IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2007-05-07

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* Lumiere sits down at the table15:59
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ignashi tom16:21
Lumieremorning th1a16:22
th1agood morning ignas, Lumiere16:22
th1aHi jfroche.16:22
th1aMy power supply seems to have given out on my desktop.16:23
th1aOr at least nothing happens when I try to turn it on.16:23
jfrochehappenned twice to me when i had storm in here16:24
ignasth1a: tried pulling out the cord16:25
ignasand puting it back again16:25
ignasand then turning it on16:25
th1aI'll try that.16:25
ignasworks 99% of the time for me16:25
ignasit's flicker protection, so that if your PC goes down because of power outage, it won't turn on automatically, so that if you have 5-6 short outages, PC would not get damaged16:26
th1aHm.  No luck.  The chassis and power supply are really old now though.  All the other parts have been replaced over time.16:27
ignasi see16:27
th1aGuess it is time for the annual "pull it out from under the desk, blow all the dust out and replace what's broken" ritual.16:27
Lumierethankfully the power supply is cheap16:28
th1ajinty: ayt?16:29
jintyth1a: yep16:29
* Lumiere hands th1a a bag of gravel16:30
th1aOK. let's get underway then.16:30
th1ajinty:  How was UES?16:30
jintypretty cool, met lots of great people16:30
jintysevilla's incredible too16:30
Lumiereyou guys didn't scare ogra too much?16:31
jintynope, don't think thats possible16:31
jintybut otherwise I spent a lot of time talking with everyone16:33
jintyeven discovered why SIS is one of the big things schooltool needs to do16:34
LumiereSIS -> SIF?16:34
jintyIt was explained to me how essential that was in getting into schools16:36
jintyand how much of a bearocratic load it can take off teachers16:37
jintyto be compliant with the informational demands of local govornment16:37
jintywell, I think it's called different names in different countries16:38
th1aStudent Information System, aka, Management Information System.16:38
th1aWhat else did you learn?16:38
jintymostly it was human stuff16:39
jintyseeing people16:39
jintyotherwise I'm 99% certain Zope 3.4 is going into gutsy16:39
th1aThat's good to know.16:40
th1aDid you meet Dave Trask and Matt Oquist?16:40
jintyDavid I think was going to do your presentation16:42
th1aHe offered to.16:42
jintybut eventually that didn't happen16:42
th1aOK... anything else to report from Sevilla?16:43
jintynot much other than what I put in my e-mail16:44
jintyI generally got the impression that people were waiting for a release before even trying to do anything with schooltool16:44
jintyat least those people who wanted to try it out with their local school16:45
th1aI've encouraged that approach, considering the state of the current release.16:45
jintyand who didn't need SIS functionality16:45
th1aI'm getting more excited about having a real release again.  It has been a while.16:45
th1aI'm a little confused about the new build system... we are using zc.buildout now?16:46
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jintywell out build system just makes a schooltool egg16:47
jintythat's all16:47
th1aWere we using buildout before ;-)16:48
jintythen you need to assemble the eggs into something that you can run16:48
jintywhich is what ignas is doing with the buildout stuff16:48
jintyand what I'm doing with the packaging16:48
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jintyconceptually buildout is similar to apt16:48
th1ajinty: Right.16:49
ignasi just wanted to test whether the egg has everything required, and whether it can run16:49
ignasand make it easier to install pre packaged schooltool for people who want to try out svn version16:49
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ignasnow i can actually install schooltool in such configuration that will (i assume) be used in a packaged deb (at least the bits in src)16:50
ignasand see if everything works16:50
th1aOK.  Do you make some kind of egg sandbox to try that out?16:51
ignasyes, the buildout thingie16:51
ignasand i had a small script that would replace the egg installed from nightly build, with an egg i just build locally16:52
Lumiereth1a: the st-buildout svn is the sandbox that does it16:52
th1aSo it takes care of the sandboxing itself?16:52
Lumiereit takes care of installing the eggs into itself16:53
th1aSo I won't pollute my main Python installation.16:54
Lumiereit seems to be using the main python installation?16:54
ignasthe only problem with it is - your local python installation might polute *it*16:55
LumiereI am trying to find the src16:55
