IRC log of #schooltool for Thursday, 2006-03-09

srichterth1a: back00:00
srichterth1a: well, "E" could be a category and thus it is clear what it is00:01
th1aI have to go now.00:02
th1aSomething to discuss tomorrow.00:02
th1aActually, the whole "E" question may just make no sense conceptually.00:03
th1aThere may be no right answer.00:03
srichterok, see ya tomorrow00:05
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tiredbonesWell, I hope I got rid of my sef fault problem. I pulled my mem stick and clean the system a bit. I must clean it more often than every three years.00:12
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jintyhmm, maybe this is why the mailman get's stuck:01:09
jintyMar 06 14:47:26 2006 (18329) Master qrunner detected subprocess exit01:09
jinty(pid: 21677, sig: None, sts: 1, class: OutgoingRunner, slice: 1/1) [restarting]01:09
jintyMar 06 14:47:26 2006 (18329) Qrunner OutgoingRunner reached maximum restart limit of 10, not restarting.01:09
jintylast sent message before death: Mar 06 14:44:5901:15
jintyor better yet:01:18
jintyMar 06 14:47:26 2006 (21677) <OutgoingRunner at -1211673492> processing 1 queued bounces01:18
jintyMar 06 14:47:26 2006 (21677) <OutgoingRunner at -1211673492> processing 1 queued bounces01:18
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jintyworking hypothesis:
th1aday of year out of range?  That sounds like a SchoolTool bug.02:22
jintymaybe a python bug;)02:22
jintyturning off the list bounces might be a workaround02:24
th1aWhat does that mean?02:24
jintywhen someone tries to post to a list, but hasn't registered, they get a bounce02:26
jintyi think02:26
jintyhmm, actually the offending code looks to be just a log message. I'll replace it with something else and see how we go.02:28
tiredbonesWhat happen if people don't know they have to register to get on the list/02:28
jinty            # We've already scored any bounces for this day, so ignore it.02:29
jinty            syslog('bounce', '%s: %s already scored a bounce for date %s',02:29
jinty                   self.internal_name(), member,02:29
jinty                   time.strftime('%d-%b-%Y', day + (0,)*6))02:29
th1atiredbones:  They're supposed to get a message notifying them of the situation.02:29
jintyok, let's see if that makes a difference...02:39
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* th1a is awake, if needed.14:30
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povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 5794:19:01
povbot/svn/commits: Remove the current directory from the python path. This fixes a error in the nightly tarball script.19:01
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ignasth1a, ayt ?19:51
SteveAfaassen: i think a suffix is like "jr" or "III (the third)" or "the younger" in "pitt, the younger"19:54
faassenyeah, I guessed as much, but that doesn't mean I know. :)19:54
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mgedminispell suggests replacing 'realtime attendance form' with 'mealtime attendance form' :-)20:02
tiredbonesfaassen, after reading your last email and briefly looking at HTH spec., how do you view the joining of the two?20:02
SteveAfaassen: the invader of england in 1066, william the conqueror, was know by the suffix "the bastard"20:04
th1aignas:  I am here.20:11
faassentiredbones: hmm..20:20
faassentiredbones: good question, I don't have an answer yet.20:20
th1aDo they seem incompatible somehow?20:20
faassentiredbones: I've been butting my head against customization issues, just trying to think it through.20:20
th1afaassen:  I'm writing a response to your email now.20:20
th1asrichter and I just got back from lunch.20:20
faassenI mean, we *are* going to need customizations to all kinds of bits in schooltool20:21
faassenand the commendations module is a rather course grained approach.20:21
faassenthe one way I can think through is skin-based customization. I haven't gotten a handle on viewlets yet, but that won't be a solution to everything either.20:21
faassensometimes simply different kinds of objects will need to be produced that are interface compatible but also have differences.20:21
faassennot sure how to accomplish that in a zope 3-ish way yet.20:22
faassennot course grained. coarse grained. :)20:22
th1aWell, here's what I just wrote in the email:  I didn't sufficiently define the scope of our ambition this time around.  We are not trying to come up with a perfect universal schema.  Nor are we trying to come up with the perfect customizable/i18n system in this iteration.  Probably we'll try the second one next year.20:22
th1aWhat we are trying to do is something simple that will work in most countries and in particular in our partner schools.20:23
faassenwell, I rather wonder whether what you described will work in Belgium. :)20:23
faasseni'm not trying to come up with a perfect customizable system either.20:23
faassenI'm just trying to come up with *any* customization system.20:23
srichterfaassen: think of viewlets as UI-based adapters :-) (Maybe at the Swiss Sprint I am writing a document of the paralells)20:24
