30
jfrocheth1a, hello yep16:31
th1aSo Lumiere is essentially the project manager for CanDo;16:31
jfrochei am in Italy for Plone conf and sprint16:31
jfrocheuntil tomorrow16:31
th1atest123 is Ian Benson, a researcher at Stanford who is going to be using SchoolTool.16:31
th1aLet's do our regular updates while Ian gets a cup of coffee.16:32
th1aWe'll do updates, Ian, release questions.16:32
jfrochehello Ian16:32
th1aI had a really good time last week at the Open Minds conference in Indianapolis.16:32
th1aIt was the first all K-12 open source conference in the US.16:33
th1aAbout 350 people, without much promotion.16:33
th1aOne really good thing is they brought over a core of good people from Europe (Skolelinux, Extremadura, etc).16:33
th1aSo a lot of people in the US had their eyes opened by that stuff.16:33
th1aI also got Mako Hill a keynote slot, so teachers got to see some of the free software hacker side of things.16:34
th1ai.e., the people who actually write most of this stuff.16:34
th1aI made one particularly good connection with a company in Montreal called Revolution Linux.16:34
th1aThey do a lot of work with schools and in particular have some account integration software written in Python that they plan to open source.16:35
th1aUsing SchoolTool as a front end would make a lot of sense.16:35
th1aI'll be talking to them more about that.16:35
th1aOther than that I plan on getting this new release announced tomorrow or Wednesday at the latest.16:36
th1a(probably not much from the Plone conference...)16:36
th1aPerhaps distracted by the plone conference...16:38
th1aWant to jump in ignas?16:38
ignasth1a: ok :)16:38
jfrocheth1a, yup was the whole week in Plone conf16:38
th1aI'm going to have to leave at the end of the hour to go to the periodontist, btw.16:38
jfrochecan tell you about future feature of Plone :)16:38
ignasth1a: as i am using paste to deploy my instances, i have made REST api available on localhost/api/ so you would not have to use another port16:39
ignasi got (at last) some timetables from lyceum16:39
ignasbut the file was incomplete and now they are hunting for the definitive file16:39
ignasthe format changed a bit, so i had to modify my import machinery a little16:40
th1aSo to get persons via REST you say
th1aThat is a good move, I think.16:40
ignasnot in the release though, as that would be a bit too disruptive imho16:40
ignasi have also refactored import scripts to allow importing timetables for specific terms16:41
ignasso now you can create terms by yourself16:41
th1aWell, it is practical if not the theoretical ideal.16:41
th1a(the REST change)16:41
ignasand just choose the term you want to upload timetables for16:41
ignasoh, and the guy who will be redoing lyceum website contacted me16:42
th1aignas: Did that require a new format?16:42
ignasth1a: no, the format is the same, just the import form is "extended"16:42
ignasit seems that they want to integrate the website and schooltool16:42
th1aOK.  That's just in the lyceum branch now?16:42
ignasso you would only have to log in once16:42
ignasi might add some small features to trunk though16:43
ignasbecause now that you can upload timetables for separate terms16:43
ignasthere is a need to filter sections by terms16:43
ignasas in - "show sections scheduled for term1"16:43
ignasand "unscheduled"16:43
ignaselse you get duplicates16:44
ignassections for the same teacher, same course, different terms16:44
ignasthat's it16:44
th1aDealing with time requires more filtering.16:44
aelknerworking on worksheets16:45
aelknernothing else to report16:46
aelknerother than the cando buildbot failure16:47
th1aAre you going to be working on worksheets this week, too?16:47
aelkneri'll have to get jelkner to try it out16:47
*** th1a_ has quit IRC16:47
th1aWorksheets are multi-page gradebooks, btw.16:48
th1aOK, test123.16:48
th1aYou're up.16:48
test123good morning16:48
test123thanks for the invitation16:48
test123we are now in the fourth year of the stanford tizard project
test123we have a database of elementary teachers and 150 children in experimental schools across England.16:48
test123Jens and I are populating SchoolTool-LDAP as a gradebook for the common national maths curriculum16:48
test123We want to demonstrate the value of this open software development process to the children's math education.16:49
test123Timetable import will be useful as we have 6 classes to load in a week.16:49
