IRC log of #schooltool for Friday, 2007-08-17

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alvsquezaelkner: yo bro, u here?05:23
alvsquezth1a: tom, how about you?05:24
alvsquezLumiere: jason?05:24
alvsquezi met a university student very interested in free software05:25
alvsquezhis name is jose, and it is he whom i am impersonating presently05:25
alvsquezi was hoping to show him how xchat works05:25
alvsquezbut it would kinda require someone to talk back to us ;-)05:26
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Lumierewho was that05:45
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jelknerpcardune: good morning19:40
pcardunejelkner: morning19:40
jelknerit is afternoon on the east coast, but 10:40 am here in el salvador19:40
Lumieresorry about last ngiht19:43
LumiereI was playing video games with my girlfriend19:43
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sudinfaelkner: hi19:53
sudinfaelkner: I didn't get any reply fron Jeff19:54
sudinfaelkner: I sent him a mail yesterday at the mail address that you had provided19:54
pcardunesudinf: he is here now, jelkner: ping19:54
jelknersudinf: which email did you use?19:57
jelkneri didn't see it19:57 is best19:57
jelknerplease resend if you used that one19:57
jelkneri get *a lot* of spam19:58
jelknerand in my eagerness to delete it i sometimes miss legitimate emails19:58
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sudinfjelkner: I am back21:01
sudinfjelkner: hi21:02
jelkneri hear you were looking for me21:02
jelkneri need to go now21:02
jelknerbut could you please resend the email to ?21:03
sudinfok I will send the mail21:03
jelkneri didn't see it21:03
jelknerif you send it now, i'll wait to confirm that i receive it21:03
sudinf 1 second please21:03
sudinfits a slow connection21:05
sudinfany ways I wanted to work on Doctestquiz21:05
sudinfjelkner: ping21:06
sudinfjelkner: I have sent the mail please check it21:07
sudinfjelkner: thank you21:07
fsufitchpcardune, i'm done with what i was doing21:13
fsufitchand Lumiere, i do realize this is "opening my big mouth"21:14
fsufitchactually h/o a bit, i have to restart my linux session21:14
fsufitchthis one's too cluttered <_<21:14
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fsufitch_gaimok, i'm back21:17
fsufitch_gaimi'm gonna try to see if gaim really fails that much at irc21:18
Lumiereit does somewhat21:19
Lumierebut for just chatting21:19
Lumiereit is fine21:19
fsufitch_gaimanyway, wasup?21:19
Lumierejust pissing the day away with my girlfriend21:20
pcarduneLumiere: you sound so resentful21:20
fsufitch_gaimno <_<21:20
pcardunefsufitch_gaim: so, you know that actions menu that you put up?21:20
fsufitch_gaimwhat about it?21:21
pcardunewell, it needs some help21:21
fsufitch_gaimoh dear21:21
pcarduneI'm trying to look in the code where it is defined21:21
pcarduneah yes, actionsbar.pt21:22
pcarduneso, that little bit of javascript should not go there21:22
fsufitch_gaimin cando.js?21:22
fsufitch_gaimor not at all?21:23
fsufitch_gaimok good21:23
fsufitch_gaimi'll do that right now21:23
fsufitch_gaimalso, i'm working on the help registrations21:23
fsufitch_gaimthey were all screwy21:23
pcarduneand you should put in a condition to see if there is anything to display21:23
pcarduneif there is something to display in the actions menu, then display it, otherwise, there should be *nothing* there21:23
pcardunenot an empty menu21:23
Lumierepcardune: I am unhappy with stuff that happened earlier today21:24
pcarduneLumiere: did you lose some epic online battle?21:24
fsufitch_gaimpcardune: i'll do that too21:24
fsufitch_gaimLumiere: what happened earlier today?21:26
pcardunefsufitch_gaim: it was an epic online battle, you shouldn't press him about it21:26
fsufitch_gaimok >_>21:26
fsufitch_gaimbtw, i won the epic battle with KDE21:27
fsufitch_gaimi.e. i got it to work with compiz21:27
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pcarduneit's like if the koreans lost at star craft against... I dunno, some poor nation where few people have computers and no one plays star craft21:27
