IRC log of #schooltool for Wednesday, 2007-08-15

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aelknerLumiere: ayt?01:09
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pcarduneaelkner: hey alan, I just ran the full test suite on trunk on my machine and I get the same result that buildbot does... 1 failure in a cando.journal doctest02:02
pcardunebut now I just did an update, and there is a change, so I'll rerun the suite02:02
aelknerpcardune: yeah, i fixed the journal doctest, so you it should run ok now.02:40
pcarduneI saw that, yay! now we have a happy buildbot :)02:40
aelknerexcept for cando-coverage which I will get with Jason to fix02:40
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aelknerpcardune: btw, i was looking at and related view class, and i can see that it would only work for teachers.02:41
aelkneris this stephan's work?02:42
pcarduneI don't think so02:42
aelknerwho then02:42
aelknerit has traversal plugins and the lot02:42
pcarduneaelkner: well, I created as a refactor of 3 other classes that looked exactly like that02:42
pcarduneoh, let me check that out again then02:43
aelknerpcardune: i don't like the isTeacher contition in the page template02:43
aelkneri think the filter should work by who the proinciapl is02:43
aelknerisTeacher could still be used by courses()02:44
aelknerto determine filtering02:44
aelknerisNeither() would be helpfuil02:44
pcardunewell, filtering is based in group... and checking for group by principal is very fragile02:44
pcardunebased on*02:44
pcardunebecause principal store groups, but only as a string.  And if that group string changes, then filters stop working02:45
pcardunebut how would you propose to do it with the principal?02:45
aelknerwell the view class already looks in the crowd to determine group membership02:46
aelknersee isTeacher02:46
aelkneri just thought i'd use that logic to determine who the principal is and filter accordingly02:47
aelknerright now the filter is only called if the principal is a teacher02:48
aelkneralso, the filter only returns sections related to the user02:48
aelkneri'm not sure that's how dwelsh and jstraw would want it02:48
aelkneri mean, don't we want the authenticated, groupless, user to see all sections to view (only) comps?02:49
pcardunewait, i don't understand the very last thing you said, view (only) comps?02:49
aelknerpcardune: bottom line is i can handle this stuff tomorrow after i've spoken with jason about how they want it02:50
aelknermy guess (only a guess) is that new users who are not part of any group02:50
aelknercan see all section competencies02:50
aelkneri dunno, like a guest02:50
aelknerthey can only view them?02:51
aelknerthis is for our users to say02:51
aelknerit will be easy enough to code when they have decided02:51
aelknerhow is the gradebook coming?02:51
pcarduneI think what we should have is something that tells the user whether they are in an appropriate group or not02:51
aelkneryou mean on the owrap, like next to the logout?02:52
pcarduneI can see it now... the biggest user error is going to be, "I added johnny as a student for the section but johnny still can't see the competencies?!?!"02:52
pcarduneand the solution would be, "well... is johnny part of the student group?"02:52
pcarduneso, if you go to one of those screens where you expect to see a list of related stuff, but you aren't in the student or teacher group,02:53
aelknerthat's why the new skin was supposed to look different for teachers and students02:53
pcardunethen it should say, "you don't seem to be in either the student or teacher group, you must be in one of these groups to see relevant information"02:53
aelknerthat's another idea entirely02:53
pcarduneright, but the truth of the matter is that you don't have to be part of one of those groups to see the newskin, and if you are not in one of those groups, it can be very confusing02:54
pcardune(to look at the newskin that is)02:54
aelkneryeah, that's why different colors/icons was an idea proposed at the new hampshire sprint02:54
pcarduneso, what would go along with that thought, is that people are in neither students nor teachers don't see anything02:55
aelknera message like what you suggest could work02:55
aelknerhow about a big message at the top middle02:55
aelknerNot either TEACHER or STUDENT02:56
aelknerbigger letters than the rest02:56
aelknertop middle is open02:56
aelknerTEACHER VIEW?02:56
pcardunenot all caps though :)02:57
aelknerjust bolder than the rest is all i meant02:57
aelknerNEW USER02:57
pcarduneyeah, that is one idea02:57
