IRC log of #schooltool for Sunday, 2006-03-05

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*** changes topic to "SchoolTool development | IRC logs at | Dev meetings Tue, 14:30 UTC (16:30 EET)| CanDo dev meetings Tue, 4pm EST"01:09
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mgedminserver up!15:19
mgedminit was the switch15:19
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jelknerth1a: tom, u here?15:56
th1aI am, actually.15:56
th1aI'm on a crazy schedule now.15:56
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jelknerdavid, you made it!16:53
jelknerdwoo: but you are an hour early ;-)16:53
dwooI had no idea when it started so I logged on early to be safe.16:56
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flinthi there..17:14
flintplease give me the url for the classroom coders...17:14
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pcardunehi jelkner17:43
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huynhhas class started yet?17:54
pcardunehuynh: nope, you're 5 minutes early by my watch17:55
huynhokay; thank you17:55
huynhjelkner: what did you say was that one line that needed changing?17:57
jelknerhi linda!17:58
jelknerwhy don't we do this:17:58
jelkneryou are working on maddog17:58
jelkneri'll give you a full working version of the code on your site there, so you can start from that17:59
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huynhhello, flint18:01
pcardunejust in time18:01
flintgood morning... still trying to get my sound card working...18:01
pcarduneis everyone who is supposed to be here, here?18:01
jelknerhuynh: done18:02
jelknertry to start your instance and see if everything works18:02
jelknermorning paul!18:03
flintjelkner, my definition of  "works" is that the instance works and the object is there.18:03
pcarduneflint: that's a pretty good definition18:04
huynhi completely dislike dial-up18:04
pcarduneso, are we ready to start?18:04
jelknerbefore we do, check out this:18:05
jelkneri'll add anotation to each link18:05
pcardunethat looks nice18:06
flintholy cascading style sheets batman!!18:06
huynhis that going to be the new link, instead of the ypal one?18:06
flinthuynh, linda you got it in one.18:06
jelknerok, teacher, sorry for the disruption ;-) i'm ready now...18:07
pcarduneso, per jelkner's request, today will be mostly a question and answer session18:07
pcarduneIt seems that people had trouble understanding how things work for the most part18:08
pcarduneafter getting through the questions that people have, i know jelkner probably has 50 or so, then we will do the homework from last time together18:08
dwooOh, I have a question. What should I have put on my computer in preparation for today's class?18:08
pcardunedo you have an instance of zope3 installed?18:09
pcarduneif so, there is a tarball with the timeclock package18:09
pcarduneI will send it to you18:09
flintpcardune, would it be better to get david an account on maddog?18:10
pcarduneflint: probably, that is to the discretion of jelkner and dwoo...18:10
dwooDo you guys have something against pronouns?18:11
pcardunejust so everyone knows who we are talking about (you)18:11
pcarduneok, I sent it to you18:11
jelkneri'll set up dwoo with a maddog account now...18:12
flintdwoo, I would opine that pronouns are not pythonic.  "It is better to be explicit than obscure"18:12
flintdwoo, understand, my man, I do not like to use ".."'s in scripts... :^)18:12
pcarduneok, so I'm assuming most people did not figure out the homework?18:14
flintthat is correct.18:15
jelknerok, dwoo, you have an account on maddog with everything you need18:15
jelkneri think wdickers id18:15
dwooGreat. What am I supposed to do with it?18:15
flintjeff you did a mkzopeinstance? and assigned him a port?18:15
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jelknerbut you would be correct for the rest of us18:16
jelknerflint: i did all that18:16
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jelknerdwoo: look in $HOME/zope3/lib/python/timeclock18:16
huynhjelkner: it works now. thank you18:16
flintsorry about that...18:16
jelknerhuynh: great!18:16
dwooAnd how am I supposed to do that?18:16
flintwhere is Will?18:17
jelkneri don't know18:17
jelknercan i start with a question?18:17
pcarduneyes, please18:17
jelkner(oops, i just did ;-)18:17
flintJeff is that self-referential?18:17
