IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2006-10-10

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jfrochehello *, anyone knows the version of roundup installed at ?12:59
jintydpkg-query -s roundup | grep Version13:00
jintyVersion: 0.8.4-1ubuntu113:00
jfrochethanks a lot13:00
jfrochei ll ask th1a to have access on fs to this one13:01
jintyhmm, I can send you a tarball of the instance if you like13:02
jfrocheoh yes please13:04
jfrochei was about to install the same version to try out13:04
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jfrochewhats the roundup backend used for schooltool13:06
jintyhmm, filesystem I guess13:07
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jinty[USN-360-1] awstats vulnerabilities...13:17
* jinty really doesn't want awstats on the schooltool server13:18
jintyjfroche: sending you a mail with the dump13:18
jfrochejinty: about awstats: even if you setup Auth at the apache level ?13:22
jintyyeah, we can secure it. But if we avoid it, we don't have to secure it13:24
jintyUnless of course awstats brings you something that a static html system doesn't13:24
jfrochewould like to know who goes where and at which frenquency13:24
* jinty must admit that he's never used awstats13:24
jfrochei use it on 2 of my server with secure access, no problem13:25
jintyI'll have a look into it13:28
jfrochejinty: thanks again!13:40
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th1ajinty: feel free to get rid of awstats.  I've actually been using Google Analytics anyhow.16:25
th1aignas: hi.16:26
th1aHow are things in Vilnius?16:26
ignaswell, i got data imported and launched a public instance of schooltool for the teacxher i a mworking with16:26
ignasand got bitten painfully a few times16:27
ignas1) i18n does not work16:27
ignas2) gradebook is not usable, at all, in no way16:27
th1aYes, gradebook isn't usable at all right now.16:28
ignasi got a traceback with lyceums usecase16:28
ignas3) timetables are not flexible enough at the moment to support the usecase16:28
ignasthey kind of work, but need some improvement16:28
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ignasthe lithuanian usecase of groups of students in sections was not thought out well enough apparently16:29
th1aReally?  What's the problem with sections?16:29
ignaswell, problems are with groups mostly16:30
ignassection names spring to mind too16:30
th1aYes, that's needed to be fixed for a while.16:30
ignasas for the gradebook16:31
ignasis anyone working on it ?16:31
th1aThat would be you ;-)16:32
th1aStephan's dropping it was the trainwreck of the year.16:32
th1aThat's why, you know, we didn't release or deploy anything this fall.16:33
ignasoh and 4) more than 1 timetable schema *is* a common usecase (2/2 institutions i helped to migrate timetables to use them)16:33
ignasth1a: i see, i kind of managed to skip that bit of information16:33
th1aYes, I knew 4.16:33
ignasi am thinking of setting up a bug tracker for lyceum16:34
th1aThe gradebook was going to be re-written when the terms were done.16:35
th1aFinishing the terms is probably high on the list of things to do.16:35
ignasfinishing terms ?16:35
th1aSo you and jfroche_ will have to figure that out.16:35
th1aStephan and I re-designed the terms.16:36
th1aThere's a branch, which is more or less done.16:36
th1aSo here's the thing...16:36
th1aright now, terms are just bunches of dates.16:36
th1aBut terms also have to represent the structure of the school year.16:37
th1aSpecifically, they are hierarchical.16:37
th1aIn the US, you have the school year,16:37
th1aand semesters and trimesters,16:37
ignasso you added 1 more level of containers ?16:37
th1aand usually grading periods within the semesters.16:37
th1aThere are are a few default cases.16:38
th1aNot infinitely nestable, thankfully.16:38
th1aAnyhow, you can't really do grading for real without it,16:38
th1asince you have to be able to assign the grades to a given term.16:38
th1aAlthough it complicated things, of course, specifically every time the application asks for the current term.16:39
ignasshould be handled better to be usable, and i think it is possible to16:40
ignasi guess i'll discuss this with Skūpas and ask him what are their priorities16:41
th1aThat's the idea.16:41
ignasif they can use the system without grading in place it might be wise to polish other rough edges first and as soon as they can use the working parts, work heavily on grading16:41
ignasjfroche_: are you there ?16:42
th1aAnd indeed, the point of changing to this approach is that you don't have to initially make the globally applicable term implementation, but one that works for them.16:42
ignasone of the requests was to merge the attendance view and grading to make up a "teacher view" for a particular "meeting"16:44
th1aThere is a whole universe of views and reports to explore.16:45
th1aTeachers are, for some reason, more interested in what they can get out of the system than how much they can put in ;-016:46
