IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2006-04-04

th1aI don't understand why.00:00
jintythe backend lookup mechanism in duplicity is via protocol00:00
jintyso you can do: duplicity / scp://host/xxx00:01
jintyor: duplicity / ssh://host/xxx00:01
jintybut as close to the url scheme of s3 would be better, perhaps w can do something like s3+http://00:02
jintya la subversion00:02
th1a_linuxThat seems reasonable.00:03
jintyok, th1a if you have a new account/bucket, I can do some more testing, then try a complete backup00:16
th1a_linuxWe may have to resume this at a later date.00:17
jintyk then, just ping me00:19
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povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5854:13:11
povbot/svn/commits: Refactored SectionInstructor view.13:11
povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5855:13:19
povbot/svn/commits: Renamed template as it will be used for more than selecting instructors.13:19
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povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5856:15:09
povbot/svn/commits: Refactored Relationship Edit views even further.  Made Section Learner views reuse the same base class and template.15:09
povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5857:15:35
povbot/svn/commits: ZCML cleanup.15:35
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povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5858:15:49
povbot/svn/commits: Added resources BoundRelationshipProperty to the Section.  Added resource booking view for sections.15:49
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povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5859:15:52
povbot/svn/commits: Added list of booked resources to the section view.  Added link to the resource booking view to the section view.15:52
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* th1a shuffles some papers around.17:28
* faassen jumps up.17:29
th1aGood morning everyone.17:30
algaer, hi17:30
th1aEvening for some.17:30
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th1asrichter:  Are you going to be with us, or are you occupied sprinting?17:31
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th1a* should we change the start time for the meeting?17:32
th1a* work plans from POV & Infrae17:32
th1a* should we reshuffle POV's contract a bit?17:33
th1a* the next ST 2006 release.17:33
th1aSo... is this time ok?17:33
algamove to 1330Z!17:34
algaI've got a lecture at 1500Z17:34
th1aIs 1330 UTC ok for everyone?17:34
faassenthat works for me, though as soon asyou get to daylight savings..17:35
faassenit all goes an hour earlier..17:35
faassenor something.17:35
faassenoh, wait.17:35
faassenno, it won't.17:35
faassenit's fine for me.17:35
th1aWe're on daylight savings now.17:35
th1aIt is 10:30 here.17:35
faassenoh, right, it's just we're on UTC for the meetings that's bugging us.17:35
faassenanyway, fine for me.17:35
mgedminany hour on tuesday works for me17:36
th1aOK, 1330 it is.17:36
srichterth1a: here17:36
th1aHi srichter.  Where are you?  Switzerland?17:36
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th1amgedmin:  Thanks.17:37
th1aOK.  POV, what are you guys planning on working on this week?17:37
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algaI'm working on deleting STTs and terms17:38
algaGintas is working on resource management in timetables17:38
srichterth1a: yeah17:38
algaLater, we'll start on timezones in timetables17:38
srichter(not sprinting yet, though)17:38
algawe seem to be in a bit of a crunch17:38
th1aTo hit your deadline?17:39
algabut I've still got hope17:39
th1aAre ignas and mgedmin working on ST this week?17:40
algaunfortunately, mgedmin is held off for most of this week17:41
algabut the rest of us are on schooltool.17:41
th1aignas:  Did we ever finish an estimate of how long it would take to fix the acl for taking attendance?17:42
algaignas is flipping on and off for some reason17:42
algabut today we finished estimating it17:42
algathere are two alternatives:17:43
algamaking admins and clerks access attendance is easy17:43
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algamaking teachers who teach a given sections poses problems17:43
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algathere are two ways to handle that:17:44