jelknerQ: is there a standard high-level proceedure for developing zope 3 applications?18:18
jelknerwhat i mean is, it seems like we do this:18:18
jelkner1. create interfaces18:18
jelkner2. write tests18:18
jelkner3. write code18:19
jelkner4. configure browser18:19
pcardunefor zope components, yes18:19
jelkner5. write views18:19
pcarduneI will say they are:18:19
pcardune1. design component/write interfaces18:19
pcardune2. write tests/implementation (they sort of go at the same time18:20
pcardune3. configure components (before configuring browser views)18:20
pcardune4. write browser views18:21
pcardunewhich may include similar sub-procedures depending on what kind of views you are making... but in general are:18:21
pcardune1. configure any autogenerated forms, make configure/write any page templates and browser view classes you need (these all go at the same time also)18:22
pcarduneso, that is specifically for simple zope components18:23
jelknercan we talk about each of these in more detail?18:24
pcarduneI will also add 2. write functional tests for browser views18:24
pcardunejelkner: sure18:24
jelknerJeffrey Shell calls interfaces "Zope 3's type system"18:24
jelkneris that a good way for us to think about that phase in the process?18:25
pcarduneso, the first one, creating interfaces, is a fairly simple step of which the hardest part is making design decisions18:25
pcarduneyeah, that's a good way to think of it18:26
pcardunethe more you work with zope the less you have to think of it in a special way to understand it.  It is like learning any language, there are certain nuances as to why you do something one way that is difficult to put into a simple definition18:27
pcarduneso, just to summarize, when you are creating interfaces, you want to think about how your component is supposed to work18:27
pcarduneor even more specifically, how it is supposed to look and what it is supposed to do18:28
pcarduneIf you look back at the log from the first lesson in which we made these interfaces, you will see a discussion about the merits and drawbacks of what attributes we could choose for our component to have18:29
pcarduneonce you have decided on that stuff, writing the actual interface is a fairly trivial process18:29
pcardunedoes everyone understand this so far?18:30
pcarduneif you want me to talk about schemas vs. interfaces, we can do that aswell, and now would be a good time18:31
pcarduneunless everyone already understands the difference between schemas and interfaces, in which case we can move on18:31
jelkneri don't understand18:31
dwooYou never understand.18:31
flintok, the zope display  is based upon interfaces. interfaces are objects. objects have attributes and methods.  What are shcemas?18:32
jelknerinterfaces are not objects18:32
jelknerthey are more like types18:32
flintok what are objects?18:32
jelknerthey describe in an abstract way what your objects are going to do18:32
jelknerwe created an interface IPerson18:33
jelknerthan we implemented that with Person18:33
jelknerPerson was the class which implemented the interfaces18:33
flintthus in your example is Person an object?18:33
jelknerPerson is a class18:33
jelknerfint = Person()18:34
flintwhat are the objects.18:34
jelknernow flint is an object18:34
flintflint is an instance of the class objects.18:34
jelknerwe used workder18:34
jelknerthe word object is a bit ambiguous18:34
jelknerit is better to speak of classes and instances18:34
flintwe created the class Person and there may be instances that are objects.18:35
jelknerwhere the distinction is clearer18:35
jelknerthe word "object" is used for both18:35
flintso there are no objects?  oh ok both the instance and the class are objects.18:35
flintis the interface and object?18:35
jelkneri don't know whether answering that question would be helpful18:36
pcarduneconclusion: "object" is a very ambiguous words and if you really want to talk about zope3 architecture, you should use the words:18:36
flintthankfully you are not the teacher.18:36
jelknerwhat we need to get at here is what are interfaces used for18:36
pcarduneinterface, implementation, instance, schema, component18:37
flintthankfully you are not the teacher jeff :^)18:37
flintexcellent paul!18:37
pcardunewhen you talk about objects, you might even say an object is a conglomeration of all those things18:38