ignasas for put in, i nearly missed todays daily meeting, because i have managed to put in a cup of Coke into my keyboard16:47
ignasirc meeting i mean16:49
ignasnow what are the plans for the contract ? should Aiste just review and translate it, or are we waiting for the french one?16:50
th1aDoes the contract seem ok to you?  Anything missing?16:52
th1aI guess I'll go over it again and send another draft if necessary tonight that could be translated tomorrow.16:55
ignas"another qualified developer will be provided by Programmers of Vilnius SchoolTool" - should ask Aiste about that as this concerns PoV not just schooltool/lyceum16:55
th1aDo you have one of the ThinkPad's with the drainage under the keyboard?16:55
ignas"provide a local server" - i didn't really understand what precicely is meant by this16:56
th1aYes, ask Aiste about that.16:56
ignasth1a: no, my thinkpad has no drainage16:56
th1aMine does, but I haven't tested it yet.16:56
th1aWe could buy them a server.16:56
th1aOr, on the other hand, would it make more sense to upgrade their internet connectivity?16:57
ignasoh, it means "local relatively to the school"16:57
th1aYes, local to them.16:58
ignasas for the connectivity, i'll ask Skūpas about it, though conectivity costs money per month thus after the end of the project they'd be left to pay the increased bill16:59
th1aI just thought I'd mention that it would be a possibility.17:00
th1aIf it was actually more efficient.17:00
th1aSo what's your work status, ignas?17:02
ignasdidn't touch UI for the last few days, as I was working on fixing some minor glitches in schooltool, mangling setuptools to allow instalation of schooltool without Root permissions on dapper17:03
ignasand importing data17:03
ignasi have a daily attendance view working as a tab though17:04
ignasyet haven't yet thinked of what information should be displayed in weekly/monthly ones17:04
th1aWhen will you be on ST full time?17:04
ignasas soon as i'll finish/abandon the UI redesign17:05
ignasand will focus all the attention to bugfixes/ feature requests of lyceum17:06
th1aHopefully it won't be necessary to abandon it...17:07
th1aDo you feel like it is an improvement overall?17:07
th1aI think it is much better in general.17:07
ignasa good idea, but needs a lot of work to use it for the whole schooltool17:08
ignasadministration was not designed with this style of navigation, and a lot of actions are in action menus17:09
ignasbut that is the problem of our old UI not the new one17:10
ignasall the actions were being added without any thought about their importance/ usability of the application17:10
ignasso we have a huge backlog of "thinking" and designing ;)17:13
th1aSo one thing to do is to figure out which parts to expose and test first.17:13
th1aRather than trying to move everything around at once.17:13
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th1aignas:  How do you think we should manage the various modifications for different schools?17:16
th1aDifferent branches in svn?17:16
ignasdepends on modifications, different branches for school specific work (don't know any examples of such thing yet)17:16
ignasand trunk for common bugfixes17:17
ignas(sort ersons in attendance views alphabetically )17:17
th1aYes, I suppose we don't have to come up with a complex solution before the fact.17:17
th1ahm... jfroche_ must have gotten the time confused...17:18
jintyignas: I fixed a bit of the i18n last night, make update-translations should actually work17:23
jintyth1a: thanks for the info on awstats17:23
th1ajinty: You have wide discretion to kill useless things on that server.17:24
jintyit was already dead, but jfroche_ wanted to ressurect it17:24
jintyI'll just point him in the direction of you and Google Analytics in future17:25
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ignasjinty: trying myself, vidas tried extract-translations/update-translations and didn't get any wthings translated ...17:25
ignaseven with ++lang++lt17:25
jintyignas: the .po files wer not being compiled to .mo files17:26
vidas1jinty: update-translations failed with 'schooltool.po not found'17:26
ignassrc/schooltool/locales/lt/LC_MESSAGES$ ls17:27
ignasforgot to svn up17:27
th1ajinty:  OK, I see.  I missed why it came up in the first place.17:27
ignasjinty: lot's of msgmerge: internationalized messages should not contain the `\r' escape sequence17:29
jintyignas, vidas1: It works for me because I have a dirty checkout.17:29
ignasmsgmerge: error while opening "src/schooltool/locales//*/LC_MESSAGES/schooltool.po" for reading: No such file or directory17:29
jintythere are actually no schooltool translations in the repository17:29
jintythere's a comment in the makefile about how to get them from launchpad17:31
jintyit worked when I wrote it, whether it still does depends on how much has changed in launchpad17:31
ignasas the instruction tells to "get tarballs"17:32
ignasit should still be accurate :)17:32
