IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2006-11-20

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jfrocheignas: hello! seems i have to define security & crowd for
jfrochewhere do you think i should define this ?15:09
ignasnot sure you need a separate crowd ...15:10
ignaswhat is the __parent__ for OnlineHelp instances ?15:10
ignasoh, then yes you'll need a custom crowd15:11
jfrochelisppaste5: url15:11
lisppaste5To use the lisppaste bot, visit and enter your paste.15:11
ignaswhere are help classes/ viewlets stored ?15:11
ignasin the filesystem that is15:11
lisppaste5jfroche pasted "Traceback: crowd ?" at
jfrochemean /Zope3/src/zope/app/onlinehelp/browser15:13
ignasmean src/schooltool/help/15:14
ignasyou could add a or maybe even add the class to in there15:17
ignasand i don't know if you want help to be available to anyone just make that crowd always return True15:18
jfrocheok thanks15:19
ignasif it's something more complex, like if you want permissions depend on some object stored as the attribute15:19
ignaslook at calendar permissions (they depend on relationships of their __parent__s)15:19
jfrochei ll begin with a simple one15:20
jfrochethanks for the link15:20
jfrocheignas: should I use AnonymousCrowd & anonymous and do a security:allow for the onlinehelp interface ?15:31
ignasjfroche: neat, you don't need a new crowd, just do:15:33
ignas  <allow15:33
ignas      interface=".interfaces.IOnlineHelp"15:33
ignas      crowds="anonymous"15:33
ignas      permission="schooltool.view" />15:33
jfrocheis it ok ?15:33
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jfrocheuhm unfortunately not15:41
jfrocheit does a crowd.contains(participation.principal)15:41
jfrochebut anonymous crowd has no contains implemented15:41
ignasa bug15:42
ignaschange AnonymousCrowd(Crowd) to AnonymousCrowd(_GroupCrowd) ...15:43
jfrocheignas: could you look at
jfrocheand click on help15:52
jfrochethis is not the expected behaviour i guess ?15:52
ignaspassword/username ?15:52
ignasas the list of groups is not public15:52
jfrocheadding you15:53
jfrochelogin: ignas15:55
jfrochepwd: see your mailbox15:55
ignasstill can't see the group list15:56
ignasit's set to visible only to managers by default15:56
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ignasand what seems to be non standard? the menu thingy ?15:58
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jfrocheyep not schooltool anymore15:59
jfrocheif you click on "Person Container - Contents"16:00
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jfrocheyou get the schooltool helpfile16:00
ignashmm, seems to be related to the usage of tal templates as the help file16:03
ignastry debuging getContextualTopicView16:03
ignasand seeing what view class is used in the RST case and what class is used in pt case16:04
ignasand look at zcml declarations in configure.zcml16:05
ignasthere seem to be 2 different views index.html and contexthelp.html16:05
ignasmaybe you have registered the thing as OnlineHelp and shyould have used OnlineHelpTopic ?16:06
jfrocherst uses src/schooltool/help ; pt uses /Zope3/src/zope/app/onlinehelp/browser/onlinehelp_macros.pt16:08
jfrochei prefer the one in Zope3/src/zope/app/onlinehelp/browser/ as you can use a menu there16:09
ignaswell, you can make them use the same style16:10
ignasthough maybe including a macro for online_help for schooltool16:10
ignasin the schooltool skin would be better16:11
ignasas you could style it to match the visual style of schooltool16:11
jfrochenice, i ll do that then16:11
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* th1a shuffles some papers16:30
th1aHow's it going everyone?16:30
ignasso so16:31
th1aHi ignas.16:31
jfrochehello th1a16:32
th1aSo what's up in Vilnius, ignas?16:33
ignaseverything's too slow for my liking, lyceum is still in the process of reviewing contract :/16:33
ignasi have started working on event refactoring16:33
ignasso now i have events comming from both sources16:33
ignastimetable and section calendar16:33
ignasand it even works16:34
ignasso there is booking for individual events16:34
ignaswhat's missing is all the dynamic updates for these events16:34
ignasand the edit from tuned for timetable event :/16:34
ignasgot a bit stuck on it16:34
ignastoo much editform/addform magic16:35
th1aWhat are the cases for dynamic updates?16:35
ignaswell, when you update term - events should be moved around a bit16:35
jintyhi all16:35
th1aHI jinty.16:35
ignaswhen you add/remove activities events should get removed, added16:35
th1aYes, there would be some magic there.16:37
th1ajfroche: How have things been going for you?16:37
jfrochehello th1a i am diving into onlinehelp16:38
jfrocheskinning the pt view of online help16:38
jfrocheto get translation of onlinehelp16:38
jfrocheonlinehelp is important for Denis and Nicolas16:38
jfrocheso that they will be able to add more help file16:38
jfrochein french16:38