faassenright now the core has a lot of half-hearted UIs.20:24
faassensrichter: yeah, I sort of have the concept, just not enough experience to actually reason about them.20:24
th1aHalf-hearted UI's is a good way to put it.20:24
* mgedmin wonders if Unicode has a HALF HEART character20:24
faassenanyway, we'll end up making the UIs better in the core and we'll end up doing some of the custom UIs we'll need from extensions.20:25
th1aIf there are particular bits about the schema I laid out that need to be modified over the next six months, that's not a big dea.20:25
faassenand besides UIs we'll end up defining schemas from extensions, most likely.20:25
faassenth1a: I know you're right.20:25
tiredbonesfaassen, th1a, am I right to assume that your going to address the Student Info in the HTH spec.?20:25
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th1aI guess I should look at the HTH spec...20:26
faassenth1a: use case STU120:27
faassenth1a: I think.20:27
faassenunless there's more to that spec than these use cases.20:27
faassenit's not too worrying given your descriptions.20:27
th1aI've got that stuff in there, don't I?20:27
faassenyeah, I think we have that covered.20:28
th1aI guess I'm just assuming that we can't jam it all into one page.20:28
th1aWhich might be a bad assumption.20:28
th1aThe fewer pages/tabs required, the better.20:28
tiredbonesth1a, yes you do, it just got to be flush out.20:28
faassenI don't know, we've been considering user interfaces. for the add form we might want to jam a lot in one page as that's easier.20:28
th1aI think I'm used to very space inefficient layout of these things.20:29
faassenanyway, I've just been thinking about the customization problem not because I want the perfect approach.20:29
faassenbut because I want my brain to come up with some approaches and patterns.20:29
faassenthat are at least distant goals.20:29
faassenand who knows, perhasp tomorrow I'll have some smart idea that's easy to implement.20:29
th1aThe one problem I don't know the answer to is how can we have multiple versions of these student data schemas for different countries, but whichever one is being used can register itself as the "student data schema."20:30
th1aIf that makes any sense.20:30
tiredbonesDo people still normalize data these days?20:30
faassentiredbones: not in an object database, exactly. :)20:31
faassenth1a: yeah, that's one of the problems I'm struggling with.20:31
faassenth1a: anyway, we will run into issues like this in various places20:32
faassenth1a: one approach with that registration is if your extension is a skin, and which student data is added is set in a menu.20:32
faassenth1a: you can override the menu in another skin that's defined by the customization.20:32
faassenth1a: so you have a core skin and a customized skin which uses the core skin.20:32
faassenth1a: just overrides bits and pieces here and there. but I'm not sure whether that (and viewlets) can get us all the way.20:33
faassenth1a: but we're going to need a core and an extension one way or another.20:33
th1afaassen:  I think you're way overthinking this particular problem.20:33
th1aThis implementation of student data is kind of a stopgap.20:34
faassenI'm not just thinking about student data.20:34
th1aUI in general.20:34
faassenwe're going to need a schooltool core and a schooltool HTH extension.20:34
faassenwhat ends up where depends on lots of stuff.20:34
th1aYes, ok.20:35
faassenit's UI and more than that, also definitions of schemas, ideally.20:35
faassenI'm overthinking these things *now* so I can at least forget about them for now.20:35
faassenanyway, i'm thinking about it in the context of student schemas as it's a concrete example.20:35
faassenwe may need it for other content objects too eventually, such as courses, perhaps resources.20:35
faassenthough I don't expect we'll need it this year.20:36
faassenschooltool right now is vague enough we hope it can work for any school.20:37
faassenbut I'm worried it cannot work for *any* school. :)20:37
faassenso we're going to need a core/extension mechanism. we may need to start applying skins at least.20:37
faassenI also don't want to build something that needs a complete overhaul next year.20:37
faassenanyway, it'll all get concrete in a bit.20:38
faassenI just am not there yet.20:38
faassenwhat I'm doing right now is setting up my subconscious so I hope with a few more nights of sleep I'll get some good ideas. :)20:39
faassenor at least can resign myself to some idea I've already had.20:39
faassenquestion about extension libraries..20:39
faassenit may be useful to start using some of the zope extension libraries in schooltool at some stage.20:39
faassenI'm thinking about zc.table, for instance, and hurry.query20:39
faassenwhat's the procedure for having some of that adopted into schooltool?20:40
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srichterwe are are not as strict as svn.zoep.org20:40
srichterBasically we just have to make them part of the buildout process20:41
* tiredbones BOOKMARKER20:42
faassenanyway, i'm out of here now.20:47
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