IRC log of #schooltool for Friday, 2006-03-17

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tiredbonessrichter, I went into my shell history to see the command I executed before. here anybody that want it. svn co svn:// boo00:09
tiredbonessrichter, Do I need the output from pyskel to be saved in a file to have a successful test run?00:17
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srichtertiredbones: well, it si just a skeleton of the class you are going to implement00:47
tiredbonessrichter, does that mean I need it at this point in time for the test?00:50
tiredbonesWhat's really fustrating at this point in time in time is that I ran all the tutorials I could fine on the net and had no problems. Now for some reason I can solve a path issue.00:53
srichteryou need the skeleton + fill it out for the tests00:53
srichterbut this is not causing your problem00:54
tiredbonessrichter, ok00:54
tiredbonessrichter, Can I skip the test phase for now and will the system still run?00:56
srichterif the tests have an import error, it is very liekly that the system will not start up00:58
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5810:02:02
povbot/svn/commits: Teh REST API for terms is a low priority at this stage (according to Tom); since the existing API provides no benefit anymore, I just remove it for clearity. Someone can later look at ti in the archive when implementing the new REST interface.02:02
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5811:02:03
povbot/svn/commits: - Fixed sample data generator.02:03
povbot/svn/commits: - Implemented some final components that help manage the term template for02:03
povbot/svn/commits: the schooltool application object.02:03
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povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 5812:14:36
povbot/svn/commits: Fixed failing unit tests.  I commented one of the tests out because I was not sure how to fix it.14:36
srichterfaassen: so are you going to change the SchoolTool code to use the new annotation support?15:15
srichterfaassen: also did you address the factory info for APIDOC?15:15
faassensrichter: no, I haven't figured out the factory info yet. I wasn't sure what that was needed for.15:42
faassensrichter: so I didn't check that bit into zope. it's a one liner to fix though.15:42
faassensrichter: I'm not sure why apidoc needs a different factory info. Why can't it use component.adaptedBy?15:42
faassensrichter: (and sure, I plan to change the schooltool code, but I'm working in a sandbox for now focusing on demographics)15:43
srichterthe factory is used to give the user real information of the type of object that is returned from the adapter15:43
srichterthe simplest case is a function as adaoter15:44
srichterthe function can return any object15:44
srichterapidoc cannot figure out which type of object is being returned15:44
faassenI can add a line for it.15:44
srichterthat would be great!15:44
srichterknowing the factory really adds value to apidoc's information15:45
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faassensrichter: I have a question about the templates.15:47
faassensrichter: right now schooltool.app15:47
* srichter listens15:48
faassenokay, anyway, contains a number things.15:50
faassencalendar related stuff.15:50
faassenand stuff that's related to the site design.15:50
faassenlike, standard macros, resources.15:50
faassenI think it'd be useful to move the design related stuff out of
faassenand into something like or whatever.15:51
faassenthat makes it easier for people who aren't programmers to hack on the bits, and it also makes it easier for my sandbox work now.15:51 is a *huge* mess15:51
faassenlike, I can make something that looks schooltoolish without having to hook it all into schooltool.15:52
srichterit is already much better than it used to be15:52
faassenI don't want to worry about integration into schooltool yet with my code, as it's really going to pull in a lot of zc.* stuff15:52
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faassenand I think I can write cleaner stuff by not worrying too much about what's there right now.15:52
srichterI think would be okay15:52
faassenafter all the person screen is going to change pretty drastically.15:52
faassenjust in is okay? no need for a .browser, right?15:53
srichtermgedmin and I agreed on having schooltool.core too15:53
srichtermaybe schooltool.core.browser15:53
srichteror schooltool.core.design15:53
srichterbut I am okay with a flatter approach15:53
srichtermgedmin: any comments?15:53
faassenI'd prefer flatter.15:54
faassenalso because I don't need to worry about core stuff now. you could even argue the design bits aren't the core.15:54
faassenthough that's fuzzy.15:54
faassenlike, where to leave the sorting adapter stuff that's useful in ZPT?15:55
faassenmaybe that could go into schooltool.core.browser.15:55
faassenanyway, I'm only going to worry about what I minimally need if I want to reuse the design bit elsewhere.15:55
faassenso the schooltool.core stuff can work itself out later.15:55
srichterok, so what stuff do you want to pack into