pcardune(i hear the koreans are the world champion star craft enthusiasts21:27
fsufitch_gaimoh they are21:28
fsufitch_gaimit's one of their national sports, from what i know21:28
fsufitch_gaimfrom eldar that is21:28
fsufitch_gaimok, so i moved the javascript and made the menu hide if there's nothing to show21:29
pcarduneis the "hiding" in javascript? or tal conditions?21:30
fsufitch_gaimi just did a tal:condition="actions"21:30
pcarduneok, so then it doesn't "hide" but rather, doesn't exist right?21:30
pcardunefsufitch_gaim: then you should also fix the css for that, so it fits in nicely with those other bottom tabs21:31
fsufitch_gaimthe options ones?21:31
fsufitch_gaimwell, what color should i make it?21:31
pcardunethey should also be moved down so as not to overlap into that longer bar21:31
pcardunethe same color21:32
pcarduneas the options21:32
pcardunebtw, i think we are calling them "sub tabs" now21:32
fsufitch_gaimbut then it looks clickable, not dropdown-able21:32
fsufitch_gaimbut they still have id="option"21:32
fsufitch_gaimso i call them options :-P21:32
pcardunefsufitch_gaim: well, make it look dropdownable by sticking a little arrow next to it21:33
fsufitch_gaimoh ok21:33
fsufitch_gaimalso, why is it a problem that they overlap a little?21:33
fsufitch_gaimsince the color is the same, there shouldnt be any trouble...21:34
pcardunebecause the borders overlap there and it looks weird21:34
pcarduneyou should make them look like "tabs"21:34
pcardunelike folder tabs21:34
pcarduneyou could even add in some -moz-border-radius css attributes to make it extra slick for those who are inclined to use firefox/mozilla21:34
fsufitch_gaim;) and a link for those who arent?21:35
pcardunefsufitch_gaim: no21:37
pcardunejust no rounded tabby corners21:37
fsufitch_gaimi was kidding!21:38
fsufitch_gaimi wouldn't do that <_<21:38
fsufitch_gaimunless it's on my website21:38
fsufitch_gaimhow do u use those borders?21:38
pcardunethe same way you use the borders: thing21:40
pcarduneexcept you give it a radius21:40
pcardunein pixels21:40
pcardunelike, 1021:40
pcardune-moz-border-radius: 10px 0px 0px 10px21:41
pcarduneI can't remember the order21:41
fsufitch_gaimi'll figure it out ;)21:41
pcarduneand in firefox3 they are antialiased21:41
fsufitch_gaimi gotta get that!!21:41
fsufitch_gaimdo you know if i can apt-get it?21:41
fsufitch_gaimffx 3, that is21:42
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fsufitch_gaimwhoa cool the borders look awesome21:55
fsufitch_gaimpcardune, btw, the order starts from upper left going clockwise21:55
Lumierepcardune: cando.js would be better22:00
Lumiereif it were static22:00
Lumiereand you loaded smaller non-static js files as needed22:00
fsufitch_gaimLumiere: my actionsmenu javascript is the only javascript in cando.js22:01
pcardunecando.js is static22:01
pcarduneLumiere: and the browser caches files like that22:02
pcarduneso it is ok if they are referenced on every page22:02
aelknerfsufitch_gaim: i saw you made a change to hide the actions menu22:08
fsufitch_gaimwhat do you mean?22:09
fsufitch_gaimoh that22:09
fsufitch_gaimbut, as pcardune says22:09
fsufitch_gaimit's not hide, it's not exist22:09
aelknerthat's for hiding the dropdown, right, not the menu itself22:09
aelkneri see the mouseover and all22:09
aelknerbut there is the issue of whether the menu should appear at all in certain contexts22:10
fsufitch_gaimit doesn't appear when there's nothing to show22:10
fsufitch_gaimthat was my change22:10
pcardunethat is the first step22:10
aelkneri don't see how your change would do that22:10
fsufitch_gaimwhat, the tal:condition="actions"?22:11
fsufitch_gaimif there are no actions to show, don't show anything22:11
fsufitch_gaimit should make sense <_<22:11
fsufitch_gaimand there are only actions when actions are necessary22:11
aelknerwell, check out what happens when you go to Sections, then pick a section, then hit the enrollment tab22:12
aelknerthere's an actions menu there that doesn't make sense22:12
fsufitch_gaimi see22:13
