IRC log of #schooltool for Friday, 2006-12-22

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newz2000jinty: still around?00:19
newz2000jinty: the server is up, but I think you should reboot it in order to use the kernel I set as the default. Also, can you create a user for me, 'mnuzum' and give me sudo access? My ssh key is at:
newz2000I'll e-mail you that as well00:22
jintynewz2000: yeah, still here now and then, making your user now00:33
newz2000did you reboot the server?00:36
jintyno, not yet, you can if you wish00:37
jintyotherwise I'll do it now00:38
newz2000go ahead, and also, can you reset the root password to something?00:38
jintyyour password is in the pwd file in your home directory00:39
newz2000ok. When you reboot I'll go in there00:40
newz2000crossing fingers00:41
jinty:) its there00:41
jintyjust removing the root password now00:41
newz2000great, I logged in ok00:42
newz2000So future reboots should not be a problem since the grub menu is updated correctly. Just note that dapper kernels don't work.00:43
jintyThanks, not that I reboot the machine at all;)00:45
jintyonly for kernel upgrades, perhaps when we upgrade away from dapper00:45
newz2000I'd even be careful about doing that, personally.00:45
newz2000because the server reboots fine, just with no networking.00:46
newz2000I've thought it would be cool to have a script that runs 5min after boot and detects if no networking... then fixes grub and reboots.00:46
* jinty doesn't even think about upgrades unless he loses security support00:46
newz2000But I haven't done that yet, and until someone does it, messing with kernels is asking for trouble00:46
newz2000yeah, me too. You'll be safe with dapper for a while.00:47
jintybut, thanks, especially for keeping me infomed, sounds like it took a while00:47
newz2000I'm glad that we have some awesome sysadmins so that I only have to mess with this once in a blue moon00:48
jintynothing you can do about a power supply going down00:48
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licionewz2000, hi02:46
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josephhello everyone04:26
josephhow are you all doing?04:26
josephanyone here?04:29
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ddaaignas: ping14:49
ignasddaa: pong14:49
ddaagot an initial import of the dump you gave me14:50
ddaaI'd like you to have a look and tell me what you need done differently14:50
ignaswhere is it ?14:50
* ddaa uploads it to people.ubuntu.com14:50
ddaacoming soon, got it done yesterday late evening, and I've been busy preparing the christmas dinner this morning14:51
ddaaI had to do a lot of svn2bzr hacking to get the damn thing working14:53
ignasbzr changed a lot since svn2bzr was abandoned14:53
ddaathe import was done using a lightly customized svn2bzr to support the unusual naming convention14:53
ddaaactually the problems were not really bitrot14:54
ddaasince jelmer had a reasonably current branch of svn2bzr that uses python-subversion and libsvn_ra instead of reading the dump14:54
ddaainstead, there were just plain bugginess14:54
ddaaand not-workingness14:54
ignasi see14:56
ignashow big is the repository after the import ?14:56
ddaaa no-trees repository is 210M14:57
ddaathe tarball I'm uploading is 41M14:57
ignasno-trees ?14:57
ddaasvn2bzr by default produces a repository where branches have working trees14:58
ddaathat inflates the size of the repository quite a bit because of the working source files duplicated all around14:58
ignasah, hmm, like darcs keeping "_darcs/current" that has all unmodified tree you are working on?14:59
ddaaI do not know what darcs does in this respect15:00
ddaaso I did a "bzr branches | xargs -n1 bzr remove-tree" before making the tarball15:00
ignasi see, so i can "check out" any tree i want, yet the repository stays compact15:01
ddaamh... I notice forgot to "touch .bzr/repository/no-working-trees"... so the repo I uploaded will still create working trees automatically when creating new branches inside.15:01
ddaaignas: yes15:01
ignasnice :)15:02
ddaaSo, the new svn2bzr works a live repo, not a dump15:02
ddaathe coversion took about 2h15:02
ddaaand eat about 600MB RAM15:02
ddaaI suspect the excessive RAM usage is caused by the fact that it keeps all branches open15:03
ddaabut since it was not excessive enough to prevent completion on my workstation, I did not spend time experimenting with it.15:03
ignasi see, well, I should be able to perform it on my laptop15:04
ignasthanks a lot for your help on the migration15:05
ddaaBTW, the diamond topology with the schooltool/schoolbell refactoring is not preserved15:05
