IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2007-04-30

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Lumieremorning everyone16:09
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CrippsFXgood morning Lumiere16:14
Lumieredid I mention it's too early in the morning to actually be awake?16:15
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* th1a is reading the backlog from Friday.16:27
ignasth1a: by the way, could we talk about your vision of schooltool some time?16:30
ignasth1a: because i really don't know what do you expect schooltool to be in the future16:30
th1aignas: Perhaps that is a good idea.16:30
th1aI was away on a baseball trip this weekend, so I'm catching up.16:30
th1aignas: What aspect of my vision of SchoolTool are you unclear about?16:31
ignaswell - all of it ;)16:31
ignasthere are ideas, features16:31
ignasbut i would like to hear the whole story in one place16:31
ignaswhat do you expect schooltool to become in a year, two years or more ...16:32
ignasi know the technical direction of the project, i know what i want schooltool to have so it would be a usable *application*16:33
jfrochegood afternoon16:33
ignasjfroche: hi16:33
th1aHi jfroche.16:33
th1aignas: You want to know what we want as a framework or platform?16:34
ignasth1a: but i would like to know what do you think about schooltool16:34
th1aWell, there is huge demand for a good free student information system.16:35
ignasth1a: i want to know what do you expect schooltool to do or to be in the future16:35
th1aThat is adaptable or extensible to different countries.16:35
th1aSo on one hand you've got the case of individual schools that would like something free,16:36
th1abut it seems like the more important case is countries/regions, etc. looking for something that can be used throughout many schools.16:36
jfrochewith a z3 developper next to them ?16:38
th1aWell, that's the thing.  If you're talking about a larger scale/several schools, having a z3 developer handy is more plausible.16:38
th1aOf course, we'd love for that not to be necessary.16:38
th1aAnd I hope eventually we'll have a package like Moodle that a school can just download and run.16:39
th1aThat's *really* what we want.16:39
ignasso emm - 2 goals?16:39
LumiereI'd add that even if there were 2-3 packages that worked for say... sets of countries16:39
ignasbecause i know how to do the moodle thingie ;)16:39
ignasbut not the mulitple schools 1 server room with some kind of admin in it thingie ;)16:40
th1aIt is probably impossible to have one package that would work anywhere in the world.16:40
th1aWith no programming.16:40
ignasi mean - i can try pulling it towards "packaged schooltool" with easily installable plugins16:40
ignasthat make schooltool work for your school16:41
ignaswhich is my long term idea16:41
th1aOK... I think I see what you're asking.16:41
th1aLet me make clear that the goal right now is to have SchoolTool doing attendance, gradebook, calendaring, demographics, reporting, SOMEWHERE in the world this fall.16:42
ignasjust that i want to know what your long term idea is so that we would have more or less 1 direction16:42
ignasyes, that's the short term16:42
th1aThen, we take what we've got and package it up in the most generally usable form we can.16:43
ignasand ?16:43
th1aPerhaps we have several separate gradebook packages.  Perhaps we just include the "american" gradebook and the "lithuanian" one can be used if necessary.16:43
ignasbtw - packaging will be done before that iirc16:43
th1aWell, yes, but I'd say the gutsy packages will still be pretty rough.16:44
ignasas for the packaging model - as i have mentioned i would like to go for independent plugins16:44
ignasyou install schooltool16:44
ignasinstall schooltool-lyceum-gradebook16:44
ignasand it kind of works ;)16:44
th1aGutsy + 1 packages should be actually usable for schools that fit some model.16:44
th1aignas: Yes, I would like to have that.16:45
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th1aI mean, I'm not pushing a lot of stuff like modular packages, because I don't want to spend the next three months on architecture.16:45
th1aerchache: hi.16:45
ignasbut still, i can't see your long term vision16:45
erchachewhen arrive to sevilla?16:45
th1aerchache: Wednesday afternoon.16:46
erchacheuhmmm are on dev meet?16:46
th1aerchache: Yes.16:46
erchachewell we can speak later :-D16:46
ignasbecause jumping from schooltool.deb to schooltool for a region is not something that can be done without preparation, having schooltool modular is something that i'd rather implement gradually16:46