fsufitch_gaimthat's one of the ongoing battles between and view_macros.pt22:13
fsufitch_gaimbecause runs through some cando viewclass, the viewclass suppresses any actions because it knows they shouldnt be there22:14
fsufitch_gaimview_macros functions just like schooltool22:14
fsufitch_gaimAND, the context is a section22:14
fsufitch_gaimso it gives the menu for a section22:14
fsufitch_gaimit doesnt matter what view you're using (index.html or in this case learners.html)22:14
fsufitch_gaimit's always the same menu22:14
aelkneryeah, using the context is definitely not enough in this case22:15
aelkneri'm having the same problem with rendering the submenu22:15
aelknerso the answer is to look at the whole traversal to figure out what needs to be rendered22:15
aelknercould you get pcardune's guidance on how to do that while i work on the submenu22:16
fsufitch_gaimggh, sure22:16
pcardunewell, what does need to be rendered?22:17
pcardunewhat is the problem with what it currently renders22:17
* pcardune goes to start up an instance with updated code22:17
fsufitch_gaimit gives the sections action menu while you're in the enrollment subtab22:18
pcarduneand why is this a problem?22:18
pcardunefsufitch_gaim: ?22:20
aelknerpcardune: follow the path i suggest and tell me that that menu makes sense?22:20
aelknerno ? intended22:20
fsufitch_gaimaelkner said it was a problem, not me22:21
aelknerguys, just look at that menu22:22
aelknertell me it makes sense to have a menu choice, "Add/Remove Members," when you're already doing that22:23
aelknerbesides, that menu is for the admin interface, not the teacher interface22:23
aelknerthat was the whole purpose of the new skin22:23
aelknerto keep teachers away from the admin interface22:23
aelknerunless they click on the schooltool button22:24
aelknerthen it's at their own risk22:24
aelknerand they can't complain about how confusing the interface is like they all seemed to do last year22:24
pcarduneok, so this is good22:24
aelknerwhat is good?22:24
pcardunewe've established that doing crazy things with traversal is besides the point of the problem22:24
pcardunethe problem is that the actions menu is showing up at all period22:25
pcarduneand that is a much easier problem to fix22:25
pcardunenamely, removing it alltogether22:25
aelknerwe're supposed to have a new skin actions menu22:25
aelknerthat would only have actions relevent to the current view22:25
pcarduneaelkner: can you give me an example of said actions?22:26
aelknerso if someone is on the enrollment subtab, there are no actions22:26
aelknerif someone is editing competencies22:26
aelknerthen there is lots of use for an actions menu22:26
aelknerwe have to devide our thinking22:26
fsufitch_gaimfor now, we're using the schooltool actions menu22:26
aelknerand think of the new skin for what teachers can do only22:26
aelknerand they CAN edit competencies22:27
fsufitch_gaimand in its code, and i read it, there is some comment that says22:27
aelknerat last for their own section or course22:27
fsufitch_gaimdisplay action menus in all views of the same context22:27
aelknerwe can create our own22:27
fsufitch_gaimdo we have time?22:27
aelknerwe have to22:27
pcarduneaelkner: so what I'm thinking is, do we really need to have a menu that is sensitive to specific views?22:28
pcarduneor can we stick the context based menus22:28
aelkneri would think so22:28
aelknerthe idea is22:28
pcarduneI think we have established that we need a separate menu22:28
aelknerthe menu gets you from where you are to where you might want to go22:28
aelknerone mement22:28
aelknerthere are three menus22:28
aelknertop menu22:28
aelkneralways there22:28
aelknersub menu22:29
fsufitch_gaimyou're forgetting about breadcrumb menu22:29
aelknerdepends on the choice of top meno22:29
fsufitch_gaim4 menus ;)22:29
aelknerok, but forget breadcrumbs for nbow22:29
aelknerthird menu22:29
aelknerwhen we are in a view that's complex like competencies22:29
* pcardune thinks about going to lunch after this discussion22:29
aelknerthere is no subtab menu that would work22:29