dwooAlthough technically schemas and interfaces are the same thing, but hey- unnecessarily complicated systems are what keep programmers in business.18:38
pcardunebut then each object is filled with subobjects... and then it gets ambiguous as to what you are specifically referring to18:38
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flintis there any hierarchy to interface, implementation, instance, schema, component?18:39
dwooSchemas are interfaces.18:39
jelknergood question, flint18:39
flintis one the result or contained in another?18:39
pcarduneok, let me explain this18:39
jelknera diagram here would be helpful18:39
dwooAm I on /ignore?18:39
pcardunedwoo: you are on /wrong ;)18:40
flintjelkner, at last words of wisdom! a diagram is essential!18:40
pcardunecomponents contain interface+schema+implementation18:40
dwooBut that's what the book says. You mean elkner spent hundreds of dollars for stuff that's not even right?18:40
dwooNo wonder we never get anything done at school.18:41
pcardunedwoo: you are not completely right, and I don't believe the book completely says that18:41
flintdwoo, elkner says a lot of things...18:41
dwooWait, are we talking about the same book?18:41
pcarduneit doesn't matter, I've read the only two zope3 books there are, and im pretty sure they distinguish between interfaces and schemas18:42
pcarduneOk, i am going to make this clearer to everyone18:42
pcarduneremember how i talked about design using interfaces, and how you wanted to think about what the objects does, and what the object looks like18:43
pcardunei.e. for example, if we were creating a dog component... what does it look like: it has legs, a head, a tail18:43
pcardunewhat does it do:  it barks, it sleeps, it eats18:43
pcardunelegs, head, and tail would be part of the schema18:43
pcarduneschema's describe what things look like: or more technically, what attributes they have18:44
pcarduneinterfaces describe what things do: or more technically, what methods they have18:44
flintpcardune, we are down to needing only to understand implementation and instance,18:44
pcarduneit just so happens that you can define interfaces and schemas in the same class definition, and it just so happens that the standard of naming these schema/interface things is to begin with a capital I18:45
pcardunewhich is why dwoo suggested that they were "technically the same thing"18:46
flintpcardune, you already nailed  components  interface schema and implementation18:46
pcarduneok, moving on18:46
flintinterface and schema are part of components.18:47
pcarduneimplementations take interfaces/schemas and turn them into something that you can actuall do stuff with18:47
pcardunelet me use this analogy18:47
jelknerflint: think of interface and schema as *specifications*18:47
jelknerthey don't do anything until they are implemented18:48
pcarduneplanes all have wings, and engines, and they all fly... this would be a planes schema/interface18:48
pcardunebut there are lots of different kinds of planes... and likewise, there can be multiple implementations of the same interface/schema18:48
jelknerand only the implementations fly, not the specifications! ;-)18:49
pcardunefor each kind of plane, there are very very detailed blueprints that give specific details as to how the wings/engine/flying actually works18:49
flintjelkner, that is a very bad idea.  we are trying to define words exactly.  interfaces and schema are part of components18:49
pcardunethe very detailed blueprint is the implementation18:49
pcardunethe actual plane that you sit in and ride in, that is the instance18:49
flintso the component defines the class that the ariplane is an instance of?18:50
pcarduneso, how do components fit into this?18:50
pcarduneif there was such a thing as a plane component, in the zope sense this would be a total conglomeration of everything that defines a plane, the schema/interface, and the implementation18:51
pcarduneit begins to be a bit more complicated also when you start thinking of hierarchies of schemas/interfaces18:52
flintpcardune, I really liked the dog analogy, because it can chase its own tail which and airplane cannot do.  Sadly we need to move on while I struggle with this.18:53
pcarduneyou might say, well, planes have wings and engines, and they fly... but if we want to be more specific we would say military planes have weapons and ejection seats18:53