ignasrather than do in one jump16:46
ignasas i know what i want - i can slowly push everything in that direction16:47
ignaseggs, database plugins, more eggs, configuration screens, export plugins  etc.16:47
ignasif i won't know what your plans are, i won't be able to prepare for them ...16:48
th1aignas: OK.  So yes, ideally, this is all very modular, so eventually an administrator will be able to mix and match from a whole set of packaged components.16:48
th1aBut even then there should be a meta-package that the average person uses to get a standard version of ST running.16:50
LumiereI am thinking there may be 216:50
ignasth1a: with eggs and dependencies - meta package will be easy16:51
Lumierethere will be a couple meta packages I am thinking16:51
ignasth1a: schooltool-standard-ui depends on all the standard ZODB based components, and UI modules16:51
ignasth1a: and you get a running school16:51
ignasone of my concerns was16:51
Lumiereignas: that'd be schooltool-common?16:51
ignasmaybe not16:52
ignasone of my concerns was that we have some requirements that are not expressed ...16:52
th1aIn theory, schooltool-common lets you add people, and not much more than that.16:52
ignaslike - how easy should it be to install schooltool16:52
Lumiereit may be good to sit down sometime in the next month16:53
th1aOn Ubuntu, apt-get.16:53
ignaswho will be users installing and managing schooltool instances16:53
Lumiereand write down a bunch of these  user stories16:53
Lumierenot to be implemented immediately16:53
ignasth1a: and then what? have you tried installing apache?16:53
Lumierebut to have them available16:53
th1aI hate configuring Apache.16:54
ignasteachers are not admins, and don't really know much about database management, configuration management ...16:54
LumiereI love configuring apache16:54
ignasif we are targeting teachers - it's one set16:54
Lumierebut I'm a glutton for punishment16:54
ignasif admins - another set16:54
Lumiereignas: installation has to be targetted at an admin/IT person16:54
Lumiereso does configuration16:55
ignasthe need for apt-get install (because easy_install schooltool would be too difficult) kind of contradicts that16:55
LumiereI disagree, it should have the questions that are needed for sane working of the systems in the deb packages16:55
th1aSchoolTool has to be in Edubuntu.16:56
th1aThat's one hard requirement.16:56
ignasjust that i think we are releasing software for users, not for distributions16:57
ignasi would like to know who are these users?16:57
ignasteachers, IT staff, experienced debian admins16:57
ignasCS teacher with a bit of linux experience16:57
th1aReasonably, IT staff is maintaining the server, teachers are the users.16:57
ignasso Lumiere16:58
ignasand not th1a16:58
Lumierelol... I would be maintaining the server16:58
Lumiereth1a would be using it16:58
Lumiereonce packaged16:59
Lumierethere will need to be some warnings to people16:59
th1aI would say that it is VERY important that th1a can apt-get schooltool and it does SOMETHING out of the box.16:59
Lumiereespecially in the United States16:59
Lumiereabout data security16:59
ignasth1a: i just wanted that written ;)16:59
* Lumiere presses a buzzer to remind people that we're talking UES this morning17:00
ignasbecause not having VERY important user requirements expressed, makes my work a bit uncertain17:00
th1aignas: Sure.17:00
ignasth1a: which is why i wanted to hear what do you want schooltool to do17:01
ignasbut ok17:01
th1aI'm not complaining ;-)17:01
ignasvision - later17:01
th1aIs jinty here?17:01
jintyth1a: yep17:01
th1aOK, so do we have specific packaging issues that we want to stress to the Edubuntu guys.17:02
th1aSpecific packages that will need to be created?17:02
jintywell, our entire dependency tree needs to be packages17:03
th1aThere are also a bunch of z3 dependencies which aren't that stable, right?17:03
th1aSo every little thing like zc.table needs to be made into a .deb.17:04
jintyyep, basically17:04
th1aAre those going to be hard to make, or just tedious?17:04
ignas117 eggs we depend on17:04
th1aI mean, are they all essentially the same from a packaging point of view?17:04
jintyit's my opinion that if a programmer can't write stable software, we shouldn't depend on it17:04
jintyyes, more or less17:05
th1aWell, I don't think that they aren't *stable* as much as new.17:05
CrippsFXth1a: just tedious ;)17:05
jintyI've even got a few scripts that can automate things even more17:05
Lumierejinty: how hard is it to make a deb from an egg?17:05
jintylike getting dependency information from the setup.yo17:06
jintyLumiere, extremely easy for simple eggs17:06