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alga1) hacky-simple:  check in the view, show a polite message if a teacher cannot access a sections attendance17:44
th1aColloquy is a great IRC client except that it crashes periodically.17:45
alga2) the-right-thing: introduce real relationships-based security17:45
algaour estimates are 6 and 16 nuts for these solutions, respectively17:45
algawe would recommend going for the Right Thing (TM)17:46
algain return, we suggest to drop corrections (18 nuts)17:46
algait is the most isolated story17:46
th1aI was just thinking the same thing.17:47
algawouldn't make it either easier or harder to do it later17:47
th1aCan you explain relationship-based security a bit more.17:47
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algawe want to be able to define permissions on objects like this:17:48
th1aI know we talked about it in Vllnius, but I'd like some feedback from faassen and mgedmin.17:48
alga<object class="" permission="schooltool.edit" relationship="" />17:48
algait would give us a flexible and generic mechanism to implement different security models17:49
algabased on relationships between objects17:49
faassenare you thinking about implementing a new security policy?17:49
faasseni.e replacing Zope's default one?17:49
algafaassen: perhaps17:49
algamost probably we would extend the zope one17:49
faassenokay, I urge you to look into it.17:49
faassenokay, I'd recommend against that.17:49
faassenwith the documentlibrary, I've used the zope one.17:50
faassenand it worked, but I figured in the end having gone with a custom security policy might've made things clearer.17:50
faassenthe containment nature of the default policy (objects have to have a __parent__) is also very frustrating.17:50
algathe zope security policy is very tightly optimized17:50
mgedminI was thinking about custom security checkers and the default zope security policy17:51
algaI'm somewhat afraid of having to do through all that ourselves17:51
th1aThat might take a few more nuts.17:51
faassenwell, I wonder whether we couldn't come up with a new security policy. I don't think we need to worry too much about optimization.17:51
mgedminalthough I haven't investigated the feasibility of that in detail17:51
faassenI mean, the security story has a strong tie-in with user interface.17:51
faassencurrently it sucks.17:51
faassentoo many options, and too hard to reason about.17:51
faassenperhaps just dumping the options completely and replacing it with one security policy that's hard-coded but at least one we can reason about would make sense.17:52
algabut coming up with a new security model is too mindbogling17:52
faassenyou could base it on location.17:52
mgedminwe could steal the one SteveA presented last EuroPython17:52
faassenthere's also one by zope corp, here..17:52
th1afaassen:  Generally, yes, giving people much fewer options is the way to go.17:53
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faassencan't find that policy right now.17:53
faassenanyway, this needs some design and discussion, I'd suggest.17:53
faassenlike, what kind of security use cases we have in the first place, overall.17:54
faassenwho needs to be able to access what?17:54
th1aNow would be a good time to discuss it.17:54
faassenperhaps there's something in there we can express in some easy declarative way.17:54
faassenthere seem to be notions of ownership..17:54
algathese are the scary questions we're all talking about for at least a year17:54
faassenand notions of 'everybody in a group can access this'17:54
th1aWell, the specific case we're talking about now relates to attendance.17:54
faassenand then you have those relationship issues you came up with.17:54
th1aSpecifically, only the instructors of this section can take attendance for it.17:55
th1aNot all instructors.17:55
th1aOr all teachers.17:55
th1aOnly the instructors of this section.17:55
th1aAnd that's defined by a relationship.17:55
th1aThis pattern will come up elsewhere.17:55
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th1aParents will need to be given access to only their children's records (I mean human parents and children, not objects).17:56
faassenyou could also model it as ownership, I think.17:56
faassenbut yeah, relationship would work as it, too.17:56