faassenI imagine most of what's in
faassenthen I suspect
faassenthe appropriate interfaces for that.15:59 I think.16:00
faassenexcept for calendar bits. there's some calendar stuff in there.16:00
faassenand presumably whatever is non-calendar design stuff that's in
srichterok, right16:00
faassenand possibly the sorting adapter that's used in page templates, though that's more dubious.16:01
srichterI think this would also be a good oppurtunity to investigate which macros could be easily converted to viewlets and simple content providers16:01
faassenbut I might not move that right away, depending on whether it's used.16:01
faassenI want to work as independently of everything else as possible.16:01
srichterright, I think this is a good goal16:01
faassenokay, what if we do that in two phases?16:02
srichterand I agree that it would make the skin/UI Stuff more usable outside16:02
faassenfirst I just move everything into, aiming to change little.16:02
faassenand then as a next phase I'll have some overview and we'll look into viewlettifying it. :)16:02
srichtersounds good to me16:02
faassen("viewlettifying", I like it :)16:02
srichterI just want you to think about it, since you will be fairly deep into that stuff16:03
faassenI will think about it.16:05
faasseni'm still slowly (too slowly) descending into schooltool code.16:05
faassenI also need to make a convincing case to start using all these new zc.* libraries and such. :)16:06
faassenI mean, it's convincing to me, it makes life a lot simpler.16:06
srichterI am for it; I hate reinventing the wheel16:07
srichterbtw, I am still not familiar with the calendaring code myself, so don't worry16:07
srichterI think SchoolTool is a good example of orthogonal code, except for the UI, which I hope you will fix up somewhat16:08
faassenokay, unless Marius starts screaming in a few minutes, I'll just start on then. :)16:14
faassenmgedmin: are you screaming already? :)16:14
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 5813:16:21
povbot/svn/commits: Implemented VTimezone, added rudimentary parsing and hooked it up to VCalendar.parse.16:21
povbot/svn/commits: The current implementation includes a small hack: X-LIC-LOCATION (provided by Evolution) overrides TZID.  This isn't pretty, but is simple and does the job.16:21
* mgedmin is still trying to understand faassen's cunning plan16:28
faassenmgedmin: I want to extract everything that has to do with standard macros, skins, resources, etc, out of
faassenmgedmin: into schooltool.design16:28
faassenmgedmin: leaving anything calendar related in for now.16:28
faassenmgedmin: as well as anything that doesn't have to do with the web design elements.16:29
faassenmgedmin: that'll also mean most of and some of
faassenmgedmin: ideally I want something I can drop into some other arbitrary zope 316:29
mgedminwhy not the other way around?16:29
faassenmgedmin: and I can use it.16:29
faassenmgedmin: why the other way around?16:30
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 5814:16:30
povbot/svn/commits: Minor change.16:30
mgedminhave (or schooltool.core.browser) contain macros/other non-domain-specific stuff, while schooltool.calendar.browser has calendar-related browser views16:30
srichterright, so this was our original plan16:31
faassensure, I'm not going to stop anyone from moving the calendar stuff.16:31
faassenbut my aim is to get the stuff that's mostly skin out into its own package.16:32
srichterbut I think MArtijn would argue that then he would have to get all of schooltool.core in order to get an actually SchoolTool independent skin16:32
faassenso that can be hacked on independently by non-gurus and can also incidentally be dropped into what I'm cooking up.16:32
faassenso it looks at least schooltoolish.16:32
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faassenyeah, I just want the simplest way from here to there.16:32
faassenand that's to focus on the skin bits. I can recognize that stuff.16:32
* srichter notes that the master of decision making just entered the scene16:33
faassenI'll leave the calendar stuff untouched, but it should also improve by the natural process of being less mixed with other stuff. :)16:33
faassenhey Tom. :)16:33
mgedminok, how about naming it then?16:33
th1aHi Martijn.16:33
mgedmindesign is a bit ambiguous16:33
srichterth1a: you cannot possibly be in a good mood that early in the day :-)16:33 works for me.16:33
mgedminwhen I hear 'design', I start thinging interfaces, and UML, and things like that16:34
th1aI never really shifted to Pacific time.16:34
faassensure, works.16:34
faassenwe'll have to tihnk a bit about then.16:34
th1aMy biological clock hasn't returned to normal since my trip to Europe.16:34
faassenbut perhaps a few imports into's are in order there.16:34
faassenth1a: my biological clock is never normal. :)16:34
faassenth1a: anyway, Tom, recap..16:35
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povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 5815:16:35
povbot/svn/commits: X-LIC-LOCATION overriding TZID won't work...16:35
