IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2006-03-07

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jelknerth1a: tom, u here?02:33
th1ajelkner:  Just got back from the grocery store.02:49
jelkneri'm on the phone02:50
jelkneris now a good time to call?02:53
srichterth1a: I think I have a flexible plan for the gradebook03:24
th1aI was just going to send you a note too.03:24
srichterjelkner: I hope you were not offended by my most recent mail about developmentn process03:24
srichterth1a: ok03:25
jelknersrichter: i must of missed that03:25
jelknerplease fill me in03:25
th1aIt was a while ago.03:25
srichter(I sent the mail about a week ago03:25
srichterabout development process)03:25
jelknercan you summarize?03:25
jelknerdo you mean the email you sent to help us with our class?03:26
jelknerabout 2 weeks ago03:26
jelknerthat was great03:27
srichterFeb 23, 06 :-)03:27
srichterRe: Assignment for zope3class03:27
jelkneryup 2 weeks03:27
jelkneryes, i read it in detail03:27
jelknerth1a: email sent03:28
th1ajelkner:  Thanks.03:28
th1asrichter:  So what's the plan?03:28
jelknerok, gotta go.03:29
jelknercya all later...03:29
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th1aI was thinking that perhaps all activities in the gradebook should be in a 2 level hierarchy to cut out the name duplication problem.03:29
th1a"Term" requirements (for the report card) would be in ['term']['e4a']03:30
th1asomething like that.03:30
srichtereven easier03:31
th1aRegular tests, assignments would be in ['assignments']['e4a']03:31
srichterWill will have ``GradeItem`` objects that wrap requirements or can be anything03:31
th1aAnd if you were evaluating the same standard in different projects, the project would be the top level03:31
th1a['moby dick']['e4a']03:31
srichterall they have to have is a title and know how they represent themselves in the gradebook03:32
srichternothing end03:36
srichternothing and03:36
srichterit will make the gradebook so flexible that I can put anything pretty much in it03:37
th1aHow do they connect to the requirements?03:37
srichterso some grade items will be created from the requirement structure as it is now03:37
srichterothers from the report requirements03:37
th1aSo just a wrapper layer.03:38
srichtersince grade items will be unique, a requirement can be connected to several grade itesm03:38
th1aTo avoid namespace collisions.03:38
srichternot only that03:38
srichterbut it will also make the gradebook layout more flexible03:38
srichterso that we can have different types of items in them, like simple requirements, but also computed ones, like final grades03:39
th1aOK.  I'll take your word for it for now.03:40
srichterI know that's the way to go03:41
srichterI feel good about it03:41
srichterand it addresses the issue I mentioned early in the morning that our APIs are not flexible enough03:43
srichterthis is the solution I was looking for :-)03:43
srichter3 strikes at once, cool :-)03:44
th1aOK then.03:46
th1aI'm tired.03:46
srichteroh, I love it even more now :-)03:46
srichterit fits the story so well03:46
srichterI think I will have some good rough idea by tomorrow03:47
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ignasmgedmin, and what if we'd just add a Timezone argument to expand method for allday events, which is ignored if there are none14:44
ignasor changing the interface would be a bad idea14:44
ignasi think making it non-keyword would prevent some future bugs14:45
mgedminignas: you mean ICalendar.expand(first, last, alldaytz=EuropeVilnius)?14:46
ignasi mean ICalendar.expand(first, last, alldaytz)14:46
mgedminsounds better than implicitly using the timezone of the first/last arguments14:46
ignasso one could not miss it14:46
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* th1a cracks his knuckles.16:25
* alga blinks16:25
algaHow is your health?16:25
th1aI feel like an old man who has had diarrhea for a week, thanks.16:26
faassenth1a: ugh, I hope you didn't catch that here16:28
srichtergood morning16:29
faassenhey srichter :)16:29
srichterhey :-)16:29
th1aI'm not sure what type of bug I've got.  I didn't go to the doctor because every morning it seems like I'm better and then every evening I feel like crap.  I just called the doctor though.16:29
th1asrichter and I covered a lot of territory in our meeting yesterday.16:30
th1aOK... agenda.16:30
th1aLet's see if we can wrap up POV's stories first,16:31
th1athen discuss what Infrae will be doing when.16:31
th1aYou awake, ignas?16:31
th1aOne outstanding question is the "attendance dashboard."16:31
ignasyep i am here16:32
th1aBasically, we need a page that a clerk or school administrator can refer to check for pending issues.16:32
th1aWorkflow stuff they need to do.16:32
th1aSo it should probably be a top level page,16:32
th1awith some viewlets.16:32