flintyou are overloading the object plane with weapons and ejection seats.18:54
pcardunein which case you could define a hierarchy of itnerfaces/schemas that describes planes in general, and also specifics to a certain group of planes18:54
pcarduneflint: not overloading, just extending18:54
flintpcardune, fair enough...18:55
pcardunemilitary plane is a subclass of regular plane18:55
pcarduneso, it this making any more sense?18:55
flintsubclass but not sub component and not sub interface?18:55
pcardunewell, i suppose you could use the term sub interface...18:56
flintbut not sub component?18:56
pcardunedefinitely not sub component18:56
pcarduneIn fact, I would even say there is no such thing as a sub component18:56
flintthe hierarchy then is components have interfaces or interfaces have components?18:57
pcardunecomponents have interfaces18:57
pcardunefor every component there is an associated hierarchy of interfaces18:57
flintpcardune, that is consistent with this conversation.  excellent18:57
flintso components are displayed in zope3?18:58
pcardunethey can be18:58
flintor is what is revealed is the components interface?18:58
pcarduneonly components with browser views are "displayed" in zope318:58
flintbut clearly components and not interfaces are displayed.18:59
pcarduneor rather, only their instances are displayed18:59
pcardunewell, it takes all the parts of a component to display it18:59
dwooIs there another channel where we can ask other zope-related questions without cluttering up the main chat room?18:59
pcarduneyou mean like #zope3-dev?19:00
dwooI meant specifically about timeclock.19:00
pcarduneif you have a specific question that is off topic, you can send it to me silently19:00
jelknerthis is the place to ask about timeclock19:00
flintpcardune, thanks lets get back to timeclock.19:01
dwooUnless of course, we can't be bothered to register at freenode...19:01
flintdwoo, this is remedial zope3 for the brain damaged.  Paul is our nurse. :^)19:01
jelknerdwoo: what is your timeclock question?19:01
jelknertimeclock is the application we are writing as part of this class19:01
dwooNothing right now, just wondering.19:02
jelknerso a question about it is relevant here19:02
flintjelkner, I have a timeclock question!19:02
pcarduneflint: ask away19:02
jelknerno, let dwoo go19:02
jelknerhe asked first19:03
jelknerdwoo: what is your question?19:03
dwooI have no question, remember? It was just a hypothetical.19:03
flintI have an instance displaying at "" how do I make it do something cool?19:03
pcardunethat is kind of a vague question, what do you mean by "cool"?19:04
pcarduneweb applications aren't often that "cool" unless you are google19:05
flintthe instance is called "paul" when you click on it I want it to do something.19:05
flintright now when you click on it nothing happens unless you are logged in and then it gives you a cross reference which is boring.19:06
jelknerpcardune: now would be a good time to talk about the homework19:06
pcarduneok, so this was precisely the point of the homework19:06
flintpcardune, and also how do you log out of zope3?19:06
pcarduneI actually have not found a way to log out of zope319:06
flintsince the display rules change whether or not you  are logged in as manager.19:07
pcardunethat is one thing that should be made clear to anyone with zope2 experience19:07
flintpcardune, I like an honest answer, thanks.19:07
pcardunezope3 is at this point, primarily an infrastructure for making web applications19:08
pcarduneand not for making websites (like zope 2)19:08
pcarduneso a lot of things that you might take for granted in zope 2, like being able to create webpages... you can't do in zope3 (at least yet)19:09
pcarduneso apparently that includes things like logging in and out... in any case, don't try to get to confertable with the zope 3 web UI, because in then end, we wont be using it much19:09
jelknerpcardune: question19:10
pcardunego ahead19:10
jelknerin schooltool, you do quite a bit through the web19:11
jelknerthat is written in zope 319:11
jelknerand our goal here is to get us ready to hack on cando/schooltool19:11
jelknerso we need to understand this19:11
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pcardunewhat is your question?19:11
jelknerdoesn't that contradict what you just said?19:12
jelknerthe zope 3 web UI, because in then end, we wont be using it much19:12