jfrocheexcept that no news from authorities16:39
jfrochegot my emails ?16:39
th1aHm... yes I'm just reading them right now.16:39
th1aI'm afraid my sleep schedule is out of whack again, and I'm rolling out of bed right before the meeting ;-)16:39
th1aSo yeah, we should also discuss the specific goals for your meeting with ignas.16:40
ignasnot that i had much time to think about it16:40
th1aAnd I can email Mark about the Malone thing if I know what file I should be pointing them to.16:41
ignasit will depend on my progress with academical groups and timetables16:41
th1aignas: That makes two of us, but we should brainstorm.16:41
jfrochewhat would be a major step for schooltool users ?16:41
th1ajfroche: Are you making progress on the help translation front?16:42
ignasth1a: one thing might be the gradebook, yet it's a bit too much for 2-3 days of work ...16:42
jfrochein general i have the new french translation installed on the 3 schooltool instances16:42
jfrochei have to explain to Denis and Nicolas how they can translate the string that are not translated yet16:43
ignasth1a: i was thinking of looking at the requirements of jfroche's schools as well16:43
ignasso i could help jfroche to start working on them16:43
ignasif there will be any concrete things16:43
ignasth1a: now that i think about it - refactoring person stuff into something sane maybe ...16:44
th1aignas: I was thinking the same thing.16:44
ignasthe default idea of "title" is driving me nuts16:44
th1aPerson is a good place to start.16:44
ignasand demographics didn't actually touch that piece16:45
jfrocheby the way in person : "full name" shouldnt it computed ?16:45
ignasjfroche: yes it should, yet - it is not because of a lot of historical reasons16:45
ignaslike sorts by titloe16:45
ignasname and surname being in the nameinfo attribute of a person16:45
ignasand sanitizing that part of application would be a nice thing to do16:46
th1aIt's one of the pieces people interact with first and most often.16:46
th1aIf you both could figure out what demographic data your schools need, you could work on that, too.16:46
ignascsv import forms for persons don't make much sense too at the moment16:47
ignasth1a: i would like to have a sane base class for person first16:47
th1aOK.  Sane persons, then.16:47
mgedminISanePerson looks as if you pressed shift instead of n16:48
th1aWhat day's your flight, ignas?16:49
ignasback on Dec 216:50
th1aOK, so we can discuss the agenda next week as well.16:51
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th1aDiscuss the goals for the meeting.16:52
th1aBut focusing on Person is a good overarching goal.16:52
jfrocheth1a: tomorrow and wednesday (mainly wednesday) i will be away16:52
jfrochethere is Plone conference in Belgium and I am speaker16:52
th1aThis is a holiday week Thursday & Friday here (Thanksgiving).16:53
th1aI'll be around though.  We aren't traveling this year.16:53
th1ajfroche: Just to be clear, do you know what your next steps are with this help transation stuff, or are you stuck?16:54
jfrocheyep i have clear idea of what i have to do16:54
jfrocheignas: helps me a lot when i am stuck16:54
th1aYes, I'm glad to see you two working together.16:55
th1aWe've always had a lot less of that than I thought we ought to.16:55
th1aIt seems to be a side effect of hiring separate teams of contractors.16:55
jfrochei am very excited 'cause i learn a lot from z316:55
th1aExcited is good.16:56
th1aSo there will be a brief CanDo meeting today in three hours... I guess 1800 UTC.16:57
ignasthat one is easy to fix ;)16:57
th1aignas:  With SchoolTool, the first step is a killer.16:57
th1aSo if either of you are still around, it would be a chance to say 'hi.'16:58
th1aShould I give a little historical context for CanDo?16:59
ignaswould be useful i guess17:00
th1aOK, the cast of characters:17:00
th1ajelkner = Jeff Elkner17:00
th1aHe's a long time teacher of Python programming at Arlington High School outside Washington DC.17:01
th1adwelsh = David Welsh17:01
th1aWhoops (Jeff's school is Yorktown High School)17:01
th1aDave Welsh is a TV & media production (something like that) teacher at the Arlington Career Academy.17:02
th1apcardune = Paul Carduner17:02
th1aHe's a former student of Jeff's, college student now, lead developer of CanDo and a very slick programmer.17:02
th1aVery fast and good on the web design side of things, too.17:03
th1aThen there is eldar = Eldar (long last name I can't spell)17:04
th1aHe's a current student of Jeff's, a senior.  Has worked on CanDo for a couple years.17:04
th1aWill Dickerson is a junior and an up and coming SchoolTool developer.17:04
th1aAnd eukreign is Lex,17:04
th1aanother former student of Jeff's who is a professional Zope programmer and now doing some paid work on CanDo.17:05
th1aSo CanDo was started, like, three years ago to help dwelsh do competency tracking.17:05
th1aIn his program, everything is broken down to specific skills his students have to acquire.17:06