ignasand probably we need a way to identify clerk/school administrator16:32
th1aWell, we've got groups.16:33
th1aIs that not sufficient?16:33
ignasoh, forgot about them16:33
th1afaassen thinks we need roles, but we'll avoid that if we can at this point.16:33
faassenI don't know what we'll need, I just worry about the way groups are now.16:34
th1aGiven the somewhat chaotic state of our navigation, for the moment it probably makes most sense to stick a link "Attendance" that shows up for people in the right groups under "Navigation."  Consider that a temporary hack.16:35
th1aUnless someone has a better idea.16:35
srichterShane once suggested that from a permission point of view principals, roles and groups are all the same; they are all grouping permissions; so their existence is rather arbitrary and you could add and remove as many layers as you like16:35
srichterth1a: I started a dashboard already, though it would need some real love and work; I am not sure you are willing to invest there right now16:36
th1aThen in the corrections story, you'll need to make a viewlet for the attendance dashboard that lists the corrections waiting to be approved.16:37
faassensrichter: technically that may be true, but from the perspective of a comprehensible user interface and human thinking that isn't necessarily true.16:37
srichterthe dashboard I started should forward you to the attendence dashboard of course16:37
th1asrichter:  We're just a bit jammed up right.16:37
srichteryeah, I agree16:37
th1asrichter:  Oh, you mean in terms of the first screen a user sees.16:37
* mgedmin checks whether 0.11.4 and 1.2.4 are announced on and finds that they aren't yet16:38
srichterfor a clerk that would include the attendance management screen16:38
th1amgedmin:  If someone other than me wants to post things on, they're welcome to.16:39
th1aignas:  Are there other loose ends in the attendance stories?16:40
th1aHave you worked out the two homeroom mess?16:40
ignasyes, i had to merge two stories as they were overlaping16:40
ignasPeriod Absences Inheriting from Day Absences and Day Tardies16:40
ignasis the new name16:40
ignaswhen i'll know what is involved in the dashboard story i'll send you the result for a review16:41
th1aOK.  Sounds right.16:41
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5786:16:41
povbot/svn/commits: - Factored date range into its own module.16:41
povbot/svn/commits: - Moved date range tests to README.txt; currently deactivated, see below.16:41
povbot/svn/commits: - Started writing some science fiction about how we (Tom and I) would like16:41
povbot/svn/commits: terms to work.16:41
th1aDo you get the idea for the dashboard story now?16:42
ignasadd a view that everyone in a school admin group can see16:42
ignasdisplay attendance work items relevant to school admins in that view16:42
th1aDon't we have a clerk group too?16:43
ignasyes we do16:44
ignasso make the view visible to School admins and clerks16:44
ignasnow should the explanation workflow include have more than one role ?16:45
th1aOK.  Any idea when you guys will be ready to get going on that?16:45
ignasor are we still using only 1 role of school admin and allowing everyone to perform actions ?16:45
ignasyou mean when we will start working on the contract, or the dashboard story ?16:46
th1aWe haven't bothered to clean up the permissions on taking attendance because srichter is going to fix the section permission situation.16:47
th1aignas:  working on the contract.16:47
ignasas soon as you will confirm the contract and our estimates16:48
th1aI'm a little unsure of what the overall situation with permissions in the attendance workflows are.16:48
th1aThe end result should be that only school administrators and clerks can do those actions or see the dashboard.16:48
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th1aI'm not sure what that means internally at this point.16:49
ignasat the moment we are not using workflow permissions, it all depends on the view16:49
srichterth1a: I am pretty deep into the term and gradebook stuff right now, so POV could take on the session permission stuff if they wanted to16:49
th1asrichter:  True.16:50
th1asrichter:  Why don't you sent ignas your story.16:50
ignasthus if you have access to a view that pushes through a correction - you can convert a tardy to an absence and etc.16:50
th1aSee if we can add it to their work.16:50
srichterI think I have not written the permission story yet, only the one about fixing the API16:51
th1asrichter:  Yeah, well, perhaps they should be the ones to do that.16:51
th1aIt is more relevant to what they're doing than what you're doing.16:51
th1aignas:  So there could be two levels of permissions, on the views and in the workflow itself, but right now we're only doing it on the views.16:52
ignaswhich means that in our workflow there is only 1 actor/person16:52