test123I am happy to take questions16:49
test123but at this stage we are just getting our test environment16:49
th1aOne thing we need to do is make sure we're pointing Ian to the right branches.16:49
th1aSince there are many right now.16:49
th1aI don't think they want to use CanDo, since their assessment isn't really competency tracking.16:50
th1aAnd they "lyceum" branch has a particular gradebook that is based on a single grade each day.16:51
th1aWhich is also not the right thing.16:51
th1aI don't think.16:51
ignasth1a: single grade each "meeting" not day16:51
th1aignas: Right.16:51
Lumieremaybe the jelkner gradebook branch + ldap?16:51
th1aSomething like that.16:51
ignastest123: what kind of timetable do you have? is it group based or is it individual for every child?16:52
th1aThe "jelkner-gradebook" branch is the one that aelkner is working on, and it is the most developed gradebook of the style I think you need.16:52
test123hi ignas16:52
th1aI would think they're only tracking math sections, right?16:52
*** jhancock has joined #schooltool16:52
test123the time table is for a group of children16:52
Lumierehi jhancock16:53
test123yes we are only tracking math16:53
th1aSo essentially each kid will be in one section (maths).16:53
test123I need to learn more about your data model - but in principle yes16:54
th1aOK.  That should help keep it simple.16:54
test123can I get what I need to know about the model from16:55
th1aWell, there is not too much detail there.16:55
th1aNot there either...16:55
th1aI think you need some more basic background.16:55
th1aIt is all in the source ;-)16:56
th1aActually, the README's in different packages should be helpful.16:56
test123ok... I will parse them and update my requirements16:56
th1aBut beyond that, a course describes a block of curriculum taught in a term.16:56
th1aEnglish 9, English 10, Biology I, whatever.16:57
test123that's fine. There is no real magic in the Primary Strategy...16:57
th1aI figure you probably have a few courses.16:57
th1aAnd then sections are just a group of students, teacher(s), a course, a term and meeting times.16:58
th1aWe just don't usually call them sections in elementary.16:58
th1aBut it is the same as a section at university, really.16:58
test123since we are only working with a single subject this makes sense for primary school too16:59
th1aProbably if you can do this without creating timetables, that will help keep it simple16:59
test123I am not so sure. The bulk of the data is in the form of a time line17:00
th1athe jelkner-gradebook branch is less calendar-centric in the UI, so it works fine without having things scheduled into specific times.17:00
test123what is its unit of scheduling? or do they just have a logical sequence?17:01
th1aWell, it is calendar-centric at this point.17:01
th1aSo you can create the school's overall timetable (when classes start and end).17:01
th1aAnd plug sections into blocks in the timetable,17:01
th1aand then the correct calendar events will be generated.17:02
test123this is all fine17:02
th1aBut right now there isn't a strong connection between doing that and how assessment is done in the gradebook.17:02
th1aEssentially, the gradebook doesn't know what day it is.17:02
th1aAlthough, of course, it could.17:02
th1aIn the future :-)17:03
th1aDoes that make sense?17:03
test123Very. I am happy to go with the existing model and leave it to the users to decide if the features are complete17:03
test123we are only taking 3 data points per child initially17:04
th1aBasically, they'll log in and click on the section they want to assess, and get a gradebook.17:04
th1aThe system doesn't need to know what time the section meets.17:04
test123how much static data can we hold for each meeting?17:05
th1aDescribing the timetable is just a lot of work you probably can and should avoid.17:05
th1atest123: I'm not sure what you mean.17:05
test123I would like to be able to describe the meetings with a sentence of text17:06
th1a"Describe the meetings?"17:06
th1aWhat do you mean by a meeting?17:06
test123Math Weds 9-10 (say)17:07
test123Subject: Fractions17:07
Lumierethat can be the name of the section17:07
th1aDoes that need to be assessed?17:07
Lumiereignas: can a timetable instance have annotations?17:07
Lumiere(a scheduled meeting of a section)17:08
ignasLumiere: timetable - not, timetable events in the calendar - yes17:08
