IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2006-02-06

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srichterok, good news: Steelers won the Superbowl, so Tom will be in a good mood! :-)11:37
*** srichter changes topic to "SchoolTool development | IRC logs at | Buildbot: | Dev meetings Mon, 14:30 UTC (16:30 EET)| CanDo dev meetings Tue, 4pm EST | Steelers win Superbowl XL: Tom is in a good mood!"11:38
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erchachea second...i need to test new ssh acount for external backup's backup ;-)15:51
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erchachedoomed communications!16:29
erchachei need mirinet!16:29
th1aerchache:  What are you talking about?16:30
th1aHi everyone.16:30
srichterhi16:30 sending backup files to a ssh container....16:30
erchacheand fails a lot!16:30
srichterso all the infrae guys should be here16:30
erchachecisco 2900 are bad configured16:30
kitblakehi everybody16:30
th1aYes, I want to welcome the Infrae team.16:31
erchachefucked less than santa claus16:31
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th1aerchache: OK, settle down.  We're having a meeting here.16:31
th1asrichter:  How have things been going in Rotterdam?16:32
srichterwe have done the UI-based intro this morning/afternoon16:32
kitblakeStephan's been totally entertaining16:32
srichterand they have pages of UI suggestions already :-)16:32
th1aFresh eyes = good.16:33
srichter(just kidding, they are still working on it ;-)16:33
* srichter notes OT: THE STEELERS WON!!! (see title)16:33
thisfredstefan's intoduction was pretty enlightening16:33
j-wesp. when he was confused himself what action to click next...16:34
th1aSteelers win!  Tom doesn't fall asleep until almost 5:00 AM, thus is a zombie now.16:34
faassenI'm not sure I'm enlightened yet, but overall I don't feel very enlightened today. :)16:34
* srichter saw the whole superbowl without a minute of commercials :-)16:34
kitblakeStephan is not much better16:34
* thisfred is sharp as a knife16:35
th1aI might as well be jetlagged.16:35
* mgedmin always thinks superbowl is some strange cereal eating contest16:35
srichterhe he16:35
th1aAlso, I want to welcome gintas back to the fold.16:35
faassenI think I was in the US once when The Game was on.16:35
gintasas a matter of fact, I have to run out in a few minutes16:35
th1agintas:  It is great to have you back.16:35
gintasbut I'm back, and I'm bad ;)16:36
th1aActually, a quick introduction to the Infrae team might be a good idea.16:37
th1aI don't recognize everyone.16:37
ignasyeah, who ate these guys ?16:37
faassenignas: you know who I am.16:37
faassengintas: so do you.16:37
th1aWho ate Infrae?16:37
faassenmgedmin: so do you16:37
mgedminhi, faassen!16:37
alga_so do I16:37
faassenwhat's worse, I can identify *you* guys in person.16:37
thisfredAliens ate my Infrae16:37
faassenalga_: right!16:37
ignasthisfred, say hello to vidas :)16:38
kitblakeAll your base....16:38
th1aI can see I'm going to need to use more classroom management skills at these meetings now.16:38
thisfredok, seriously: I'm Eric Casteleijn, I work at Infrae as a developer, and am interested in education from previous work experience16:38
th1aThat's what happens when erchache sets the tone.16:39
j-wI'm Jan-Wijbrand - j-w for short - and I'm a developer with a focus on end-user experience and UI16:39
alga_j-w is actually pronounce yeh-weh, not jay-dub16:39
j-wright! :-)16:40
faassenI'm Martijn Faassen and I've been doing zope stuff for a while.16:40
kitblakeI'm Kit Blake, together with Martijn Faassen a founder of Infrae. I focus on thr front end of the company.16:40
thisfredwell, what *you* call the front end ;)16:40
th1aFront end of the company or the software?16:40
ignasI am Ignas Mikalajūnas  - and I'm a developer without a focus16:40
kitblakeI focus on the front end of software too16:40