th1aWell, for the moment, if it works right on the views that's probably sufficient.16:53
ignaswhile with the addition of a dashboard - we will have 2 factual roles - a teacher and admins/clerks16:53
th1aWell, use your judgement.16:54
ignasi'll look into it16:54
th1aOK then.16:54
th1aLet's talk Infrae.16:54
th1aI just booked a flight to San Diego for next Tuesday.16:55
ignasi'll need you to review the explanation XPDL with "corrections" added some time into the contract16:55
th1aI'll be there for two days.16:55
th1aWe should probably have a conference call with Infrae.16:56
th1aOr I guess it isn't a conference call if there are only two parties, but you know what I mean.16:56
th1aDiscuss how this might work.16:56
th1aFilling in some background...16:56
th1awhat we're considering doing is having High Tech High act directly as Infrae's client for the gradebook.16:57
th1aNot have everything piping through me so much.16:57
faassenthe gradebook and whatever else they need changed to make it work for them.16:57
faassenthough of course if any change impacts schooltool core we will discuss this.16:58
faassenwhat I'm hoping for is that the real world input will help streamline bits of ST. user interface definitely I hope.16:58
th1aSo... in the meantime.16:58
mgedminthat would be very nice16:59
th1aIt will still take a while to get the gradebook stuff ramped up for Infrae, between getting HTH ready to go and srichter finishing some big changes we discussed yesterday (and hopefully he can explain shortly).16:59
th1aSo I'm going to write up demographics stories for Infrae.17:00
faassenokay. :)17:00
th1aWhich should be quite straightforward.17:00
th1aAnd I should be able to have done tomorrow.17:00
faassenokay, then I hope to be able to start some work on that second half of this week.17:01
th1asrichter:  Do you want to summarize the changes in the gradebook you came up with?17:02
th1afaassen:  Excellent.17:02
srichteraehm, I am not sure I can do that at this point without saying next week, I changed my mind :-)17:02
th1aOK, I have a question then.17:02
srichterthe basic idea is that the gradebook should not be directly coupled to the requirements tree17:03
srichterbut have an abstraction called grading items17:03
srichterrequirements will be wrapped to be grading items17:04
th1aYou mentioned last night that this might allow cells to do calculations?17:04
srichterthis allows us to have a grade book that is independent of the requirements tree, which is what we need to fulfill all use cases17:04
srichteryes, so one special type of grade item would be one that does some calculation17:05
th1aSo might the user be able to enter calculations like in a spreadsheet?17:05
th1aThus have some of the weighting, etc, just implemented that way?17:05
faassenI'd recommend against user programming abilities in schooltool.17:06
faassenthat's opening up quite a bit of issues security-wise alone.17:06
faassen(and maintenance)17:06
srichterright, no user programming17:07
th1aWell, I don't know if it would have to qualify as user programming to be useful.17:07
srichterwe will code the computation ourselves17:08
srichterwe would just provide choices, if available17:08
th1aSo could we do this:17:08
th1aTeacher keeps their exam scores in the gradebook during the term.17:08
faassenit'd already be nice to allow us to implement calculationsl ike in a spreadsheet, sort of. plug in different calculation abilities at least.17:08
th1aAt the end of the term, the final grade is magically added as a column to the gradebook.17:09
th1aThe teacher selects the final grade column, tells it to average all the exam scores and apply the school grading scale.17:09
* tiredbones BOOKMARK17:10
th1aGets the final grades automatically computed.17:10
th1aAnd can still manually change them if desired.17:10
srichtersomething like that yes17:10
th1aOK.  That's what we want.17:11
th1aMaking it feel spreadsheet-y is good, I think.17:12
th1aAlso srichter and I worked out how events will mark the passage of terms.17:13
srichterwe just have to hide a lot of the computation complexity from the teacher17:13
th1aBasically, each term (year, semester/trimester, marking period) will have a standard set of events.17:13
th1asetup, begin, end, close, teardown.17:14
faassensetup and teardown?17:14
faassenwhat's the difference between end, close and teardown?17:14
th1aSetup indicates that you're actively beginning to work with the term.17:14
faassenwho is 'you'?17:15
th1aIt is simply there so that if you, the school administrator,17:15
ignasend - the time when term ends, close - the time when you finish all activities associated with the term, teardown - when term is archived ?17:15
faassenthat would require an explicit archiving event, instead of terms being automatically archived just because the 'current' state moved forward.17:15