jelknerin schooltool, you do quite a bit through the web19:12
pcarduneyeah, but we aren't using zope 3's web UI... we are using Schooltool's web UI19:13
pcarduneand for timeclock, we are going to create our own Web UI19:13
jelknerand that is what "views" are all about?19:13
pcarduneand skins, which we will get into later19:13
jelknerour first assignment was:19:14
jelkner- make a container view for IPersonContainer (use the containerViews zcml tag)19:14
jelknercan you please that thinking process that goes into doing this?19:15
jelknerdescribe the19:15
jelknerthinking process..19:15
dwooBy the way, does anyone know of a good editor for windows? Wordpad is starting to grate on my nerves.19:15
pcarduneas the students your thinking process should be:19:15
pcardunedwoo: vim19:15
dwooYou fail. Try again.19:16
pcardunefirst, ask yourself, what on earth is a containerViews zcml tag19:16
jelkneri got that far ;-)19:16
flintvi is not a sin it is a penance...RMS19:17
pcarduneyou can answer that yourself by looking it up online... or looking at the example in chapter 1319:17
pcardunepg 106, line 30 for those with a hard copy19:18
flintpcardune, we have a view of the component right now eh?19:18
pcardunewe have several views for the Person component19:19
jelkneri see that, teach, but aside from blindly copying it, i would have no idea how to create it myself19:19
flintpcardune, thanks, excellent paul. well said.19:20
pcardunejelkner: the first time you blindly copy, the second time, you remember what you copied and write it yourself19:20
jelkneris it always the same?19:20
jelknerwhat is "for", "index", "contents", "add"?19:21
pcarduneyes, except for the specific options19:21
pcarduneso in this case, you wouldn't say book.messageboard.....19:21
huynhwhat is the link for ch. 13?19:22
pcarduneyou beat me to it19:23
jelknerwe are looking at 13.8 line 3019:23
huynhgot it19:23
pcarduneso, the first thing you would do is copy this as it is, then change whatever you think is obviously in need of changing (the book.messageboard... part)19:24
pcardunethen you would try it and see if it worked19:24
jelknerok, so we are editing our configure.zcml file, yes19:25
pcarduneat this point you would find out that it did work, because you would be able to click on an instance of PersonContainer and see the contents of it19:25
pcardunejelkner: yes19:25
jelknerin the browser folder19:25
jelknerquestion: can you explain the role of the browser folder and constrast the roles of configure.zcml in timeclock and configure.zcml in timeclock/browser?19:26
flintpcardune, I advise that when you zip up the current state you include the browser subdirectory.19:26
pcardunei believe it is in there no?/19:27
pcarduneif not, i meant to19:27
flintI moved my old one into the directory.  I kept my old directory and created another to open the tarball into.19:27
flintno big deal, unless you changed the browser file.19:28
flintI take it that you must restart zope3 to have these directories re-read eh?19:28
pcarduneflint: yeah19:29
pcardunethe only time you don't have to restart zope3 if when you change page templates (we will get to that)19:29
flintzopectl is our friend...19:29
pcarduneok, so, is everyone looking at their configure.zcml file?19:29
pcardunein the browser folder?19:29
jelkner  <containerViews19:30
jelkner    for="timeclock.interfaces.IPersonContainer"19:30
jelkner    index="zope.View"19:30
jelkner    contents="zope.View"19:30
jelkner    add="zope.ManageContent"19:30
jelkner    />19:30
jelknerdoes order matter?19:30
dwooHey, that wasn't in the tarball.19:30
pcarduneorder does not matter, it is just standard xml markup19:30
jelknerno, it was in the homework19:30
pcardunejelkner: anyways, that is correct19:31
jelknernow, here is how i figured that out: please correct me if my reasoning is broken19:32
jelkner1. we are creating a "containerViews"19:32
jelknerwhich must be a view for a container19:32
jelknerour only container so far is IPersonContainer19:32
jelknerso that must be it19:32
jelkneris that all there is too it?19:33
pcarduneI said "make a container view for IPersonContainer (use the containerViews zcml tag)"... so you could also have determined from that, what the "for" attribute should be :)19:34
pcardunejelkner: that is all there is to it19:34
pcarduneif you want you can look up the meaning of all the attributes19:34
