IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2006-09-12

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povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 6416:15:18
povbot/svn/commits: Remove warnings that were showing up when running unit tests.15:18
povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 6417:15:20
povbot/svn/commits: Backport fix for issue493: all day events and time zones to schoolbell 1.2.x branch15:20
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th1aHow are things in Vilnius?16:30
ignasyesterday Gintas talked to Liceum  director16:31
ignasas he is very busy now, we will only be able to meet him on friday16:31
th1aOK.  That's something.16:32
ignasbut from what Gintas told me, he was interested in the idea16:32
ignasVidas is working on the html fallback for the date widget used in navigation but as he's absent on Mondays, Tuesdays i can't tell much about the progress16:33
ignasI am working on new attendance views and a convenient way to add new tabs16:33
ignasand dispatch views according to the role of a person logged in16:34
ignasdid you see the proposal i sent you ?16:34
th1aIt seems fine.16:34
ignasoh and i did the backport of the "all day events and time zones" issue to schoolbell 1.2.x16:35
th1aOh... we'd need to release that at some point then.16:35
ignasi'd say that we should move to Zope3.3 if we want to do another release of Schoolbell/Schooltool16:36
ignasas it will get released some time soonish16:36
ignasor maybe not, I'd like to hear jinty's opinion on it16:36
th1aHrm... as long as it wouldn't become a time sink.16:36
th1aYes, we'll have to ask jinty.16:37
ignasif he can do a release depending on Zope3.2 that would save some time for us16:37
ignasseen ?16:38
th1aI think it is a bit shadowy.16:38
th1aAnd curvy.16:38
th1aThe bent tabs are a bit much.16:39
ignas"bent tabs"?16:39
ignasas in tabs with rounded corners?16:39
th1aThe shadows in the corner of the tabs.16:39
th1aIt looks like they're bent.16:39
ignasthat's programmers art by Vidas ;) had no time to fix it16:40
th1aNo problem.  The general visual style of SchoolTool has been well received.  I don't want to change that.16:40
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th1aOK... so I need to really figure out how to do some SIF stuff with SchoolTool.16:42
th1aI'm still confused about how I should incorporate a HTTP client into SchoolTool.16:43
ignasi guess i could try and help you if you would provide me with some exact requirements16:44
th1aI have 280 pages of exact requirements ;-)16:44
th1aSeriously, though...16:44
th1aThe SIF "Agent" will have to send messages to the SIF Zone Integration Server,16:45
th1ato register itself, indicate what it subscribes to and provides, etc.16:45
ignasseems like Webservice/SOA stuff16:45
th1aAlthough somewhat primitive/out of date.16:46
th1aSame idea though.16:46
ignasapparently it was a useful course to attend in the university ;)16:46
th1aSo I suppose sending these messages will probably be triggered by a form on a control panel.16:46
ignasis there a test server to try integration on ?16:46
th1aIndeed:  http://tinyzis.org16:47
th1aI'm releasing version 0.1 this week.16:47
ignasso the thing you need is a view that has a form which when submited registers schooltool with a ZIS server (url of the server is inserted into a field of the form)16:49
jintysorry i"m late16:50
ignasparses the response of the ZIS server and shows our user a confirmation / report of problems that were encountered16:50
th1aSo just some view code that starts up, say, an HTTPSConnection in a thread?16:50
th1aI guess it doesn't really need to be in a thread even?16:51
th1aSince we'll want to provide the reply to the user.16:51
ignasyes i think so16:51
th1aIs SchoolTool already threaded enough to not block everything waiting for the reply?16:51
ignaswell Zope3 gives you at least 4 worker threads16:52
th1aOK... I guess I was making this more complicated than I needed to.16:52
th1aI freak out when I run into things like threads.16:53
th1aThat's where you need a real programmer.16:53
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th1aHi jinty.16:53
th1aJust to keep things interesting, ignas has helpfully back-ported a bugfix to the old SchoolTool Calendar/SchoolBell branches.16:54
jintyyeah, I noticed16:54
jintyI can make a 1.2.5 release against zope3.2, but I can't actually package it16:55
* ignas goes to test a possible DOS for Zope316:56