th1awant to set up terms for the next three years for some reason, the 2009 year won't be cluttering up your interface.17:15
th1aOr at least that's what we were thinking.17:16
faassenso setup is basically publishing it?17:16
th1aIn a sense, yes.17:16
faassenso an event can be unpublished and then published. it has a date range during which we're actually in the term. I don't know what 'closing' means.17:16
faassenI guess unpublished.17:17
faassenanyway, and what do these events do?17:17
faassenthese are calendar events?17:17
th1a'end' is specifically the end of classes.  'close' is the end of active use of the terms, for example, when the grades have all been submitted.17:18
th1aZope3 events.17:18
th1aWell, for example, you might only want the final grade added to the gradebook at the end of the term.17:18
faassenconcerning archiving, I hope we can archive things without having to move them anywhere, like between folders or whatever.17:18
th1afaassen:  Well, that's an open question.17:19
th1aIt certainly gets beyond my understanding of the ZODB's performance characteristics.17:20
faassenit's not just performance.17:20
srichterit all depends on how meaning ful your names should be17:20
faassenit's just somewhat easier to reason about unmoving data, sometimes. just change the view on the data instead.17:21
th1aMaybe what we really need to do is make sure we're putting the data in the right place the first time.17:22
faassenyou can always off a view on the data that's moving. the data itself doesn't have to go anywhere.17:22
th1aLike sections should always be contained by a term perhaps.17:22
faassennot off, offer. :)17:23
th1aWhich reminds me of one last thing...17:24
th1aWe're not going to twist POV's arm until they use it, but it certainly looks like a catalog will be needed for the gradebook.17:24
th1aSo would we have one catalog object that has multiple indexes?  Is that how it works?17:25
faassenif you're indexing a certain type of object, typically you'd have a catalog with a number of indexes for it in there.17:25
faassenI know the innards of the z3 catalog a bit so feel free to ask me questions.17:26
th1aOK... each component will need its own catalog, since they're meant to be independent.17:26
srichterconcerning placing things: let's not move things too much around right now; we have other problems to solve; I think we can revisit this, once we have some time to breathe17:26
faassenalso I'd recommend we adopt the hurry.query component as that makes querying the catalog a lot easier.17:26
faassensrichter: sounds good. just don't want to start moving stuff more. :)17:26
th1asrichter:  Yes, we won't move the earth under your feet.17:26
srichtermy brain is hurting from all the requirements Tom dumped on me yesterday17:27
th1aMy brain hurt yesterday from all the requirements I conceived yesterday.17:27
th1aActually, srichter, here is part of the reason it felt so complicated.17:28
th1aWhat we're trying to do now is to integrate ALL of the evaluations into a unified framework.17:28
faassenth1a: my brain hurts too when I think about ST requirements.17:28
faassenth1a: that's why I so desperately want to connect it to a complete customer goal. :)17:28
th1aWhich is the right way to do it.17:28
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th1aWhereas, we could also say, "this progress report is just a special annotation on the student," make up a form and voila!17:29
srichterI am confident that we will have a really solid story by next week17:29
th1aBut by trying to keep this all in one requirement/assessment framework, it should be much better for querying/reporting/analysis down the road.17:30
th1aMore flexible and powerful.17:30
ignasth1a, will you want anything except for "correction" work items in the attendance dashboard ?17:30
th1aignas:  I think there is one more.  I'll look at the stories.17:31
th1aOK, time's up.17:31
th1aThanks for coming folks.17:31
* th1a strikes the virtual gavel.17:31
faassenokay, thanks Tom. :)17:31
* mgedmin waves bye17:31
ignasth1a, so when will you send a summary for the dashboard story for me to estimate ?17:34
th1aAn hour?17:34
ignasand what about the new story srichter has started working on ?17:35
th1asrichter:  Can you shoot a copy of that to ignas?17:36
srichterthe term stories?17:36
th1aSpecifically the section API?17:36
th1aIs there enough detail in that to make sense to him?17:37
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srichterit is very little17:42
srichterI have not looked in detail at it, but we know about the "get all students" thing already17:42
srichterI think we walso have to review whether we want to support adding groups17:43
srichterI think it is not needed17:43
th1aAdding groups to sections?17:44
th1aIt is needed for elementary schools and any form-oriented system like Lithuania's.17:44
srichteroh, good point17:45