th1a"Putting the battery in the camera." etc.17:06
th1aThey're so detailed, it is basically impossible without an automated system.  It is a common need.17:07
th1aSo Dave got together with Jeff and they started putting Jeff's best students on the problem.17:07
th1aI met Jeff at PyCon right after I got this job, and sold him on SchoolTool.17:07
th1aNow, two years later, CanDo is being used in several schools, and more importantly, they've secured several streams of grant funding.17:08
th1aFrom state, local, and potentially national sources.17:08
th1aBeing right next to Washington, DC, has some advantages for that kind of thing.17:09
th1aThey've been really successful because they've been able to keep things close to the users and get the kind of rapid feedback you want with XP.17:09
th1aAnd dwelsh is a great XP customer.17:09
th1aHe's played that role very well.17:10
th1aHe's also a great salesman and evangelist, so he's really promoted CanDo locally and gotten the funding to really get this going.17:10
th1aSo at this point, they're close to having met their core requirements and are wondering what to do next.17:11
jfrochewhy does schooltool and cando are so separeted projects ?17:11
th1aThat's where that email I forwarded to you on Friday came in.17:11
ignasjfroche: different sources, totally different goals even ...17:12
th1aWell, competency tracking isn't one of our immediate objectives.17:12
ignasthe initial idea of schooltool was emm, and "interesting" one17:12
ignasfrom my view point17:12
ignasand it affected a lot of design/management decisions17:12
th1aImpractically broad.17:12
ignaseven the platform choice17:12
th1aMark doesn't think small.17:13
th1aBut what I've always imagined is a SchoolTool ecosystem like the Plone ecosystem,17:13
th1awhere we'll have lots of third party products.17:14
ignashow old is plone ?17:14
ignashow many developers worked on plone ?17:14
jfroche4 years17:14
jfrochea lot17:14
th1aPlone is what, five years old?  And its built directly on Zope CMS.17:14
th1aI mean.17:14
ignaswere these people familiar with other CMS'es i mean like have built them before at least a few times ?17:15
th1aWhich had a few years of development in it.17:15
ignasbuilding a framework for applications without the actual experience of building applications is very difficult :/17:15
ignasi am putting a lot of hopes into the GROK idea17:16
th1aAnyhow, as I was pointing out in that email on Friday, CanDo is sort of running ahead of the rest of SchoolTool, since they're able to focus on functionality for one school,17:16
th1ainstead of worrying about things like i18n in help files.17:16
th1aignas:  Yes, I'm really, really hoping we can integrate GROK.17:16
th1aThat may save our ass.17:16
ignaswhat ? GROK or extra resources from CanDo ?17:17
th1aBoth, actually.17:17
jfrocheguess they know very well schooltool ?17:18
ignaswell, it will be at least a year or so until we can think about GROK i'd say ...17:18
th1aOh... I just remembered, the CanDo talk later today is actually a phone call, not an IRC chat.17:18
th1aPart of working with teachers.17:19
th1aThey tend to not use IRC.17:19
th1aAnyhow, I had a phone call with jelkner and dwelsh on Friday.17:19
th1adwelsh suggested that they should focus on resource booking for a while, because it is an issue that is important to him and the rest of his school.17:20
th1aA career academy has lots of equipment to keep track of.17:20
ignastimetables + resources or calendars + resources ?17:21
th1aSo they should be able to breally flesh out that functionality which we've left about 80% done.17:21
th1aignas: It really needs to be both.17:21
th1aSo I told him your refactoring will be shaking out.17:21
th1aPerhaps in the short run they can focus on calendars.17:22
ignasin that case if they want some guidance i can always branch out my refactoring and try to accomodate any help on specific things they can provide17:22
ignasjust that some design decisions seem difficult to me, and i am not sure i can easily delegate them :/17:22
ignasif they would come up with specific requirements for the system17:23
ignasi think i could guide them in the direction most useful for schooltool core ...17:24
th1aWell, the question becomes how to coordinate this.17:24
th1aThere is plenty of UI level stuff that could be done for resource booking.17:24
ignasmost of it is difficult without touching the underlying mechanics ...17:25
ignaswhat examples of UI stuff you have in mind ?17:25
ignaspagination of resources in booking views17:26
th1aWell, I'm not sure exactly what Dave would want.17:26
ignasfiltering by resource type (available or not) ?17:26
ignasclasses for different equipment17:26
th1aThe idea is still to take me out of the job of guessing requirements.17:26
ignasso as soon as they'll know what they need improved17:27
ignasi'll help them with whatever i can ...17:27