aelkneror NEW USER (not teacher of student)02:57
pcarduneno no, NEW USER is no good, because then administrators would have that when they look at the newskin02:57
pcardunerun that by welsh02:58
aelknerthey should have something like ADMINISTRATOR02:58
pcarduneright, but how do you decide if someone is an administrator02:58
aelknerbut then when they are both, which is common, then what?02:58
aelknerthey are a member of the admin group02:58
pcarduneso what do you do with someone who is not the member of any group, like SchoolTool Manager, who has priveldges to the max?02:58
aelknerisAdmin would look just like isTeacher02:58
pcarduneare they "new user"?02:59
aelkneri thought Schooltool Manager WAS in the admin group02:59
pcarduneif we implement "isAdmin" then people will be tempted to make administrative views in the newskin02:59
aelknernot so?02:59
pcardunenot by default I don't think02:59
aelknerhe is a member of the site managers group and i know i didn't put him there03:00
pcarduneah, site managers, but not administrators03:01
aelkneralso, i think irecall seeing that code in the startup03:01
aelknerwhat makes an administator then?03:01
aelknerscratch that03:01
aelknerthe site manager makes him one by adding him to the adminstrators03:02
pcardunein terms of groups? being in the administrator groups... in terms of permissions... not as well defined03:02
pcardunein any case, I think having a bolded teacher/student indicator could be a good idea03:03
pcardunebut I also think it would be good to have that longer message03:03
aelknerwhen they are neither03:04
aelknerpcardune: you didn't answer my question about gradebook.  i'm trying to determine your availabliity03:05
aelknerare you finished03:05
pcardunewhat question was that?03:05
pcardunemore or less, yes03:05
aelknermay i suggest03:05
pcarduneI mean, there will be tweaks... performance improvements03:05
aelknerwe meet with jason tomorrow morning03:05
aelkneraround 10 or 11, your call03:05
aelknerwe discuss these issues03:06
aelknerand you and i devide the work03:06
aelknergiving me the most of course as you still have gradebook tweaks03:06
aelknerand i have more time03:06
aelknerpcardune: what say you?03:07
aelkneri have to run to the store, be back in a couple of hours03:13
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pcarduneaelkner: network outage, and then my network manager crashed03:36
pcarduneand I had to restart03:36
pcardunewhat were we saying?03:36
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aelknerpcardune: you still there?05:44
pcarduneyes, i am back now05:44
pcarduneafter much rebooting05:44
pcarduneand eventually going back to running in a virtual machine05:44
pcarduneaelkner: what were we talking about earlier?05:45
aelkneri was asking you if you could meet at 10 or 11 am tomorrow05:45
aelknerto discuss with jstraw05:45
aelknerwhat we should do with the access to competencies05:45
aelknerfor unauthorized users05:45
pcarduneI don't think there is much to discuss05:45
aelkneror i mean groupless05:46
pcarduneI think it is just up to him to decide05:46
aelkneralso what we discussed as to having something in the top middle05:46
aelknerto id the user's groups05:46
aelknerit's not clear from his security spreadsheet05:47
pcardunewell, I think you should be asking Lumiere about meeting with him tomorrow, and not asking me05:47
aelknerthat's fine05:47
aelknerhe and i can decide together if you're ok with that05:48
pcarduneI don't think I can offer any input beyond what he decides05:48
pcarduneor beyond what we already discussed05:48
aelknerchange of subject05:48
pcardunebut I'll probably be around anyhow if other things come up05:48
aelknerit's really annoying how the calendar view comes up as the default view for the new skin rather than go.html05:49
aelknerthe calendar view is UGLY05:49
aelknerit even overlays some buttons right on top of the logout05:49
aelkneri think it's just a matter of rtegistering index.html for ISchoolToolApplication for our layer05:50
pcardunewell, we might need to fix that css issue in the long run, when someone decides they want to use calendars in newskin05:50
aelkneri'm going to try that out at least05:50
pcardunein the mean time, we were talking about doing a little dispatch dealy05:51
pcardunebut yeah, go ahead and try that out05:51
pcarduneI think the only reason it would not work is if there was a custom traverser on ISchoolToolApplication that mucked with the default... and I imagine that might actually be the case if it is redirecting to calendar05:52
pcarduneunless the index.html view for schooltool does the redirecting05:52