mgedminI am Marius Gedminas - I've been working on the Python version of SchoolTool from the very beginning, so you can ask me questions16:41
* mgedmin wants to add one item to the agenda: 16:30 UTC meeting time conflicts with his teaching duties this semester16:41
th1aI'm Tom Hoffman, former English teacher, crappy Python hacker & now SchoolTool project manager.16:42
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th1amgedmin:  OK.  What do you suggest?16:42
srichterhi, I am Stephan and everyone knows me. Yipee! :-)16:42
mgedminalga chickened out ;)16:42
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vidaspI am Vidas Pažusis - developer + physics16:42
faassenth1a: I got a reasonably good score on that online English language test that these POV guys whizzed too.16:42
th1aI wouldn't complain about later.16:43
faassenvidasp: I don't think I've met you yet, right?16:43
mgedminth1a, I have lectures from 14:00 to 18:00 UTC16:43
vidaspfaassen: you are right16:43
th1amgedmin:  I gues that means earlier then.16:43
th1aOr another day?16:43
mgedmineither would be fine16:43
mgedminperhaps it is time to upgrade calendar.pov.lt16:43
mgedminto a version of SchoolBell that supports timezones16:44
algaI'm Albertas Agejevas, and I've been working with SchoolTool from the very beginning with Marius and SteveA16:44
* th1a has been getting dangerously nocturnal.16:44
mgedminso that I could input all my lectures16:44
mgedminth1a, either earlier or another day (e.g Tuesday) would be fine16:44
mgedminI have more lectures on Wednesdays and Fridays16:44
erchacheI'm Alejandro Sánchez, im working like system administrator on University of Seville, and i have benn working with SchoolTool since last summer16:45
th1aHow much earlier would it need to be?16:45
kitblakeis later a problem?16:45
srichtersince my schedule is flexible now, I don't care about a time anymore16:45
th1aIs after 1800 too late in Lithuania?16:45
erchachei on defcom 5 now :-P16:45
erchachehere is 15:4516:46
kitblakemaybe much much earlier would catch th1a in his nocturnal hours16:46
erchacheon Spain16:46
algaI have lectures on Mondays 18:00-20:00 EET16:46
algaor 16:00-18:00 UTC16:46
th1aSo if it was earlier on Monday it would have to be 1300?16:47
mgedminif the meeting happened 14:30-15:30 EET (12:30-13:30 UTC), then I could make it to the Uni at 16:00 EET (14:00 UTC)16:47
th1a1230 = 7:3016:47
* thisfred wonders if this is a good time to bring up daylight saving16:47
faassenand lunchtime.16:47
th1aOK, how's Tuesday look?16:47
mgedminyeah, lunchtime for me too16:48
mgedminI'm +1 for Tuesday16:48
algathisfred: wait for a month or so ;-)16:48
erchachea month for next release?16:48
th1aTuesday 1430?16:48
th1aAny complaints about that?16:48
algaworks for me16:49
mgedminthat's an idea for a time-based release schedules: "we release whenever the DST bit flips"16:49
th1aerchache:  We're getting to it.16:49
kitblaketuesday at 14:30 EET is ok16:49
srichterth1a: are you sure you can make a meeting at 8:30?16:49
j-wkitblake: EET?16:49
srichteroh ok, tz conversion problem16:49
th1aWhat time is it now?16:49
kitblake13:30 CET16:49
mgedminI assumed 14:30 UTC (16:30 EET)16:49
th1aI mean 1430 UTC.16:49
srichterok, so same time on Tuesday!!!!16:50
thisfred+1 ;)16:50
mgedmineveryone seems happy with that16:50
ignas+1 /me was not going to attend System engineering anyway ;)16:50
th1aOK.  I'll send out an email.16:50
*** mgedmin changes topic to "SchoolTool development | IRC logs at | Buildbot: | Dev meetings Tue, 14:30 UTC (16:30 EET)| CanDo dev meetings Tue, 4pm EST | Steelers win Superbowl XL: Tom is in a good mood!"16:51
thisfredthats 3x +1, so 1730?16:51
mgedmindoes this mean we will have a meeting tomorrow? ;-)16:51
th1amgedmin:  I'll let you off the hook.16:51
th1aMain item of business:16:51
th1areleases for Dapper.16:52
th1aThey'd like to have these by the 23rd.16:52
th1aI guess jinty (our faithful Debian release manager) isn't here.16:52
th1aZope 3.2 is supposed to be in Dapper.16:52
