IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2007-06-11

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* th1a shuffles some papers around.16:31
th1aHi jfroche, ignas, Lumiere, jinty16:31
th1aLumiere: Want to start us off?16:32
Lumierewe have our last 'learning sprint' this weekend16:34
Lumiereintership starts a week from thursday16:35
jfrochewhat's intership ?16:36
Lumiereintern developers16:36
LumiereCanDo's developers are a combination of hourly and stipended developers16:37
Lumieredevelopers on stipend are interns16:37
* Lumiere notes that he doesn't have anything to do with that part16:37
th1aLumiere is their customer.16:38
Lumieredwelsh is the customer16:38
th1aYou represent dwelsh in this case.16:38
LumiereI act as the day to day organization and infrastructure16:38
th1aLumiere: Anything else?16:39
Lumierenot really16:41
jfrocheI merged with trunk & still working on the views for the grade book.16:41
jfrocheI didn't succeed to get an apointment last week at the school with the guy in charge of the actual grade book but we meet on thursday or friday.16:41
jfrocheAbout attendance I didn't looked further but as I said earlier it isn't so different from schooltool one except for some security things ("delegate" student can encode attendence).16:42
jfrocheI will work on this as soon as we agree with the guy about the grade book and the report related to it.16:42
jfrocheAbout Nicolas, he told me he is less busy now and what i would like him to do is help me to translate the missing things in the "in production" instance of schooltool16:43
jfrocheWe plan to meet this week or next week16:43
th1aAh... that reminds me.16:43
th1aA general point: we need to transition to having more control over who does translations on Rosetta.16:43
th1aI'll work on that.16:44
jfrocheat the moment i put the same system as ignas16:44
jfrocheas we didnt have search in translations16:44
jfrocheand as like that , i can get directly the translation viewable in the instance16:45
th1aThat makes sense.16:46
jfrocheand Nicolas is speaking with politics in brussels for other funding on schooltool16:47
th1aAh.  Good.16:47
th1aI was beginning to feel like Nicolas had dropped off the face of the earth.16:48
jfrocheit seems that he got busy during the year & took to much things at the same time16:48
jfrochenow he has less teachings i think16:48
th1aIt happens.16:48
th1ajfroche: It seems like the biggest issue overall is just keeping in touch with the school.16:49
jfrocheyep mainly now with the exams but after that it seems that he (the guy in charge) told me it would be more easy to look closer at all this16:51
th1aOK.  Good.16:51
th1ajfroche: Anything else?16:51
jfrocheand i (with Nicolas's help) need to attract them to use schooltool functionalities16:51
jfrochetranslation helps16:52
jfrocheeuh nothing else for now16:52
th1aYes, translation will help ;-)16:52
th1aThanks, jfroche.16:52
ignasas i am not getting replys to my email, and the phone is turned off, i will be paying lyceum a surprise visit tomorrow16:53
ignasit might be that Bronius Skūpas is in some other country of course ...16:53
th1aAch.  Good idea.16:53
ignasin which case i will try talking to my mother as she is a Computer Science teacher too, and might be able to help me with reports16:54
ignasCS program in schools is one of the most complicated16:54
th1aI'm afraid that it seems like in the general case for this kind of project it seems like the procedure should be:16:54
th1a* start by finding some really motivated schools;16:54
th1a* use programming tools that are really widely known so you can get decent developers wherever the schools are.16:55
ignasyes, totally my bad :( i should have thought about that earlier, as when you think about it - if the school has nothing to lose, the motivation is not such big ...16:55
th1aThe relationship with schools is just particularly hard.16:55
ignasi mean any US school that is using PowerSchool16:55
ignashas way more to gain from schooltool16:56
ignasand would be quite more interested from the finance side16:56
ignasas i need more information to work on attendance/gradebook... last week i worked on the scholl year switch heavily16:56
th1aWell, it is hard to do this with a school that has a LOT to lose if we fail... although perhaps that is the pressure that everyone needs.16:56
ignaswell - the school at least must *need* the system16:57
th1aThis may be true.16:57
ignasnow i have a quite good plan on how school year switch should work and have started spiking on it16:57
th1aAh!  Tell us about it.16:58
ignasi have considered doing it in one of these ways:16:58
ignasSchoolYears as containers, move old objects from trunk to the schoolyear, hack traversal to schortcut to the current schoolyear.16:59