srichterth1a: summary of my work: I am happy with the design now and I am pretty sure it will work; you will have revised stories by tonight16:35
faassenI'm working on demographics. we also expect non-uberhackers to start working on the schooltool skin in a while.16:35
faassenthe schooltool skin is currently mixed in with
faassenbut I want it to be somewhere independent, so I can easily drop it into my demographics work, and as importantly, so people just know where to find it and can work a bit in isolation there.16:36
faassenso the proposal is to make a schooltool.skin16:36
faassenI fairly mechanically move everything that's related to skin and general layout of schooltool into schooltool.skin16:36
faassenthat includes a lot of resources, some standard templates.16:37
faassenI suspect at least a bunch of viewlets I see in there too that look generic.16:37
th1aSo there is sort of an implicit SchoolTool skin now and you want to make it explicit?16:37
faassenyes, I guess you could see it that way.16:37
srichteryes, there is a ST skin, but it is mixed into the Wild West of, so we want to civilize it a bit16:37
th1aThat sounds reasonable.16:37
faassenso I'll just proceed with that.16:38
faassenoh, and phase 2 is looking into viewlettifying that code.16:38
faassenright now Phase 2 is only being thought about.16:38
faassenlike, I keep it in the back of my mind, sometimes think " I wonder whether these mysterious viewlets would make this better"16:38
faassenand then after a while we'll see whether they do.16:38
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th1aI had a day of hell in High Tech High's server room yesterday.  They gave me a pretty nice old graphics workstation to set up Ubuntu/SchoolTool on, but it had an extremely flaky BIOS which caused me to spend most of the day just trying to get it to boot.16:45
faassenth1a: ugh.16:45
th1aAt least I got it running before the end of the day.16:46
srichterwhy can't people spend the $300 on a cheap E-mchine16:46
th1aOtherwise, I would have been pretty disgusted.16:46
th1aWell, it should be a reasonably good box for the purpose.16:47
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srichterth1a: how important are hierarchical activities in this iteration?17:35
th1aActivities?  Not at all.17:35
srichterand assessments, etc17:36
srichterall requirements, basically17:36
th1aYou mean in the gradebook?17:36
srichterI am wondering whether we should do it right now in this contract or leave it for another iteration17:36
th1aI think the gradebook needs to be flat for this iteration.17:37
srichterok, cool17:37
th1aA hierarchical gradebook is a complicated UI problem.17:37
srichteryes, though I have started to think about it a little bit already17:38
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povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 5816:18:34
povbot/svn/commits: Slight refactoring: split VEventParser off VEvent.18:34
faassengintas: still no use for the icalendar library? :)18:44
faassengintas: it does a lot of stuff I think. :)18:44
povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5817:18:45
povbot/svn/commits: Remove deprecation warning.18:45
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faassenwhy are the schooltool unit tests setting up all kinds of browser views?18:52
faassenseems like that would be more the purview of functional tests, right?18:52
ignasfaassen, probably, in some cases these are very old tests (pre migration to Zope3), in some cases these are for testing of complex logic in templates19:01
ignaswhen you want to traverse multiple paths in conditions19:02
faassenignas: the latter complex logic tests should be movable to a functional test, right?19:02
ignastraverse as in test19:02
faassenignas: anyway, I'm trying to get the tests running again after my Great Skin Migratin.19:02
ignasfaassen, sometimes it would be way to tedious to test all the branches in functional tests, sometimes - yes definitely, but no one has the time to migrate them19:03
ignasif you will fully migrate these tests to functional - it will be very nice, and very slow (in the computational sense) ;)19:04
faassenshould all the tests in become functional?19:05
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ignassurely not all19:05
ignasthere are a lot of "true unit tests"19:06
faassenwell, I ask this as these tests are in
faassenwhich sounds like they are tests that have something to do with integration, not unit tests.19:06
faassenof course I suspect there are these elsewhere that depend on the testing infrastructure in
ignasfaassen, some of these tests have nothing to do with template rendering, they are testing complex methods in views that extrace or summarize data found in  the context of the view19:07
faassenyes, there are lots.19:07
faassenI wonder how much work this is.19:07
ignasfaassen, i am afraid that it's a lot of work, as some of these pseudo-functional tests should not just be migrated to functional tests, rather someone should change the code and move the logic from the template to the view itself, add "true unit tests" for the new methods in the view, and simplify the functional test accordingly19:10