jelknerwhat did that do?19:34
flintthis goes in the configure.zcml file before the </configure>?19:34
jelknerflint: yes19:34
jelknerflint: teach said order doesn't matter, but it much be inside the <configure></configure> tag19:35
flintpcardune, ok I put it on the bottom. do we restart zope now?19:35
pcardunestephan's book doesn't have a zcml reference in it, but Weitershausen's does19:35
pcarduneflint: yes19:35
flintI ordered another copy of  Weitershausen eric-the-weasel stole my original copy.19:36
pcarduneso, now  if you click on an instance of PersonContainer (create one if you haven't already)19:36
pcarduneyou will get another fun page19:36
pcardunethat does't really show much19:36
flintpcardune, what? where? do I restart zope?19:36
pcarduneyes, restart zope19:37
dwooOoh, questions. Many questions.19:37
pcardunebrowse to the server, log in, create a PersonContainer object, then click on it19:37
pcardunedwoo: yes?19:37
flintdwoo, be good and enjoy the retards, see they are funny!19:37
dwooI created one based on the book, and it has none of the attributes elkner's has... where are index, contents, and add coming from?19:38
pcardunedwoo: you created a containerView?19:39
dwooUh, well, no... I did <page>.19:39
pcardunedwoo: you are getting ahead of the game19:40
dwooBut it still works like how you're describing.19:40
pcardunewell, there is more than one way to do the same thing19:40
pcarduneshow me the your entire page tag19:40
flintpcardune, good news paul, "" did not restart.19:41
dwooWordpad apparently doesn't paste well.19:41
flint~flint/bin/zopectl restart says it did... but no dice.  I am backing the change out now.19:41
jelknerlooks good to me19:41
pcarduneok, this is another way which we will get to later19:42
flintjelkner, does "" look good to you?19:42
jelknerflint: use runzope, not zopectl for testing19:42
flintjelkner, why?19:42
jelknerbecause runzope will tell you when things go wrong19:42
dwooIt's easy to turn on and off, too. Just press control c and the instance shuts down.19:42
flintgood reason....19:42
flintwow, zope 3 produces more incomprehensible error messages than I have ever seen before... excellent!19:44
jelknerok, we have 15 minutes, and it would be good to finish the homework19:44
flintjelkner, I am broken.19:44
dwooZope 3 is actually pretty good about its error messages...19:44
jelkner- make an auto generated addform for IPerson19:44
flintI am going back to what worked.19:44
pcardunejelkner: ok, you should be able to do that without any help from me19:45
jelkneryes, i think i can19:45
flintdwoo, which port is your page on?  I will follow along there. or better yet is elkner working on 8080?19:45
dwooI'm running a local zope instance. I have no idea how to get into maddog19:46
jelknerflint: i'm working on my home machine19:46
flint8080 has a component on it called banana.  It is not public.19:46
pcarduneflint: just copy the containerViews tag write out of Stephan's book, and change the for attribute to timeclock.interfaces.IPersonContainer19:47
flintpcardune, I will try. first let me recover.19:47
dwooThat's another thing. What's with this something/somethingelse/yetanotherthing ?19:48
pcardunedwoo: that is the path... you could also put "..interfaces.IPersonContainer" but that isn't as explicit19:48
dwooNo, I meant when you said "s/write/right"19:49
pcarduneok, if you knew vim...19:50
pcardunethat is the command for search and replace19:50
dwoo.... I guess I should've expected something like that...19:50
jelknerpcardune: what are you thinking for homework this week?19:51
jelkneri have a suggestion19:51
pcardunewhat is your suggestion?19:51
tiredbonesIt looks like the irc logs are going to have some interesting reading.19:51
jelknerwhy don't we go through the short tutorials on the worldclock site?19:52
dwooThis is nothing...19:52
jelkneri mean worldcookery19:52
tiredbonesDo I have a Zope object or a OOP object?19:52
flintback in business... the container view changed nothing as far as I can see on the page at ""19:53
jelknereach one developes a super small application that will reinforce what we have been learning19:54
pcarduneflint: click on "paul"19:54
jelknerthen we could move on next week19:54
pcarduneif you want19:54
jelknerdid you have something else in mind?19:55
pcardunewell, that is fine19:55