th1aI think ownership would be dicey for expressing this.17:57
faassenZope corp's alternative security policy is here:17:57
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faassensee policy.txt17:57
th1aYou can have multiple instructors, and they aren't the people who will create the object.17:57
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faassenit would make sense to investigate that.17:57
faassenokay, yeah, that's dicey.17:58
mgedminI'm a bit afraid checking relationships on every attribute access might result in a system that cannot be described by the phrase "fast enough"17:58
faassenmgedmin: have you investigated zc.relationship? :)17:58
faassenmgedmin: it seems to have performance optimizations.17:58
faassenanyway, perhaps someone can write this down.17:59
faassenand then we can discuss it.17:59
faassenlike, what are really the requirements for this system?17:59
faassenhow might it look in the user interface?17:59
faassenwhat would a typical user want to be able to do with it?17:59
faassenthat kind of stuff.17:59
th1aWell, I've talked about this problem a lot with POV.18:00
faassenwell, I haven't and it'd be useful for us to become involved for 2 reasons.18:00
faassen1) fresh perspective18:00
faassen2) user interface perspective.18:00
ignas__faassen, you see - we haven't talked about this from the user perspective18:00
ignas__as we do not really have any real users yet18:00
faassenwell, currently there *is* a user interface.18:01
faassenthat I don't want to show to real users.18:01
faassenso something's gotta happen.18:01
th1aWell, are we trying to talk about acl in general, or this attendance problem?18:01
ignas__acl in general18:01
faassenI'd recommend at least starting a conversation about access in general.18:01
faassenhaving a particular use case is useful.18:01
ignas__faassen, we know the state is awful, but imho we should base modifiactions on user input not on semi wild guesses ...18:02
th1aWell, I think we all agree that giving the user/site manager far fewer options is essential.18:02
algasorry, I gotta run to the uni...18:02
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th1aI don't think we're just making wild guesses.18:03
th1aAt least I don't think I am.18:03
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ignas__we are not making any guesses i am afraid18:03
faassenignas__: you cannot expect end users to give sensible input about complicated security issues. you need to think about what end users really want.18:03
ignas__as i haven't seen any documentation describing exact roles of clerks/school admins/ trachers18:03
faassenI mean, the current system is not a good base to get user input about.18:03
ignas__as well as their commonly performed tasks18:04
th1aEssentially, I don't think there is any way to have one ACL screen that can be used with every object.18:04
th1aFor an application as varied as SchoolTool.18:04
faassenI hope we can have no acl screen altogether.18:04
th1afaassen:  Exactly.18:04
faassenand just hardcode the story for now.18:04
ignas__we must have the "story" first18:05
faassenwell, we seem to have some stories.18:05
faassenperhaps someone ought to write them down?18:05
faassenlike, "student needs access to these objects".. "teacher teaching a section needs access to these objects"18:05
mgedminfor writing down the security spec18:06
faassenso who is going to write it?18:06
th1aCould you be more specific about that?18:06
faassenth1a: can you?18:06
th1aSince it falls on me.18:06
faassenth1a: well, a student would need read access to, his calendar events..18:07
ignas__th1a, we need default policies for schooltool - who can see what, who can do what18:07
faassenth1a: and write access to his calendar events. and read access to the sections he's following or perhaps all of them.18:07
faassenth1a: and someone teaching a section needs write access to that section, plus ..some form of access to all the students in the section, say, their demographics data.18:07
th1aI mean, if we can come up with a list of questions now, I can answer them.18:07
faassenth1a: can you give an example question?18:08
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th1aI think coming up with the questions and answers at the same time is a bit overwhelming to me.18:08
faassenth1a: i don't know what questions you're asking for. :)18:08