srichterI wonder whether adding a group should just be treated as add all students in this group17:45
srichterbut then you could not add a student to form 1 and have it appear in the section17:46
srichteron the other hand it is questionable how useful it is17:46
th1asrichter:  It is necessary.17:46
srichterif you have a larger school, you will have multiple math sections for form 117:46
srichterok, so then we just need a convenience method to get all students17:46
srichterin fact, I would hide any other direct data access17:47
th1aignas:  OK, just sent you a mail.17:55
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ignasth1a, so dashboard will contain day tardies/absences and correction requests, both as viewlets18:10
ignasans srichter will send us one more story to be included in this contract ?18:12
th1asrichter:  is that happening?18:16
th1aOr do you want to send it to me to finish?18:16
srichterwhat stories again?18:19
srichterThe session one is trivial18:19
srichterprovide an API call that will return all students18:20
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th1aIsn't there a problem getting the instructors for a section?18:21
th1aignas:  For the sake of your sanity, I think you can assume you've got all the stories.18:21
th1asrichter and I can figure out what we're talking about later.18:21
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povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5787:19:02
povbot/svn/commits: Added Comment Score System.19:02
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5788:19:08
povbot/svn/commits: Create a branch for my work. I expect that I will be breaking the code heavily all over the place, but I first want to finish the unit doctests before implementing UI and other necessary fixes.19:08
ignasth1a, maybe you could tell me when is the next deadline ?19:16
ignasso i could estimate the time we will need for irc meetings/bug fixing19:17
ignass/bug fixing/overhead19:17
ignasthough i guess you should see stories and estimates first19:18
th1aI think you need to tell me when you can have it done.19:18
ignaswhat do you think of april 11 ?19:27
th1aThat's a good date.19:29
ignasi didn't think about the preparation for releases19:29
ignaswill there be any ?19:29
th1aWe need to do the first serious release of SchoolTool 2006 around the end of April.19:30
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regebroHi, I'm trying to make a testcase (in Zope2) that uses a specific ZODB.19:30
regebrosrichter said you had done something like this in schooltool19:31
ignasnow that i have consulted with others, April 18 for completion of this contract, which leaves us with  ~2 weeks for the release sounds less risky19:31
regebrobut all I found was one test that doesn't really use a testcase at all...19:32
ignasthis contract is going to be difficult on user interaction stuff, as some parts are tricky to design properly ...19:32
regebrowhich is the db-conversion-test. Have you done something else that I can't find?19:32
srichterno, that was the one I was referring to19:33
srichterbut you could easily convert this to a unit test19:33
regebroOK, that's what I suspected, srichter.19:33
regebroNo, it copies that database to a temp directory, goes there and starts the server.19:34
srichteryou can do this in a unit test19:34
regebroThere is no way I can make that into a unit test, at least not under Zope2.19:34
srichterI don't know about Zope 219:34
srichterit's definitely not a problem in Zope 319:35
srichterwe do this all the time by bringing up all of the ZCML stuff for functional tests, for example19:35
regebroNot with a custom zodb.19:35
regebroDon't know why it works in Zope3, but there you go. :)19:36
regebroIn Zope2 there is the ZopeTestCase that makes some serious magic to use a DemoStorage. I've been trying to hook into that, and completely failing.19:37
srichterwhy should it not work? all you have to do is bring up the server in Python neglecting the config file19:37
regebroNo, I need to somehow make me own config-file, I think.19:37
srichteryeah, the problem is that Zope 2 can really only do functional or integration tests19:37
srichterZopeTestCase brings up far too much19:37
srichterbut it has to, because everything is coupled to everything else19:38
srichtermmh, I guess the best choice would be not to use ZopeTestCase, though then other stuff might not work19:38
regebroI have no problem makig a DemoStorage, that wraps my Data.fs in readonly mode. But I just can NOT get the app to use it. :/19:38
regebroI tries without ZopeTestCase too, still have no idea how to do it. Ah well.19:39
regebroIt's evidently a pure Zope2 problem.19:39
regebroI was hoping that the technique you used would work for me, but it doensn't.....19:39
regebroThanks anyway.... (and now back to the regular program)19:40