flintif i am un-authenticated i get a logon.  If I am manager I get ++etc++site and a blank screen.19:55
pcarduneit is just that it wont necessarily fit the pattern of how we have been doing things19:55
pcardunewhich may confuse people19:55
flintthe userid is flint the password is the yellow thing.19:55
pcardunebut if you think you can understand it without getting to confused, then go ahead, you can always email me questions too19:56
huynhwhen do you usually check email?19:56
pcarduneevery waking minute19:56
pcardunea few times a day19:56
pcardune(thanks to gmail notifier)19:56
flinthuynh, linda you are a saint.  what do you think of all this going on?19:57
pcarduneyou will get a quick response19:57
huynhflint: if what's needed for the class is a short detour every once in a while, then it's all good19:57
pcarduneflint: that looks the way it should19:57
pcarduneyou don't see anything because your PersonContainer is empty (seeing as you didn't create any Person objects)19:58
flintpcardune, ok if you say so.  I saw your access which was fun.19:58
huynhyou have to click the <top> button on the left side19:58
huynhthen you can add objects19:58
flinthuynh, linda, you said objects, tish that is so cool!!!19:59
flinthuynh, sorry I get carried away when folks talk like that...20:00
huynhthat's fine20:00
flinthuynh, linda thanks I actuall added and deleted an object.20:00
huynhso, since we have the homework, is class dismissed?20:00
flinthuynh, I am with you linda. Untill next week Dr. Paul?20:02
flintpcardune, btw I actuall learned something this week.  thanks.20:03
huynhflint: is everyone on a different channel or something?20:04
dwooI can't believe schooltool and freenode let us waste their banwidth like this.20:04
pcardunehuynh: we are still discussing the homework20:04
pcardunei will send it in an email ater class20:04
pcarduneso, yes, class dismissed20:04
huynhalright; I'll see all of you later20:05
dwooWho is we?20:05
flintdwoo, your obsession with pronouns again eh?20:05
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dwooYou need more jengajams.20:05
pcardunewe is me and jelkner20:06
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flintstephan were you entertained?20:08
flintth1a, Tom, is this simply making you crazy?20:08
th1aI'm glad I never had you as a student, flint.20:09
flintIt feels good to be the perfect bad example.  I am outa here!20:09
flintth1a, thanks! you are correct.20:10
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th1apcardune:  I wonder if it makes more sense to start by doing something like srichter's commendation package, rather than starting with pure Zope 3 objects.20:11
th1aThe whole Zope 3 ZMI thing has its own landmines.20:11
pcarduneyeah, no kidding20:12
pcarduneI haven't actually looked at the commendation package20:12
th1aSheesh!  What's the point in writing documentation if nobody looks at it.20:12
th1aI have to figure out where that needs to go!20:13
th1aWe need to make a pdf or something.20:13
pcarduneyou mean the README.txt or some other docs?20:13
th1aThere are several doctests in that package.20:14
th1aPlus the code is pretty heavily commented.20:14
pcardunei'll take a look20:14
th1a(and you're welcome to add to / revise it).20:14
pcardunedid you ever get my email about svn access?20:15
th1aUm... not sure.20:15
pcarduneremember there was an email from a guy name mitchel about svn access to the cando repository?20:16
th1aIs he one of your guys?20:16
pcarduneand you said he needed to fill out a contributor aggreement20:16
pcarduneyeah, he is one of our guys now20:17
th1aOK.  I see it, and never read it for some unknown reason.20:18
th1aDo you know how to do that?20:19
th1aWe've been in a bit of a state of chaos with jinty traveling and me traveling and sick.20:20
pcarduneyeah, i figured as much20:20
pcarduneI do not know how to do anything with the svn repo20:21
pcardunelet alone have access20:21
pcarduneas far as i know20:21
th1aI'm sure I could figure it out, but I'm really, really crunched right now.  This was a bad time to get sick for a week.20:22
th1aWe should be able to get it done this week, though.20:22
th1ajinty is going to be the official, paid sys admin once he gets back from SA, so that'll help.20:23
srichteryay, a real sys admin! :-)20:23
pcarduneok, great20:24
srichterth1a: I will be at your place between 9:00-9:30 tomorrow20:32