mgedminyep, zope3 version 3.2.0-1 is in dapper16:53
tiredbonesth1a, is Dapper the code name for the next release of ubuntu/16:53
* mgedmin wonders how much disk space would a dapper chroot take16:53
mgedmintiredbones, yes16:53
th1aAt this point, I'm not planning to try to create releases from the trunk.16:53
* mgedmin thinks that is a good idea16:54
th1aWe just need to update our stable branches.16:54
th1ajinty, iirc, thought they didn't work with Zope 3.2, but all tests passed for me.16:54
th1aExcept for one typo in a Zope 3 error message, I think.16:55
th1aIt might be good if someone ofther than me tried this.16:55
srichterth1a: I am with you on that; we are not ready to support the current trunk16:55
th1asrichter:  Has the distinction between the release branches and the trunk come up with Infrae?16:56
erchachein this case a update no?16:56
faassenth1a: no, I don't think so.16:56
erchacheCan i use a easy way to convert a trunk into a upgradable stable version?16:56
faassenth1a: I was going to ask questions about which version of schooltool uses which version of z3.16:56
srichterth1a: no we have not been in technical details yet16:57
faassenth1a: but didn't get around to it yet.16:57
mgedminerchache, no16:57
th1aOne thing is, SchoolTool has to have a very annual release cycle, around the school year.16:57
th1aSo for this school year, we put out SchoolTool Calendar, which just does calendaring.16:58
erchachestep by step16:58
th1aAnd we also released SchoolBell, which is just calendaring for small orgs in general (none of the school specific stuff).16:58
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ignaserchache, no you can't go back, sorry, unless you are willing to write some/a lot of python code16:59
th1aThe goal of SchoolBell in general was to get a few more random contributors to the project, but it hasn't paid off yet except in bug reports.16:59
tiredbonesth1a, would it not be better to not  be in sink with the school year. This would give time before the school year begins.16:59
erchacheput on my long time To-Do list16:59
tiredbonesto iron out problems.17:00
th1atiredbones:  Well, we need to be in sync with the school year, but our next release will need to be much further ahead of the school year.17:00
th1aWe need to have a beta in April.17:00
th1aRelease at the end of June.17:00
erchachei need to work more on web translation to publish into spanish linux forum schooltool work17:00
erchacheand perhaps get more potentials programmers and resources for project17:01
th1aSo... after SchoolTool Calendar came out, srichter did a big reorganization of the tree.17:01
th1aWhich made it much more like the Zope 3 tree.17:01
th1aAnd there's a lot of new functionality since then.17:02
srichterand the code base shrank a good bit :-)17:02
th1aWe backported all the calendaring related bugfixes up to a couple of months ago, when we did our last bugfix release.17:02
th1aBut iirc, now we'll have to decide which fixes since then ought to be backported.17:03
srichterI guess not too much bug fixing has been done since then17:03
th1aThere is one big bug that has been driving erchache (even more) crazy.17:04
th1aIt is fixed in the trunk.17:04
erchacheyepa....recursive events17:04
erchachewith this schoolbell has 100% operativity17:04
th1aerchache:  That's an exaggeration.17:04
erchachetypical spanish....sorry :-$17:04
erchachebut....this issue is a "big" bug for me17:05
th1aWe are all a bit frustrated by the fact that there are lots of calendaring fixes that we'd like to be doing, but we also have to get this new functionality done.17:05
erchachebecause we planned timetables with 6 month before17:05
erchacheth1a: i know i know....dont worry about time....17:06
th1aIt was important to have this project actually release something after several years.17:06
th1aAnyhow... enough back story.17:06