th1aSo I guess we have to figure out how to get the conversation going between you and dwelsh and his programmers.17:27
ignasnot sure what's involved17:27
th1aAre you OK with talking on the phone in English?17:27
ignasnot that i have tried doing that ;)17:27
th1aI'll discuss setting up a call today when I talk to dwelsh.17:28
th1aLast thing...17:29
th1aIt seems like we need to set a deadline for these schools to make a decision.17:29
th1aI suppose we should have done that all along.17:29
th1aBut I need to send a budget to Mark for next year.17:30
th1aCan we tell the schools we need a decision by Dec. 8th?17:30
ignasmaybe that would work. It's partially my fault :/ i am finding it difficult to concentrate on multiple things at the same time so i am either talking and organizing or programming ...17:31
jfrocheok for me too, i have other school ready that doesn't need such authorizations17:31
th1aLa Futaie?17:31
jfrocheanother one17:31
th1aA third mystery school?17:31
jfrochespoke with political who have school near to Charleroi17:32
jfrochehe will be able to push me17:32
th1aIs this a private school?17:33
jfrochebut i would like first to try 100% for Denis school17:33
jfrochekind of, it doesn't depend on higher layers for such decisions17:33
th1aBut basically, we know you'll have *somebody* to work with next year.17:33
th1aWhich is helpful for everyone concerned.17:34
th1aOK.  I think that's it.17:34
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:34
jfrocheyou want me to announce it to Denis / Nico ?17:35
th1aYes, please.17:35
th1aWait, what's "it?"17:35
jfrochesorry ?17:36
th1aAnnounce the deadline or the new school.17:38
jfrocheannounce the deadline17:38
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th1aHow'd things go on Saturday, aelkner17:42
aelknerWill and I started building messages with the register message.  We also started doing doctests.  Then we looked at your code, and I taought him how servers work.17:44
aelknerWe could use some more design then we have a the moment.17:45
aelknerParticularly, in the end we should have a message builder module that can be used by both the ZIS and any agent.17:45
th1aYes, in the long run.17:46
aelknerAnother idea would be to have a document that breaks down the SIF spec into the messages that need be passed around.17:47
th1aIn the short run, I wouldn't mind having two independent implementations, because you're actually testing two implementations of the spec.17:47
aelknerThere is so much verbage there that we don';t need to write code.17:47
aelknerWe can develop our code completely independently if you like.17:48
th1aFrankly, I don't feel super strongly about it either way.17:48
aelknerWill is coming into class at 10:56 and will be joining us here.17:48
aelknerI'm still restling with two technical issues: 1) the fact that the svn co doesn't work on our server. 2) the import transaction problem17:50
aelknerthla: isn't the python-zodb part of zope's source?  I don't find anything when I do a find . -name 'transaction.*' from the /usr/local/src/Zope3.17:56
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wdickersare you there aelkner?17:57
aelknerHey Will.17:57
wdickersHello. Where did we leave off Saturday?17:58
aelknerI moved the source over to maddog, so we don't have to fix our svn problem ther for now.17:58
aelknerWe still have the import transaction problem which I was looking into presently.17:58
aelknerIt's in my home directory, BTW.18:00
wdickersalright, I'm there18:00
th1aHi wdickers.18:02
aelknerIt looks like we're going to need sudo priveledges to install lxml there.18:02
aelknerTom, how does zope work without the zodb?18:03
aelknerWill, Jeff said the machine her found for maddog was a sparc, isn't that right?18:04
th1aaelkner: What do you mean "how?"18:04
th1aHow well?18:04
wdickersUmm, I don't remember. I thought it was Solaris though18:04
th1aOr does it?18:05
aelknerI tried to find transaction.* in the Zope3 source and got nothing.  That's why I was wondering how Zope3 worked.18:06
aelknerThe good news is that I have sudo priveleges on maddog.18:07
wdickersOh, you do? That's good news18:07
aelknerYeh, I'm looking into installing lxml now.18:09
th1aThere is some weird and somewhat controversial reason transaction is a top level import instead of zodb.transaction or whatever you'd expect it to be.18:11
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aelknerI wish I knew where was so we could alter our pythonpath to find it.18:13
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aelknerWhat does one do when "sudo apt-get install python-lxml" does nothing an returns the command prompt?18:15
wdickersAre you sure you have sudo privelidges?18:16
wdickersMaybe you could download it from here?18:17
aelknerCould you do the download and copy it over to maddog?18:17
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wdickersLemme try18:19
aelknerIt's weird, but it looks like I'm not in the sudoers file after all.  Strange that it didn't complain when I did a "sudo su -".18:20