ignasall your python applications etc. won't notice any local schooltool buildouts16:55
ignasbut at the moment we have the problem with some ubuntu packages unsolved16:55
th1aWhat's the problem?16:56
ignasso if you for example have pytz2006 installed - buildouting schooltool will not really work :/16:56
Lumierewhere are all the source files?16:56
ignasand the buildout for schooltool has to workaround docutils package if it is intstalled16:56
ignasLumiere: eggs/16:57
jintyignas: I let some people know about that16:57
ignasjinty: i'll talk to j1m about that as well16:57
th1aSo the problem is that when you run SchoolTool it will still use the main Python version of the package rather than the local one?16:58
ignaslocal? main?16:59
th1aOh... sorry.17:00
ignasoh, i seem to understand you.17:01
th1amain > /usr/lib/etc. local > in the checkout directory.  Or maybe I'm still confused.17:01
ignasthe conflicts arise not just when using, but when installing as well17:02
ignasso yes, sometimes the wrong package is used17:02
ignassometimes buildout tries to install your "site-packages" instead of the egg from the internet17:02
th1aRegardless, I can try it out without worrying about polluting the system Python, right?17:03
th1aOK.  Cool.17:03
th1aDoes anyone have a concern that this is just going in the wrong direction?17:03
th1aSpeak now or forever hold your peace.17:04
Lumiereat this point17:04
Lumierethe wrong direction may be better then no direction17:04
th1aI'll take that as a "no problem."17:05
th1aOK... moving on then.17:05
th1ajfroche: How are things going for you?17:05
jfrochegoing well, worked out the import17:06
th1aOh, the schedule info?17:06
jfrochegot to understand their version of the gradebook17:06
jfrochenot yet the courses after the fact that they changed their export17:06
jfrochenow i have informations i need to build the gradebook17:07
jfrochei was wondering how deep do i have to go with it17:07
jfrocheas deep as it match their wishes ?17:07
th1aWell, we just have to decide a reasonable point.17:08
jfrocheex: they have different "kind" of grade book depending on the level17:08
jfrochei mean not only the view but the terms are different17:08
th1aHm... maybe you should write up their requirements and send us an email.17:08
jfrocheok i have some of them on Excel17:09
th1aSo we can discuss which parts overlap with what pcarduner and ignas are doing.17:09
jfrochethis might help to understand their wishes17:09
jfrocheok so i will write up the way they are working with gradebook17:09
th1aOverall I'd rather have one good system that works with part of the school than two that don't quite work for anyone.17:10
ignasth1a: most of the time it's the other way17:10
ignaseither 2 that work17:10
ignasor 1 that tries to suit both, but doesn't17:11
LumiereI think he's trying to say17:11
Lumierethat he wants 1 for part of the school17:11
Lumierethat works really well17:11
ignasoh, about the level gradebook requirement17:11
ignasin that case - yes, starting with 1 type is better17:11
ignaslater it can be extended17:11
ignasif there is time17:11
th1aOf course, something that is great for everyone is best, but I've learned about the hazards of that route.17:12
th1aLumiere: How are things in CanDo-land?17:13
Lumierenot too bad17:16
Lumierewe're working on finalizing the user story list17:16
Lumierethe only official list will be in blueprints@launchpad17:16
th1aI'm going to try out pcardune's new gradebook this week.17:18
Lumiereit is in constant use17:18
Lumiereby jelkner17:18
th1aignas: Do you want to have a longer chat -- you had some questions last week?17:20
ignasas for what i did ;)17:20
th1aignas: Yes, sorry.17:20
ignasI began working on the journal for lyceum17:20
ignasi think i will be done with the initial implementation this week17:21
ignasapparently it is quite simple when you don't have to think about WFMC ;)17:21
th1aI learned my lesson.17:21
ignasthe egg branch is working, but we should find out whether we want tests working in the packaged egg17:22
ignasand what kind of Person would be the right one to use17:22
ignasi have picked the packages to be included using my own judgement17:22
ignasif anyone wants to help us with eggs/buildout - we need people do checkout the buildout branch and test it17:23
Lumiereignas: is the lyceum journal anything like cando's journaling system17:23
ignasi guess having instructions somewhere on the web would be nice17:23
th1aYes... instructions.17:23
ignasLumiere: no, it's more like Belgium one17:23
ignasLumiere: journal - gradebook + attendance17:24
ignasLumiere: Lithuanian terminology17:24
