IRC log of #schooltool for Thursday, 2007-05-17

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ACSpikehola schooltool!05:02
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th1ajfroche_: Looking at your document...17:50
jfroche_hello, great tkx17:50
th1aSo "daily work" isn't actually scored on a daily basis, as ignas's daily grades in the journal are, right?17:51
th1a"daily work" == "work other than the exam" ?17:51
jfroche_at this moment the teacher are giving their notes17:52
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th1ajfroche_: This overlaps less than I would have thought with the other "gradebook" work since you're focusing on the reporting and aggregation of scores at the end of a term.17:57
jfroche_that's the way they are working now in fact17:58
jfroche_but pushing them to change that i can ask to the secretary if that would be too much for them18:00
th1aBut in the future Paul & Ignas's gradebooks can be the source of the grades for your part of the system.18:00
th1aI don't think it is really necessary, BUT...18:00
th1aOne thing this implies is that you'll need to put some work into the end of the year / beginning of the next year problem.18:01
th1aWhich is probably the hardest problem on our list.18:01
th1aAnd one ignas seems a bit overwhelmed by.18:02
th1aSo it is something we all need to start focusing on.18:02
ignasno i am not overwhelmed, i just don't know how to do it18:02
jfroche_you mean archiving the notes ?18:02
th1aignas: That's better than overwhelmed.18:03
th1aWell, it is a whole process.  Ending the year, closing the sections, promoting students to the next level, etc.18:03
th1aIt is something Stephan and I spent a LONG time discussing and planning :-(18:03
ignasjfroche_: archiving old notes, persons, groups, terms, timetables, adding new groups, persons, terms, timetables ...18:03
jfroche_right there is a lot to do there18:04
th1aGraduating students.18:04
jfroche_is there a written discussion, analysis for that ?18:04
ignasth1a: but i only saw the planning on the backend side, like how to make it pluggable, extendable etc. as in - how to *hook up* term switch events18:04
ignasnot from what should happen18:05
th1aLike, where should the old section data go?18:06
th1aWhat happens to graduated students?18:06
ignaswhat do we do with groups18:06
th1aWell, one question is:  should we worry about getting old data out of the database entirely for the space of size and performance.18:07
th1aOr is that premature optimization?18:08
ignasi think so18:08
jfroche_creating a new site for a new school year and migrating content from one site to the other would be too much ?18:09
th1aWhen I designed my Zope 2 system, I just used a hierarchy of objects to handle these issues, so you'd have ignas > grades > terms > fall200618:09
th1ajfroche_: I don't see why that would be necessary or desirable.18:09
ignasjfroche_: yes, because you want to hide 1 year of students, and that makes up 25% of persons at most18:10
th1aBut SchoolTool isn't really laid out in that kind of heirarchy.18:10
ignasit is doable for grades18:11
th1aignas: Which?18:11
ignasi am more worried about old sections18:11
ignashmm, lyceum grades ... as i am tied to events18:11
ignasso i am storing the time parameter18:11
jfroche_we would need sections related to a school year, just like groups ...18:12
th1aStephan and I were in the middle of our workflow fetish when we discussed this, so we thought of a section as being a state machine, more or less.18:12
ignaswhat i don't have a plan for are things that get deleted, but have historical information tied to them18:12
ignasas in - course gets split up into 2 different courses18:13
ignasbut you need the old one to access last year information18:13
th1aTwo COURSES?18:13
ignasor - the timetable schema changes18:13
th1aI don't think splitting a COURSE in two is a use case.18:13
ignasth1a: CS into Multi Media and Programming18:13
ignasthe idea is - you might want to delete a course18:14
th1aNo... you should never delete a course.18:14
ignasand what if your Ministry of education tells you that these courses are gone18:14
th1aYou might have an "obselete" flag of some kind.18:14
ignasand this new set for the next year18:15
th1aThen you create new courses, not change the old ones.18:15
th1aThis is an edge case.18:15
ignasi am not talking about assisting in the split18:15
ignasi am talking about deletion of group, person, timetable schema18:16
ignaswe have this "delete" thingie18:16
ignasthat does not play right in the long term18:16
th1aWhen students leave school they should not be deleted.18:16
ignasthis means that no objects related to them should be deleted too18:16
th1aIdeally.  Space permitting.18:17
ignassections, groups, grades, terms, timetable schemas18:17
ignasif we don't have enough space, we could create some "archive" objects18:17
ignasthat would pull all the relevant information in some compact form18:17
th1aRIght.  But that can wait.18:18
th1aI mean, a plan is good though ;-)18:18
ignasbut still, i would like to have some actual use-cases for accessing data from the last year18:18
th1aAn archive object might have the same interface as the container for the actual objects.18:19
th1aignas: Well, you might want to do comparisons of all kinds of statistics, across the school,18:20
th1aor check an individual students attendance records over a period of years.18:20
ignaslooking at a person lifetime18:21
th1aI'm not sure what you would NOT want to allow, if space and performance permit.18:21
ignasstudent in the 4 th grade will have 4 sets of sections18:21
th1aignas: Ideally.18:21
ignasth1a: space and performance is not the problem, i know how to fix these18:21
