IRC log of #schooltool for Thursday, 2006-11-02

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pcardunesrichter, I've found a philosophical question we need to ask ourselves regarding the requirements package01:26
srichterpcardune: hey there01:27
srichterpcardune: shoot01:27
pcarduneI think the best way to explain is with a code snippet01:29
srichterpcardune: also, where is jeff these days?01:31
srichterpcardune: I have not gotten the money for the sprint, but he is never around here anymore01:31
pcardunehe is teaching ;)01:31
srichterso did development stall a bit?01:32
pcarduneok, pastebin is taking forever01:32
pcarduneyeah somewhat, but we have just hired a *more* permanent developer (i.e. one that doesn't go to school) to do some work01:32
pcardunehe is eukreign01:32
pcarduneI'm just going to paste the code snippet in here - hope no one minds01:33
pcarduneHandling Sub Requirements01:33
pcardune__Note__: You probably want to skip this section, if you read this file for01:33
pcardune          the first time. It is not important for your understanding of the01:33
pcardune          package.01:33
pcarduneRequirements do not only keep track of what other requirements they are01:33
pcarduneinheriting from (in the list of bases), but also the requirements that inherit01:33
pcarduneit.  In terms of object oriented programming, Requirements keep track of both01:33
pcardunebase classes and direct subclasses.01:33
pcardune  >>> mathreq = requirement.Requirement(u"Math Requirements")01:33
pcardune  >>> algebra = requirement.Requirement(u"Algebra Requirements")01:33
pcardune  >>> algebra.addBase(mathreq)01:33
pcarduneHere we have created a general math requirement from which the algebra01:33
pcardunerequirement inherits.  All requirements that inherit from mathreq are stored01:33
pcardunein a list called subs.01:33
pcardune  >>> algebra in mathreq.subs01:33
pcardune  True01:33
pcarduneWhen we remove the mathreq base from algebra, then algebra should also be01:33
pcarduneremoved from mathreq.subs01:33
pcardune  >>> algebra.removeBase(mathreq)01:33
pcardune  >>> algebra in mathreq.subs01:33
pcardune  False01:33
pcarduneWhen requirements get deleted, they should also be removed from whatever subs01:33
pcardunethey are in.01:33
pcardune  >>> algebra.addBase(mathreq)01:33
pcardune  >>> highSchoolMath = requirement.Requirement("High School Math")01:34
pcardune  >>> highSchoolMath['algebra'] = algebra01:34
pcardune  >>> del highSchoolMath['algebra']01:34
pcardune  >>> algebra in mathreq.subs01:34
pcardune  False01:34
pcardunethis test fails on the last conditional01:34
pcarduneI think the test should fail in the context that it's in (out of zope's location paradigm)01:37
srichterright, so what you want is garbage collection01:38
pcarduneBut in practice, we don't want non locatable requirements floating around01:38
srichterso you could solve that with an event subscriber01:40
silisounds complicated.01:40
pcardunethat is a good idea... the event subscriber only gets utilized through registering it in zcml, while the requirements package can still be stand alone01:41
srichteryep, exactely01:41
srichterand because we keep track of both directions, you always know when you want to delete the ref01:42
pcarduneright, because we don't want to delete requirements that other requirements are relying on01:42
siliare you guys educators?02:06
srichterTom is an educator02:09
srichterI have taught some university courses, but I am a programmer02:10
silidone much work in the education "industry"?02:10
srichterwell, I have been around for a while02:12
srichtermost of the developers are developers, but ST works closely with schools to collect use cases02:14
silisrichter: so does schooltool have a business plan?02:44
silior is it just "let's write this neat software and hopefully it'll get used"02:44
srichterit does not need a business plan; it's open source02:44
srichter2 developers working at schools to ensure it will fit the real life02:45
siliwell, a business plan and f/oss aren't mutually exclusive :)02:48
srichterno, but it is often far too formal for Open Source02:49
srichtera business plan also means that you expect to do some business02:49
srichterthere is no interest by the Shuttlesworth Foundation to do anything else but give it awya02:50
siliwell, in my experience, schools aren't going to like the idea of "community" support. they'll need some sort of support contract. there is also the case of implementation and maintenance02:50
silii see.02:50
srichteryes, right now we commit to support in the schools we have developers02:51
srichterof course, consultants can provide support, like me or others02:51
silii see02:51
srichterand then there is Canonical, of course02:51
silithey mostly just want someone to blame02:52
sililiability, to some extent02:52