th1aLike,  "What objects does a student need to access?"18:08
faassenth1a: I mean, we can make a list of a lot of things in the system that someone could access.18:08
faassenth1a: demographics data of a student, attendance of students, section..18:09
faassenth1a: we also have a list of the roles/groups in the system.18:09
faassenth1a: students, teachers, etc18:09
ignas__faassen, you see - there are objects that do not have clear policy, schooltool should be adaptable for schools all over the world, and policies will be different ...18:09
th1aSo make a grid.18:09
faassenth1a: we need stories where the system is seen from the perspective of the student..what information can they access and what can they alter? as well as a teacher of a section, etc.18:09
th1aignas__:  That's why we've got partner schools.18:09
th1aWe've only got to deal with a limited number of cases right now.18:10
faassenignas__: yeah, but in this case having at least one functional story would be useful. we can always plug in different policies.18:10
ignas__th1a, that's why i am saying that we must talk to them first and then design security, not try reading their mind18:10
faassenignas__: they won't be able to understand your question half the time. :)18:10
faassenignas__: and a large section of the rest of the time they'll give answers that are at most incomplete.18:10
th1aIt will be easy enough to turn certain permissions on or off for them manually.18:11
faassenignas__: though I fully agree we need to talk to them, I think we have some ideas ourselves to improve the present situation drastically.18:11
ignas__role security will and should simplify everything (as soon as we will have it eworking), but for that we need clearly defined roles wit hclearly defined/sparated functions18:11
faassenignas__: role-based security would be nice.18:11
ignas__s/role/role based/18:12
faassenignas__: I didn't know that was on the agenda already. it won't solve everthing though, though that's where the relationships come in too, I hope.18:12
ignas__i would actually suggest starting form clearly defining roles18:12
faassenignas__: that'd be good. student, teacher, etc. but are these roles local or global?18:12
ignas__and then thinking from their perspective will be a lot easier18:12
th1aI'm not trying to NOT talk to the partners.  I have, in fact, discussed this with them, and I think just talking to me is good enough for getting 80% of the way there.18:12
ignas__th1a, cool :)18:13
faassenignas__: and do you need global roles like 'student' and then local roles like 'student_on_this_section'?18:13
faassenanyway, okay, what if I write something down about all this?18:13
faassenand then we go from there?18:13
faassenI'll write something down and post it to the list.18:13
th1afaassen:  That would be fine with me.18:14
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th1aMight loosen the log jam.18:14
faassenokay. I can compare with document library issues, where we had complicated issues with security.18:14
ignas__faassen, i think thinking from the point of view of the "acting" role shoul clear up such issues, thus not "can students of this section access this attribute" but "can i see attribute foo of section i am a member of"18:14
faassenignas__: is an acting role like a local role?18:14
ignas__can you define the term "local role"18:15
faassenignas__: a role you have on an object (and its subobjects), but not elsewhere..18:15
th1aI don't think ignas is a Zope 2 hacker.18:15
faassenignas__: i.e. "On this section I am the teacher"18:15
ignas__i am not18:15
faassenthey exist in Zope 3 too, local roles.18:16
faassenthat is, all roles are local, but right now.. in schooltool, you only have global 'roles', in the form of groups.18:16
faasseni.e. they're global to all of schooltool.18:16
faassenyou're either a teacher or you're not.18:16
faassenbut you can also model things by giving people local roles.18:16
th1aHm... perhaps I didn't know Zope 3 had local roles.18:16
faassenyou have local permissions, but that's harder to reason about.18:16
faassenth1a: all roles in Zope 3 are local.18:16
faassenth1a: that is, you can assign people roles locally.18:17
faassenth1a: I think you can also create new roles locally but that's not interesting.18:17
faassenthat is, in the standard Zope 3 security policy.18:17