wdickersIt doesn't for me either, I input my password, but it just goes right back to my account18:21
aelknerHow's the download going?18:24
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wdickersYeah. And I'm not sure if that's the right package. Because the file only says 'import transaction' and then uses 'transaction.commit' and the only commit I can find is in the file and the class Transaction18:24
aelknerCould you copy it over to maddog so that I can look at it?18:25
wdickerswait, nvm, it's in the __init__.py18:25
aelkneryour home dir is fine for now.18:25
aelknerI'm going to look into copying lxml over from my machine.18:26
wdickersIt's in there, but I'm not sure about untarring it18:27
aelknerIf it's in your home directory, you should be ok to untar it.18:29
wdickersYeah, but I think there's nothing in it or something18:30
wdickersThere, I changed the permissions, you try to untar it18:31
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aelknerYeh, it just returns the command prompt, right?18:33
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aelknerI'm going to copy lxml and transaction from my machine into the tinyzis directory in my account.  This way we don't need Jeff for sudo priveleges.18:34
wdickersI thought lxml had to be installed?18:35
aelknerYeh, I copied the lxml directory to the tinyzis directory for now since we don't have sudo rights.18:38
aelknerTry python
wdickersnope, failure getting lxml18:40
aelknerMe, too.  I have no idea what ELF file data is.18:40
wdickersWell in the lxml package you have to use ./install or something like that18:41
wdickerswell I'm off. See you tomorrow18:41
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aelknerJeff, could I get sudo rights on maddog, please?  I need to apt-get install stuff.19:40
jelkneraelkner: what do you need?19:40
jelkneri can install for you19:40
aelknerpython-lxml and python-zodb.19:40
jelkneraelkner: python-lxml - done19:42
jelknerE: Couldn't find package python-zodb19:42
aelknerIf you google it, you'll find debian packages out there.19:43
jelknerok, i just installed python2.4-zodb19:44
aelknerTom, should I be getting "No handlers found for logger ZODB.FileStorage" when I run
aelknerJeff, it might be that we need to install one more package.  Let's see what Tom says.19:46
aelknerI am getting "SecureZISServer successfully started." after the error message, so maybe we can proceed in the meantime without loging.19:47
aelknerJeff, whn I use vi, I get options followed by hit enter to continue before it opens the file.  Do you know why?19:50
jelknerok, i was on the phone with welsh, but now i'm back19:56
jelknereukreign: hey lex, are you here?19:56
eukreigni'm always here :-D19:57
jelknercould you and paul start off the meeting by summarizing the cando06 bug situation?19:58
th1aaelkner: That comes up occasionally, I'm not sure what its practical significance is.19:58
aelknerthla: if it's not a problam,19:58
aelknerI won't worry about it.19:58
th1aaelkner: I think it is referring to the ZODB's logging not TinyZIS's.19:58
aelknerright.  I thought maybe we need one more package.19:59
eukreignme and paul plan on meeting up tomorrow afternoon to work on bugs, that's all i know19:59
* jelkner is on the phone w paul carduner20:01
jelknerhe is having network issues20:01
jelkneri'll type for him until he can connect20:02
jelknerTo begin - status of CanDo06 bugs20:02
jelknerpaul thinks he and lex can squash all outstanding 06 bugs by tomorrow.20:03
jelknernext iteam: the journaling system20:04
jelknereldar spent much of yesterday working on it20:04
th1aAre we doing this here or on the phone?20:04
jelknerhe says it needs to be rewritten from the ground up20:05
jelknerth1a: here20:05
th1aignas: ayt?20:05
jelkneri can't explain why that is so, and eldar isn't here20:06
jelknerso the important thing is getting eldar and paul communicating20:06
jelknerfor now, i agreed to stop using the journaling system until they figure out what to do20:06
th1aignas: (the journaling system is kind of like a weblog in CanDo)20:07
ignasweblog ?20:07
jelknerwe are looking for 3 things:20:07
th1aYou want all three?20:08
jelknerforums will be used for whole class discussions20:08
ignaslyceum wanted something like a messaging system built into schooltool iirc20:08
th1aThe distinction between forums and blogs in this kind of system gets confusing.20:08
jelknerjournals for direct student-teacher communication20:08
jelknerand blogs for students to personally post notes, collaborate with other students, etc20:09
jelknerin the journal, i need some kind of queuing system, that notifies me when there are journals to read20:09
jelkneri don't want to have to scan all 100+ journals each time i grade20:10
aelknerjelkner: why can't the blog be used to do what you have planned for the forum?20:10