ignasjinty: is it just me or things like pytz are already egg like in feisty?17:06
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jfrochewhy can't we package a basic version of schooltool in a deb with eggs inside ?17:06
Lumierejfroche: it can't be cleaned up easily17:06
jintyignas: yep, pytz is even in dapper I think17:06
jfrocheLumiere: clean up ? if you remove schooltool you remove the eggs17:07
jintyjfroche, I'm pretty sure that ubuntu developers are not going to accept that17:07
ignasjinty: i can recall that when installing pytz >= 2007 , i didn't get any eggs downloaded, which means that egg dependencies were all set17:07
ignasso there probably is a standard way to package an egg as a deb for python17:08
jintyignas: yes, if you have the deb of pytz installed, it won't download the egg17:08
Lumiereif there is, please post it to the schooltool-dev lists17:08
jintyLumiere, apt-get source python-tz17:08
Lumiereguess i gotta go find a dapper box to check on17:09
ignasjinty: btw, how did your ZPKG cleanup go? anything i can do to help you make schooltool.egg?17:09
jintyLumiere, try any deb based distribution released in the last few years17:10
ignasschooltool2006dev_r6885.tar.gz or something like that17:10
Lumierelet me add a deb-src actually *poof*17:10
jintyignas: well, I guess we need ./ sdist bdist_egg to create what we want17:10
jintyto release17:10
Lumierecan an egg install to a dir17:11
Lumiereor will it always go in site-packages?17:11
ignasLumiere: yes, with some magic parameters17:11
jintyso, dependencies are more or less done17:11
ignasPYTHONPATH=./eggs easy_install -zaxd ./eggs -s ./eggs -S ./eggs setuptools17:11
ignasPYTHONPATH=./eggs easy_install -zaxd ./eggs -s ./eggs -S ./eggs pytz17:11
ignasand so on17:11
jintybut we need to think about the contents of the tar.gz17:11
ignaswill install the egg into ./eggs without executables17:12
jintyso what schooltool packages should be in there17:12
ignasjinty: the part i don't know much about is the /bin/ management with eggs17:12
ignasjinty: at the moment - we might try releasing all of them17:12
ignasand then remove some ...17:12
jintyI think we just punt the bin problem to the debian packages17:13
jintythey can install the bin scripts17:13
jintyunless people want to use the schooltool eggs outside of packages17:13
ignaswould be a nice replacement for nightly builds17:14
ignasand people would not have to follow 17 steps to set up svn schooltool17:14
jintythere is a scripts= option to distutils17:14
jintybut I'm not sure how it plays with eggs17:14
jintyth1a: which parts of schooltool do you think shouldn't be released?17:16
th1aIn Gutsy?17:16
jintyin the next scholtool release17:16
jintyi.e. schoolbell?17:16
th1aNo SchoolBell.17:16
LumiereI am hoping that schoolbell won't exist17:16
jintyand more, perhaps.17:16
th1aThere are some unmaintained corners like notes.17:16
th1aAnd commendations is really just a developer example.17:17
jintycan you and ignas come up with a list of exclusions?17:17
th1aI'm not sure how much Ignas has ripped out of the Lyceum branch.17:18
ignaswe can safely disable - notes, commendations, gradebook, demographics(1-2 hours of work), requirements, levels, devmode (would disable sample data)17:19
ignasdemographics only need work if we want sample data to work after that17:19
ignaswithout sample data - demographics is optional17:20
Lumieredo we really want sample data for a release?17:20
th1aLumiere: I think that's ignas's point.17:20
Lumiere+1 then17:21
th1aHopefully we'll have a working gradebook for gutsy, though.17:21
ignasth1a: your requirment was "easily usable out of the box"17:21
ignassample data is the only way to test schooltool easily17:21
ignasat the moment17:21
Lumieregradebook should be a separate package in any case17:21
ignasLumiere: not that easy17:21
ignasLumiere: long term - yes, short term - if i will have time17:22
th1aWell, users don't expect to be able to generate sample data.17:22
ignasthat's true17:22
Lumierenot to mention there's no clean way to get sample data out of schooltool17:22
Lumierewithout manually removing it all17:22
th1aI don't think it is necessary for a release.17:23
Lumiereso... if someone starts up, makes sample data and goes to look around17:23
Lumierethey then want to start USING it17:23
Lumiereand they're stuck with 30000 entries of sample data17:23
Lumierethat they have to remove17:23
th1aIt could easily be more confusing than helpful to the average person.17:23
ignasok :)17:23
ignaswe could do some hallway testing about our demographics in europython17:24