pcardunebut yeah, try it out, it might work05:52
aelknerpcardune: aah, that feels much better.  now the dumb calendar won't come up05:58
aelkneroh and yes, the index.html view schooltool did the redirecting06:01
aelknerbut that's why layers are so cool06:01
aelknerwe can just do it whatever way we want.  yay06:01
pcarduneI just remember working on a zope2 CMS, where every time they wanted to make a custom skin for a client (all the time) they would basically fork the application... yay!06:08
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Lumierehere now16:58
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Lumierehi fsufitch17:51
fsufitchLumiere, i already lost the game17:52
fsufitch*ahem* hi, Lumiere17:52
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aelknerLumiere: who's it going?18:11
fsufitchaelkner, who or how?18:13
aelknerwho is dyslexic for how18:13
fsufitcho yea18:14
fsufitch<_< and ur dyslexic?18:14
aelknerwell, dyslexic is a fancy way of saying i made a typo18:17
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Lumierehi rafaelfeito19:01
rafaelfeitoLumiere: helo19:02
fsufitchLumiere, i'm getting component lookup errors when i try to use the help files19:11
fsufitch  File "/home/filip/cando-trunk/eggs/zope.traversing-3.4.0a1-py2.4.egg/zope/traversing/", line 49, in traverse19:11
fsufitch    return subject[name]19:11
fsufitchTypeError: tuple indices must be integers19:11
fsufitchhave any idea what this is?19:11
Lumiereyea it means subject is a tuple19:20
fsufitchi sort of got that19:20
fsufitchbut it's in zope.traversing19:20
Lumiereusepastebot to send the full trace19:20
fsufitchso i dont know how it got there19:20
fsufitchwait a minute, i'm getting traversal errors everywhere19:21
Lumiereyou broke something gooood19:21
fsufitchapparently not all objects have a "title" attribute19:21
fsufitchthat sucks.19:21
Lumieresome shouldn't19:22
fsufitchok, so i fixed that...19:23
Lumiereand you didn't svn remove again19:23
fsufitchwho knows?19:24
fsufitchi didnt commit yet...19:24
fsufitchLumiere, is there a logical reason that , , and are all empty?19:30
fsufitchor does this have to do with certain two people not sending a certain diff?19:31
Lumierethey never got to cando stuff19:31
Lumierethey just did schooltool stuff19:31
fsufitchi c19:31
Lumiereand I have yet to hear from ignas as to whether any of it was actually useable19:31
Lumiereafaict they're not getting money for it19:31
fsufitch*sigh* so we're without help files?19:31
Lumierewrite em19:32
Lumiereor we can find someone from the list of acceptable people19:32
Lumiereto write it19:32
fsufitch:O, to put it plainly19:32
fsufitchwhat list of acceptable people19:32
Lumierefsufitch: poke eldar19:32
Lumiereor I can19:32
fsufitchi was gonna do it enyway19:32
Lumierewant me to get him on irc?19:32
fsufitchi'm telling him to get on irc19:33
fsufitchhe ain't responding19:33
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fsufitchoh cool he did respond19:33
Lumiereor is he ;)19:33
fsufitcheldar, hello19:33
eldarfsufitch: what's up19:34
fsufitchthe reason i aclled u is that i suddenly realised that i was making the help button work for pages etc., but there's no help files in sight19:34
fsufitchLumiere suggested getting someone from "the acceptable list" to work on help files19:34
fsufitch*what's the acceptable list?19:34
eldarno idea19:35
eldarthat is some ambiguous language19:35
fsufitch<Lumiere> or we can find someone from the list of acceptable people19:35
eldarwait, didn't robbie and bao19:36
eldardo anything?19:36
fsufitch*deep breath*19:36
fsufitchso they wrote help files for the schooltool interface19:36
fsufitchnothing for cando19:36
fsufitchand Lumiere says he is yet to hear from ignas about the files' usability19:36
eldari see19:37
fsufitchso, in short: no19:37
fsufitchis there anybody without anything to do?19:38
fsufitchand anybody meaning somebody who has enough brains not to write to the schooltool egg?19:38
eldaryou can contact bnguyen and wjohnston19:39
eldarbut i think they're working on osmething19:39
eldarhmm ... linda wrote a lot of help files19:39
eldari just don't know where they are19:39
fsufitchneither of them's online19:39
fsufitchthis help file stuff sounds like a black hole19:39
Lumierefsufitch: something like that19:42
Lumiere(read first, say back second ;))19:42
LumiereI read backlogs before saying that I am back19:42
fsufitchoh lol19:42
fsufitchi dont <_<19:43
LumiereI've been on IRC for 6 years....19:44
fsufitch.5 years here <_<19:45
fsufitchwhat about those help files?19:45
