IRC log of #schooltool for Wednesday, 2006-01-11

jelknerpcardune: when do you go back to school?00:00
pcardunefriday night00:00
jelknerahh, soon00:00
pcarduneor, i'll be back at school on sunday00:00
jelknerwhat is the time line for making the structural changes to cando to make it work with the current schooltool development branch?00:01
jelknerand have the functionality that last year's version did?00:01
pcardunethat's been done for more than a month :)00:02
jelkneroh, then i should be trying it out, yes?00:02
pcarduneif you do a checkout from cvs, you will have the same functionality as cando200500:02
pcardunei mean svn... not cvs00:02
jelknerok, i need some installation instructions00:02
jelknerjinty: what's the packaging plan for cando?00:03
jelkneri mean dapper wise.00:03
jelkneri was asking paul if it was time for me to upgrade my test server to dapper00:03
jelknerbut you are the one i should ask about that, yes?00:03
jintyI can start making experimental packages as soon as I have packages for Zope 300:03
jintyI am working on those now, but they may be delayed until 3.2.100:04
jelknerwhen is that?00:04
jintyJim was saying in less than a month00:04
pcardunesvn co cando00:04
pcardunecd cando00:04
pcardunecd SchoolTool00:05
pcarduneand that's it00:05
jintyI am back-porting the patches I need to the zope 3.2 release branch now00:05
pcarduneoh right, and then ./schooltool-server.py00:05
jelkneri'm going to upgrade the test server to dapper00:05
pcarduneto run it00:05
jelknerand check out the svn version this week00:06
jelkneri'll report back at our next meeting00:06
jelknershould we wait two weeks for that?00:06
pcardunethat's a good idea00:06
jelknerno sense meeting until we have something important to do00:06
jintyjelkner: you are going to have to remove the old cando packages before you upgrade00:06
pcardunetuesday's my first day of school next week, I will probably have many things to do, we might also have to change the day we meet (i have to check my schedule)00:07
jelkneri'm going to do that00:07
jelknerok, please email us as soon as you know00:07
jelknerso we can work that out00:07
jelknerok, then00:07
jelkneri'll keep up with progress through mitchell00:08
jelknerplease keep helping him get further into all this00:08
jelkneri'll setup the new server and look over the functional test links you gave me00:08
jelknerand we can meet again in two weeks00:09
pcardunethen I'll talk to you then00:09
jelknerthat's it, then, meeting adjourned.00:09
jelknerjinty: i can run the svn version and the old package version side by side, yes?00:10
jelknerwill the upgrade to dapper break the package?00:10
jintyno they will not break the package00:11
jelkneri don't have much data on the current version00:11
jelknerbut it would be nice to figure a way to move it rather than reenter it in the new version00:12
jintyapt should prevent you from upgrading zope though00:12
jelknerwell, i'll back everything up and give it a whirl00:12
pcardunejelkner: just copy the Data.fs... that wont change between ubuntu releases00:12
jelknergood point00:12
jelknerok, i gotta get home00:13
jintyI reacall there was a schooltool generation that was not in schooltool for cando00:13
jintythat might break things00:13
jelkneri'll talk to you all later...00:13
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th1apcardune:  Sorry I missed the CanDo meeting.  I'm about three hours out of phase with reality today.00:32
pcarduneth1a: that's alright... i know exactly how you feel00:33
th1aWell, you've got more of an excuse since you've been switching timezones.00:34
pcarduneIf you look at the log, i'm thinking that cando will eventually just be a set of customized views on top of schooltool00:36
th1aThat's what I'd like to see.00:36
pcarduneare at least specifically the "competency tracking" part of it00:38
pcarduneI'd like to talk to you about requirement browser views00:38
pcardunehow are you going to want to use them for the gradebook?00:39
pcardunehow will they be integrated00:39
th1aWell, I have to read srichter's gradebook proposal.00:41
pcardunedo you know where I can get that?00:41
pcardunei would like to read that00:41
th1aI can mail it to you later.00:41
th1aLike I said, I'm running about three hours behind reality right now.00:42
pcarduneok, thanks00:42
th1aSo the three of us will discuss it soon.00:42
pcarduneok great00:42
th1aWhat's your schedule like for Thursday afternoon, EST.00:42
pcarduneI'm pretty much free all day00:44
pcardunejust give me a time and i'll plan around that00:44
th1aLet's meet at 2:00 PM EST.  I'll be up at Stephan's place.  That'll give us some time to discuss things face to face and then bounce the ideas off you.00:45
th1aI'll send you the proposal sometime tonight.00:46
th1aWhat part of the world are you in right now?00:46
pcardunewest africa00:46
th1aOK.  Just checking.00:46
pcardunethats GMT00:46
srichterth1a: I am back; once you are done reading the document, we could talk about i, if necessary00:59
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srichterpcardune: th1a: ok, here are my comments to the meeting01:16
pcarduneim here and glad to hear them01:17
srichter1. Paul, keep doing what you are doing. I think a Virginia-specific competency package is the right way01:17
th1aI guess I should read over the notes.01:17
srichter(I agree with Jeff that we can refactor later)01:17
srichter2. Gradebook integration; if this is not happening for ST 2006, I personally think it will be *OK*01:18
srichterthere is a lot about the traditional gradebook implementation that we have to figure out first, before we can integrate the much more complex CanDo requirements01:19
pcardunethat implies that CanDo won't coincide with ST 200601:19
pcarduneor at least the competency tracking part01:20
srichterno, it just won't be as integrated01:20