ignasis developing a custom forum for schooltool really nescessary ? i mean aren't there Zope3 alternatives for that that might be integrated ?20:12
ignasas for the journal, won't simple mailing built into schooltool work?20:12
jelknersee the following on launchpad:
ignaswith email notifications about important messages if necessary ...20:13
th1aI don't know that there are polished Zope 3 forums at this point.20:13
jelknerignas: this has to be dead easy for the teacher and student to use20:14
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jelkneremail is not a good way to do this20:14
ignasjelkner: i know, that's why i was thinking of something like private person 2 person messages + ability to "push" important announcments in some more intrusive way ...20:14
jelkneri see a session working like this: teacher log into schooltool and is presented with a "queueu" of things to be done20:14
ignasyes, new messages in his inbox ... how would journal be easier ?20:15
ignasinbox being not email inbox20:15
ignasbeing schooltool inbox20:15
th1aTeachers aren't necessarily good at sorting a lot of email.20:15
jelknerthis would be threaded20:16
jelknerthe second feature request was for students to be able to check a box in there journal labelled "submit for review"20:16
jelknerthat way they choose with the click of a single button when to alert the teacher that they need to do something20:17
jelkneralso, as the system becomes more refined, the journal entry could be linked to specifc competencies or skill drivers20:17
ignasi see20:17
jelknerthen another click of a single button could take the teacher to the grading screen20:17
jelknerour experience is that teachers (like me ;-) will only use cando if it really saves them time20:18
jelknerthis whole process needs to be *fast*20:18
pcarduneyou could even have a mini grading widget for the related skill driver or competency20:18
pcarduneright next to the journal entry20:19
jelknernow you are talking! ;-)20:19
jelknerok, i think that covers journalling for now20:19
jelknerwho should paul talk to about this once he touches base with eldar?20:20
pcarduneWe would want to develop a queing interface that is accessible to schooltool components20:21
jelknerpcardune: can you run whatever you are thinking about by ignas before you start?20:21
jelknerok, i only have 9 minutes until i have to leave to my appointment20:22
ignasnot sure i can be of much use though, as this one is closely integrated with CanDo functionality20:22
jelknerignas: i understand, but just to keep you in the loop20:22
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jelknerlet me share a few things before i go20:22
pcardunewell there are two things... linking competencies to journal entries, which is cando specific, and having a queu of things to do (could be useful in schooltool)20:23
pcardunethat was just an aside to ignas20:23
pcarduneplease continue20:23
jelkner1. welsh and i disagree on the importance of doctest quiz20:23
th1ajournals in general could be a generic SchoolTool component.20:23
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jelkneri think i can bring him around, but it is a priority for me20:24
jelknerwe worked on it last summer but it has been dormant since then20:24
jelkneri want to figure out how to actually make it usable20:24
jelkneri love using doctests linked explicitely to python programming competencies in my classes20:25
jelkneri want a way to automate that in cando20:25
jelknerthe only real question is who should work on that?20:25
pcarduneexpand on the existing feature specification20:25
jelkneri will20:25
jelkneris that an eldar task?20:25
pcarduneif he wants to20:25
jelknerif we get the 06 bugs under control does it make sense for paul and lex to do journalling and have eldar do doctest?20:26
pcardunehe has the skills to do it I think, and if not he can ask me or anyone else20:26
pcardunethat works for me20:26
th1aignas: The doctest quiz is a component that allows Jeff to create online programming assignments in the form of doctests that are graded automatically.20:26
ignasth1a: is it safe?20:27
jelknerignas: yes, and it rocks!20:27
pcardunejelkner, the problem with doctest is that it wont expand cando's user base20:27
jelknerpcardune: not quite true20:27
pcardune(as much as other features)20:27
jelknerwe need to show cando begin used on the evaluation end of the competency equation20:27
th1aignas:  Not entirely in my opinion, but it is accessible only to jelkner's students so if they do a dos attack or something, they're his to punish.20:27
ignasjelkner: how do you protect from sys.exit()20:28
jelknerthe reality is, that only i will be doing that this year20:28
jelknerand i'll be using doctests20:28
pcarduneignas, it uses zope's restricted python20:28
ignaspcardune: oh20:28
jelknersame mechanism that allowed for python scripts in zope220:28
ignasi see20:28
pcardunejelkner: what about all the people at the career center who are doing competency evaluation?20:29