ddaaand generally svn2bzr does not try to have files copied across branches use the same file ids.15:06
ddaaBranch creation by copying or branch renaming is done by "bzr branch" and "mv", but it's as far as it goes.15:06
ddaaThis would be fixable, but would be some work.15:07
ignashmm, so if i will look at a file that belonged to schoolbell some time ago, but now is in schooltool i'll see the person who copied it as the author of changes (like with svn)?15:07
ddaaI think svn annotate actually tracks copies15:07
ddaahere, it would be difficult to preserve this information at all15:08
ddaaI'm saying that the various branches may not merge very well15:08
ignasso if i have 3 active branches at the moment in the repository15:08
ignasmerging some changes between them might be a bit difficult at first15:09
ddaayes, until you have done a roundtrip of merge and reconciled the file ids15:09
ddaathe file id thing can possibly be improved15:10
ignaswhat are the terms i should look for in the bzr documentation to understand more about it?15:10
ddaabut the things are always going to be a bit rough until all the active stuff is bzr-native.15:10
ignasi see15:10
ddaaSo I would like you to look at the data, experiment a bit, and tell me if specific things need improving.15:11
ddaathat's the tarball of the repo15:12
ignasactively developing on 2 branches with changes spanning 5-10 commits, and then merging between them with svn is becoming a bit convoluted ...15:12
ddaawhen people use bzr, they usually have many more branches15:12
ddaalike one branch per feature, instead of one branch per developer15:12
ddaathough sometimes people end up having their own personal "integration" branch.15:13
ddaabranching strategies in DVCS is a whole field of its own :)15:13
ignaswhat i am worried about is the UI branch (not sure it is available in the dump i gave you) it is quite far away from trunk (a month+ of work on it, and a month or more work on the trunk)15:14
ddaaif it just branched and diverged, that should be as good as possible15:14
ddaawhat would be problematic would be there were some merges between the two since it branched15:14
ddaaesp. if there were merges that added files15:15
ddaamerges that only modified files would be handled as well as with svn (that is badly, but it's not a regression).15:15
ignashmm, in that case i'll have trouble with my current branches that are a little bit different with most of the changes being merged from one to the other15:15
ignasthe trunk vs "school specific customized schooltool"x3 actually ...15:16
ignashmm, i am not sure it is possible to fix that though15:17
ddaaI cannot answer this off hand :)15:18
ignassvn isn't telling anyone that it's merging 7 revisions from trunk to a branch15:18
ddaaif you give me more details about the branches where you see problems, I can look and see what can be improved.15:18
ignasjinty: are you there?15:19
ddaathe customized svn2bzr is
ddaamy personal svn2bzr branch is
ddaaThe script I used to run svn2bzr is
ddaaNote that it's setup so svn2bzr saves a debug-level log and drop in the debugger if there is an uncaught exception.15:21
ignasi see15:22
ddaait's useful to diagnose a problem that happens after 1h30 of runtime :)15:22
ignasit's still better than tailor :)15:22
ddaapretty much anything is better than tailor15:23
ddaatailor is simple but dumb15:23
ignasdumb - yes, simple - maybe ;)15:23
ignasunit tests that want repository working :)15:23
ddaahu...15:23 is spethial...15:24
ddaaI canot find any documentation that seems to deal with issues of reconciling file ids.15:27
ddaaignas: you can contact me at ddaa@canonical.com15:29
ddaaBut I'll be on vacation next week and the second week of January.15:30
ignasi see15:30
ddaaNext week I may be able to spare a few hours. But second week of January I'll be trekking in the desert of Morroco.15:30
jintyignas: yep15:32
ddaaignas: anything else I can help you with today?15:32
ignasddaa: not at the moment15:33
ignasddaa: i want to try it on an up to date repo as it has a couple of test cases i will have to handle15:33
ignassooner or later15:33
ignasjinty: maybe you could either tar.bz2 an svn dump of an up to date st repo, or give me the access required to do that ?15:33
ignasjinty: please :)15:33
* ddaa grumbles things about how svn dump is an incredibly verbose format15:34
ignaswell, compressed dump was smaller than compressed bzr repository15:35
jintyon the way, but one question, can this conversion be done incrementally?15:39
jintyI am wondering if we could make a read only bzr repository updated each day from svn...15:39
ignashmm, not much use without the way back, i would rather want an oposite conversion - generating readonly svn (developers work with bzr, svn based buildtools continue to work)15:40