Lumierejust link it up19:45
Lumiereif there's nothing there19:45
Lumierethere's nothing there19:45
Lumierethat won't be your issue for now19:45
Lumiere(although it might become yours if it has to)19:45
fsufitchthe issue is that the structure provider doesn't seem to be finding any help when it's supposed to find some19:46
Lumiereyou may need to put a basic pt file into those help files19:47
Lumiereso that there is something for the renderer to do19:47
Lumierebut aelkner or eldar can answer that better ;)19:48
aelkneri don't know from the help system, but i think that Lumiere is right in directing you to mock up the help pt files19:49
fsufitchright now the .pt files just have a blank line in them19:49
aelknerso put something in them19:49
aelknerit doesn't matter what19:49
aelknerjust so you know you got to them19:50
Lumiereor even copy a schooltool help file19:50
Lumiere(check th1a's commits to find one)19:50
Lumiereso you have the basic looks of something resembling a help file19:51
fsufitchmight there be a problem with all help files being registered as for=""19:54
fsufitchaelkner, ping?19:54
aelknerwhy not register them for * for now19:55
fsufitchuhoh, that would turn out bad19:56
fsufitchwouldn't it find multiple files for each topic?19:56
aelknereldar: who started the work on the help system?20:02
fsufitchaelkner, robbie and bao20:02
fsufitchbut they dies20:02
fsufitchfiguratively speaking of course20:03
aelkneryou could still ask them for help20:03
aelknereven if they don't do the work, they could explain things20:03
aelknereldar: ping20:03
fsufitchi dont think so20:03
fsufitchthey're the ones who edited stuff in the schooltool egg20:04
Lumiereaelkner: they didn't do anything quite right20:07
aelknerwhere is that eldar character anyway20:07
Lumiereidle 25m20:07
aelkneri can't address help right now20:07
aelknercould we have fillip work on something that i noticed?20:07
Lumiereyou control who does what20:08
aelknernamely, the css for when you login is different than when you are not logging in20:08
aelknerthe font size seems different20:08
aelknergo to the new skin and hit the home button20:08
aelknerthen hit the login button20:08
aelknernote the difference in font sie for the tabs20:09
aelkneris that by design?20:09
aelkneri don['t think the user woul'd understand20:09
aelknerLumiere: ?20:13
aelknerfsufitch: do you see what i mean?20:15
fsufitchaelkner, i think it's a discrepancy between the stylesheets for and template.pt20:15
aelknerdo you think you could resolve it?20:16
fsufitchi'll do it right after i figure out this stupid help file thing20:21
aelknerok, thanks20:26
th1aWhat's the question?20:27
Lumieregot ice cream20:27
Lumiereand i dunno20:28
* th1a has returned from his constitutional.20:28
Lumierefsufitch may have questions about how help works20:28
aelknerth1a: do you have any idea why students is not configured as a crowd in schooltool.securitypolicy?20:28
aelknerthe crowd class exists20:29
aelknerit's just not cnfigured20:29
th1aaelkner: I do not know.20:29
th1aOther than SchoolTool doesn't need it yet.20:29
aelkneris ignas in this week?20:29
Lumiereaelkner: most schooltool instances... students don't get logins20:29
Lumieretoday is a holiday iirc20:30
th1aignas is on vacation.20:30
Lumierea well deserved vacation20:30
aelknerwell, i added the crowd to the new skin config for now20:30
th1aLumiere: I think I take it for granted that he got along well with the interns.20:31
aelknerhe gets along well with everybody cause he's cool20:31
Lumiereth1a: there weren't any absolutely horrible interns20:32
Lumiereand I think he knew that before anything got out of hand20:32
fsufitchLumiere, i wasn't a horrible intern?20:32
Lumierethat I'd have beaten the crap outta them20:32
aelknerLumiere: my next commit is going to the new skin usable by only teachers and students for now, ok?20:32
Lumierefsufitch: you're juts a hack20:33
Lumiereaelkner: ok20:33
Lumierewait... you're a hack OF a hack XD20:33
Lumiereth1a: I think I take it for granted that there are interns with as twisted a sense of humor as I have20:33
fsufitchthat doesn't make any sense20:34
Lumiereyes it does20:34
Lumiereyou took a hack20:34
fsufitchto you maybe20:34
Lumiereand added a hack to it20:34
fsufitchoh, yea that's me ^_^20:34
Lumiereuh huh20:34
th1aLumiere: I wasn't so much commenting on the quality of the interns as the idea that we can just fly a Lithuanian developer over to work with a bunch of US kids.20:35
th1aWithout expending any energy whatsoever to acclimate them to each other.20:35
Lumiere(mmmm free ice cream)20:40