faassenwe could have a security policy which doesn't use roles, anyway, we'll figure it out.18:17
faassenI propose we move on.18:17
th1aI think we could use local roles to handle the attendance use case, as long as the roles were kept in sync with the relationships.18:17
faassenth1a: (when you say in sync ..I think custom security policy, though a custom adapter might do too)18:18
th1aI was thinking "subscriber" but I don't know what I'm talking about.18:18
ignas__th1a, we were bittent by subscribers way too many times :/18:18
faassenoh, it's solvable with events, it's just probably more hairy.18:18
th1aSeemed like what srichter would say.18:18
ignas__th1a, they are causing problems when evolving the system18:19
th1ath1a:  OK, let's move on.  This was useful, though.18:19
faassenanyway, we'll mull this over, I'll post something to the list later this week, we'll take it from there.18:19
faassenokay, good, I always worry I am perceived as throwing spanners in the works.18:19
th1aignas:  When would you guys need to start writing this stuff?18:19
faassenth1a: they can start thinking along this week already. :)18:20
th1aI mean, they'll have to start it soon if they're going to meet their deadline.18:20
th1aWhich is in two weeks.18:20
faassenoh, that's soon.18:20
ignas__i am not sure, probably in the begining of the next week, but as our schedule is extremally compressed it might get pushed into this week/weekend18:21
mgedminreworking the entire schooltool's security infrastructure in two weeks is not practical18:21
th1aYes, this is certainly true.18:21
ignas__we are not going to rework the infrastructure18:21
ignas__i can promise you that18:21
ignas__i still want to have most of the functionality for the deadline18:21
th1aPerhaps cheap option 1 is best for now.18:21
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ignas__th1a, if we are going to spend time fixing it asap (next contract) then maybe18:22
th1aWe would be.  The problem is that an attendance system with no ACL is an incomplete toy, no matter how featureful it is.18:23
th1aSo we don't want to finish a second round of attendance work with a toy.18:23
th1aEven if it is a slightly hacky non-toy.18:24
th1aDoes that make sense?18:24
ignas__th1a, sorry i have lost it now ...18:24
ignas__so we want - ugly hacky solution for april 1818:24
ignas__or we want the generic relation based security policy18:24
th1aI think ugly hacky.18:25
ignas__or we want to rework the security of schooltool but we will not  do thet because of time constraints18:25
ignas__and what are we going to do in the next contract then ?18:25
ignas__ugly hacky means - hack something up so that:18:25
ignas__Teachers can only acces attendance views for sections they are18:26
ignas__teaching to.18:26
ignas__th1a, ACL is a bit meaningless, sorry18:26
ignas__we have ACL and they are not really working that well :/18:26
ignas__what do you mean by ACL ...18:26
th1aI guess AC not ACL.18:26
th1aI mean a new access control story for SchoolTool.18:27
ignas__AC as in - desing proper AC, or just add relationship based access control.18:27
faassenAC as in we're going to figure it out. :)18:27
faassenI mean, this really needs a bit of thought and writing things down.18:28
faassenit's easy to get lost in all kinds of edge cases with it.18:28
faassenso we'll see whether we can get some good ideas on it.18:28
th1aThe problem is right now it is like we're designing an automated teller system, except we haven't written the part where you enter your PIN number,18:28
faassenI think the relationship model could help there too, indeed. anyway, we'll see.18:28
th1aso if you show it to a bank at this point, it is hard for them to take it seriously.18:28
faassenthe access control story has repercussions throughout schooltool on many levels.18:29
th1aSee what I mean?18:29
th1aAnd this is pretty much the case because I've been afraid of dealing with access control.18:29
th1aSo it isn't your fault.18:29
mgedminwe were all afraid, I think18:30
faassenit's a hairy area.18:30
faassenso that's all understandable, but it needs to be tackled if we want to expose it to users.18:30
faassenwe can then of course tweak in response to feedback as ignas is suggesting.18:30
faassenthat's essential.18:30
th1aOK. Well, perhaps faassen can get us started in resolving it.18:30
