IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2006-08-08

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ignasth1a, pcardune: ayt ?16:49
pcarduneignas: yes16:58
ignaspcardune: maybe you know when is the date on which schooltool is going to be released ?16:58
pcardunei'm afraid I don't know16:59
ignasi see16:59
ignasnow about these16:59
ignasnavigation macros/ session thingies that you want16:59
ignasthe thing that troubles me is that a lot of usecases for these things are in CanDo application, and the only usecase for schooltool is "make attendance reports use the same timespan that is seen on calendar"17:00
ignascreating a good abstraction out of a single use-case is not something i am confident about :/17:01
ignasi will now try to describe an idea of mine so i would be sure we are talking about same things ...17:02
ignashave you seen/used google calendar17:02
pcarduneignas: a little bit yes17:04
ignasschooltool at the moment has "current date" stored in the session, so if you will navigate to some other view and then click on "my calendar"17:04
ignasyou will see the same day you were looking at17:04
ignasand this is *very confusing*17:05
pcardunei agree17:05
ignaswhile google calendar does the same17:05
ignasand it is not confusing at all17:05
pcardunehe he he17:05
ignaswhy ? :)17:05
ignasbecause google calendar is always showing you "where you are"17:05
ignasyou can always see a small calendar that has the "day", "week", "month" you are looking at marked17:06
pcarduneand also, google calendar does say at the top "Today" on every day of the month17:06
ignasindependently from the view17:06
pcardunedoes not*17:06
ignasso if we are going to store something in a session17:06
ignasit should be always visible to our users17:06
ignasand possibly even modifiable independently from the view17:06
ignaswas this what you meant by "abstraction for storing stuff in session" + "navigation macros for days/months" ?17:07
ignasas in such case it would be a pretty specific task17:07
ignasadding date/view_mode fidgets as a part of overall navigation17:08
ignasso users would always know what kind of view they are using and why suddenly their attendance report is "monthly"17:08
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pcardunethat is what I meant17:09
pcarduneignas: Of course, some views don't use the calendar at all, so the widget should only be available on relevant views17:10
ignaspcardune: not sure about it17:10
pcardunemainly it's a consideration of how much space such a widget would take up17:11
ignasas i would like date and date-range be a part of "where I am at the moment"17:11
ignaseven if it is not important in some particular case17:11
pcardunewell, like google, when you switch to gmail from calendar, there is no more date widget17:12
ignaswell these 2 are different applications17:12
ignasso you are literaly going from 1 application to another17:13
ignasit even opens in a new window17:13
ignasso when you go back you don't even expect to get to the same place you were17:13
pcarduneif we can make a widget that is unobtrusive and that can be hidden, then it's find with me if it stays with main navigation17:14
ignashidden by javascript you mean ?17:14
pcarduneactually, not even javascript17:16
pcardunejust store in the session whether it is hidden or shown17:16
pcarduneand have a little button to "expand" it17:16
pcarduneand some pages can ignore what the session says, so for example, the widget is *always* shown on the calendar17:17
pcarduneregardless of what is stored in the session17:17
ignasnot sure i would like this as a user17:18
ignasnot that the widget will take up that much space17:18
ignashalf of the row breadcrumbs are using17:19
ignasor something like that17:19
pcardunethat's fine17:19
ignaseven if more i'd position it in the top not on the left i think17:20
pcardunethe only thing is that it doesn't make sense on some views17:20
ignaswell, it's an anchor, so you know for sure that if you click on "gradebook"17:20
ignasthen click on "calendar"17:21
ignasyou return to the same place17:21
ignasbecause the date widget did not change17:21
ignasif it get's hidden17:21
ignassome users expect it to reset17:21
pcardunethat's true17:21
ignassome users expect it to stay the same17:21
ignasalways showing it - makes it comfortable17:21
ignasyou are not afraid that you will lose the state17:22
ignasand not anoyed that clicking on "my calendar" is not showing today17:22
pcarduneok, you've convinced me17:22
ignasnow for the "redirector"17:28
ignaswe want to have separate modes for views17:28