ignasto see which they prefer17:24
ignassimple and small17:24
ignasor USA one17:24
ignasor something in between17:25
th1aWell, the "USA" one is certainly hairy in its implementation right now.17:25
ignasusers can't see that anyway17:25
ignasbut i saw users get scared when they see all the languages except their own in demographics, or see the "race" field17:25
Lumiereit is good that demographics can go poof imo17:26
th1aWell, it is hairy to the user, too.  OTOH, other similar systems aren't that elegant either.  You just have a lot of data to cram in.17:26
Lumierecando 2007 will require no demographics in VA17:26
th1aI'm not pushing for the current implementation to be the default.17:26
ignaswe'll just ask users about that17:26
th1aOr fields, for that matter.17:26
Lumierethe mandate we got from our CTE people is 'testing number only'17:26
Lumiere(referring to VA's Standards of Learning state generated testing number for a student)17:27
th1aOK... so jinty, you'll arrive in Seville with a list of things that need to be packaged?17:28
jintyyeah, sure17:28
th1aAnd we'll show it to Oliver and duck ;-)17:29
Lumieredo you need ogra? he's on #ltsp right now working through ltsp-boot stuff17:29
th1aWe'll be seeing him in person in a couple days.17:29
th1aAny last words?17:30
Lumiereshould I warn him to run away screaming if he sees you?17:30
th1aNo, I need the element of surprise.17:30
th1aOh, so are the drop down menus in trunk now?17:30
Lumiereso is resource scheduling17:30
Lumiereit seems17:31
th1aOK, so I can reasonably use that in my brief demo at UES?17:31
ignasyes, and yes17:31
ignasth1a: you should at least try it out before that17:31
Lumiereignas: how stable is it?17:31
ignasand yell at me to fix it17:31
th1aignas: Yes, I will try it out ;-)17:31
Lumiereif I moved my beta test site over to it17:31
Lumierehow much of a boom would I hear?17:31
ignasLumiere: as stable as always ;)17:31
th1aOK.  Have a good week, folks.17:32
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LumiereI'll take that as stable enough to keep me sane17:32
ignasyour resources might get broken, or not17:32
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:32
LumiereI'm cool with that17:32
ignasth1a: when will you have some time for the requirement discussion17:32
Lumierekjcole: broken server again?17:32
th1aSoftware requirements or academic requirements?17:32
ignasi hate surprises ;)17:33
kjcoleYep. :-(17:33
kjcoleI'm finally giving up and moving the server off-campus.17:33
th1aignas:  Do you want to talk before I go to Spain or after?17:33
ignaswhenever you will have enough time17:34
th1aWell, is in one week ok?17:34
ignasyes, fine17:34
ignasyou will have some time to think about it ;)17:34
th1aOK.  Next Monday or Tuesday.17:34
ignasMonday we'll have a meeting so we can decide it then17:35
th1aOr we could just talk after the meeting next week.17:35
th1aignas: OK.17:35
ignashave a nice week17:35
Lumiere*poof to shower*17:35
th1aYou too.17:35
Lumieretalk to people later today17:35
th1aYes, I have to be afk for a bit, too.17:35
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ignasbtw - tomorrow is a national holiday, so i might be a bit of an afk ;)17:41
th1ajfroche: So you've got a problem getting timetables and schedules from your school -- they're only on paper?18:08
jfrocheth1a: i have trouble to get in touch with the guy who is in charge of the time table18:09
jfrochehe is the only person to tell me if "his" software can export to any usefull format for us18:09
th1aHm... don't you have another contact at the school who can help nag him?18:10
jfrochesecretary tell me that he is the only one18:10
jfrochebut i can ask above him for a meeting with him18:11
th1aPlease do that.  I mean, we don't need anything unreasonable from him... presumably his system already exports to something?18:13
th1aOr is it entirely self-contained?18:13
jfrochei am praying that some exports exists18:14
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erchacheth1a jinty20:51
erchachemi email is asmarin@us.es20:51
erchachemessenger erchache2000@hotmail.com20:51
erchacheskype erchache200020:51
erchachemy personal phone is +34 660 20 93 7220:52
erchachearrive from sevilla airport to downtown is very easy20:52
erchacheyou can get a bus for 2 euros or taxi for 20 euros20:53
erchacheif you have hotel on downtown use bus if flight permit it20:53
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erchacheth1a: are you here?21:44
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Lumierehi pcardune21:54
pcardunehi Lumiere21:55
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