th1aSo... one specific question is whether it will be possible for anyone at POV to give us some time between now and the 23rd.  If not, I understand.  I lost track of the Ubuntu release cycle, so we're a bit off balance here.17:08
mgedminI think this won't be a problem17:09
th1aBeyond that, it seems like the main thing to be done is to go back through the checkins and decide which ones to backport?17:09
* mgedmin defers to Aiste on scheduling questions17:10
mgedminhm... there were *many* checkins17:10
th1aI know :-(17:10
Aisteth1a: yes, we can give you some time17:10
th1aAiste:  Thanks.  That helps.17:11
Aistehaving in mind, that we have a looong weekend starting 16th of Feb17:11
algafeb 16 is the independence day here17:12
th1aI suppose should refer to at least some specific changesets17:12
mgedmin(and vice versa)17:13
th1aAny other thoughts about how to approach this?17:13
mgedminidentify issues that plague the last released version17:14
th1aI don't actually recall any big calendaring bugs that we fixed lately except for erchaches, but there are lots of little timezone fixes, aren't there?17:14
mgedminthen look for checkins to backport17:14
* mgedmin prods ignas, the famous timezone bug fixer17:14
* th1a was thinking this sounded like a job for ignas.17:15
ignasmgedmin, err, got a fix, got stuck on a test, has not commited yet ...17:15
mgedminbut you have committed a bunch of other fixes, right?17:15
mgedminso you ought to be able to find them17:15
ignasmgedmin, some, yes17:15
mgedminfor backporting17:15
ignasmgedmin, was a long time ago, but yes i can17:16
th1aTimeline:  I assume jinty will want to put out a release candidate a week ahead, which would mean we'd want something before Independence Day.17:17
ignasth1a, Independence of which country ?17:18
ignasoh ;)17:18
th1aMaybe I'll finally make some Zeppelins.17:18
th1aAnyhow, priorities:17:19
th1a1) Make sure the packages work with Zope 3.2.17:19
th1a2) Make sure erchache's recurrent event bug (which causes events to appear before they occur) is properly backported.17:20
th1a3) Other calendaring & timezone bugfixes.17:20
mgedminsounds good17:20
ignasi guess i can tackle 1,3 and 2 ...17:21
th1aI'll make sure jinty knows what's going on.17:21
th1aWe'll add this to the next contract.17:21
ignasth1a, how's the attendance ? are you happy with it ?17:21
th1aI am happy with the attendance.17:22
th1aMy only concern is the speed of the sparklines.17:22
th1aBut that's a frill.17:22
mgedminspeaking about rendering speed17:23
mgedminsometimes I wish zope 3 had something like zope 2's CallProfiler17:23
ignasif my brains will become operational i'll optimize them a bit more and maybe even document the process (my brains can't promise anything at the moment though :/)17:23
srichtermgedmin: theere is a runurl script that provides profiler stats17:24
srichter(I don't know about CallProfiler, so I cannot say more)17:24
mgedminsrichter, would it be possible to hook something like that up to the devmode menu?17:24
ignassrichter, is there a way to make something like a ++profile++ namsepace ?17:24
mgedminanyway, back to sparklines:17:24
mgedminI suspect that if we extracted all the sparkline data17:25
* th1a predicts that within two years a third party will have written an attendance implementation for SchoolTool that uses a RDBMS.17:25
mgedmindirectly in the attendance form17:25
mgedminand passed it pre-processed to a generic sparkline generator17:25
srichtermgedmin: that could be investigated17:25
mgedminthen it might be faster17:25
srichtershould be doable17:25
mgedminand the sparkline images can be safely cached17:25
mgedminso if several students have similar attendance stats (e.g. they never miss lessons)17:26
mgedminthe same image can be used by the browser17:26
th1amgedmin:  Interesting.17:26
mgedminreducing round-trips considerably17:26
srichterI think this is the right sort of strategy17:26
th1aI imagine you've seen this:
mgedminwake up, vidasp!17:28
srichterth1a: ahh, no, I had not seen that17:28