faassenbut we need to have a better base to start from.18:30
faassenwhat's the next topic?18:30
ignas__the big bang ?18:31
* mgedmin checks the watch18:31
th1aParticularly if we can come up with a systematic way of getting requirements from me & users.18:31
th1aYes, we can wrap up.18:31
faassenokay, well, as to Infrae's status..18:31
th1aOh... I forgot Infrae!18:31
faassenlast week I didn't have a lot of time, this week I started again and I hope to get at least another developer in for feedback.18:31
faassenI've made some progress with a prototype still hiding out in's svn as it's more a sketch than real code.18:32
faassenof the demographics story.18:32
th1aLet me know when I can take a look.18:32
faassenin the sketch i have table-based display, formlib based forms, catalog driven search, batching, and a todo file. :)18:32
faassenbut it all looks horrible and it's flakey and doesn't have tests.18:32
faassenI've also been spending time trying to update the schooltool buildout infrastructure..18:33
faassenso I can start pulling in some dependencies like the various zc.* packages.18:33
faassenI've worked a bit with jinty as he did some interesting work with eggs.18:33
faassenand I've been doing some experiments eggifying zc.resourcelibrary today.18:33
faassenthey do take away cruft from the makefile into Python code we didn't write ourselves (and thus need not maintain), so I think that's the right direction18:34
faassenthis work needs to be done for my work to be able to land in schooltool proper, as we need a number of dependencies for that.18:34
th1aGood.  I'll be happy when we've got those problems straightened out.18:35
ignas__th1a, btw, you can see the resource booking for sections in the newest checkout (no evolution scripts yet, thus should only be tested on a clean Data.fs)18:35
th1aignas:  OK.  Thanks.18:35
faassenokay, that's infrae's status for now.18:35
faassenI expect more time this week and next week.18:36
th1aThanks faassen.18:36
th1aOK, that wraps up this meeting.18:36
faassenso I hope I can finally make progress into Tom-visible stuff. :)18:36
* th1a bangs the virtual gavel.18:36
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tiredbonesI just read this morning's irc meeting dicussion. I haven't used use-cases to define data relationships before, but have used it to define UIs'. Could someone point me to docs that explains this type of analysis?20:11
tiredbonesWhen you folks use the term security, is this another term for data integrity/quality?20:16
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povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 5860:20:25
povbot/svn/commits: Ripped out some other parts using section locations that I missed last time.  Added a missing test case.20:25
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 5861:20:25
povbot/svn/commits: Added an evolution script that gets rid of the old ISection.location and updates the new relationship attribute.20:25
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jelknerpcardune: why mr. cardune, how r u?23:00
pcardunehi jelkner23:00
pcardunei'm good23:00
pcardunehow are you?23:00
jelknergreat, do u know if welsh will be joining us?23:00
pcardunei believe so, He might call me though.23:01
pcardunebut I'll tell him to get onto irc23:01
jelknerif he does call, get on irc23:01
pcardunejelkner: welsh is getting onto irc23:12
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jelknerhi dave!23:13
pcardunehi dwelsh23:13
dwelshsorry about being late23:13
jelknerno problem23:14
jelknerwhat is on the agenda23:14
jelkneri have a few things23:14
jelkner1. pcardune's airline tickets23:14
pcarduneI'd like to here about the NSF stuff if there's time23:14
jelkner2. copyright history23:14
jelkner3. nfs stuff23:14
jelkner4. test server23:15
jelknerthat's all i have23:15
pcardunesounds good to me23:15
dwelsh5. check recent improvements23:15
jelknerdwelsh ?23:15
jelknerproblems with (4) may make that difficult23:15
dwelsh6. next mtg. to walk thru CanDo06 progress23:15
pcardunejelkner: i have a test server running on maddog23:16
pcardunejelkner: until bonnieb starts working again23:16
dwelshyup, but let's get the old girl back on her feet23:16
jelkneri'll look into it tomorrow23:16
dwelshgood; you take the lead jeff23:17
jelknershould we start?23:17