th1aOK.  I was up at 5:30 today, so it shouldn't be a problem.20:33
srichterhe he20:34
srichterth1a: do we need to set an agenda?20:34
srichter(I have ideas btw)20:34
th1aI'm pretty much going out of my mind right now, so if you'd set the agenda, I'd appreciate it.20:35
srichterI think the best will be to work on the term and timeflow API by writing the documentation; I started this weekend already and the issues are coming like crazy20:38
srichterwe will have to answer some tough questions tomorrow20:38
th1asrichter:  If you can put some of the questions on the agenda so I can think about them a bit, that will help.20:47
srichterwell, I'll try, but I am not sure how well I can formulate them20:48
srichterI will checkin the README.txt file tonight though20:49
srichterth1a: do you think we could get a demo somewhere on how powerschool handles terms?20:55
srichterI just want to see what they can do20:55
th1aCalling my friend the PowerSchool user...20:59
tiredbonessrichter, when I run and get back: Total: 0 tests, 0 failures, 0 errors. Does this mean the test ran ok?21:00
tiredbonesIt looks like no test ran.21:01
th1asrichter:  He's not home, but I left a message.21:01
srichtertiredbones: no tests ran; what was your full command?21:02
tiredbonespython -vpy --dir timeclock21:02
tiredbonespython -vpu --dir timeclock21:02
srichteris that pure Zope 3 or SchoolTool?21:03
srichtertry -s instead of --dir21:03
srichterwhere is your timeclock directory?21:04
srichtercan you provide the content of the file in the timecliock directory?21:04
tiredbonestimeclock is here - /usr/local/Zope-3.2/zope/src/timeclock21:05
tiredbonestimeclock is here - /usr/local/Zope-3.2/zope3/src/timeclock21:05 content?21:05
tiredbonesWhat do you mean by this, content?21:06
srichterwell, you have to actually write tests to run any21:06
srichterthe test runner looks for a tests module or package in your package21:06
tiredbonesok, that test is in timeclock.21:07
tiredbonesdoes the test have to be a part of the path?21:07
tiredbonestimeclock is here - /usr/local/Zope-3.2/zope3/src/timeclock/README.txt21:07
srichterwell, that is the text file but not a test21:08
tiredbonesDo I have to put the full path in   /usr/local/Zope-3.2/zope3/src/timeclock/README.txt21:08
srichterlook at zope.viewlet/tests.py21:09
tiredbonesThat all the log shows for what I'm trying to do.21:09
srichteryou do not need custom setUp and tearDown functions yet, but it has the basic test boilerplate21:09
tiredbonesSo, should it run?21:10
srichterwhat do you mean should it run?21:10
tiredboneswell, if I run "python -vpu -s timeclcok, and get zero for all values can I assume the test ran ok?21:12
srichterright, because currently you have only a simple text file21:12
srichteryou have not told the framework that this file is a test21:12
srichteras I said, check out zope.viewlet/ to implement your file21:13
tiredbonesthanks for your time.21:13
th1atiredbones:  I've found this process to be cryptic as well, so don't feel bad.21:13
srichterZope 3 does everything explicitely21:14
tiredbonesYou know, I actually feel I'm learning this stuff.21:15
tiredbonesEven thought I ask doob q..21:15
srichterfrom just looking at a package, the system cannot know whether text files are meant to be tests or not21:15
srichterso we have to tell the system21:15
srichterthe way we tell the system (in this case the test runner is by placing a special module called "tests" in the package. Once this module is found the test runner knows (through conventions) how to collect the tests21:16
tiredbonesI think all the read I've been doing on zope 3 tell me how to do something but not the why. This will come later I hope, as I learn more.21:18
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tiredboneslooking good, I got the test to at least fail.21:35
th1atiredbones:  The rest is easy.21:37
tiredbonesth1a, Q. when I run "python -vpu -s timeclock" is test runner executeing my or the system's
th1aI'm not sure what you mean.21:40
tiredbonesWhich then calls my
th1aIt is calling in the current directory.21:41
th1aWhat happens after that, I don't know.21:41
tiredbonesThat's what I thought.21:44
tiredbonesThe then tell zope what I what to test. Yes?21:45
th1aThat sounds right...21:45
tiredbonesby the way, how are you feeling/21:46
th1aOK.  Tired, but functioning.21:47
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