ignasso that "report.html" would use different template/ view class for every mode17:29
ignasmode being daily, weekly, mothly, yearly17:29
ignaswith some convenient way to register those views17:29
ignasand fallback if a view for that particular mode is not found17:30
ignasso one would write 4 views for attendance and register them in some magic way and that's all17:31
ignasi am leaning to having a named multi adapter (IBrowserRequest, IViewMode, IAttendance, name="report.html") instead of a view17:32
ignasadding a zcml directive if that becomes too verbose17:32
ignasand hooking into view lookup17:32
ignasthough that's not a final idea17:33
ignaspcardune: what do you think ?17:33
pcarduneignas: at first thought, that sounds good to me17:49
pcardunesome modes may have multiple views within them17:49
pcardunelike reports17:50
pcardunethere would have to be additional navigation with these modes to look through the different views17:50
pcarduneSome modes attach to one view class, but others like report attach to multiple view class -- or rather, view classes implementing a certain marker interface17:51
ignassounds like something overcomplicated ;)17:52
ignascan you tell me a usecase17:52
pcardunereports it the main one17:54
pcardunelet's say you are on the attendance tab17:54
pcardunein the reports mode17:54
pcarduneyou might want to generate reports for a particular student + multiple sections, all students + all sections, one section + multiple students17:54
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pcardunea teacher will only be able to generate reports within a certain scope, whereas administrators can generate more reports17:55
pcardunein greater scopes (schoolwide)17:55
pcardunethis might be accomplished with subviews17:56
pcarduneany mode that has more that needs to have more than one view can just use sub views.  Then the top level navigation architecture wouldn't have to worry about multiple views in the same mode17:57
ignaswell, the only problem i see is the fallback17:58
ignaslet's see17:58
ignasyou have an "attendance/report.html"17:58
ignasyour date widget is set to17:58
ignas2006-06-01 - 2006-06-3017:59
ignasso you are seeing the monthly attendance report17:59
ignasthen you go to some report_foo.html17:59
ignasthat is available only for monthly mode17:59
ignasand then you use the date widget to turn on "weekly mode"18:00
ignaswhat should you see ?18:00
ignasthe default view for "weekly" + "attendance" ?18:00
ignasin that case everything is fine18:00
ignasi mean you just register the special view for "attendance" + "monthly" call it "report_boo.html"18:01
ignasand that's all18:01
ignasnow as for the "mode"18:02
ignasnow we have these "variables"18:02
ignasDate, "daily/weekly/monthly/yearly", "calendar/attendance/gradebook/ ..." (a.k.a. context)18:03
ignasanything else ?18:03
pcardunei'm not sure what you mean by variables?18:03
ignasthings from which "what you see" depends on18:04
ignasdate + mode are stored in session18:04
ignasare the context of the view's18:04
ignas"view name" is stored in url ...18:05
pcarduneok yes, calendar/attendance/gradebook are not stored in the session18:05
ignasi just want to be sure i know of all moving parts ...18:05
ignasso anything i forgot ?18:06
pcardunei dont think so18:06
pcarduneoh, i know18:07
pcardunewe want to easily extend what kind of things are stored in the session18:07
pcardunewe may want to store "person"18:07
pcarduneif you are entering grades for a particular person, then switch to attendance, you would want to see attendance for that specific person18:08
ignasi am a bit afraid of storing things in "session"18:08
ignasit is like global variables18:08
ignasuseful and dangerous at the same time18:08
ignasso making it easy18:09
pcardunewe need to wrap it up in something that contains it nicely18:09
ignasis something i don't like, but if it is required ...18:09
pcardunewhat we really want is to store only one object in the session, which manages everything else we want to store18:09
ignaspcardune: won't that make the system too coupled ?18:10
ignasif calendaring depends on that "sotrage"18:10
ignasand the storage explicitly defines something from "attendance" as one of the stored things18:11
ignasthat would create a two way dependency between those modules18:11
pcardunestorage should not explicitly define anything18:11
ignasso you just want a nicer interface for zope3 session?18:12
ignasis the current interface so ugly ?18:12
pcardunenot really, it's just like annotations before they had those nice adapter factories18:13