th1aThey are regular calendar events now.17:08
test123thats ok then17:08
ignasyou have a Rich text editable descriptions for them17:08
ignasthough i am planning to add one more field that would be gradebook specific17:08
ignas1 description in the event for the students17:08
ignasand another one seen in gradebook views when a meeting is selected17:09
test123That  would be helpful for bulk loading17:09
ignasfor the teacher17:09
th1aSo you actually have more in mind here than just a gradebook.17:09
test123Yes. The gradebook is the basis of the functionality17:09
th1aYou also want what essentially a planning component?17:09
test123but the ``summative assessment'' that it records -- pass (level x)/fail (level x+1)17:10
test123is not good enough for us to perform  a ``formative assessment''17:10
test123so we need to know what the children have been taught as well as what grade they have achieved17:11
test123Its not so much a plan as a model of the context of the grade17:11
th1aDo you need to pre-load the plans, or do you want the teachers to enter what they are actually doing?17:11
th1aOr both?17:11
Lumiereth1a / test123: are you sure this isn't competency assessment?17:12
aelkneri was going to say17:12
test123we will pre-load17:12
aelknerit sound like what cando is doing17:12
Lumierethe more you talk about this17:12
th1aI think they would need longitudinal tracking.17:12
Lumiereit sounds more and more like competencys17:12
Lumiereth1a: which means what in english17:12
aelkneryeah: longitudes are on maps, right?17:13
th1aMy cat is attacking my hands...17:13
th1aHow often are the formative assessments being performed?17:14
test123every mid term and end term17:14
th1aBut you also want to have descriptions of what should be done in each meeting?17:15
test123the government supplies that17:15
th1aDo you need that in SchoolTool for this to work?17:16
test123I am just proposing that we integrate their descriptions17:16
test123so that we have a common starting position across the several schools17:16
test123It is a nice to have17:16
th1aOK.  This is a wishlist item then, not a basic requirement?17:16
test123i can hold the data externally -- as we are at present17:17
th1aI understand, then.17:17
th1aDid we give you or Jens checkin rights last time around?17:18
th1aIt seems like you'll need to work in a branch.17:18
th1aReally a branch off jelkner-gradebook, I'd think.17:18
test123is the LDAP delta in that line?17:19
th1aNo, which is why you'd need a new branch that combined them both.17:19
th1aUnless someone has a better idea.17:19
test123that's fine17:19
th1aI mean, we haven't merged the LDAP stuff into trunk, right?17:19
th1aWe do need to resolve that at some point in the next six months.17:20
Lumieretest123: you may also want as you research schooltool17:20
Lumiereto look over the cando module to see if it fits your requirements as well17:20
th1aI doubt it will because they need to do multiple assessments of the same requirement.17:21
ignasis jelkners gradebook still in schooltool branch?17:21
Lumiereignas: yes17:21
Lumierejelkner-gradebook branch17:21
aelknerthat's the one i'm working on17:21
ignasthat might make it a bit tricky to work with, because someone will have to do merges into Ian's branch from trunk and from jelkners-gradebook and from LDAP branches17:22
ignasand these won't go through trunk for "normalization"17:22
test123is that not a straightforward thing to do?17:22
ignastest123: doing it once is fine17:22
th1aI was thinking they'd just stay up to date with the jelkner branch.17:22
ignasknowing what changes to merge when branches have been changed is a bit more tricky17:23
th1aaelkner is going to be working on that for a while.17:23
aelknerthat't right17:23
ignasth1a: that's not automatic17:23
th1aI mean, it is inherently a little tricky.17:23
ignasand i'd rather have schooltool.jelkner as a plugin sooner17:24
aelkneryou mean jelkner2007, right?17:24
ignasi mean i will be changing a lot of things in trunk, so anyone who is using a branch of schooltool will have to merge the changes one way or another17:24
th1aWell, the reason I got test123 up at 6:30 is to get you into the conversation, ignas.17:24
th1aSo whatever you think is best.17:25
ignasso naturally jfroche's and lyceum approaches seem to suite better17:25
ignasthe problem is that jelkners gradebook is not in trunk yet17:25