srichterSchoolTool is mainly aimed at the 3rd world where people think that something is better than nothing02:52
silinot a bad place to start02:53
srichteryes, it is the Shuttlesworth Foundation's mission02:54
silii'd love to see it in an american school.02:56
srichteryeah, Tom is working with an American School03:16
srichteralso a sub-project called CanDo is developed in VA for competency tracking03:16
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highvoltagehi. is the schooltool in edgy close to the current schooltool?17:30
mgedminI don't think so17:34
ignasis there schooltool in edgy?17:35
highvoltageit's installed by default in edubuntu17:35
th1ahighvoltage: No, it is old.17:35
highvoltagei'm working on an edubuntu derivative that's being released in about a week, and I wondered if I should consider getting a new version first.17:35
highvoltage(new version of schooltool, that is)17:35
th1aThe new versions aren't ready for production use.17:36
highvoltageth1a: are there debian packages available of the latest version?17:36
highvoltageah, I see.17:36
highvoltageok, then I could probably just as well use the old version?17:36
th1aWe're stuck at a point where we're trying to add a huge amount of stuff.17:36
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jelknerth1a: mr. hoffman, are you here?18:41
jelknerhas anyone seen tom here recently?18:42
srichterwas here earlier18:43
jelknersrichter: while i've got you, can i ask you a few questions about your book?18:45
th1ahi jelkner18:46
srichterjelkner: sure18:48
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sili_someone connecting from a school district. cool18:59
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Lumiereth1a_: here?19:59
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th1aLumiere: I'm here.20:09
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Lumierethe ACC just brought a domain online... candoskills.org20:12
LumiereI've pointed and at schooltool's site for now20:13
Lumierewhile I wait for welsh to give final instructions on it (which I am guessing will be to continue pointing them at schooltool20:14
Lumierehe's more interested in it because it's an easy name to point to for the ACC's cando server20:15
sili_th1a: curious, you said the biggest limiting factor with schooltool is based on heavy-duty oo python -- mind telling me a bit more about this? performance hit, maintainability hit, or ...20:40
th1aI mean, limiting factor in bringing interested developers like you into the fold.20:40
th1aSchoolTool is just an unusual design, in fairly fundamental ways.20:41
th1aUnless you're a Zope programmer.20:41
th1aWe use an object database,20:41
th1aZope 3 is built around some unusual abstractions, like extensive use (some say overuse) of adapters.20:42
th1aNow, I think SchoolTool and Zope 3 are well designed,20:42
th1ait has just turned out to be a big learning curve for people.20:42
sili_i guess one might experience some difficulties if not familiar with the patterns being used20:44
th1aOne reason for all this is that SchoolTool wasn't conceived as simply an SIS, but a framework for many educational apps, applicable all over the world.20:44
th1aSo compared to an SIS for a specific type of school, it is just way overengineered.20:45
Lumiereth1a: the Career Center for Arlington Public Schools...20:45
th1aLumiere: Ah.  Thanks.20:45
sili_th1a: I wonder what it would look like if one were to implement california-specific functionality20:46
th1aWell, we've tried to keep things modular under the hood, and using adapters and interfaces in particular (two pain points for newbie developers) is meant to allow easy swapping of components.20:48
th1asili_: Essentially, there is a big split in the administrative app ecosystem,20:51
th1ayou've got your free PHP apps (Moodle, elgg, etc),20:52
th1aand you've got your big honking enterprise systems in Java or .net or older stuff,20:52
th1aand we're sort of splitting the difference.20:52
th1aBut it turns out that we're too beefy for the PHP hackers to pick up,20:53
th1aand not really trusted by the people who expect everything to be Java, either.20:53
sili_so long as it functions well, i think you'll be okay20:54
th1aOnce OLPC teaches every kid in the developing world Python, we'll be in good shape.20:54
sili_(who cares about php hackers, anyway?)20:54
th1aThis has just been a problem in building a community of developers, though.20:54
sili_is there an admin logic i can use for the demo site?20:54
th1aadmin logic?20:54
sili_logic. typo.20:54
sili_login. ahhh!!!20:55
th1aUm... hopefully it is not obvious.20:55
th1aWe don't have an admin login for the demo site because then it complexifies maintaining it considerably.20:55
sili_i'll just install it.20:57
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