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srichtermgedmin: how do I generate the current datetime with a timezone19:51
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srichtermgedmin: how do I generate the current datetime with a timezone19:52
mgedmingrr, I hate this bug:
mgedminsrichter: import datetime, pytz; return ptz.localize(datetime.datetime.utcnow())19:52
mgedminassuming you want any timezone19:52
srichterwell, you left me a big XXX :-)19:53
mgedminand utc will do19:53
mgedminif you want some specific timezone, I think you have to do19:53
srichteryeah, any timezone will do; it's just to keep ST happy19:53
mgedminreturn pytz.localize(...utcnow()).astimezone(othertz)19:53
srichterI don't want the schooltool.requirement package to depend on the SchoolTool application settings19:54
srichtermmh, pytz.localize not found19:55
srichterok, got it19:56
srichtermakes more sense too19:56
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srichterth1a: are you ready to answer some tough questions about multiple evaluations? :-)19:59
srichterth1a: Never mind, I think I will be okay for now20:05
th1asrichter:  What have you got?20:20
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srichterth1a: oh, I just finally gave up storing evaluations as a mapping21:15
srichterBummer, but it is the right thing to do21:15
srichterI am now using a flat list21:15
th1aGave up?21:16
srichterbut this will make chaining of Evaluation query adapters easier21:16
th1aGave up on last night's idea?21:16
srichteryep, I tried hard to support multi-evaluations in a sensible manner keeping the mapping API21:17
srichterno, last night's idea on grade items stands21:17
srichterI totally love it21:17
th1aI'm not sure what you mean by a mapping.21:17
srichterin the original implementation evaluations were stored as mappings (dictionaries) from requirement -> evaluation21:17
srichternow we decided we want to have multiple evaluations for a requirement, so: requirement -> [eval1, eval2, ...]21:18
th1aWhere are the evaluations contained?21:18
srichterunfortuantely, the Python mapping API is not very useful once you have a mapping to a list21:19
th1aI see.21:19
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srichterI think that Paul will really hate those changes :-)21:47
th1aWe may have a fork.21:48
srichternaeh, not because of the evaluations API21:49
srichterif he really wants the high-level functionality he can add it to his code21:49
srichterlike we write our custom requirement and evaluation implementations21:49
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5789:22:15
povbot/svn/commits: - Implemented inherited requirement interface.22:15
povbot/svn/commits: - Refactored evaluations storage. Made it much simpler and allow for22:15
povbot/svn/commits: multiple evaluations of a requirement. It is up to the packages using this code to add more semantics adn high-level APIs to this implementation.22:15
povbot/svn/commits: Paul, I know you are not going to like this new way, but I suggest you implement the former API in your code and add the necessary semantics.22:15
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th1asrichter:  We're going to have to do a schooltool.commendation screencast.22:41
tiredbonesWhen zope3 is first installed is the directory ~/zope3/etc/package-includes created or do I do create that?22:45
srichterth1a: ok, if you have the technology and do the talking :-)22:46
srichterI'll do it in German :-)22:46
srichterth1a: btw, why did you think of it now?22:47
th1aJust watching that big web frameworks screencast.22:47
srichteryeah, it is really nice22:48
mgedmintiredbones: it is created when you run mkzopeinstance22:48
mgedmin(if you're using instances instead of just the subversion checkout)22:48
tiredbonesmgedmin, thnks22:49
tiredbonessrichter, In your book on ch13 I don't see where you indicate we have to run mkzopeinstance.22:52
srichterchapter 13 is not about installing Zope 3, but about building a first application23:04
srichterI am pretty sure that mkzopeinstance is mentioned in the installation chapter23:05
carljmsrichter: what's the url for that book?23:13
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tiredbonescarljm, google zope3book23:14
carljmseems it's the same one i'm already reading, but I don't see any chapter 1323:15
carljmjust sections a,b,c,d..23:15
srichterchapter 13 is the first chapter in section C I believe23:17
srichterit is the first chapter of the messageboard package23:17
carljmyeah i see, sorry, stupid question.  the TOC just doesn't list things by chapter #23:18
tiredbonescarljm, If you want the code I beleave you have to use the svn version.23:19
carljmtiredbones: what's the svn: url? - i'm trying what's listed on the website and keep getting "no repository found"23:25
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