jelknerok, we started with 4 already, so let's finish up with that23:17
jelknerthe machine we are using for bonnieb seems to be flaky23:17
dwelshneed new hardware?23:17
jelkneri'll check it tomorrow, but we've had problems with it for awhile23:17
jelknerdo you have any available?23:18
dwelshcould use the server I gave you23:18
jelknerthat's what we are using23:18
jelknerit shuts down and won't come back on23:18
jelknerunless you unplug it, wait, and plug it back in23:18
dwelshthe new server with the prop wash???23:18
jelkneroh, no23:18
dwelshI mean the new one23:19
jelknerdon't you need that for dhcp?23:19
dwelshdhcp is holding up for now23:19
dwelshI'll ask for it back if we need it23:19
jelknerwell, then, yes23:19
jelkneri'll use that23:19
jelknerit would be much better23:19
jelknerok, done23:19
jelknernext issue: paul's plane ticket23:20
jelknerhe is ready to book his flight here23:20
jelknercan we cover that?23:20
dwelshdoes he know which flight???23:20
jelknerhe knows when23:20
jelknerwe were waiting for this discussion to make reservations23:20
dwelshhe'll give me a carrier and reservation number23:21
dwelshand I'll arrange for payment from here!23:21
jelknerpcadune: you got that?23:21
pcarduneSeattle -> DC -> Seattle23:21
jelknersince it is more than 30 days, you may not be able to get round trip23:22
jelkneranyway, we'll figure that out later23:22
jelknerok, 223:22
jelknerdid you see the emails tom, steve and i sent to each other?23:22
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pcardunejelkner: when?23:23
dwelshyes; went over them with Mike Morton today23:23
dwelshour changes are not huge23:23
dwelshwill make changes and send to everyone23:23
jelknerpcardune: you're not on the cc list for that23:23
jelkneri'll send them to you if you would like to see them23:23
dwelshseems to me we should be printing code for CanDo0623:24
jelknerbasically, we are trying to get our talking points in order regarding copyright for cando23:24
dwelshand noting what contributions came from the CanDo team23:24
pcardunejelkner: either way... just as long as I know what to put at the file headers23:24
dwelshThat's what Tom's lawayer basically said23:24
jelknerth1a: are you here?23:24
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jelknerpcardune: you should ask tom about that23:25
jelknerit is a basic GPL license header23:25
dwelshyes, that's not really an issue or problem23:25
dwelshthe issue has to do with copyright holder to privately license23:26
dwelshwe're the copyright holder of what "we" (CanDo team) wrote23:26
dwelshwe should just document that23:26
jelknerthe copyright holder will be APS, yes?23:26
dwelshLet's just say CanDo team for now23:27
jelkneri don't know if that works23:27
jelknerCanDo team is not a legal entity23:27
dwelshRight; in that case, APS would be the entity23:27
jelknerthat makes more sense23:27
dwelshThey're the ones most of us work for or are students at23:27
dwelshor were hired by23:28
jelknerso someone who can represent APS should contact the shuttleworth foundation23:28
jelknerto arrange for the contributors agreement23:29
jelknerthat will give us dual copyright on cando23:29
dwelshwe have permission to use the APS legal counsel23:29
jelknerso you are on top of that?23:29
jelknerand i'm done, yes?23:29
dwelshyes, I'll follow up23:29
jelkneris my email all you need for now?23:29
dwelshyes; just look at the corrections23:30
jelknerwill do23:30
jelknerok, next topic23:30
jelknertake it away, dave23:30
dwelshwould rather hear your version :)23:30
jelkneri thought it went great23:30
dwelshdo tell23:30
jelkneri told wdickers that they were as good as magnets ;-)23:31
jelknera bunch of important people started heading our way to see who these students were23:31
jelknerand it appeared you got to have a lengthy converstion with the women who had been running the meeting when we arrived23:31
jelknerso i figured getting the students there was a big help for our cause23:32
jelknerthey had fun23:32
jelknerthat's all i have23:32
pcardunethat sounds really good23:32
dwelshJust to complete the story23:33
dwelshthe lady was as program officer for the Advanced Tech Ed grant program23:33
dwelshthese are very big grants, up to $900K over 3 years23:33
dwelshshe encouraged use to submit CanDo as a project23:33
dwelshwhich would mean the exec. summary would go in at the end of this month23:34