th1adwelsh is also interested in really finishing the resource booking component, which would of course be very useful to us.20:29
jelknerthat brings us to the last big agenda item20:29
pcardunehow to get more developers?20:30
jelknerwhich i have 2 minutes to summarize, and then you all can take if from there20:30
jelkner1. we want to get more involved with schooltool proper20:30
jelknerwe agreed with tom yesterday that aps needs two things from schooltool immediately:20:30
jelkner1. resource management20:31
jelkner2. sif20:31
jelknertom, alan, and will are already working on sif20:31
aelknerI will take the task of writing sif agents.20:31
jelknerso we need folks to work on resource management20:31
jelknerthe last thing is bringing in new blood20:32
jelkneri've been having discussions with tj science and tech about partnering with them20:32
jelknerwe will have to see how that goes, but we need to be ready to do some more training (paul, u ready for another on-line zope3 class?) if it does20:33
jelkneri've got to run20:33
jelknersame time next week20:33
pcardunei suppose so20:33
jelknerpcardune: don't sound so enthused! ;-)20:33
jelknerthis time we will limit it to developers on the project20:34
jelknerso it should go better20:34
jelknerok, gotta run...20:34
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th1aSo one thing we have to decide is who is going to work out how to do properly threaded HTTP requests from a SchoolTool instance, and when that task should come up in the sequence for SIF development.20:35
ignasth1a: what is the most basic operation that schooltool will find useful from sif ?20:36
th1aKeeping users in sync with other apps.20:37
ignasusers as in Schooltool Person ?20:37
ignasdo you have any particular apps in mind ?20:37
th1aThat's just the most basic.20:37
th1aInteroperating with Moodle would be huge.20:38
th1aWe can share a lot of data with Moodle using SIF.20:38
ignasi know20:38
ignasbut i like starting small20:38
aelknermee too20:38
ignasdo you have an actual moodle instance running ?20:39
ignaswith users and stuff ?20:39
th1aWell, Moodle doesn't do SIF yet either.20:39
ignasthe perfect case would be an application that already shares some data with schooltool indirectly and does SIF20:39
th1aIn Arlington, they'd be talking to their real SIS, which is perhaps more immediately relevant.20:40
th1aAnd it supports SIF.20:40
ignasso i'd say that having HTTP is very important, i mean the first thing to do would be to actually share Person information with that sis20:40
ignasand see what are issues, problems, usecases etc20:41
th1aI understand the problem very well.20:41
th1aI just don't understand threads very well.20:41
th1aSo if someone else aelkner, ignas, pcardune, whomever, can wire that up, I'm ready to roll.20:41
ignasi just think that the problem will not be the SIF protocol, but will be the ways of schooltool pushing/pulling data, and various thread issues20:42
th1aYes.  Particularly getting the threading right.20:42
jintytransaction issues as well20:43
th1aSo we can send out HTTP requests without blocking the server.20:43
th1ajinty: Yes.20:43
ignasthe amount of available qualified developer hours is already negative from what i understand :/20:45
aelknerI can devote 100% of my time to this, but I have a learning curve.20:46
pcardunei dont really know much about threading20:46
aelknerI suggested adding threading after we already had some working agents, and Tom thought that was fine.20:47
aelknerI thought I'd create some python modules that talked to the ZIS and then we could import those modules later into a zope object.20:48
aelknerThreading shouldn't be too difficult.20:49
aelknerBut I think we need some real world agents before we worry about performace/blocking issues.20:49
th1aI just bring it up now because it is pretty much orthogonal to understanding SIF in general.20:49
aelknerThat's cool.  We will keep it in mind.20:50
th1aI don't want ignas to spend time on this.20:50
aelknerthla: you and I should pair at some point.20:50
th1aAnyhow, we can put it off...20:50
aelknerFor now, I'm developing on maddog without being able to use the svn repository,20:51
th1aaelkner: Yes.  I guess you'll be at PyCon?20:51
th1aignas: You're probably going to PyCon, btw.20:51
aelknerSure will.20:51
aelknerBut we have a couple of months until then.20:51
ignasth1a: neat, hope they'll give me the US visa :)20:52
aelknerI'm open to coming up to R.I. to pair with you if you think that would help.20:52
th1aWell, yeah, there is that.20:52
th1aaelkner: I'm sure it would help if you want to give it a shot.20:52
th1aThings are kind of chaotic here though.  We've got construction going on and a baby on the way.20:53
aelknerI'm moving to Philadelphia in a couple of weeks, so I was thinking sometime in the middle of Dec.20:53
aelknerStill in the meantime we could pair here.20:54
th1aWell, we'll see.20:54
