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| ACSpike | hola schooltool! | 05:02 |
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| th1a | jfroche_: Looking at your document... | 17:50 |
| jfroche_ | hello, great tkx | 17:50 |
| th1a | So "daily work" isn't actually scored on a daily basis, as ignas's daily grades in the journal are, right? | 17:51 |
| th1a | "daily work" == "work other than the exam" ? | 17:51 |
| jfroche_ | right | 17:52 |
| jfroche_ | at this moment the teacher are giving their notes | 17:52 |
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| th1a | jfroche_: This overlaps less than I would have thought with the other "gradebook" work since you're focusing on the reporting and aggregation of scores at the end of a term. | 17:57 |
| jfroche_ | that's the way they are working now in fact | 17:58 |
| th1a | Right. | 18:00 |
| jfroche_ | but pushing them to change that i can ask to the secretary if that would be too much for them | 18:00 |
| th1a | But in the future Paul & Ignas's gradebooks can be the source of the grades for your part of the system. | 18:00 |
| th1a | I don't think it is really necessary, BUT... | 18:00 |
| th1a | One thing this implies is that you'll need to put some work into the end of the year / beginning of the next year problem. | 18:01 |
| th1a | Which is probably the hardest problem on our list. | 18:01 |
| th1a | And one ignas seems a bit overwhelmed by. | 18:02 |
| th1a | So it is something we all need to start focusing on. | 18:02 |
| ignas | no i am not overwhelmed, i just don't know how to do it | 18:02 |
| jfroche_ | you mean archiving the notes ? | 18:02 |
| th1a | ignas: That's better than overwhelmed. | 18:03 |
| th1a | Well, it is a whole process. Ending the year, closing the sections, promoting students to the next level, etc. | 18:03 |
| th1a | It is something Stephan and I spent a LONG time discussing and planning :-( | 18:03 |
| ignas | jfroche_: archiving old notes, persons, groups, terms, timetables, adding new groups, persons, terms, timetables ... | 18:03 |
| jfroche_ | right there is a lot to do there | 18:04 |
| th1a | Graduating students. | 18:04 |
| jfroche_ | is there a written discussion, analysis for that ? | 18:04 |
| ignas | th1a: but i only saw the planning on the backend side, like how to make it pluggable, extendable etc. as in - how to *hook up* term switch events | 18:04 |
| ignas | not from what should happen | 18:05 |
| th1a | Like, where should the old section data go? | 18:06 |
| th1a | What happens to graduated students? | 18:06 |
| ignas | yes | 18:06 |
| ignas | what do we do with groups | 18:06 |
| th1a | Well, one question is: should we worry about getting old data out of the database entirely for the space of size and performance. | 18:07 |
| th1a | Or is that premature optimization? | 18:08 |
| ignas | i think so | 18:08 |
| th1a | OK. | 18:08 |
| jfroche_ | creating a new site for a new school year and migrating content from one site to the other would be too much ? | 18:09 |
| th1a | When I designed my Zope 2 system, I just used a hierarchy of objects to handle these issues, so you'd have ignas > grades > terms > fall2006 | 18:09 |
| th1a | jfroche_: I don't see why that would be necessary or desirable. | 18:09 |
| ignas | jfroche_: yes, because you want to hide 1 year of students, and that makes up 25% of persons at most | 18:10 |
| th1a | But SchoolTool isn't really laid out in that kind of heirarchy. | 18:10 |
| ignas | it is doable for grades | 18:11 |
| th1a | ignas: Which? | 18:11 |
| ignas | i am more worried about old sections | 18:11 |
| ignas | hmm, lyceum grades ... as i am tied to events | 18:11 |
| ignas | so i am storing the time parameter | 18:11 |
| jfroche_ | we would need sections related to a school year, just like groups ... | 18:12 |
| th1a | Stephan and I were in the middle of our workflow fetish when we discussed this, so we thought of a section as being a state machine, more or less. | 18:12 |
| ignas | what i don't have a plan for are things that get deleted, but have historical information tied to them | 18:12 |
| ignas | as in - course gets split up into 2 different courses | 18:13 |
| ignas | but you need the old one to access last year information | 18:13 |
| th1a | Two COURSES? | 18:13 |
| ignas | or - the timetable schema changes | 18:13 |
| th1a | I don't think splitting a COURSE in two is a use case. | 18:13 |