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Lumierehi Spec21:08
Lumiereth1a: is my topic change ok with you21:11
th1aUh... I was wondering about that.21:11
th1aIt is a little harsh.21:11
Lumiereth1a: well, there is noone here that can help with it21:11
th1aI can't say I'd lead with "SchoolTool 0.11.4 is unsupported."21:11
Lumiereit's the only thing there that's for users21:12
th1aCould you, say, move it down in emphasis.21:12
th1aLike, to the end of the topic rather than beginning.21:12
th1aPlus it isn't literally completely unsupported.21:12
Lumierethat's the bottom of user emphasis stuff21:12
th1aJust, you know, mostly unsupported ;-)21:13
*** Lumiere changes topic to "SchoolTool development | SchoolTool 0.11.4 is no longer being developed and has very spotty support - new trial release coming in Ubuntu Gutsy | IRC logs at | Dev meetings Mon, 13:30 UTC (15:30 EET) - CanDo Dev meetings Mon, 14:30 UTC (10:30 US/Eastern) | Use for pasting"21:13
Lumierehow about that21:13
th1aYou know, I don't really think it is necessary.21:14
*** Lumiere changes topic to "SchoolTool development | new trial release coming in Ubuntu Gutsy! | IRC logs at | Dev meetings Mon, 13:30 UTC (15:30 EET) - CanDo Dev meetings Mon, 14:30 UTC (10:30 US/Eastern) | Use for pasting"21:19
Lumierethat it? :)21:21
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Lumierehi pc21:22
pcardunehi Lumiere21:32
th1aLumiere: That's fine.21:32
th1aLumiere: We don't need to trumpet our problems.21:33
fsufitchpcardune, a little question21:37
fsufitchhow does the <help:register> in zcml work?21:37
pcarduneI don't know off the top of my head.  But there are plenty of examples in the source code... I think it is pretty straight forward21:38
fsufitchthing is, the registrations for the newskin all haave  for=""21:39
fsufitchdoesn't that cause trouble?21:39
pcardunewhat kind of trouble would that cause?21:39
pcarduneI mean, the trouble might be that you only get the fun little help button when looking at a group container...21:40
pcarduneand It might be nicer to have those registered on objects that are actually relevant to the test in the help21:40
fsufitchso i tried changing it to for="..interfaces.ISectionView"21:40
fsufitchbut it doesn't really do anything21:40
fsufitchit doesn't find help files and doesnt display the help buttn21:41
fsufitchfor /sections/go.html that is21:42
pcarduneyou should use schooltool.course.interfaces.ISectionContainer21:43
pcardunebecause that is what "sections" is21:43
fsufitchyeah, but would it display for the go.html?21:45
fsufitchbecause there's already a schooltool help file registered for schooltool.course.interfaces.ISectionContainer21:45
aelknerpcardune: thanks for helping with this as i wasn't involved with the discussion21:46
pcardunefsufitch: does the go.html view even implement ISectionView?  mabe it is possible to register the help page for a specific view class... I would see that as being the best option in any case21:48
pcarduneaelkner: your welcome, although I'm not sure what I helped you with?21:48
fsufitchit does implement isectionview21:48
aelkneryou help fillip21:48
fsufitchi was bothering aelkner earlier :)21:49
aelknernot really21:49
pcardunefsufitch: hmm, well, try registering it for that specific view class21:49
pcardunefsufitch: And I wonder if the help system supports layers21:49
fsufitchit complains because it can only be registered for an interface21:49
pcarduneif it doesn't, we are definitely going to want it to...  But that would be a question for ignas21:50
Lumierewho is on vacation21:50
fsufitchmy luck21:50
pcardunefsufitch: this just means you have the opportunity to delve into the schooltool help system, and how the zcml registrations work (something even I haven't looked at yet)21:51
fsufitchi like it how you say "even I"21:51
pcarduneyeah, it makes it sound like I know what I'm doing :)21:54
Lumierepcardune: you don't...21:54
pcardunevery important for the "lead developer" to sound like21:54
Lumierewhere's all my money going then XD21:54
Specto me.21:55
Specyou just don't know it yet. ;)21:55
pcarduneLumiere: it's kind of like the lottery21:55
fsufitchpcardune, the ISectionContainer registration works, but not in sections/go.html21:59
fsufitchin sections/index.html21:59
fsufitchi g2g22:00
fsufitchi'll ttyl22:00
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LumiereI am off too22:05
LumiereI got a mother to pick up in 20 minutes at dulles22:06
aelknerbut you said you have a view of dulles, so it shouldn't take you 20 minutes :)22:07
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