pcarduneaelkner: but are we in a view or a context22:30
aelknerso we need an actions menu22:30
aelkneri think that it's the view that should drive things22:30
aelknerin general it's where you are22:30
aelknerthe url is a combo of context and view22:30
pcarduneok, lets look at an example: competencies22:30
aelknerso really the logic needs to take both into effect22:31
pcardunethere are two views  for just viewing competencies22:31
pcardune1. the classic flat view22:31
pcardune2. the newer tree view22:31
pcardunefor both of these views, we want the menu actions "edit" "and new competency" "and new comeptency group"22:31
pcardunebecause those menu items really have to do with the fact that we are looking at the list of competencies22:31
pcardunenot which view we are using to look at that list22:32
pcarduneso, we could register menu items for specific views22:32
pcardunebut I think we would end up doing a lot of duplicate registrations22:32
aelknerwhat about the idea that you brought up last night22:32
aelknerfor my submenu22:32
aelkneri would register for *22:33
fsufitch_gaimwouldn't it be nicer to make the view registrations override any context registrations for the menu?22:33
aelknerand use logic to know when to render22:33
aelknerlooking at the url22:33
aelkneror inother words traversing the context22:33
pcardunewell, things should *never* look at the url, because that is really brittle22:33
aelknerbut the context is not enough22:34
aelknerwe have all of these views on section for instance22:34
aelknerwe need to render the right submenu/actions menu22:34
aelknerdepending on the view we're in22:34
aelknerbut not just the view22:34
aelknerbut what tab we're in22:35
pcarduneso basically, we need to not use the schooltool_actions menu, have a veiwlet manager for displaying the menu items, and register viewlets instead of menu items22:35
aelknerare you just talking the actions menu for now?22:36
aelknerok, so that sounds good22:36
pcardunein fact, this is how the schooltool actions menu already works, except it does both the schooltool_actions menu (a zope menu) and viewlets22:36
aelknerand we don't need to use schooltool_actions, right?22:37
aelknercan you and filip work on this?22:37
pcardunein fact, we should use in any way we can, as that already does viewlets22:37
pcardunefsufitch_gaim: are you game?22:37
pcardunefsufitch_gaim: I'll help you22:38
fsufitch_gaimok :)22:38
fsufitch_gaimi sorta got lost a bit earlier on...22:38
pcarduneok, *discussion over*, I'm going to lunch, in the mean time fsufitch_gaim, you should look at specifically what I believe is called the ActionsBar and all related registrations and page templates22:39
fsufitch_gaimi'm also trying to work on the help system at the same time22:39
pcarduneI'll be back in a little bit22:39
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aelknerfsufitch_gaim: could you drop the help system for now?22:40
fsufitch_gaimi will, i guess >_>22:40
aelkneri mean, it would be better if you could focus hard on this problem22:40
fsufitch_gaimi figured out how to fix the help btw22:41
aelknerit's a doosey, and one that you will learn much from22:41
fsufitch_gaimthe registrations were screwy22:41
fsufitch_gaimit has to be registered for the context22:41
fsufitch_gaimand for the view22:41
aelknersounds similar to the discussion we were just having22:42
fsufitch_gaimcurrently they were all to IGroupContainer and index.html22:42
fsufitch_gaimnot rly...22:42
fsufitch_gaimi just needed to find ISectionContainer and go.html22:42
fsufitch_gaimit's about the same things as the discussion22:42
aelknerok, well, i'd ask you to shelve that for now in the interest in getting menus to work22:42
fsufitch_gaimexcept the help button doesn't have dynamic contents22:42
fsufitch_gaimyeap, ok22:42
aelknerok, so you'll poke around and learn, and when paul returns he can answer any of your questions22:43
aelkneri need to focus on the submenus22:43
fsufitch_gaimaelkner: do an svn up22:47
fsufitch_gaimi made some css changes so that it's more purty in firefox22:47