ignasLithuanian open source guys asked whether we could package schooltool adapted to lithuanian schools as a deb package in like 2-3 days17:25
ignasbut i am afraid that we can't really do that17:25
th1aIs there a Lithuanian distro?17:25
ignasyes, but a simple deb for any debian distro would be good enough for them17:26
ignaslithuanian distro is Desktop oriented at  the moment17:26
th1aWell, they'll get one in the fall.17:26
ignasth1a: no, not really, Lyceum is a bit different from other schools17:26
ignasnot much, but still would need work on data importing17:27
th1aWell, data importing is always going to require some tweaking.17:27
th1aOK... did I forget anyone else?17:28
th1aignas: So do we need to schedule another chat?17:29
ignaswe can schedule, or talk right now17:29
ignasthe way it's more comfortable to you17:30
ignasconvenient i mean17:30
th1aWell, we're here now, so we can just keep going.17:31
LumiereI'll be back in an hour17:31
ignasth1a: while i know what i want from schooltool, sometimes it seems that i have no idea what are your expectations17:32
ignaswhat things you consider important17:32
ignasand what direction do you want schooltool to evolve17:33
th1aWhat directions are you thinking about?17:33
th1aI mean, what kind of directions do you mean?17:34
ignaslet's say - how do you think schooltool should be installed, by someone who wants to try it out?17:34
ignashow will people customize it to suit the needs of their schools?17:34
ignashow much are we going to do ourselves, and what parts will be left to schools to implement/configure?17:35
th1aWell, I suppose it is a matter of deciding what is NOT a priority.17:36
th1aI mean, I'm not going to say "SchoolTool should be difficult to install" as a goal.17:36
ignaswell - there is one thing "what should we do now", we can agree upon that most of the time17:37
th1aDefinitely Ubuntu is a priority.17:37
ignasbut sometimes while agreeing on small steps, i seem to lose the sense of direction17:37
th1aI understand.17:37
ignaswhat being in Ubuntu gives us?17:37
ignashow is it a part of the major goal, having a SIS used and usable by schools17:38
th1aI mean, for the forseeable future, if people want to run SchoolTool in production, we'll probably point them at Ubuntu, because we aren't going to be spending a lot of time writing an installer for Mac OS X.17:38
th1aSo in terms of ease of installation, that's one focus.17:39
ignascan people run schooltool in production?17:39
th1aNot yet.17:39
ignaswhen do you think we should reach the stage of running in production17:40
th1aMaybe in the fall.  Definitely in a year.17:40
ignaspremonition? ;)17:40
ignaswhat do you think is missing? why can't we run schooltool in production right now?17:40
th1aA gradebook, attendance, reports, more import tools, general polish.17:41
ignaswhat country should schooltool be usable in then?17:42
ignasbecause gradebook, reports, and import tools are very specific.17:42
th1aWe just have to make it as generally usable as we can and broaden it out as we go forward.17:44
th1aReports will always be fairly specialized, so we'll need to provide some tools for creating them.17:44
ignaswhat tools?17:44
th1aBut also some reasonable defaults.17:44
ignashow do tools for making reports look like?17:44
ignaswhat does "generally usable" mean?17:45
th1aWell, just having documentation for doing them with ReportLab or pdftemplate would be a start.17:45
th1aI mean, work in a wide variety of schools.17:46
ignasthis is the point in which my vision is different.17:46
ignasi think having a gradebook work for a different schools, or attendance for different schools, or person for different schools17:47
ignasis not very feasible, and very difficult to attain without having a lot of different but precise requirements.17:47
ignasi was thinking of going for "core" and "plugins" mode of operation17:47
ignashaving small, simple, and different gradebooks17:47
ignasbelgian, Cando, lithuanian17:48
ignasat the moment17:48
ignaspolishing them so that they would work first17:48
ignasand only then when they really work, going for something different17:48
th1aI think we envision the same thing.17:49
ignasi haven't seen many "broad" applications, even word processors seem narrow, when you compare them to the reporting/attendance of different schools17:49
th1aWell... there certainly are commercial applications that more or less work for most schools, at least in a given country.17:49
th1aWhat is the "something different" you refer to?17:50
ignasi don't think "broad" gradebook can be implemented17:50
ignasi don't think "generally usable" is useful17:51
ignasCanDo is very precisely usable17:51
ignasand is very very good at it17:51