| ignas | th1a: CS into Multi Media and Programming | 18:13 |
| ignas | the idea is - you might want to delete a course | 18:14 |
| ignas | hmm | 18:14 |
| th1a | No... you should never delete a course. | 18:14 |
| ignas | and what if your Ministry of education tells you that these courses are gone | 18:14 |
| th1a | You might have an "obselete" flag of some kind. | 18:14 |
| ignas | and this new set for the next year | 18:15 |
| th1a | Then you create new courses, not change the old ones. | 18:15 |
| th1a | This is an edge case. | 18:15 |
| ignas | i am not talking about assisting in the split | 18:15 |
| ignas | i am talking about deletion of group, person, timetable schema | 18:16 |
| ignas | we have this "delete" thingie | 18:16 |
| ignas | that does not play right in the long term | 18:16 |
| th1a | Right. | 18:16 |
| th1a | When students leave school they should not be deleted. | 18:16 |
| ignas | this means that no objects related to them should be deleted too | 18:16 |
| th1a | Ideally. Space permitting. | 18:17 |
| ignas | sections, groups, grades, terms, timetable schemas | 18:17 |
| ignas | if we don't have enough space, we could create some "archive" objects | 18:17 |
| ignas | that would pull all the relevant information in some compact form | 18:17 |
| th1a | RIght. But that can wait. | 18:18 |
| th1a | I mean, a plan is good though ;-) | 18:18 |
| ignas | but still, i would like to have some actual use-cases for accessing data from the last year | 18:18 |
| th1a | An archive object might have the same interface as the container for the actual objects. | 18:19 |
| th1a | ignas: Well, you might want to do comparisons of all kinds of statistics, across the school, | 18:20 |
| th1a | or check an individual students attendance records over a period of years. | 18:20 |
| ignas | looking at a person lifetime | 18:21 |
| th1a | I'm not sure what you would NOT want to allow, if space and performance permit. | 18:21 |
| ignas | student in the 4 th grade will have 4 sets of sections | 18:21 |
| th1a | ignas: Ideally. | 18:21 |
| ignas | th1a: space and performance is not the problem, i know how to fix these | 18:21 |
| ignas | i don't know how the UI should look | 18:21 |
| ignas | and how should sections/groups/persons behave | 18:21 |
| th1a | It is mostly a matter of having reasonable defaults. | 18:22 |
| th1a | In most day-to-day activities, you don't want inactive students coming up. | 18:22 |
| ignas | yes, but a teacher has his calendar for the last year | 18:22 |
| ignas | student has his calendar too | 18:22 |
| ignas | and if a teacher click on his sections from the last year, can he see students that belonged to the section? | 18:23 |
| ignas | are students in there if they have already graduated? | 18:23 |
| ignas | if i click on such a person | 18:23 |
| ignas | can i see his groups? sections? grades? | 18:24 |
| jfroche_ | and having section related to a school year, group related to a school year, grades related to a school year isn't an option ? | 18:24 |
| ignas | if i click on such a section and go to it's timetable ... | 18:24 |
| ignas | teachers group must copy everyone, student groups should have a life of their own ... karate group? | 18:26 |
| ignas | grades are related to a section only, timetable schema and term | 18:26 |
| th1a | At this point, I don't think we should worry about groups being attached to terms. They're just groups. | 18:26 |
| ignas | but i don't know if creating a parallel hierarchy in app would work out | 18:27 |
| ignas | th1a: in lyceum, there are these "class" thingies, that are implemented as groups at the moment | 18:27 |
| th1a | I think Stephan believed we could just use catalogs. | 18:27 |
| th1a | That we didn't need to organize stuff hierarchically. | 18:28 |
| ignas | ? | 18:31 |
| th1a | Perhaps I didn't understand what you were referring to as a "parallel hierarchy." | 18:32 |
| th1a | Anyhow... when I'm talking about "hiding" old stuff, I'm thinking about people doing searches and looking at things schoolwide. | 18:34 |
| th1a | So I think it would be fine if I, as a student or teacher, go back a year and look at my calendar and click on events from last year. | 18:35 |
| th1a | That's a feature. | 18:35 |
| th1a | What is not a feature is if I am an administrator and I want to access the attendance records of Mr. Hoffman's 3rd period English class, | 18:35 |