faassenyeah. I wonder what the cost is of these tests dragging you down.19:11
faassencompared to the gain.19:11
ignasbut if you can move the test to testbrowser doctest - you should definitely do so if you want19:11
faassenafter all, if the UI is going to change, some of this stuff is completely locked down in tests.19:11
faassenfake AddViews.. okay, there goes a simple move of the code to zope.formlib. :)19:11
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povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 5818:19:38
povbot/svn/commits: VEvent now has dtend_tzid and dtstart_tzid attributes.19:38
povbot/svn/commits: VEvent has also lost its duration attribute, because we may have to take timezones into account when calculating the duration, and we can only do that later, when we can get real pytz timezones from tzids.19:38
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jelknerpcardune: hi paul, are you here?19:46
pcardunejelkner: hi jelkner19:46
pcardunejelkner: I've done some really great work on cando in the last couple of days19:47
jelknerlet me introduce you to william haddon (whaddon)19:47
pcardunehi whaddon19:47
jelknerwhat did you do?19:47
pcarduneremember how I said adding wikis to schooltool would be impossible since schooltool isn't "inside" zope?19:48
pcardunewell, I got it to work19:48
pcardunethe power of zope is in the configuration files19:48
pcarduneI just reconfigured the existing zwiki product, replaced a few browser views, and not it just fits in perfectly19:49
jelknerso, we want to figure the best way to get william up to speed with zope3...19:50
pcarduneI also started working on a *way* better curriculum system19:50
pcardunewell, he could join the class?19:50
pcarduneIf you want something faster, then there are always the tutorials and phillip's book19:51
jelkneryes, that makes more sense19:51
whaddonI've seen the book.19:52
pcarduneI would recommend setting him up to work with woo19:52
jelknerwilliam dickerson has been working with woo19:52
jelknerand it is working *very* well19:53
jelknersince william can supply all the motivation19:53
jelkneri don't know if whaddon is ready to push woo like he needs to be pushed ;-)19:53
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 5819:19:54
povbot/svn/commits: Fixed breakage caused by recent refactorings.19:54
povbot/svn/commits: srichter, the tests ran without a hitch when I simply commented out the offending sections.  Seems to me that this section of code is a bit undertested.19:54
pcardunewell, he could start with the phillips book then19:54
whaddonYes, I have begun to do this.19:55
jelknerpcardune: how is the instance now on the demo server?19:55
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jelkneris it ready for some serious testing by welsh?19:55
jelknerand should we resume tuesday meetings?19:55
pcardunewe should resume tuesday meetings, although I'll be gone next tuesday19:56
pcarduneit is ready for some serious testing... certain parts that is19:56
jelknerok, so first meeting will be tuesday after that19:56
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jelkneryou will be able to update it as we go, yes?19:56
pcardunebut he should start doing testing before that19:56
pcarduneoh yeah19:56
jelknerso if i create classes and such, and start adding students and data19:57
jelkneri won't have to reenter later?19:57
vmx_hi jinty. you are the debian mantainer, right? (i have forgotten who it was yesterday ;)19:57
jintyvmx_: yep19:57
pcardunejelkner: well, not entirely19:57
pcardunewhat you should do is enter in all the students19:57
pcarduneall the courses, all the sections19:58
pcarduneall the schooltool related stuff19:58
pcardunebecause that is very stable right now19:58
pcardunethen create a backup of the Data.fs19:58
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jelknerwhat is the port number on the server?19:58
pcardune7070, i'm not sure is running though, but check19:58
jelknerdoesn't seem like it19:58
jelkneri tried 707019:59
pcardunei'll start19:59
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pcarduneI will also update it to19:59
pcarduneok, it is starting (slowly)20:00
pcarduneok, it's up, on port 707020:00
jelknerwhat is my login?20:02
pcardunethe usual: manager/schooltool20:02
jelknerok, should i begin with an account for myself?20:04
pcarduneIf you want20:04
jelkneri don't know what i want :-(20:05
pcarduneI mean, the other option if we want to create a lot of test data20:05
jelkneri'm hoping *you* know what i want :-)20:05
pcarduneis to use the sample data generator20:05
pcardunewe can do that for all the schooltool objects20:05
jelknerthat would be better for welsh20:05
pcardunebut it takes a *long* time to run20:05
jelkneri don't really have time to just play with sample data20:05
pcarduneand then there is *TONS* of data20:06
jelkneri would want to use it with a few students to test it in action20:06
jelknerthat way i could generate real user stories based on day to day experience with the program20:06
pcarduneok, well in that case I would follow these steps:20:06