th1aYes, but CanDo's case is much more general than you think.17:52
ACSpike[Work]have you examined the gradebooks in systems such as moodle and blackboard? moodle is pretty widely used and so has probably already hit on a number of different use cases.17:53
th1aYes, there are certainly existing gradebooks that people find to be useful, if not perfect.17:54
ACSpike[Work]I've never heard anyone claim either of those to be "perfect" :-)17:54
th1aI mean, we've got a few different types of grading we're discussing now, and we've only got a small sample of schools,17:54
th1abut fundamentally there are only a handful of ways to approach grading, which aren't that different.17:55
ACSpike[Work]examining the feature requests and bug reports against moodles gradebooks might be interesting17:55
ACSpike[Work]you can see what people claim they want and what they complain about17:55
th1aACSpike[Work]: Well, at this point we're trying to stay focused on the needs of the specific schools we're working with.17:56
ACSpike[Work]oh, well from a bystanders perspective you are flipping back and forth a little between specific applicability and general applicability17:56
ignasth1a: so if to concentrate our effort on some moderately large country, we have actual experience with (US for example)17:57
ignaswe need17:57
ignasGradebook(US), Attendance(US), Usability testing, improvement17:57
ignasPolish? (what is included)?17:57
ignasReports (pdf? html with print CSS?)17:58
th1aACSpike[Work]: Yes... the tension between the two.17:58
ignasfrom the technical side:17:59
ignasPluggability on the database level.18:00
ignasYear to year transition.18:00
ignasInstallation and customization by users.18:00
th1aYes... year to year transition is huge.  Forgot about that.18:00
ignasGeneration scripts for different plugins.18:01
ACSpike[Work]I hate the year to year transition around here18:01
ignasIntegration with existing systems.18:01
ignasImport of timetables, persons, groups, courses, sections etc.18:01
ignasACSpike[Work]: how do you do it?18:01
th1aACSpike[Work]: We don't, yet.18:01
ignasLevels, and all the logic around them.18:01
ACSpike[Work]well, we're a college18:02
ignasth1a: the Gusty +1 is when?18:02
th1aA year.18:02
ACSpike[Work]one of our main issues is that different people aren't always in the same year18:02
ACSpike[Work]and summer session has tended to overlap with the fall semester in the past18:03
th1aignas: I'm not sure where you're going with this.18:03
ignasth1a: taking all the tasks that should be done, and trying to fit with resources we have.18:03
ACSpike[Work]so we aren't really transitioning between years as much as semesters (trimesters if you want to get picky)18:03
ACSpike[Work]gradeshools probably dont' have it as bad18:04
th1aignas: Well, nothing has changed.18:04
ignasnow that i have at least some idea of the velocity.18:04
th1aThis is why I'm trying not to make a lot of visionary statements.18:04
ignasth1a: why?18:04
th1aYou've got enough on your plate as it is, to make SchoolTool work at Lyceum.18:05
ignashow can you make short term decisions without a long term plan?18:05
ignashow can you create a product, without everyone on the team knowing how is it going to look like in the end ? ;)18:06
th1aWell, I can't tell you what a Lithuanian gradebook should look like.18:07
ignasyes, but you should have an idea what the word "deployed" means18:07
th1aI think part of the problem is that your standards are so high.18:08
ignasand you have your expectations for pluggability, installability, ease of use for schooltool18:08
th1aWhich is great, but it can cause paralysis.18:08
ignashow? to whom?18:09
th1aI mean, we'll be better off shipping something that works SOMEWHERE than not shipping something.18:10
ignasyes, but it is better to know where that SOMEWHERE is, before shipping18:11
th1aBut more to the point, the market is full of educational administration tools that don't quite fit and are impossible or VERY expensive to modify.18:11
ignasmy first SOMWHERE is Lithuania18:11
th1aignas: Yes.18:11
th1aWe've got Lithuania, Belgium and Arlington, Virginia.18:11
ACSpike[Work]th1a: is that a problem with the tools or the market? ie, every school has bewhilderingly different rules of operation18:12
th1aACSpike[Work]: This is one reason why open source makes sense in this area -- customizability.18:12
ACSpike[Work]wholeheartedly agree!18:13
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th1aOne underlying issue here, I think, is whether or not SchoolTool/Zope 3 is just too difficult and obscure for people to modify locally.18:13
ignasfor schools - yes18:14
