IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2007-06-12

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jelknerglyph: hi!20:43
jelknerlooks like george is here and you are here20:44
jelknerso we could start early20:44
jelknergpaci_: george, u here?20:44
gpaci_jelkner: Yep.20:44
*** gpaci_ is now known as gpaci20:45
jelknerglyph signed in, but he must have stepped away...20:45
gpaciemacs just reminded me about the 14:00.20:45
jelknergpaci: did the boss give the ok for saturday?20:45
th1ahi jelkner.20:46
jelknerth1: hi tom20:46
gpaciYeah, I thought I sent you a private message to that effect.  11ish.20:46
jelknerjust got back from a lunch with dwelsh and Lumiere20:46
jelknerdidn't see it20:46
gpaci12:01 PM.  Perhaps private chats aren't persistent.20:46
jelknerthey aren't20:47
glyphHi :)20:48
gpaciWe should do a pika-pika animation after the sprint.20:48
gpaciAloha, glyph.20:49
jelknerok, here is what i need to know:20:49
jelkner1. what time will you folks be available on saturday?20:49
gpaci11ish.  EST20:49
jelkner2. what should the goals be for the interns20:49
jelkneri can also provide an update on what i've done since last month20:50
gpaciWell, we'd like them to be able to actually do the work.20:50
gpaciSo they need (1) better Python 5k177z, and (2) a better understanding of Lore.20:50
jelknerok, the "they" has/will change20:51
jelknersince neither mounika nor mary were real familiar with python, i've asked stephan drodge to work on lore20:51
jelknerstephan took an AI course at school this past year taught in python20:52
jelknerhe says he knows python well (i'll let the two of you be the judges)20:52
jelkneri think he will have the background and skills to be successful with this project20:52
glyphI am not really sure about my availability this weekend; I'm likely to be on the road between Boston and New York for a good portion of it, unfortunately.  Most likely I'll be around in the mid-late afternoon.20:53
jelkneri can't have 3 people work on it, so either mounika or mary will be moved to ZIS/SIF20:53
jelknerglyph: can you make it online by 2 pm, say?20:54
jelkneror 3 pm?20:54
jelknerit looks like we will have to close up at 4 pm20:54
glyphWhen do you get started?  Maybe I can get online before I leave instead.20:54
jelkner9 am20:54
jelknerthat might work best20:55
glyphLet's say I'll be there from 9-noon20:55
jelknerand george can relieve you20:55
glyphI'll update you if I need to change, though; I can't really postpone this trip :-\20:55
jelknerbut please let me know soon20:55
jelknerin the interest of project moral, i don't want them to come in if you won't be there20:56
jelknergpaci: can u be in by noon?20:57
jelknerstephan seems very confident of his skills20:57
jelkneri think we can build on that ;-)20:58
glyphThat's good20:58
gpaciYes, adolescent males always have an accurate self-assessment.  I know I did.20:58
jelknerquestion: does it make sense to keep another intern on the project with the understanding that they would start out working on documentation?20:58
jelknerwe need the how-to updated as things are fixed/added20:59
gpaciWhich intern do you hate?20:59
glyphjelkner: Is he familiar with open source contribution protocols / procedures, or just Python programming?20:59
jelkneri actually *like* doing documentation!20:59
jelknerjust python20:59
jelknerthen again, i'm a teacher (those that can't do, document)21:00
gpaciAre there really 20 hours of documentation work?21:00
jelknerprobably not, but hopefully the other intern will be learning python and contributing in other ways as well21:01
jelknerone of the top goals is adding LaTeX support to your book extensions, so learning LaTeX will come in handy21:02
glyphI'm a bit confused as to where I fit in here :).  How much of the project is lore, how much is other stuff?  When you're talking about documentation, is it schooltool documentation, or lore documentation?21:02
jelknerlore documentation21:03
jelknerthe how-to does not even mention the book extensions at this point, for example21:03
jelknerglyph: i can give you 2 interns, if you can keep them busy21:04
jelknerthat's how you fit in21:04
glyphjelkner: I can definitely generate work as fast as you can throw people at me :)21:04
glyphwell, I guess if you had 100 interns I don't know if I could keep them busy on just Lore...21:05
glyphThe biggest lesson from last time, though, is that we should decide on a goal specifically for the sprint ahead of time21:05
jelknerok, so what is the goal for saturday?21:05
jelknerand before getting to that, you didn't answer my question yet about 1 vs. 2 interns.21:06
jelknerdoes it make sense to have someone who is still learning but can contribute to documentation, etc?21:06
glyphI think so.  As a goal for the sprint for that intern, as you mention, there is no documentation for the book extensions21:08
jelknerand the goal for stephan is to begin working on LaTeX?21:08
jelkneror didn't you ask them to add tests first?21:09
glyphI did ask them to add tests.  We did a little work last time, but it was mainly focused on getting them familiar with the tools.  It would be a _huge_ help if stephan could be familiar with writing and running tests with trial ahead of time.21:09
jelkneris there a web site somewhere I can send him along with instructions to "read over this before saturday"?21:10
jelknerthey finish finals on friday21:11
jelknerso by saturday their summer break begins21:11
jelknerthey will now have plenty of time to work on the project21:11
jelknerare are expected to work 20 hours per week21:11
jelkneris there anything else?21:12
* jelkner is waiting for web site instructions...21:13