ignasand that we need a bit of work to move schooltool.jelkner2007 to a separate repository17:25
th1aWell, perhaps that could happen sooner rather than later.17:25
ignasi am just waiting for the release17:26
aelknerwhich release?17:26
th1aOur release or aelkner?17:26
ignasschooltool release17:26
th1aWell, it has been tagged, right?17:26
ignasbecause going to schooltool being a namespace package touches jinty too17:26
ignasi guess i could try just doing that on trunk17:26
th1aI think it would be fine now.17:27
ignasok, so i'll look at LDAP branch, namespacing schooltool17:27
ignasand moving of ldap branch to be a schooltool plugin17:27
th1aI guess I'll send an email with my questions about the release packages (i.e., if they exist and where they are).17:28
ignasaelkner: are there many things in your branch that haven't been moved to jelkner2007?17:28
aelknermy branch has a package called jelkner2007 in it17:29
aelknerthere is no jelkner2007 branch17:29
ignasbecause as soon as schooltool becomes a namespace package, i'd like to move jelkner2007 out of the branch, and merge all the stuff in there to trunk17:29
aelknerjelkner2007 is just the package that contains the overrides for making dashboard the default view17:29
aelknerdon't you mean jelkner-gradebook?17:30
ignasyes i know, my question is - are there any things that are in other modules, that should be in schooltool.jelkner200717:30
aelkneri don't think so17:30
aelknerthe only changes i made jelkner-gradebook were to the gardebook package17:31
th1aI'm going to have to bolt to have my gums examined.17:31
aelknerand the addition of the jelkner2007 package17:31
ignasth1a: good luck17:31
th1aThanks for coming test123.  I think it was helpful.17:31
test123it was17:31
ignasaelkner: if that's everything, then it's fine17:31
th1aThanks to everyone else, too ;-)17:31
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:32
aelknerLumiere: what's your eta on getting together woth jinty?17:32
test123ignas: when should Jens and I plan on  a checkout of the merged line?17:33
ignastest123: hmm, tomorrow GMT evening if everything works out well, Wednesday evening if not17:34
test123thanks .. am not sure I am in a fit state to do the time zone arith so I will assume am PST!17:34
ignastest123: what name do you want for your "extensions" branch?17:34
ignasso tizard will be a plugin for schooltool that depends on core schooltool and has all the required stuff enabled17:35
test123agreed... can I get the coffee Tom promised?17:36
ignasyep :)17:36
ignasas much as you want ;)17:36
test123great! looking forward to working with you all  again...  d:)17:37
*** test123 has left #schooltool17:37
Lumiereno eta17:39
aelknerLumiere: does Dave know that this is hanging in the balance?17:40
LumiereI don't know17:40
aelknerI can just see him needing an emergency fix and me not being able to deliver it17:40
aelkneryou should let him know17:41
LumiereI have no idea when I will be available at the same time as jinty17:41
Lumiereand for now17:41
Lumierejuts make it the current alpha17:41
Lumierewe'll deal with w/e else later17:41
Lumiereand now17:41
LumiereI need to go17:41
LumiereI have a call to do17:41
aelknerignas: i just changed cando to use the alpha branch you gave me, and the failures are even worse now17:44
ignasit's not on buildbot yet, is it?17:44
aelkneri haven't checked in the cange to the makefile17:45
aelknershoudl i so that you can see the failures on the buildbot?17:45
aelknerignas: ?17:46
ignasno, you should post me the failures in some way17:46
lisppaste5aelkner pasted "make test failures" at
ignashmm, tar.gz egg seems ok17:54
ignasbut the "egg" eggs is broken17:55
ignasnot sure how to tell the toolchain to use source (develop) egg17:55
ignasok, i have fixed it in the repository17:56
*** jhancock_ has joined #schooltool17:56
ignasbut jinty will have to release a new version of the eggs17:56
aelknerso i should try make update followed by make test again?17:57
ignaswon't help17:57
ignasmeanwhile you should look at your scripts and find out what kind of parameters17:57
ignasyou must pass to the line that downloads schooltool17:57
ignasto prefer development egg17:57
aelkneri don't understand17:57
ignashmm, interesting17:58
aelknerwhat's that?17:58
ignasthere are 2 eggs packaged17:58
ignasone of them the tar.gz egg is a source distribution egg17:59
ignasand it has all the parts needed17:59
ignasthe other egg is .egg and is a binary distribution egg17:59