| th1a | and when I look for it I have to pick from 10 third period English classes for Mr. Hoffman over the past 10 years. | 18:36 |
| th1a | It IS acceptable to make me do SOMETHING to indicate, "now I'm trying to do some historical analysis, so show me everything." | 18:37 |
| ignas | hmm, so we have Persons and SchoolYears as central objects in the system, the rest should be archivable | 18:38 |
| ignas | Some objects like groups are archived in a special way | 18:39 |
| ignas | that for example - keeps the original object identical to the archived one | 18:39 |
| th1a | Well, I haven't felt that archiving groups was necessary. | 18:39 |
| th1a | I think if you need to archive something it shouldn't be a group. | 18:40 |
| ignas | Teacher group is important i think | 18:40 |
| ignas | i mean it is nice to know what teachers worked at the school 2006-2007 | 18:40 |
| ignas | and in lyceum "1a" is special | 18:40 |
| ignas | as well "2a", "3d" etc. | 18:41 |
| th1a | I suppose so. | 18:41 |
| ignas | Courses and Sections are attached to a school year | 18:41 |
| ignas | archival step copies all the courses to the new school year | 18:41 |
| ignas | you can delete anything you want in the new school year, you can't modify the old one i guess | 18:42 |
| ignas | person removal, is a completely different thing though | 18:42 |
| ignas | and is treated separately from normal archival | 18:42 |
| ignas | i'll have to think more about it ;) | 18:43 |
| th1a | The difference between archiving a group and a section is that some groups would stay the same by default from year to year (teachers) while sections always start from scratch. | 18:45 |
| jfroche_ | i am using the groups to say this student is in this class, i would have to start from scratch the groups also | 18:46 |
| th1a | jfroche_: You aren't using sections? | 18:47 |
| jfroche_ | yes i do | 18:47 |
| th1a | Oh, you're using the groups to define the sections. | 18:47 |
| th1a | Right. | 18:47 |
| jfroche_ | so does ignas i think | 18:47 |
| jfroche_ | yup | 18:47 |
| ignas | th1a: different meaning, the group in a section thingie | 18:48 |
| th1a | Yes. I got it. | 18:48 |
| th1a | ignas jfroche_: Has this clarified things a bit? | 18:49 |
| jfroche_ | a bit but should we work on all this now ? | 18:50 |
| jfroche_ | i mean does this have more priority than the grade book ? | 18:51 |
| ignas | no | 18:51 |
| ignas | just now i have some ideas about how this can be implemented | 18:51 |
| th1a | jfroche_: Do the grade book first. | 18:51 |
| th1a | But I'd imagine you'll start bumping into these issues. | 18:52 |
| jfroche_ | so or later yes | 18:52 |
| th1a | jfroche_: Overall, I'm happy with your report. | 18:56 |
| th1a | Don't let that be obscured by the subsequent conversation. | 18:56 |
| th1a | I'm just focusing on what I'm most worried about. | 18:57 |
| jfroche_ | i was wondering if i should put this somewhere or if it's ok like that | 18:57 |
| th1a | No, give us some time to discuss these time/archiving issues. | 18:57 |
| ignas | jfroche_: by the way - can you add some explanation of the summary table | 19:02 |
| ignas | what these colours mean? | 19:02 |
| ignas | what is in the columns? | 19:02 |
| jfroche_ | yep there is the maximum score in blue | 19:03 |
| ignas | Maximum possible | 19:03 |
| jfroche_ | right | 19:03 |
| ignas | what P1, P2, P3 means? | 19:04 |
| jfroche_ | at the bottom gray/blue there is the sum of the period | 19:04 |
| jfroche_ | that's the daily periods | 19:04 |
| ignas | ? | 19:04 |
| jfroche_ | daily work periods | 19:05 |
| jfroche_ | sorry | 19:05 |
| jfroche_ | i explained i think | 19:05 |
| ignas | i just find it difficult to grasp | 19:07 |
| ignas | having 3 different grades | 19:07 |
| ignas | for different periods | 19:07 |
| ignas | are these the same periods as the ones in SchoolTimetable | 19:09 |
| ignas | or are you talking only about periods in which the work was graded? | 19:09 |
| ignas | and you can have up to 3 "grades" for your work in the class during the whole year | 19:10 |
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| ignas | jfroche_: you should add Period and Level to the vocabulary | 19:11 |
| jfroche_ | ok will do that | 19:12 |
| ignas | as from what i understand these terms are used differently from the ones in schooltool | 19:12 |
| jfroche_ | sure, for period mainly | 19:14 |
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