ignasArchival - have archive for every old school year, so all the current data stays in the root application, when archiving - you move all the archivable objects to the archive, and add new ones.17:00
ignasand the last one17:00
ignasHaving school year objects related to the base content objects, while keeping everything in their original containers.17:00
ignasOld data would be hidden by rigging into container iteration functions and relationships.17:01
ignasI am going it to do with all the data being kept in the same containers. As with a sane namechooser it will work quite well.17:02
ignasand will not require that many significant changes to the way objects are being accessed at the moment.17:02
LumiereCanDo could use this as well17:02
ignasCanDo will use this, sooner or later17:03
th1aThat sounds pretty close to what Stephan and I had decided, except just using catalogs.17:03
th1aLumiere: Yes, you will certainly need this.17:03
ignasi will have to fix relationships17:04
ignasso they would not show old groups for a person, but would show all persons for an old group17:04
ignassecurity policy - to make all the archived data read only17:04
ignasadd catalogs for all the school yearable data17:04
ignasadd school year switch code for all the schoolyearable data as well17:05
ignasso it's quite a significant piece of work17:05
th1aIt is one of the scarier parts left of the basic SIS.17:05
ignasit's one of the mandatory parts of the basic SIS17:05
ignasi mean - have you seen a SIS that can't do that17:06
th1aOtherwise it is only a 1-year SIS.17:06
Lumiereignas: can you give some background on it?17:06
ignasLumiere: on which part?17:06
Lumierelike a small technical document on how you're doing schoolyears17:06
Lumiereto give to pcardune17:06
ignasnot at the moment17:06
ignaswhen i will have it working17:07
ignasi will look at it17:07
Lumiereyea, when you get a chance17:07
ignasthough - you won't really have it anyway this year17:07
ignasthe feature freeze on trunk is july iirc17:07
Lumierepcardune's gonna need to work on it at some point17:07
th1aWe'll get pcardune up to speed at EuroPython if nothing else.17:07
ignasquite nasty though, the moment we will release trunk, it will be quite outdated already ...17:08
ignasjinty: ayt?17:08
Lumiereignas: that's normal and fien17:08
th1aignas: It is still a big step in the right direction.17:08
jintyignas: yep17:09
ignasjinty: when could we talk a bit about CanDo/SchoolTool plugability on Debian?17:09
jintyer, right now?17:09
ignasafter meeting then i guess, i just wanted to know if you have time for that17:10
jintyok, I should be17:10
jintyaround then17:10
Lumierethe student who is learning packaging should be on soon, I'd like him to sit in on it17:11
ignaswhat kind of packaging ?17:12
Lumieredebian dpkgs17:12
Lumierehe's going to be learning how to do it17:12
ignasi see17:13
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ignasanything else?17:14
th1aI'm going to be at conferences from the 19th to 26th, so I'm going to be getting things ready for that stretch.17:15
th1aAnd I have to do report cards here.17:15
LumiereI'll be gone thursday next week to saturday :)17:15
Lumierevacation! yay!17:15
th1aThat's all I've got.17:16
th1aAny last words?17:16
ignasThey can't hit an elephant from that far....17:16
th1aThank you ignas.17:17
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:17
Lumierethat gravel looked heavy...17:17
th1aHave a good week, folks!17:17
ignasjinty: from what i know - apache has some kinds of dependencies among plugins17:17
ignasthanks, you too17:18
jintyyes, we can have that too if each plugin is a debian binary pakage17:18
ignasi mean in config17:18
ignasas in if you don't have a plugin Loaded17:18
ignasyou can't load or use plugins that depend on it17:19
ignasor something like that17:19
jintyah, that'll be really difficult with zcml17:19
ignaswell - failing is easy17:19
ignasbut at least for sane error message17:20
ignasi want something like:17:20
ignas/etc/schooltool/available_plugins and /etc/schooltool/enabled_plugins17:20
ignasso that the system would know what plugins are available, and either inform the user that he has to17:20
ignasschooltool enable_plugin foo17:21
ignasor even load the dependencies automatically17:21
ignaswould that be sane?17:21
ignasfrom debian standpoint17:21
jintyyeah, that was exactly what I was thinking of, but perhaps available_plugins should be in /var/lib17:21
jinty/usr/lib rather17:21
ignasmaybe in more locations even like /usr/local/lib as well17:22
jintyas it's not really configuration that can be changed by the administator17:22