dwelshwith a full proposal to go in around mid-October23:34
dwelshAPS has dedicated a grant writer (Ashley) to the project23:34
dwelshSo we couldn't ask for more23:34
dwelshOverall, a very successful mtg. with students, teachers, admin, grant writer23:34
dwelshand even community college reps. who were singing our praises23:34
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dwelshone of the community college guys was on our panel to review the tv program23:35
dwelshso they knew us and had great things to say23:35
dwelshanyway, a good showing23:35
jelknerwhat's not to love?23:35
dwelshAshley and I will get working on prospectus tomorrow23:35
jelknerdwelsh: let me know when i could meet with the 2 of you23:36
jelkneri don't want to rush to fast, but i have some other ideas for this summer23:36
jelknertake a quick look at that link23:37
pcardune\me looking23:38
* pcardune looking23:38
dwelshjelkner:  Ashley and I will pull you in to look at drafts23:38
jelkneri spoke at some length with the umd prof who is leading this project23:38
jelkneri've been dreaming of something like it in python for several years already23:38
jelknerour zope3 developers may be able to work on something like this23:39
jelknerand it could eventually become part of the cs curriculum in cando23:39
jelknerespecially if we got long term grant funding23:40
pcardunethat looks interesting23:40
pcardunevery interesting23:40
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jelknerok, next topic23:41
jelknerwe are almost done23:41
jelknercheck recent improvements23:41
jelkneri think that is your's mr. carduner23:41
dwelshactually, paul and I will check them Friday 4-6pm23:42
dwelshsame time as last week23:42
pcardunejelkner: will you be there also?23:42
dwelshthe long walkthru really helped last week23:42
dwelshthink we could use a couple just to prime the pump23:43
dwelshwe're talking philosophy and features23:43
dwelshvery helpful23:43
jelknerhere is what i would like to do about testing23:43
jelknerpcardune: could you develop a list of "zope3 competencies" for the cando course?23:43
dwelshjeff; need to go; talk to you soon23:44
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pcardunewill these be on how to use CanDo?23:44
pcarduneor on how to us Zope?23:44
jelknerthe latter23:44
jelknerthis is what we are morphing your class into23:44
jelknerwe will enrole wdickers, linda, dwoo, rjelliso, and william haddon23:45
jelknerand me23:45
jelknerand flint23:45
pcarduneit makes perfect sense23:45
jelknerand tiredbones23:45
jelknerwe will learn about cando by using it to track our own competencies23:45
jelknerover time, will add real curriculum that will help folks master zope323:45
pcardunewhere do you want this to run?23:45
jelkneron bonnieb23:46
pcarduneI'll start coming up with the competency lists now23:46
jelknercan you get a rough draft together by friday?23:46
pcardunewell.... of how much23:46
jelknerdoesn't matter23:46
pcardunethere are maybe 1000 zope competencies...23:46
pcarduneif not more23:46
jelkneryes, but just the ones you want us to master now23:47
jelkneryou can add to the list as we go23:47
jelknerand we can setup the class this friday23:47
jelkner4 to 623:47
pcardunesounds good23:47
jelknersounds like we have everything23:47
jelkneri'll talk to you on friday23:47
jelknerdid you write to whaddon?23:47
pcardunewas i supposed to write to him?23:48
jelknerto give him something to do23:48
jelkneri sent you an email23:48
jelknerit bounced23:48
jelkner(don't know why)23:48
pcarduneI don't remember talking about this23:48
jelknerso i forwarded it23:48
pcardunelet me check23:49
jelknerhold on...23:49
pcarduneyeah, i see it now23:49
jelkneri looked at his progress23:50
jelknerhe is really moving along23:50
jelknerhe needs to be brought into the loop now23:50
pcardunethe timeclock loop?23:50
jelkneri think wdickers and woo have that covered23:51
jelkneranything else you could give him to do?23:51
jelknerhe is reading and studying on his own23:51
pcarduneyou mean come up with another zope project?23:51
jelknerhold on23:52
jelknerare you near a phone23:52
jelknermy fingers are getting tired ;-)23:52
jelknerregular number?23:52
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th1aSomeone ping me?23:57

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