ignasand it has schooltool.common missing17:59
ignasso if there is a way (i don't know how to do it) to make your Makefile download the source egg18:00
ignasi though " develop"18:00
ignasshould do that18:00
ignasbut apparently it doesn't as you are downloading the broken egg18:00
*** mgedmin has joined #schooltool18:00
aelknerwhat our makefile does is as follows:18:01
aelknerPYTHONPATH=$(PYTHONPATH) $(PYTHON) develop --install-dir eggs -f $(SCHOOLTOOL_NIGHTLY)18:01
aelknercan you tell me what i should change?18:01
aelkneror is this a case for jinty?18:03
aelknerplease advise18:03
ignaslooking at it18:04
ignasjinty can and should fix it by repackaging the egg18:04
ignasi have tried suggesting you to look for a workaround, and now i am looking for an alternative solution18:05
ignasuntil the egg will be repackaged18:05
aelkneri wouldn't know what to do for the workaround18:05
aelkneri'm not egg proficient18:06
aelkneri guess i should look for jinty when he shows up here18:09
*** jhancock has quit IRC18:12
ignashe's not on IRC most of the time, so if you want to contact him use email18:13
ignasseems like  2006.999-2007-alpha1-svn-r725018:16
ignaswas still working18:16
ignas(you had some failures because of zope though)18:16
ignasso you might just change 'schooltool' to 'schooltool == 2006.999-2007-alpha1-svn-r7250'18:16
aelknerthe ISession stuff?18:16
ignasuntil a working alpha will get released18:17
ignasyes ISession stuff18:17
ignasin cando/setup.py18:17
ignasand it should make buildbot use the right schooltool18:17
ignasi think18:18
aelkneryou mean change the schooltool entry in instal_requires to 'schooltool == 2006.999-2007-alpha1-svn-r7250'?18:18
aelkneri'll try18:19
aelknerNo local packages or download links found for schooltool==2006.999-2007-alpha1-svn-r725018:19
aelknererror: Could not find suitable distribution for Requirement.parse('schooltool==2006.999-2007-alpha1-svn-r7250')18:20
ignashmm, are you using the old nightly url?18:23
ignasbecause you should be using it18:23
aelkneri'll change it back18:23
aelknermake update now works18:24
aelknertrying make test...18:24
aelknertrying make ftest...18:24
aelknergetting the ISession errors18:25
ignasthese are yours ;)18:26
aelkneri don't think so18:26
aelkneri mean, we didn't have these errors before18:27
aelknerwe made no change18:27
aelknernow we have these errors18:27
aelknerit's all over the place, too18:27
aelknerTypeError: ('Could not adapt', <zc.resourcelibrary.publication.Request instance URL=http://localhost/++competencies++/treeindex.html>, <InterfaceClass>)18:28
aelknerfor instance18:28
aelknerit seems to not be able to adapt a view class to ISession anymore18:30
aelkneror, i mean, the request to Isession18:30
ignastry 2006.999-2007-alpha1-svn-r723118:30
ignasif it does not work18:30
ignasit's either changes in Zope3 or changes in your code18:31
ignasit might work though because the change that came after changed some session stuff18:32
aelknerit looks like using the earlier revision solved my problem.  could you explain "the change that came after changed some session stuff"18:34
aelknerignas: what did you mean by that?18:36
ignaszope eggs dependencies18:36
ignasi have started depending on zope.session instead of
aelknerand that's when the problems started for me18:37
ignasproblems with ISession - yes18:37
ignasjinty then told me about it in the mailing list18:37
ignasand we branched out the release branch just before these changes18:37
aelknerignas: so the fix to to use that particular version of the schooltool egg should hold us for a while, right?18:41
ignasbut you should switch to alpha releases as soon as you can18:41
aelkneri'll leave that to Lumiere to coordinate with jinty18:41
aelknerbut thanks for sorting this out for me in the meantime18:42
*** jhancock_ has quit IRC19:53
*** ignas has quit IRC20:09
*** test123 has joined #schooltool20:12
*** jfroche has quit IRC20:18
*** test123 has left #schooltool20:34
*** jhancock has joined #schooltool20:43
*** povbot has joined #schooltool21:37
*** th1a_ has joined #schooltool21:49
*** jhancock_ has joined #schooltool21:58
*** jhancock has quit IRC21:59
*** jhancock_ has quit IRC22:04
*** jhancock_ has joined #schooltool22:04
*** mgedmin has quit IRC22:23
*** th1a_ has quit IRC23:55
*** th1a_ has joined #schooltool23:56

Generated by 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!