jintyIf we want schoolbell in the next debian/ubuntu realeases, it's gotta run against 3.316:56
th1aDenial Of Service?16:56
th1aWell, if we could provide a fix that worked for current users, that would be helpful.16:57
jintyperhaps we could make a 1.3.x schooltool branch from 1.2.x and invite to community to try make it work against 3.3?16:57
ignasthere is a possibility that interfacing with a web service form inside of Zope3 might be as complex as you think it is ...16:57
jintyignas: yeah if it's synchronous, just four people have to do it at the same time and you have 4 blocked threads.16:59
ignasor one guy must click the button 4 times16:59
ignasbecause he want the result sooner16:59
jintyyeah, or that;)17:00
th1aIs that the DOS you're referring to?17:00
ignasthere is a thingie zc.async17:01
ignaswe might have to use it17:02
ignasoh and it is experimental :/17:02
th1aAh... more thingies.17:02
mgedminthis may be interesting:
mgedminbut it seems to be just an "experiment, not ready for prime time"17:03
th1aWhat if I just made a lock so only one pending request could be sent to the ZIS at one time.17:03
th1aThis isn't a common task.17:03
th1aIt is just necessary administration.17:03
ignasis it the only time schooltool will be communicating with ZIS server ?17:05
ignasi mean will all the other requests go from ZIS to schooltool ?17:05
th1aHm... I suppose the agent does have to send messages when objects change in ST's database.17:06
th1aSo that's a more frequent case.17:06
th1aAnd automated.17:06
th1aThose need to be in threads.17:06
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th1aOTOH, it is a little easier to deal with because you don't have to return a web form or anything for those.17:10
th1aWhen you're sending a message in response to user input, you'd really prefer to wait for confirmation to load the new page.17:11
th1aBut when you're reporting an automated event, it just has to send the message and wait for the Ack.17:11
th1aWhich it can do pretty happily in a thread.17:12
ignasif launching additional threads in a Zope3 assuming that they will want to access ZODB is easy then ...17:13
ignasbut i somehow doubt it17:13
th1aI suppose you're probably right.17:14
th1aI've been starting threads and opening new ZODB connections from inside them, but I guess that's a lot more low-level.17:14
th1aPlus I'm not 100% sure it works ;-)17:14
th1aActually... when sending messages about changes, that would be a read-only operation.17:17
th1aNotwithstanding logging the events, perhaps.17:17
ignasor logging failure of network connection ?17:17
ignaseven 200 Ok is a response so it's never read only17:18
th1aBut you wouldn't have to log that to the ZODB, you could log it to a log.17:18
ignasand the cleanup of threads when the application is being shut down ...17:19
ignaswith requests in progress etc.17:19
th1aHm... can threads signal to their parents that they've completed successfully?17:20
ignaswhat if the parent is kind of gone ?17:21
ignasi mean which thread would be the parent of an async request ?17:22
th1aI think if the parent is killed the children are too.17:22
th1aA thread can be flagged as a ``daemon thread''. The significance of this flag is that the entire Python program exits when only daemon threads are left. The initial value is inherited from the creating thread. The flag can be set with the setDaemon() method and retrieved with the isDaemon() method17:23
ignasmarius thinks that it is safe to spawn threads working with ZODB from a request17:26
th1aWell, I've figured out enough to get started at this point.17:27
th1aThanks for your help.17:28
th1aHopefully this will get me over my fear of SchoolTool development...17:28
ignasi'd try to use zc.async though first17:29
th1aYeah, well, that's the kind of comment that gives people a fear of SchoolTool ;-017:32
ignaswhich one?17:36
ignaszc.async one ?17:36
ignaswhy ?17:37
th1aJust the, "oh, to solve that problem just integrate a new Zope library" comment.17:47
th1aWhich, admittedly, may be better than writing a library myself.17:47
th1aBut on the aggregate, there are just so many libraries and modules.17:47
th1aAnd new ones arriving every day.17:48
ignaswell, everyone thinks that it's an upside of a platform17:48
ignashaving a lot of libraries17:48
th1aUltimately, not having these libraries is not a solution either, I know.17:48
th1aWhat we need is simpler problems!17:49
th1aThat approach has worked for Rails ;-)17:49
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