ignasi don't know how the UI should look18:21
ignasand how should sections/groups/persons behave18:21
th1aIt is mostly a matter of having reasonable defaults.18:22
th1aIn most day-to-day activities, you don't want inactive students coming up.18:22
ignasyes, but a teacher has his calendar for the last year18:22
ignasstudent has his calendar too18:22
ignasand if a teacher click on his sections from the last year, can he see students that belonged to the section?18:23
ignasare students in there if they have already graduated?18:23
ignasif i click on such a person18:23
ignascan i see his groups? sections? grades?18:24
jfroche_and having section related to a school year, group related to a school year, grades related to a school year isn't an option ?18:24
ignasif i click on such a section and go to it's timetable ...18:24
ignasteachers group must copy everyone, student groups should have a life of their own ... karate group?18:26
ignasgrades are related to a section only, timetable schema and term18:26
th1aAt this point, I don't think we should worry about groups being attached to terms.  They're just groups.18:26
ignasbut i don't know if creating a parallel hierarchy in app would work out18:27
ignasth1a: in lyceum, there are these "class" thingies, that are implemented as groups at the moment18:27
th1aI think Stephan believed we could just use catalogs.18:27
th1aThat we didn't need to organize stuff hierarchically.18:28
th1aPerhaps I didn't understand what you were referring to as a "parallel hierarchy."18:32
th1aAnyhow... when I'm talking about "hiding" old stuff, I'm thinking about people doing searches and looking at things schoolwide.18:34
th1aSo I think it would be fine if I, as a student or teacher, go back a year and look at my calendar and click on events from last year.18:35
th1aThat's a feature.18:35
th1aWhat is not a feature is if I am an administrator and I want to access the attendance records of Mr. Hoffman's 3rd period English class,18:35
th1aand when I look for it I have to pick from 10 third period English classes for Mr. Hoffman over the past 10 years.18:36
th1aIt IS acceptable to make me do SOMETHING to indicate, "now I'm trying to do some historical analysis, so show me everything."18:37
ignashmm, so we have Persons and SchoolYears as central objects in the system, the rest should be archivable18:38
ignasSome objects like groups are archived in a special way18:39
ignasthat for example - keeps the original object identical to the archived one18:39
th1aWell, I haven't felt that archiving groups was necessary.18:39
th1aI think if you need to archive something it shouldn't be a group.18:40
ignasTeacher group is important i think18:40
ignasi mean it is nice to know what teachers worked at the school 2006-200718:40
ignasand in lyceum "1a" is special18:40
ignasas well "2a", "3d" etc.18:41
th1aI suppose so.18:41
ignasCourses and Sections are attached to a school year18:41
ignasarchival step copies all the courses to the new school year18:41
ignasyou can delete anything you want in the new school year, you can't modify the old one i guess18:42
ignasperson removal, is a completely different thing though18:42
ignasand is treated separately from normal archival18:42
ignasi'll have to think more about it ;)18:43
th1aThe difference between archiving a group and a section is that some groups would stay the same by default from year to year (teachers) while sections always start from scratch.18:45
jfroche_i am using the groups to say this student is in this class, i would have to start from scratch the groups also18:46
th1ajfroche_: You aren't using sections?18:47
jfroche_yes i do18:47
th1aOh, you're using the groups to define the sections.18:47
jfroche_so does ignas i think18:47
ignasth1a: different meaning, the group in a section thingie18:48
th1aYes.  I got it.18:48
th1aignas jfroche_:  Has this clarified things a bit?18:49
jfroche_a bit but should we work on all this now ?18:50
jfroche_i mean does this have more priority than the grade book ?18:51
ignasjust now i have some ideas about how this can be implemented18:51
th1ajfroche_: Do the grade book first.18:51
th1aBut I'd imagine you'll start bumping into these issues.18:52
jfroche_so or later yes18:52
th1ajfroche_: Overall, I'm happy with your report.18:56
th1aDon't let that be obscured by the subsequent conversation.18:56
th1aI'm just focusing on what I'm most worried about.18:57
jfroche_i was wondering if i should put this somewhere or if it's ok like that18:57
th1aNo, give us some time to discuss these time/archiving issues.18:57
ignasjfroche_: by the way - can you add some explanation of the summary table19:02
ignaswhat these colours mean?19:02
ignaswhat is in the columns?19:02
jfroche_yep there is the maximum score in blue19:03
ignasMaximum possible19:03
ignaswhat P1, P2, P3 means?19:04
jfroche_at the bottom gray/blue there is the sum of the period19:04
jfroche_that's the daily periods19:04
jfroche_daily work periods19:05
jfroche_i explained i think19:05
ignasi just find it difficult to grasp19:07
ignashaving 3 different grades19:07
ignasfor different periods19:07
ignasare these the same periods as the ones in SchoolTimetable19:09
ignasor are you talking only about periods in which the work was graded?19:09
ignasand you can have up to 3 "grades" for your work in the class during the whole year19:10
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ignasjfroche_: you should add Period and Level to the vocabulary19:11
jfroche_ok will do that19:12
ignasas from what i understand these terms are used differently from the ones in schooltool19:12
jfroche_sure, for period mainly19:14
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