ignaswe'd only require a couple of branches converted ...15:41
jintyignas, sounds like that migh work15:42
ddaajinty: svn2bzr does not do mirroring15:43
jintyand avoid breaking my infrastructure till it can be converted15:43
ignasyes, but there are other tools iirc15:43
ignaswhich branches/tags do you need ?15:43
ddaacscvs does mirroring, but works on individual branches, not on whole repositories15:44
ignaswe'd want to have an svn mirror of a bzr branch15:44
ignasor something like that ...15:44
ddaabzr-svn can do anything but it does not support (yet) the branch naming convention of the schooltool repo.15:44
jintyignas: (its a tarball of the backup repo copy)15:44
ddaaIt would be possible to fix svn2bzr to be able to do mirroring, or bzr-svn to be able to handle the schooltool repo, but both are non-trivial amounts of work.15:45
jintyI need the release branches, tags and the trunk15:46
ignasddaa: we don't need that, we'd want changes made to bzr trunk to get to svn trunk not really thinking about branches15:46
ddaaignas: jelmer started working on publishing bzr branches to svn clients. But I do not think it's functionaly yet.15:46
ignasi think tailor would work in this case15:47
ddaabzr-svn would allow you to "bzr commit" to a svn repo15:47
ddaaand keep track of what bzr revision was merged in what svn revision15:48
* jinty notes that he needs to check if buildout supports bzr...15:48
ddaaI do not think tailor allows you to round-trip the ancestry information.15:48
* ddaa steps back and tries to understand what the guys want to get15:49
ignasrelease tools are designed to work with svn branches, if we will be developing using bzr - fixing a bug in scholtool-0.11.x will be in bzr repo, so we want (on some date, one way or another) to push all the changes made to bzr branch to an appropriate svn branch15:51
ddaaI see.15:51
ignasnamely - 2 release branches and probably trunk15:51
ddaaIf you just want to bzr -> svn -> release-tools for a few branches, I think tailor is a good fit.15:51
ddaaas long as you do not want something like bzr -> svn -> bzr or bzr -> svn -> release -> bzr15:52
ignasa simple crontab script that would run tailor on 3 bzr working trees would work i guess15:52
ddaaI guess. There might be some gotchas. In particular your should never "push" to those branch, but only merg+commit.15:53
ignashmm, why so?15:54
ddaaso the line of history stays append-only15:54
ddaahere's an example15:54
ignasoh, i just thought of a way to break it, the system is distributed, so i can have old unpushed patches and they'll distort the history if pushed15:56
ddaast.trunk: A -> B -> C15:56
ddaast.ignas: A -> D [merges C] -> E15:56
ddaaThen if you push st.ignas to st.trunk, the history of st.trunk becomes A->D->E15:56
ddaaSo effectively the branch have moved forward, but the revision number of the tip has not increased. It's not something you can mirror to svn.15:57
ddaanot easily, at least15:57
ignasi see the point ...15:57
ddaasomething smart might be able to mirror A->B->C->D->E, but I do not expect tailor to be this smart.15:57
ddaaTo avoid this sort of situation, you can use a checkout of st.trunk, and merge and commit there.15:58
ddaaIt is my opinion that push should not do this sort of thing by default, but that's how it works now.15:58
ddaaUsing checkouts for multi-committers branches is also better form, since it allows people to speak meaningfully about revision numbers.15:59
jintyEr, if all development is in bzr, I don't see why we even need a history in svn... It's nor required for the release tools.15:59
jinty(or a history that makes sense)16:00
ignasa shell script would work for such thing too :)16:00
ignasbzr pull, bzr diff | patch p016:00
ignassvn ci16:00
jintyI don't know the deatails, but something like that.16:01
ignasjinty: how often and what kind of releases are you going to be doing for schooltool ?16:01
jintynot often at all16:01
ignaswith 0.x.x versions being discontinued16:01
ddaajinty: sounds like a good idea. Keep a legacy system in the process is a needless source of failure modes.16:01
jintybut until we have a new way to make releases, I'd like to keep the old one working16:02
ignashmm, can we do it this way - we keep old svn repository available16:02
ignasand when you will want/need to make a release16:02
ignasi will port bzr changes to svn16:02
ddaayou can have both .bzr and .svn in the same repo.16:02
ignasas it would take up less time than devloping/testing tools to make it automatically16:03
ddaaso you can effectively do something like "bzr update ; svn ci -m 'sync with bzr' ;"16:03