ignasschools don't have admins, nor programmers18:14
th1aBut we'll have lots of interest from larger government entities.18:14
ignaswe have a lot of people expecting, but not many capable of writing a functional test even18:14
ACSpike[Work]and that would be an excellent environment for independent contractors to grow up around18:14
th1aACSpike[Work]: Yes.  I think we're at the point where we don't know if ST is too tough for that to happen easily, though.18:15
ACSpike[Work]oh, really?18:15
ACSpike[Work]is that possible?18:15
ACSpike[Work]I still haven't gotten into it, but I've been blaming time.18:16
ignasthat's why i think plugins are very important18:16
ignaslook at moodle plugin page18:16
th1aignas: I agree completely.18:16
ACSpike[Work]please don't follow the moodle model too closely :-)18:17
th1aI'm really not sure where we are disagreeing.18:17
th1aIf we are.18:17
ignasth1a: we are disagreeing on the amount of work that can be completed in the given amount of time, and on what is the priority, and what it means to focus.18:18
th1aWell... we went so far as to write up a little letter of intent about the scope of the work with Lyceum and when it would be done.18:19
th1aYour first priority is to do that.18:19
th1aSecondarily, we need to have some kind of release in Gutsy.18:20
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ignasth1a: i just think it would be more feasible to have a web based timetable for a lot of schools, that integrates with their LDAP, or some other student registry, has a way to go from year 2007 to year 2008, and _maybe_ even a few different gradebook plugins, with the same UI we have now18:24
ignasinstead of a demo of what might be useful for someone, and a promise that in 6 months we will add some way to switch to another year18:25
ACSpike[Work]what is a " web based timetable for a lot of schools, that integrates with their LDAP"?18:26
ignasLDAP integration means that everyone gets a password and a username in schooltool if they had one in theyr old system18:26
ignasif the school uses LDAP18:27
ACSpike[Work]heh, yeah18:27
ACSpike[Work]so LDAP and webbased timetable weren't related in that statement?18:28
th1aThe entire strategy this year is to work for actual customers.18:28
ignasyes, i know, but i can either be pushing for "attendance, UI, reports"18:28
ignasor for "switch to another year, integrate better"18:28
th1aYou do have some leeway to work with your customer.18:29
ignasi know, but i want to know which of these is more important to schooltool as a project18:29
ACSpike[Work]you guys need more hands18:30
ignasACSpike[Work]: you think so? ;)18:30
th1aSwitching to a new year is the most complicated.18:31
ignasth1a: the difference between schooltool.table and lyceum.journal, between "custom groups" and "complex import script that does the right thing for lyceum"18:31
ignasth1a: you haven't heard about different plugins having different evolution scripts18:31
th1aignas: I'm not sure what you mean there.18:31
ignasyou change schooltool  add evolution script 27, change lyceum add evolution scipt 218:32
ignasand you have no control over which one of these will be executed first18:32
ignasnow add schooltool.timetable, schooltool.attendance to the fray with their own evolution18:33
ignasand ...18:33
ignaswell - i haven't found a solution yet18:33
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th1aOK, so that's a long term problem, but not one we have to answer today.18:35
th1aI'm not sure what this means:  th1a: the difference between schooltool.table and lyceum.journal, between "custom groups" and "complex import script that does the right thing for lyceum"18:37
ignassmall steps18:37
ignasall of these could be done in more than 1 way18:37
ignasand i am doing the choice based on my vision of schooltool18:37
ignasnot considering what is important to you, only thinking "hmm, this might be useful to someone"18:38
ignasyou see - i can think about pluggability, or not think about it18:38
ignasi can spend my time making it easier for CanDo18:39
ignasor just do what lyceum asked me to do18:39
th1aOne thing is that your sense of what is best in these decisions is much better than mine.18:39
th1aRemember, I thought WFMC was a good idea.18:40
ignasif i know where you want to be, i can do my best to get us there18:40
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ignasas i can't ask you technical questions, you have no idea about18:40
th1aWe both understand that pluggability and customizability are long term goals.18:40
ignasi need to know where and when do you want schooltool to be18:40
th1aIt is pretty much up to you to try to find the right balance.18:41