aelkneri like the rounded edges on the submenu especially22:49
fsufitch_gaimpcardune's idea22:49
aelknerit helps the eye realize that there is a top menu AND a submenu22:50
fsufitch_gaimi thought it might affect ur work ;)22:50
aelkneractually, there were no conflicts, but thanks22:50
fsufitch_gaimbtw, do you know somebody i could wail on because all of the schooltool source files are executable?22:50
fsufitch_gaimactually, i should ask Lumiere22:51
fsufitch_gaimLumiere: ?22:51
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aelknerhey bnguyen!22:59
bnguyenaelkner: hey22:59
aelknerhow's your summer going?23:00
bnguyenpretty fun23:00
bnguyenhow about yours?23:00
aelkneri'm real busy with cando, but i like it23:00
aelknerwhatcha working on?23:01
bnguyencurrently nothing23:01
bnguyenbut i might start working on the gradebook23:01
aelknerreally?  in what area?23:01
bnguyenit needs to have terms added to it23:02
aelknerpcardune has done much work on the gradebook lately23:02
bnguyeni heard he doesn't want to work on it anymore23:02
fsufitch_gaimwouldn't it be a better idea for you to work on help files?23:03
aelkneron the phone23:04
bnguyenwell, jelkner wants/needs it to have support for terms so that he can continue to use it23:06
bnguyenlunch time23:07
bnguyenbye everyone23:07
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Lumierewhat's up23:11
Lumierefsufitch_gaim: can you drop the _gaim23:11
*** fsufitch_gaim is now known as fsufitch23:12
fsufitchLumiere: lots is up23:12
fsufitchaelkner and pcardune had a chat about the actions menu, if u read the backlog23:13
LumiereI saw23:13
fsufitchand i sorta ended up with the short end of the stick23:13
LumiereI am fine however it ends23:13
Lumiere*sharpens short end of stick for easier insertion23:13
fsufitchthat's bad!23:13
Lumiereif pcardune and aelkner concur23:13
Lumiereand give it to you23:14
LumiereI am not overriding that23:14
fsufitchi wasnt asking u to23:14
fsufitchwtf, i'm still fsufitch_gaim?23:14
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fsufitchbah, stupid local alias23:16
fsufitchapparently i was fsufitch, but was seeing myself as fsufitch_gaim23:17
fsufitchhey, a reason to hate gaim :O23:17
Lumierelol yep23:17
Lumierepidgin's irc support isn't that great23:17
Lumierebut... it wasn't ever meant to replace irssi or xchat23:17
fsufitchthis ain't pidgin23:17
fsufitchit's gaim
fsufitchas long as they don't have a deb repository23:18
Lumiereyou're on ubuntu23:18
fsufitchand you're on...?23:18
LumiereI source compiled it23:18
Lumierebut... on debian unstable23:18
fsufitchi could source compile it23:19
fsufitchi'm too lazy23:19
Lumiereit's upgraded23:19
fsufitchi source compiled other things23:19
fsufitchpidgin is on gutsy23:19
fsufitchbut that's ubuntu_unstable theoretically23:19
Lumieredebian unstable23:20
Lumiereis like ubuntu tribe 623:21
Lumiereall the time23:21
fsufitchubuntu what?23:21
Lumierelate betas23:22
fsufitchi c23:24
fsufitchwhat's with the "simple installation" instructions for cando?23:26
fsufitchthe last change by Bao says Coming soon in August23:26
fsufitchLumiere: is there any good reason for all the source files in the schooltool egg to be executable?23:28
Lumiereno idea23:32
LumiereI'll put kill on my list23:33
LumiereI'll just kill the file23:33
fsufitchwhat file are you talking about?23:34
fsufitchthe install thing?23:34
fsufitchcuz killing the schooltool egg would be bad23:34
fsufitchand bad = worse than me svn removing template.pt23:35
Lumierethe install thing23:35
LumiereI can't touch theeggs23:35
fsufitchok good23:35
Lumierehow does that look23:42
fsufitchi expected something like "FOUR OH FOUR!"23:43
LumiereI think that is better23:43
fsufitchsimple installation? NOT FOUND!23:43
LumiereI renamed the folder23:45
fsufitchi wish pcardune would come back23:46
Lumiereis a really shitty name23:46
aelknerLumiere: when could you, Dave, and myself have a phone consult to discuss the user-centric view of our new skin?23:55

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