jintyyes, sounds like a workable idea16:03
jintywe don't need something totally correct, merely something that works16:04
ddaathen in this case, you want "bzr pull --overwrite; svn ci -m 'sync with bzr'"16:04
ignasddaa: do i need any more up to date libraries/bzr branches to perform the migration ?16:05
ignasones not available in edgy by default16:05
ddaaI used bzr-0.1316:05
jintyddaa: some admin questions now: what's a reasonable way to admin/grant access a central repository? can I do it via apache https?16:06
ddaaedgy python-subversion is okay16:06
ddaajinty: there is a dav transport for bzr that exists as a plugin.16:06
ddaabut the recommended writable transport is sftp, since that's what everybody uses16:07
ddaayou can offer unix accounts with scponly as a shell to prevent people from actually getting a shell16:07
ddaayou can also use a team-owned branch on launchpad.net16:08
jintythen the repo would be stored on and we wouldn't have to have it on our server at all?16:08
ddaabut does no do repositories, so when you create a new branch, you need to upload all the data16:08
ddaajinty: yes, it's a hosting service. Though the data would still be on individual developers systems.16:09
jintyand a checkins mailing list?16:09
ddaathumper is working right now on allowing launchpad to send email message when it detects new commits. You do not need to have branches hosted on launchpad to use it. They just need to be registered there, they are automatically mirrored.16:10
ignasjinty: look at bundlebuggy - i want one :)16:11
ddaathe way the bzr people get commit emails is tied to their use of pqm, and it's not something I want to push you to use.16:11
ddaaIt's fiddly to set up.16:11
ddaaOTOH, it should be possible to set up a cronscript that gives you email messages for new commits.16:12
ddaaSomething just as simple as "bzr missing; bzr pull" would work.16:12
jintyhmm, ok, I guess I'll have to go through the docs myself at some point, it's time for me to stop asking questions for a while16:13
ddaajinty: the docs are not good on in depth stuff16:13
ddaabut the bzr folks are very helpful if you ask on #bzr or on the mailing list16:14
jintyok, once I spend more investigation time in, i'll pass by there16:14
ddaaPlease CC me on the message if you post on the mailingh list.16:15
ddaaI routinely have a huge backlog there.16:15
jintyignas: sorry, I think bundlebuggy is not going to make it for christmass;)16:15
jintyddaa: sure, but I might only have the concentrated time next year...16:16
ddaasame thing for me16:16
jintyanyway, ignas and I should do some tests first16:16
ignasddaa: how did the command line that you used to dump the repo look like ? any special parameters?16:18
ddaadump? I did not dump the repo. But I did "svnadmin create st.repo ; bzcat dump.bzr2 | svnadmin load -q st.repo"16:19
ignasnot dump, migrate16:20
ignaswrong word16:20
ddaaMy command was "./run-svn2bzr-st" :)16:21
ignasthank you :)16:21
ddaaMonday, you asked for a script that you could run as is :)16:21
ddaanote that it needs the customised svn2bzr.schooltool branch16:22
ddaato deal with the trunk/* and branches/obsolete/* and branches/schooltool/* branches16:23
ignasand then i just do "bzr branches | xargs -n1 bzr remove-tree" + "touch .bzr/repository/no-working-trees" in the export directory?16:27
ddaaYes, that will remove the working trees and set up the repository so they are no longer created by default.16:28
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ignasddaa: still in there?19:37
lisppaste5ignas pasted "merge between lyceum branch and trunk" at
ddaaignas: having dinner, back soon19:40
ddaaI see, it's the sort of problem I feared.19:42
ddaaI'll look deeper, but if it's what I expect, it's fixable.19:43
ddaa(fixable in svn2bzr)19:43
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ddaathe text conflicts are still going to happen unless we introduce some heuristics to guess past merges. But even without the heuristics, it would be no worse than svn.19:45
ddaawith bzr you can specify a merge base, with something like "bzr merge -r 123.."19:45
ddaathe file name conflicts, I'll look into fixing19:45
* ddaa goes back to the kitchen19:46
lisppaste5ignas annotated #33218 with "And apparently a lot of files are zero sized in lyceum bzr checkout" at
lisppaste5ignas annotated #33218 with "Find shows these cases" at
ddaafor the, maybe that's normal20:13
ddaafor GPL.txt that's definitely wrong20:14
ignasi know, the svn checkout works fine and only has's20:15
ignasbut in bzr checkout some files were zeroed...20:15
ddaaI see.20:15
ddaathe zeroed files... it's weird20:18
ignasmaybe because of copying ?