aelknerWe could use your help figuring out the svn problem.20:54
th1aIt is beyond me.20:56
aelknerAre there people you could concsult with?20:56
ignasaelkner: what is the problem ?20:57
aelknerIK just sent you a note.20:58
ignasIK ?21:00
th1aignas: I'm using a trac host that has uses a digital certificate with an not matching hostnmae.21:00
th1aWhich only aelkner's svn client seems to notice or care about.21:00
ignaswhats the url of the repository ?21:00
th1aThere may be some config file for svn.21:00
ignasand what is the message ?21:03
ignasthe message that svn gives ?21:04
aelknerforward hime the note.21:04
ignaslisppaste5: url21:04
lisppaste5To use the lisppaste bot, visit and enter your paste.21:04
aelknerI'm looking for svn config in the meantime.21:04
ignasif it's not private21:04
ignasand do svn --version please21:05
ignasif it's unix config is in ~/.subversion/config21:05
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th1aI have to go take a shower.  ttyl.21:06
aelkneryes. it's unix.21:07
aelknerOn the machine that it works, the config has everyting commented out.21:07
ignasi'd suspect the auth catalog in there though ...21:08
ignasnot the config21:08
ignasthough you can paste the offending config file to lisppaste too21:08
ignasyou can always try mv .subversion .subversion.backup and svn co on the url ...21:09
ignasthat would tell you whether the problem is in svn or the configuration21:09
aelknerStill the same problem.21:10
aelknerDid Tom forward you my note with the errors?21:10
aelknerI could.  What's your email?21:11
ignascouldn't go to or there is private information in the note ?21:12 tohugh21:12
aelknerI sent the note.  I don't understand what you mean with the url.21:14
ignasso what's the problem ?21:14
ignasclick "p"21:14
ignasand enter21:14
ignasthat's all21:14
aelknerOne mement.21:15
ignasaelkner: read the about information21:15
ignasas for the usage examples :)21:15
* ignas clicks on
lisppaste5ignas pasted "A snippet of code to demonstrate how it works" at
lisppaste5aelkner pasted "testing..." at
ignasnow the link points to the snippet of code that i have pasted in the field21:16
ignasthus at the same time irc is not flooded with multi line message21:17
ignaswhile you can still see what people were talking about if you click on the link ...21:17
aelknerthat's very cool.21:17
ignasthey are very permanent, i mean if you paste your email or some other info that you don't want to be public - you should write an email to the author asking to delete it ...21:18
ignasas by default this information will be stored for years21:18
aelknerAnyway, hitting p worked.21:18
ignasglad to help :)21:18
aelknerBTW, I'm Alan, Jeff's brother.  What's your name?21:19
aelknerAlso, where are you located?21:19
ignasIgnas :)21:19
aelknerNo last name, lke Madonna? :)21:19
aelknerNever been there.21:20
ignaswell, i haven't been to US yet21:20
aelknerSo many places to see, so little time...21:21
aelknerCould I ask you some more svn questions?  I WHOLEFULLY ignorant.21:21
ignasyes, of course :)21:22
aelknerIf I change a file and I want to save it, what do I do?21:22
aelknerI mean that it goes to the repository.21:23
ignasyou mean commit ?21:23
aelknerYes.  But Tom hasn't given me commit access yet.21:24
ignasoh, then all you can do is svn diff > foo-bar.patch21:24
ignasand mail that patch to someone with commit rights21:24
ignasyou can't branch without commit rights too ...21:24
ignasit's not darcs nor bzr ;)21:24
aelknerI'm familiar with perforce.21:25
aelknerThat's all.21:25
ignasyou could try working with SVK tohugh as it is more complex than SVN it is not a very good option ...21:25
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aelknerCould Tom grant me commit access to a branch so that I could share code with other developers?21:26
ignaswell, in svn if you have commit rights, you don't need to branch21:27
ignasyou can just commit the code that you change21:27
ignasbranches are for more substantial chunks of development21:28
aelknerI'd like to keep it simple if at all possible.21:28
ignasso that the trunk (main version) would stay stable while you are working on something big ...21:28
ignasbranching in svn is not simple ...21:28
aelknerI think Tom might worry about something going wrong if he gives me commit access.  I could be wrong, but I'm not sure.21:29
aelknerIs there a way of reassuring him that we can recover from errant commits?21:29
ignaswell, you can always revert a commit if something goes totally wrong21:30
ignasor check out an older revision, etc.21:30
aelknerHis command for checking out the source is "svn co"  I don't see a version number.21:31
ignasif you want some specific version (not the latest) you can pass --revision parameter21:32
ignasyou should read a subversion tutorial though21:33
aelknerWill do.21:33
ignasok, i have to go21:34
ignasit's late in here ;)21:34
aelknerThanks again.21:34
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