ignasi'll look into it then18:14
pcarduneI only learned about sessions for the first time during the sprint18:14
pcarduneso i'm certain my knowledge of them is incomplete18:14
ignasbtw maybe you can imagine some way to indicate the "selected" person in the UI ?18:15
ignasif there is one selected18:15
pcarduneI guess that might end up being another widget like with calendars18:17
pcardunei'm not asking you to include support for storing "person"18:18
pcarduneI just want the ability to extend what is stored in other packages... like cando18:18
ignasi see18:18
ignasi just want as much of the information stored in the session to be visible as possible without cluttering UI too much18:19
ignaswhich leads to18:19
ignasif showing this bit in the UI will clutter it - do we really want store it in session ?18:19
pcardune(as in, i absolutely understand your point, not we should absolutely store it in the session :)18:21
ignasnot that we should not, just that storing something in session is an important decision18:21
ignasas someone said "we seem to be in violent agreement" ;)18:22
ignasi am a bit afraid that there is not enough time to implement everything18:23
ignasas i don't know the exact deadline18:23
ignasi will be working pretty much solo on this contract18:23
ignasand i am going away for a week this month (vacation)18:24
pcardunewell, i'd love to help out, but I'm leaving for school in a week, and have tons of CanDo stuff to do until then18:24
pcardunei'll certainly be paying attention to your checkins18:24
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ignasth1a_: ping18:48
pcarduneignas: do you know how schooltool runs under apache?18:52
pcardunehow the traverser can change the base url of the site?18:53
ignasZope3 has virtual hosting facility18:53
pcardunewhat's the easiest way to utilize it?18:54
ignasyou provide a base URL in the real URL18:54
ignaslet me see18:54
th1a_ignas: pong.18:55
ignasth1a_: when is the physical deadline for the UI work ?18:56
th1a_ignas:  Well... right now everything seems up in the air.18:57
ignasth1a_: having something even hazy would help me to plan the scope of the contract better ...18:58
th1a_I'd say one month from now, hazily.18:58
ignasthat get's us something like 3 developer weeks (hopefully will have to talk to Aiste first)19:00
ignasmissing comma before will19:00
Aisteignas: you can have vidas and part of Justas for that ;)19:01
th1a_Mark and I have a conference call next week to work out some plans on our side.19:01
Aistehi th1a19:02
th1a_Hi Aiste.19:02
th1a_I think my original response that you should talk to Mark directly was the right one.19:03
th1a_I seem to have only added confusion to the process.19:03
Aistewell, it is your job to negotiate and discuss these things with Mark19:03
Aistethat's why he hired you19:04
th1a_At least, I was confused about what we were paying you previously.  I'm not sure if he was confused.19:04
Aisteand there was a reason why I asked for the rate that i asked for19:04
th1a_I understand your reasons.19:04
AisteI remember you saying that it shouldn't be a problem to get this rate when we spoke19:05
th1a_Well, you see, Mark really didn't hire me to negotiate with you.19:06
th1a_As far as I am concerned it would be ok, but it isn't my decision.19:06
th1a_I really have no say at all.19:06
AisteI did not say, that you have to negotiate with me19:09
Aistemark hired you to manage this project19:09
Aistesorting out rates and payments is part of project management19:10
th1a_What I'm saying is that I told you I couldn't negotiate with you initially.  Somehow I got roped into doing it anyhow, which was a mistake on my part.19:11
th1a_SchoolTool just isn't structured like a normal project.19:12
th1a_You and I are both paid directly by Mark.19:12
th1a_I don't actually have a bank account for SchoolTool that I can spend as I see fit.19:12
th1a_It is all Mark's personal money.19:13
th1a_Anyhow, I'll have a definitive answer for you next week.19:16
Aistethat's good enough for me19:16
Aisteand besides, I don't think there is such thing as a "normal" project in open source world19:16
Aistebut all of them have certain rules19:17
th1a_None of these roles are well defined.19:17
ignasrules/roles ?19:23
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ignasth1a_: what do you mean by "Use placeholders for non-existent teacher views and views for other users." ?20:03
ignasare we not going to release the schooltool with updated UI ?20:03
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