th1aIt is a kind of odd approach.17:29
mgedminI haven't seen this one, but I've seen other sparkline generators like this17:29
mgedminhmm, MIT-licenced Python code17:29
thisfredit is python17:29
vidaspit's almost identical to our sparkline generator17:30
vidaspdata uri don't work in ie17:30
th1aHm...  I hadn't specifically mentioned it because I'd assumed you'd Google "python sparkline."17:30
th1aOK.  Regardless, we've covered our main work item for this meeting, so I should let POV go.17:31
mgedminthanks ;)17:32
th1aNice having a big group today.17:32
* th1a strikes the virtual gavel.17:32
algaweekly ST developers conference :-)17:32
kitblakebye all17:32
ignaswe'll really have to formalize our meatings to make the information exchange more efficient17:32
th1aEspecially with more people.17:32
algawe'll really have to formalize our meatings to make them more nutritious17:33
tiredbonesth1a, your classroom management are very good.17:33
faassensome of this was beyond us.17:33
faassenlike, we have no clue where sparklines are used.17:33
kitblaketh1a, would sending out an agenda in advance be too formal?17:33
tiredbonesth1a, your classroom management skills are very good.17:33
th1aI send out agendas beforehand.17:34
th1aAlthough I've migrated to just trying to get updates and cover one major issue in the meeting.17:34
srichterI could not show you sparklines, because the attendance was broken :-)17:34
th1aThe attendance was broken?17:34
srichterwell, it was because I just kept updating the trunk17:35
srichterif I delete the Data.fs it will work17:35
th1aThe thing that puzzles me about managing IRC meetings is that it seems like the way to make them more efficient is to cover more things via email.  But if you want to cover things via email, why do you need an IRC chat?17:36
th1aSo I like the IRC time to still be a bit chatty, as long as the group is still fairly small.17:37
th1aBut I'd say we're at the edge of small now.17:37
srichterth1a: I don't think that all Infrae guys are going to show up for all meetings17:37
th1aIf not slightly over it.17:37
th1asrichter:  I wouldn't expect so either.17:37
srichterso it might be ok next week17:38
th1afaassen:  So srichter will show you the sparklines, hopefully.17:38
th1aSome sparklines would be nice chrome for the gradebook, too, although I doubt we'll get to it.17:39
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th1aAny other questions or comments from Rotterdam?17:39
srichterth1a: what is the priority list for infrae?17:40
j-wnot from me for this moment17:40
srichterth1a: I said: gradebook, demographic info, UI?17:41
j-wnice to see all the names attached!17:41
th1asrichter:  Yes.17:41
srichterth1a: any word about CSV import/export17:41
th1aJust make sure you talk to them about weighting and other arcane gradebook stuff they'll be dealing with.17:41
srichteryep, I will do the technical stuff now and tomorrow17:42
th1aIt is probable.17:42
srichterok, so you have not heard from everyone yet?17:42
th1aThat's the stuff that you can help them more than I can.17:42
th1aI've heard from people, I guess I haven't made a final decision.17:42
th1aThe response is a bit mixed.17:43
srichteroki doki17:43
th1aIt is really a time issue.17:43
th1aBut it is probable.17:43
th1aIt may end up happening a bit late.17:44
th1aWe'll see.17:44
srichterthe guys here identified a lot of UI issues so we should definitely allow time for that17:44
th1aDefinitely explain the idea to Infrae.17:44
srichterI am also going to show them blackboard a bit for the gradebook17:44
th1a(of the spreadsheet import/export).17:44
th1asrichter:  Good.17:44
th1aOK.  I think we're on the same page.17:45
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mhzth1a: hi there22:37
mhzth1a: i know there's need for volunteers to translate both web pages and schooltool22:38
mhzth1a: what is priority #1?22:38
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