glyphSorry, trying to find the documentation :)21:13
glyphSpeaking of things that need to be better documented :-\21:13
glyphthat is a fun link21:14
jelknergot it21:14
glyphIt's still a work in progress, but if his python skills are as strong as he claims, it should be no problem to follow :)21:15
gpaciFortunately, the Lore interns don't have to worry about scheduling and deferreds.21:15
jelknercool, we can put him to the test21:16
jelknerok, is that it?21:16
gpaci"What else floats?"21:16
gpaciActually, I'm still not totally clear what I'm doing Saturday: helping them write tests?21:16
gpaciHelping them write docs?  Giving them info?21:17
jelknerglyph: writing tests, first, yes?21:17
jelknerthen starting to look into adding LaTeX support?21:17
jelknerusing a TDD approach21:18
jelknerso we don't have to go back and add the test for the new stuff later21:18
glyphgpaci: My broad goal for this weekend is to get them to the point where they can confidently contribute patches against Twisted and put them into review21:18
glyphjelkner's summary is correct :)21:18
gpaciOK.  I'm a little fuzzy on that, myself.21:19
glyphgpaci: We need some test coverage for existing lore functionality first; otherwise patches for new functionality will immediately get bogged down in "why didn't you test the functionality XYZ that you changed" comments21:19
glyphI don't have a more specific goal because I'm not sure how to scope the work for Stephan until I have heard more directly what he's capable of; it might be as simple as contributing some doc fixes using "svn diff", creating tickets in the tracker, etc, but ideally we can have some simple code changes that add tests that get reviewed and merged in the same day21:20
gpaciWell, one big dumb way is to capture the existing source and generated documents from Twisted itself.21:20
glyphgpaci: you mean verify that the output as it is now matches the output from those inputs in the future?21:21
gpaciYes.  End-to-end functional/customer tests.21:21
gpaciThen we can see if there are any more features that that doesn't exercise.21:21
gpaci(This is one place AOP would actually come in handy.)21:22
gpaciI can show them how to check for coverage by intentionally messing up statements.21:23
glyphI don't think that would be too helpful.  Regardless of its merit qua testing, it won't get the interns more familiar with the parts of lore that need changing, and it will certainly not satisfy the other reviewers on twisted-dev ;)21:23
glyphgpaci: Have you used trial --coverage ?21:23
gpaciNope.  Didn't know it existed.  That'd be the way to go.21:24
gpaciSo let's try to sketch Saturday's testing strategy:21:25
glyphIntentionally messing up statements is still a good introduction to TDD though21:25
gpaci(Yeah; I'm always thinking about teaching technique, as opposed to making progress :-) .)21:25
gpaciStep 1,000: start putting together a patch at 3:00.21:26
gpaciStep -1: Give interns a taste of LaTeX beforehand: , e.g.21:27
glyphSo, the nice thing about lore is that it is totally full of bugs21:27
gpaciYou guys can fill in the in-between steps.21:27
gpaciYay practical experience!21:28
glyphA good introduction to (TDD + maintenance) is writing a failing test for one of those bugs - all we need is to find one :)21:28
glyphThe first one I can find is
glyphalso a good example of why the current output should not be used for testing purposes ;-)21:29
jelkneri'll be using lore all summer for new curriculum materials21:29
jelknerso i'm sure i'll help find bugs21:29
glyphI also want to get the other Twisted devs excited about having the interns helping out so I can spread the mentoring around a bit, and nothing gets that group more excited than fixes to long-standing bugs :)21:30
glyphgpaci: do you think that #812 would make a good sample bug?21:31
gpaciThe part about letting the author suppress index links, yes.21:31
gpaciAlthough the sample doc pointed to has also moved.21:32
gpaciFound it:
gpaciIs there a better example?  And where's the Lore source and the command used to generate this (/it)?21:34
glyphI assume that the command to do the generation phase would be simply 'lore' in the doc/core/howto directory21:37
gpaciSo it would pick up the template from there.21:37
gpaci("locate doc/core/howto" was a stupid thing to type...)21:37
jelknerok, so i will summarize this discussion (as soon as it is finished) and send it out as an email.21:38
jelkneri have to go to a job related meeting in a few minutes...21:39
jelknerbut i can check back and read the log21:39
glyphThe only thing I have to add at this point is that I'd like to make sure that the tests we have the interns writing are as fine-grained as possible, since hopefully we will be replacing various units as the summer goes on21:39
glyphand it would be good if we can only modify the tests affected by the area in question as we do that21:40
gpaciSo Saturday: (1) interns learn to submit Twisted patch, (2) interns learn how to run Lore, (3) interns tackle a sample bug, (4) interns tackle other bugs, TDD, fine-grained.21:40
glyphSounds good :)21:40
jelknermuy bien!21:40
glyphBefore then, let's exchange some emails so I can answer any questions Stephan has about the contribution process21:41
jelkneri'll have an email out later today21:41
gpaciSounds like we're done for now.21:41
glyphand hopefully have him ready with a development environment and tools by saturday morning :)21:41
glyphNo problem!  Thanks again for encouraging these contributions to lore! :)21:41
jelknercya saturday...21:42
glyphsee you then ;)21:42
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