jelknerthat's what i'm hoping to do this spring20:06
pcarduneadd all the students you want to use20:06
pcarduneadd a course, and add a section and put the students in that section20:07
pcardunethen backup the Data.fs20:07
pcardunethen start doing stuff with cando20:07
jelknerwill do20:08
jelknerwhat about teacher?20:08
jelknerme, i mean20:08
pcardune(add yourself as the teacher)20:08
vmxwhat's the usual way to checkout schoolbell? svn checkout
jelknerwhich step is that?20:09
pcardunewhen you add the students... what i really meant was add all the people you want in the system (yourself and students included)20:09
jelknerok, another question20:09
jelknerwill dave and i be able to use this same system for testing?20:10
jelkneror should he have a seperate test system?20:10
jelknerhere is what i see as pros and cons:20:10
jintyvmx: yes, if you want the current stable version20:11
jelknerpros: 1 system to maintain, easier collaboration / sharing of experience20:11
pcardunesure, but only if you're ok with working on a system with thousands of students/courses/classes (assuming dave wants to use auto sample data generation)20:11
jelknerno, dave will want a seperate system for that kind of testing20:11
jelkneri'm talking about him doing a much smaller test with data that he knows20:11
jelknerstuff from acc this year20:12
jelknerwe will need to get that data into the system somehow anyway20:12
pcardunewe can put everyones data on the same system no problem, it's really up to you whether you want to work in the same environment as Dave20:12
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pcardunethere is no limiting factor on a technilogical level20:13
vmxif i'd like to hack schooltool a bit (add features i want). what repository should i check out?20:13
pcardune(except that the server *crawls*... I can't get a single page to load)20:13
jelknerthat is no good at all20:14
faassenvmx: svn co svn+ssh:// schooltool20:14
jelknerok, i need to run to the other school20:14
jelkneri'll get back with you later20:14
jelknerseems like first problem is finding a machine on which to run this in the first place20:14
pcardunei'm running one right now20:15
pcarduneit works fine20:15
vmxhups i ment schoolbell and not schooltool20:15
jelknernot doing anything now20:15
jelknerlet's keep students and testers seperate20:15
pcardunegive me an account with sudo access and i'll set it up now if you want20:15
jelkneryes, once i setup machine20:15
jelknerby monday20:15
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jintyvmx: we went through a huge re-factoring between the last release and now, schoolbell is now a part of schooltool, so the repository faassen said is correct20:16
pcardunejinty: are you the one to talk to about getting svn access to the cando repository for new developers?20:17
vmxwhat's the password? i tried none and anonymous20:17
jintyvmx: but beware, I'm not sure if the trunk schoolbell part of schooltool actually work20:17
jintypcardune: guess so20:17
vmxjinty: i'll see it ;)20:18
jintyvmx: use an anonymous http checkout, you can only use ssh if you have write access20:18
pcardunejinty: ok, great.  I'm going to have one person send you stuff for that20:18
vmxanonymous http checkout is ok20:19
faassenvmx: oh, yeah, sorry.20:19
jintypcardune: sure, might take a while though, I still have to figure out how I want to do that in future20:19
vmxso i'll do a "svn co schooltool" and will also get schoolbell?20:19
pcardunejinty: could you give me a time estimate by any chance?20:20
jintypcardune: not right now, but definitely within two weeks20:21
pcardunejinty: ok, that's fine.  thanks20:21
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jintyvmx: yep20:23
vmxok svn co schooltool seems to work20:24
vmxalthough i'm a bit confused about all those names. so schooltool2006 will be a merge between schooltool and schoolbell?20:24
vmxso there won't be any new development in schoolbell?20:25
vmxi want a nice (small business) calendar, and schoolbell comes closest to that want i want. it is no school so i'm only interested in the clanedaring functionality20:26
jintyAFAIK, schoolbell will be a schooltool without the school specific functionality20:27
vmxok, i hope now i understood it:20:29
vmxschoolbell will still be developed. atm you make big chances that all go to schootool. once it is stable you will create a new version of schoolbell out of schooltool20:30
vmxso if i would make patches everyone likes, they'll go into schooltool2006 and will be seen later in schoolbell20:31
jintyvmx: that's about as much as I understand it, but I am deinitely not the authority20:31
vmxafter the checkout i see that there's schooltool and schoolbell in the source directory20:32
vmxi'm still a bit confused ;)20:32
jintythe schoolbel module there is only for backwards compatibility as far as I understand it20:33
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povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5820:23:28
povbot/svn/commits: Implemented new gradebook API.23:28
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