ddaashouldn't be... but that looks like a likely culprit20:19
ignashmm is not zeroed20:20
ignas is20:20
ignasand the difference is that zcml was not just added + copied20:20
ignasbut was rather added + modified + copied20:20
ignasGPL.txt - didn't get modified either20:21
ignasjust copied from one branch to another20:21
ddaaI cannot imagine how that could yield this behaviour.20:22
* ddaa goes to stare at the copy handling code20:22
* ignas can see such pattern as most of the code that is "empty" was created on one branch and copied to another20:23
ignascopied as in branched20:23
lisppaste5ignas annotated #33218 with "not sure if it's a bug but bzr visualise bails out too" at
ddaaI think I found somethnig that might explain the copying problem20:29
* ddaa curses libsvn20:29
* ddaa double curses libsvn20:31
ddaaokay, I got a lead on both problems20:31
ignashard to fix ?20:31
ddaaif my hunches are right, they are easy to fix20:32
ddaawant to know about it?20:32
ddaaignas: what kind of encoding are your guys using?20:33
ddaaThe "invalid token" problem is reminiscent of something that affected bzr-svn as well.20:33
ddaalibsvn supposedly gives utf8 for everything.20:33
ddaaand bzrlib except utf8 for everything20:34
ddaaexcept libsvn gives utf8 for everything, except when it does not20:34
ddaaand bzrlib apparently does not go out of its way to check input validity20:34
ddaaeverything as in commit messages and authors20:34
ddaaso fixing the latter should be a simple matter of trying to roundtrip the commit metadata through a utf8 decode-encode.20:35
ddaaand falling back to ascii-decode with replacement of high bit characters20:36
ignasi think we might even have ^X^S commited in a commit message  because of using a different editor ;)20:36
ddaaThat should be valid utf8 :)20:36
ddaaThe first one is of the same kind20:36
ddaathe low-level libsvn function to get file data is svn_ra_get_file20:37
ddaawhich puts data in a stream object20:37
ddaathough it appears it does not rewind the stream20:37
ddaaso the caller has to to get the data20:37
ddaathe code that does file modifications and additions does it20:38
ddaabut the code that does recursive directory copies does not20:38
ddaaand this browsers/ file was added by copying the browsers directory20:38
* ddaa triple curses libsvn for good measure20:39
ignasyes, this module was developed in a separate branch20:39
ddaanot sure how GPL.txt ended up empty20:39
ddaamaybe it travelled through a directory copy at some point20:39
ignasthe trunk -> old_trunk, branch -> trunk20:40
ddaabranch copying is treated differently20:40
ddaait's done by bzr branch20:40
ignasthe ckeck in that did the copy20:41
ddaamh... no, that would not exercise this case...20:42
ddaaanyway, I'll hack something about those two problems today20:42
ignasthank's a lot :)20:42
ddaawe'll see if things go better20:42
ignasyou can even try it out on the repository jinty has linked to i think20:43
ignasit's more up to date20:43
ddaafor now, I'll just play with the old one20:43
ddaait's already long enough to process for my taste :)20:43
ddaaso... the name conflict problem is a bit more complicated to fix, because it involves digging a fair bit into bzrlib stuff I'm not familiar with.20:44
ddaaSo I'm not sure when I'll be able to tackle it.20:45
ignasi see20:45
ddaanot hard, but may be a day of work20:45
ignasquite a lot especially if one is busy20:45
ddaawell... if I'm at work, making you happy is one of my top priorities20:46
ddaathe problem is more that I'm on leave next week and second week of Jan, as I mentioned before.20:46
mgedminignas: a perfect opportunity to brandish your amazon wishlist ;-)20:46
ddaanot sure I'll  be able to expense it, but maybe SteveA can use some leverage :)20:47
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ddaaI just realised that the code probably ignores all keyword and filename expansion.21:02
ddaahu, I mean keyword expansion and line ending conversion21:03
ddaais this a problem?21:03
mgedminI don't think that will be a problem21:15
mgedmin(assuming that no \r characters suddenly appear in our .py files)21:15
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ddaaactually, sorry21:21
ddaait seems that problem is not with libsvn not giving utf821:21
ddaabut with bzrlib not escaping control characters before stuffing them in xml21:21
ddaaignas: so you were right, the ^X^S thing was probably the culprit21:22
ignasi guess some of such things should be used as svn-bzr test cases as well21:27
ddaayes, it's where I'm copying the code from :)21:27
ddaaI actually was the first one to complain about those bad revisions because they cause errors in the launchpad mirroring system.21:28
* ddaa takes one curse from libsvn and gives it to bzrlib21:28
* ddaa kicks svn2bzr again21:41
ignas./.bzr/repository/knits/60/ vs ./.bzr/repository/knits/5b/ - is the 5 digit number a file id ?21:41
ddaaI think the whole thing before the .knit is the file id21:42
ddaasomething like "file name when first added"-"date when added"-"randomness"-"no clue"21:44
ddaamaybe the "no clue" thing is some serial number used to avoid having producing too much randomness when adding many files21:45
ddaas/producing/to produce/21:45
* ddaa vaguely recalls this being discussed a long time ago21:45
ignashmm, i see21:46
ddaayou can see the file-id for a file with "bzr inventory --show-ids FILE"21:52
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