ignasso that users could install their own plugins from the internet (the brave ones)17:22
jintyyes, user installed packages should be in /usr/local/lib17:22
jintypacages aren't allowed to touch /usr/local17:22
jintybut then, I think we need zcml slug+ zcml slug metadata17:23
jintythe package would drop the zcml slug in /usr/lib17:24
jintyalong with the metadata17:24
ignashmm, now would an error message like "you have CanDo2007 enabled, to use it you must enable a plugin that provides, us.school_foo, and us.school_bar are available, enable one of them."17:24
ignasyep, i was thinking of metadata slugs too17:24
ignasand when enabling the plugin - the real slug would get symlinked to /etc17:24
ignasor something like that17:24
jintyand the metadata slugs would tell you what other slugs you would need17:25
ignasnot slugs, something more high level, i want to leave the option of 2 different data stores providing same interface17:26
ignasso user could enable one of them17:26
jintyat least it would be some kind of provides mecahnism where multiple plugins could provide the same feature17:26
jintyyeah, what you said17:26
ignasok, i'll think of how to do it then17:27
jintycan we perhaps implement this by zcml conditionals?17:27
ignasnot sure about it17:27
ignasi don't know how much control over that we have when loading zcml17:28
* jinty is just wondering about the need to create a whole new infrastructure17:28
LumiereI'll read the rest of this log from work...17:28
Lumiere*goes to get breakfast*17:28
* ignas does not really want to have include guards for all the zcml files in the project though17:28
ignasfoo.browser plugins are quite straightforward17:28
ignasnot sure about data stores17:29
ignason one hand - having more data stores enabled is quite harmless17:29
ignaseven beneficial17:29
ignasbut we would need some way to select an active one17:29
ignasfor browser views though - enabling more than one set of person views17:29
jintyyes, that is a UI issue really?17:29
ignaswould be quite bad17:30
ignasyes - selecting a datastore is an UI issue17:30
ignasviews - can't be selected that easily though17:30
jintyi see17:30
ignasif you register an adapter in Zope, you have it there17:30
ignasyou can't say - turn off this set of views easily17:31
ignasand when i talked to mgedmin about it he said that even though it is possible, it would complicate the system too much to be worth it17:31
jintyI totally agree with mgedmin17:31
ignasnot like typing st_enable be_yearly_reports would hurt anyone17:32
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jintynope, of course there's the dependency issue between slugs17:32
jintywhich could become a real hell with lots and lots of little slugs17:33
ignasi don't see problems with loading of dependencies, what i am worried about is conflicts17:33
jinty(eeew, unless you make the views delegate to some other componenet)17:33
ignashmm, using debian and only allowing you to install be_yearly_reports or us_yearly_reports17:34
jintythe zcml slug metadata could only allow you to install one slug providing feature X at a time17:35
ignasthe dependency resolution application would have to be quite sophisticated though17:36
jintydependency resolution always is17:36
jintyon another topic, zope.optionstorage? what's up with that?17:37
ignasit was not released with zope3.4 as an egg, so i had to package it myself to get schooltool on eggs working17:37
ignasbut as i didn't know what metadata to put there17:38
ignasi made the egg available only for schooltool17:38
ignasit can be quite safely packaged and uploaded to the zope egg repository though i think17:38
jintycan we merge your work into and release it there?17:38
ignaswhat work? i just copied the from some other egg and used it17:39
jintyhaving a tag for the released version would also be nice.17:39
ignasoh and i had to add MANIFEST.in17:39
jintyyeah, unfortunately it means I have to duplicate all that if I want to release it17:40
ignasi can send them to you if you need them17:40
jintyplease, it would help17:40
jintyis it still in the "optionstorage" module?17:40
jintybut the egg is named zope.optionstorage17:41
ignasit is still optionstorage module17:42
ignasbut i added the prefix17:42
ignasnot sure if it's a good idea17:42
jintyI think it needs the prefix, but it should also be in the module name17:43
ignashmm, that should be discussed with Zope3 developers, because it would require them to change their code17:43
ignasnot too difficult for schooltool, so i don't mind17:44
jintyyeah, I'll send a mail to zope3-dev when I get the chance17:44
jintyit was never released, so there's no requirement for backwards compatibility I guess17:45
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