ignasand what can be dropped if we don't have the resources18:41
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ignasso we would not get into situation "gaaah, but we absolutely need to release the new UI next month"18:42
th1aWhat is not an option is not having some substantial part of SchoolTool being used at Lyceum in the fall.18:42
ignasanother not an option seems not releasing schooltool on ubuntu18:42
ignasone more not an option was - not merging resource booking to trunk18:42
th1aAlthough that doesn't mean much in particular in terms of functionality.18:43
Lumiereignas: I think that last not an option was more a "please make sure this work doesn't die"18:44
Lumiere*is back*18:44
th1aSo ultimately you just have to make these decisions, ignas, and I trust your judgment.18:45
th1aBut we have explicitly set things up this year to make you think a bit less about getting the framework right and more on delivering a product to a customer.18:46
ignasth1a: having 2 other programmers using trunk with different requirements, made me think about framework way more than all the time when we had no users18:47
ignasi just can't say - sorry, you shouldn't have used schooltool these 9 months, as i had some requirements for lyceum to implement18:48
th1aignas: Has this been at all helpful?18:50
ignasth1a: yes, it was18:50
ACSpike[Work]what is lyceum?18:50
ignasthe school i am deploying schooltool for18:51
ACSpike[Work]ah, ok.18:51
Lumiereoh wow... it's an IB school no less18:51
th1aI guess one thing I'd add is to not sweat the functionality or completeness of whatever trunk gets packaged for Gutsy.18:54
th1aI don't have any illusions that it will be complete and production ready in all its parts.18:54
Lumiereimo we should just package what is production ready18:55
th1aMy goal for it is pretty much to get the packaging right and be ready for Gutsy+1.18:56
Lumiereand add on other things as secondary packages18:56
Lumiereas we go18:56
ignasLumiere: imo - nothing except calendar can be considered production ready18:56
ignasbut that's just imo18:56
Lumierecando will be18:56
ignasmy standards are high18:56
th1aWell, I'm saying that figuring out how to make the secondary packages behave may in itself take a long time.18:56
Lumiereth1a: yes18:57
ignasCanDo will be a secondary package18:57
Lumiereignas: that is my assumption18:57
ignasso we will have to figure at least part of it very soon18:57
Lumiereis that CanDo will be installed as schooltool-cando and require schooltool-common to be installed18:58
th1aLet's make it the simplest thing that could possibly work, though.18:58
ignasLumiere: that part is junty's territory ;)18:59
ignasand we have an idea how to make it work19:00
LumiereI know it's jinty's area :)19:00
Lumiereth1a: that bag looks heavy19:00
ignasthe only problem is - what if you will fix a bug in CanDo, and we will fix a bug in SchoolTool19:00
th1aI'm about ready to take a shower.19:00
th1aMy shoulder hurts.19:00
th1aI forgot to drop the bag.19:00
ignasand we both will evolve19:00
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.19:00
ignaswe need some Intelligent Design ;)19:01
Lumiereignas: we may have to rewrite some part of the zope evolution system19:01
Lumierewhich would SUCK19:01
Lumiere*hears a M. Shuttleworth rolling in his bed or sneezing*19:01
ignasor write our own evolution system19:01
Lumierethere are definately areas where something like SchoolTool is going to come against corner cases19:02
Lumierethat zope corp hasn't thought of19:02
Lumieredatabase evolution may be one of them19:02
th1aI guess I'm saying that would be something to punt down the road until after the fall.19:03
Lumiereth1a: I think what ignas and I are saying is... we may not be able to19:03
ignasor during EP19:03
LumiereEP may be a good choice19:04
ignasor not upgrade CanDo nor SchoolTool packages19:04
* jinty also heard that schooltool was installed at 300 schools in south africa19:04
ignasuntil out next big release19:04
Lumiereignas: or do no upgrades19:04
jintythe last release that is19:04
Lumierethat change the database19:04
ignasjinty: poor kids :(19:04
jintyyeah, I told them to write mail to the list, or be left with useless databases19:05
th1aOK... I'm going to take a shower.  Have a good week, guys.19:07
ignasyou too19:07
ignastoday is a holiday in Lithuania anyway ;)19:08
ignasyes, one more ;)19:08
jintyignas: enjoy it!!!19:08
jintyat least for a moment19:08
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Lumierebbiab as well19:13
Lumiereif anyone sees pcardune, I'll be looking for him later19:13
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