* jinty is a specilist in vague documentation that remains accurate for a long time;)17:33
ignasshould someone should go through schooltool and erradicate notions of schoolbell in i18n  by replacing them with schooltool + merge translations in rosetta?17:35
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ignasjinty: as the one who understands the i18n stuff, would it be a benefit to schooltool to have only 1 domain not 2?17:42
jfroche_ignas: th1a hello17:54
jfroche_sorry for being late17:54
th1ahi jfroche_17:54
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th1ajfroche: Do you have a gmail account?17:56
jfrocheno why?17:56
th1aI've been using google analytics for site analysis.17:56
jfrocheis it enough?17:57
th1aWell, for me, but I don't have any sophisticated needs.17:57
th1aPerhaps you should take a look at it.17:57
jfrocheI would like to know who comes where on the site17:57
jfrochei ll look yes17:58
th1aYes, it'll tell you that.17:58
th1aOnce again, I think you need to make an account and I need to give you permission.17:58
jfrochebut i don't see the problem to setup an awstats with a secure apache access17:58
th1aYes, I suppose it shouldn't really be a problem.17:59
jfrochejinty: told me he is looking at it17:59
th1aThe history of this stuff is one of our former developers set up this server and then left, and jinty has been turning things off that he inherited but we don't use.17:59
jfrochei see yes18:00
th1aAnd the Plone site has been limping along under my limited skills.18:00
jfrochei will need an access on the filesystem18:00
th1aSo things like setting up a proper development instance should probably be done.18:00
th1aYes... is jinty still here?18:01
jfrocheyes as i told you prefer not to work on the production site18:01
jfrochei saw that you gave me admin access on the plone18:01
jfrochesaw the first page template, shouldn't take long to change this18:01
jfrocheand saw that you are using a skinning product18:02
jfrochewhich is already a good step18:02
th1aI tried using Plone Software Center and the documentation product (Plone Help Center?) but that proved to be too much complication.18:03
th1aSo there are bits of those hanging around but we should purge them entirely.18:03
th1aAnd also we'll be simplifying our "product line."18:04
* jinty is back18:04
jfrocheok i note this18:04
th1aSchoolTool Calendar and SchoolBell will be moving to a more explicitly deprecated status.18:04
th1aAlthough they'll still be available.18:05
jfrocheplone help center is a really nice peace of code18:05
th1aWell, perhaps if you actually understand it (which I didn't, really) we could make better use of it.18:05
th1aIf I've learned nothing else in this project I've learned to value simplicity.18:06
jfrocheok first good point would be to setup a dev instance18:07
jintyre: development instance, the server is already in swap death most of the time with the demo site and plone. Having a dev instance is not really within our memory budget.18:08
th1ajinty:  Can you set up jfroche with a shell account on
jfroche500 Mo ?18:08
th1aCan the dev instance be somewhere else?18:08
jintyI'll also make a plone admin group and make him part of it18:08
th1aShould we just shut down the demo site?  Or move it to the other server?18:08
ignasth1a: what do you mean by dev instance?18:08
th1aMoving it probably makes more sense.18:09
jintythat way he can have filesystem access to plone18:09
th1aOf the website.18:09
th1aignas:  Development version of the site.18:09
jintyyeah, we could move the dev site to the other server.18:09
jintywe would just have to migrate the demo.schooltool.org18:09
ignasth1a: plone site ?18:09
th1aignas:  Yes.18:09
jfrocheso you have 2 server18:10
th1ajfroche: Yes.18:11
th1aWe have a somewhat beefier server for testing with partner schools.18:11
th1aSo you'll need access to that one too.18:11
th1aPresumably you'll be using it for your schools.18:11
th1aThe Lyceum will need a local server probably.18:12
jfrocheschool don't want to put their data outside of the school for the moment18:12
th1aAh.  OK.18:13
th1aDo they have a server?18:13
jfrochei will provide them a server18:13
jintyjfroche: mind sending me a public ssh key?18:13
jfroche@mail ?18:14
jfrochejinty: what's you email address ?18:15
jintyah,, thought you had it...18:16
th1ajinty:  Why don't we move the demo instance to the other server.18:16
jintyyep, it's on my todo list18:16
th1ajfroche: What's the name of Denis's school again?18:16
th1ajinty: Thanks18:16
jfrocheth1a:  Athénée Royal Vauban18:17
jintytodo: 1. get jfroche setup as shell user with filesystem access to plone. 2. move the demo schooltool server. 3. setup dev instance of plone 4. setup awstats behind a secure apache and give jfroche the keys18:18
jfrochejinty: mail sent18:18
jfrochejinty: i will need write access to the dev instance products and permission to restart the server18:19
jintyWrite access I can give you, but i'm not sure how to easily give you permission to restart18:20
jintyunless you can do it from the control panel18:20
th1ajfroche: Named after the military engineer?18:20
jfrochedepend if you open a port under 100018:20
jintyno, we use virtual hosting18:20
jfrocheth1a: military engineer ?18:21
th1aOr a different Vauban?18:21
jfrochewow good question, i ll ask :)18:22
jintyjfroche: Ok then, I'll have a look if I can get this all done tomorrow, but definitely by monday.18:22
jfrochejinty: i am a sysadmin for other clients so if i can help you18:23
jintyprobably better not to have too many chefs stirring the pot;)18:24
jfrocheno problem18:24
jfrocheth1a: i begin the migration of Roundup to Malone18:25
jfrochei have code for this, where should i commit it ?18:25
th1aCode to automate the transition?18:25
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jfrochewe provide a list of the issue ID in Roundup and i export them with their history and comment to XML so that Steve can import it18:28
jfrocheth1a: sounds ok for you ?18:28
th1aAh.  OK.  Sounds good.18:28
jfrochesomething else could you provide me a contract18:28
jfrochethat shouldnt be long, just describing my activities and the price we spoke about18:30
th1aYes... we just need some goals for the rest of the calendar year.18:32
th1aLet's see...18:32
th1a* revamping;18:32
th1a* migrating bugs;18:32
th1a(those are mine)18:32
jfroche* installing new server for school for the school18:33
th1aWhat are the schools' priorities and how much can we get done in 2.5 months?18:33
jfroche* looking at the software they are using for the moment18:33
jfroche=> understand how to export data from it18:33
jfroche=> see the difference (advantages/disadvantages) with schooltool18:34
jfroche\=> this will be important to push them stop using the other one and using SchoolTool18:34
jfroche* import data in schooltool18:36
jfroche* oblige them to use schooltool and make them forget the other one18:36
th1aThe other one?18:37
th1aHm... I didn't realize we had a competitor at Vauban.18:38
jfrochethe one they are using now18:38
th1aWhat is that?18:38
jfrocheproprietary software named isis18:39
th1aHow long have they used it?18:39
ignasis isis better than schooltool ?18:40
th1aOne would hope it is right now.18:40
th1ajfroche: OK, well, I think there is much more coding to be done than you realize.18:42
jfrochei cant know yet if it's better18:43
th1aIf it works it is better.18:43
th1aIf it is done it is better.18:43
jfrochebut it's expensive for them18:43
ignasschool is paying for the system?18:44
th1aOK.  Do they like it or curse it?18:44
jfrochethat I should ask to Denis and Nicolas18:45
jfrochethey spoke politics with the school director18:45
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jfrocheth1a: you see it as a problem ?18:46
th1aOnly insofar as I'd like them to actually use SchoolTool at the end of the process.18:47
jfrochethat's my aim right18:48
jfrocheand Denis and Nicolas one18:48
jfrochesome teachers are already interested18:48
th1aOK.  As long as I understand the situation.18:48
th1aAnyhow, the " * oblige them to use schooltool and make them forget the other one" is at least six months out.18:49
jfrocheright that's not for the end of this year18:49
th1aOne question is if we'd like them to use our calendaring features in the near term.18:50
th1aThat should be possible.18:50
th1aAnd probably a wise first step.18:50
jfrocheI think that they don't have the calendaring feature in the isis system18:50
jfrochewhich is good for us18:51
jfrochetoday i had to go to the school for Denis to present me to the secretary and to look at isis but he is ill18:53
jfrocheDenis gave the paper we did to get me and Nicolas the authorisations to get and use their data in ST18:54
jfrochewe are waiting for an answer from the authorities now18:54
jfrochethere is no reason for them to say no18:55
jfrochebut if they do i don't know what i will be able to do...18:55
* th1a is showering.18:57
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th1ajfroche: OK.  Let's hope they say yes.  It is crucial to get to know the secretaries, as well.19:11
jfrocheright guess i ll do that tomorrow or the day after19:11
jfrocheth1a: do you have everything in hand to do my contract ?19:12
th1aHrm... I'm not trying to just stall here, but I really need to be able to tell Mark what you're going to be doing.  So we'd better get the word back from Vauban about the data authorization, and you and Denis should decide a rough strategy for what to do first.19:14
th1ai.e., start with the calendar.19:14
th1aOr whatever makes sense.19:14
th1aSame with Nicolas & La Futaie.19:15
th1aI don't need a detailed plan at all, but just a general one.19:15
jfrocheright ok... i just would like to be sure that the day i send you my monthly bill you won't say wait we need something else19:18
jfrocheth1a: i guess it's for the same reasons that you prefer to wait for the official announce ?19:28
jfrochegot to go, let's continue this on email. Thanks19:35
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