srichteryou have cando running right now on top of ST SVN01:20
srichterso it is coinciding already01:20
srichtereventually, we want to make competency grading part of the gradebook01:21
srichterunfortunately, I do not understand the gradebook use cases/implementation enough yet to envision the integration01:21
srichterand I will have only a limited time working on the grade book01:22
pcarduneoh, ok01:22
srichterone thing we want to avoid is that you develop something in anticipation of a feature that is not well understood01:22
pcardunethat makes good sense01:23
srichterthe CanDo problem is much better understood and developed, so let's keep it that way :-)01:23
srichter3. new name for CanDo: (S)choolTool (Co)mpetency (T)racking = SCoT01:24
th1aOK... caught up now.01:24
th1aIt isn't yet clear to me how far or quickly we'll be able to integrate grading and competency tracking.  Or, for that matter, whether or not it would be a good idea from a UI perspective.01:26
th1aOr, to be more precise, I think we're well on our way to having underlying models that work well together and will facilitate cool integration at some point.01:27
srichterth1a: yep, I totally agree... as I said, we do not understand the problem well yet01:27
srichterth1a: I agree completely01:27
th1aIn some ways it may be very simple.01:27
th1aAcross the top of your spreadsheet you have assignments or competencies, you assessthem with grades or rubric scores.01:28
th1asrichter:  My first reaction is that I want to make "batch 1" its own contract.01:29
th1aWe've been making our contracts too long & multipart.01:29
srichterI consider each batch as a separate contract :-)01:29
srichterbecause I want to be paid more regularly too01:30
pcardunewell, one thing we are sure of, is the requirement namespace right?01:32
srichterthough the gradebook might not use that01:34
pcardunewell, i put the namespace stuff into the requirement package (and out of virginia)01:35
srichterthat was the right choice01:35
pcarduneand i get   ValueError: list.index(x): x not in list01:35
pcardunewith an interesting traceback01:35
th1aI'm going to get some feedback from partners before we make a decision about doing the CSV.01:37
srichterpcardune: do debug session at this point and look at the list01:37
srichterth1a: I'll note that noone at Tufts uses the Web UI; it's just too cumbersome01:38
srichterand much harder to keep your records in sync that way01:38
srichterbut ok, let me know what parts you want implemented01:39
th1aWell, let's see what people say.01:39
th1aSpreadsheets can be a pain with computer-illiterate teachers.01:40
th1aMore opportunity for them to rearrange things and screw them up.01:40
srichterHS might be different; and Physics students/profs are much more tech savvy too01:40
th1aAlso, High Tech High uses the PowerGrade client now, so perhaps we'd want to parse their files instead (although I suspect it would be a lot harder).01:41
th1aAnyhow, I'm going to send an email to the list for feedback, but I don't see any reason for you not to get started ASAP.01:43
srichterok, cool01:43
th1aYou can go talk to your wife ;-)01:44
srichterLOL, ok, will do :-)01:49
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povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 5574:03:10
povbot/svn/commits: Make sure the source is built before extracting translations.03:10
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povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 5575:03:44
povbot/svn/commits: Build the translation templates and update the translations before packing them up in the tarball.03:44
th1ajinty:  Should we do some kind of global find/replace on the copyright dates?03:46
jintyyou can if you like;)03:46
jintyfind -name *.py -exec sed -i 's/^# Copyright (c) 200? Shuttleworth Foundation$/# Copyright (c) 2006 Shuttleworth Foundation/' {} \;03:48
jintymight be a start03:49
jintyor rather '*.py'03:49
th1aWell, that didn't seem to do it.03:54
th1aNever mind, I guess.03:55
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povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 5576:04:03
povbot/svn/commits: Add dependencies for schooltool.help04:03
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 5577:04:04
povbot/svn/commits: Include the schooltool.commendation, and schooltool.requirement in the schooltool distro.04:04
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th1ajinty:  Did the PIL requirement make it into the current README?04:07
jintyhmm, dunno, having a look04:08
jintynope, doesn't appear to be there04:09
th1aDid you do the tarball yet?04:09
jintyno still doing dry runs.04:09
jintymaking lots of nightly tarballs04:10
th1aOK.  Let me add that.04:10
th1aDoes this readme follow some specific structure?  Some Debian rules?04:11
th1aActually, have you added PIL as a requirement to the Debian packaging?04:12
th1aIt is required now.04:12
jintyby the way, is 2006.0-alpha1 a good version number?04:13
jintyif the tests fail without PIL, my debian packages should fail to build;)04:13
th1aThat's as good as anything I've thought of.04:13
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th1aDoes this release require Zope 3.2?04:16
jintywell, it's included04:17
jintyso, I guess not04:17
th1aBut it is 3.2.04:17
jintybut it is not included in the -minimal tarball04:17
povbot/svn/commits: * hoffman committed revision 5578:04:25
povbot/svn/commits: Updating the main README.04:25
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 5579:04:31
povbot/svn/commits: Exclude the parts of zope that have lately snuck in through the back door.04:31
jintyth1a: the latest nightly tarball is what I will release, wanna do some paranoid checking?04:48
th1aOK.  What shall I do?04:49
th1aDownload it?04:49
jintyperhaps try to run it with an old Data.fs04:49
jintysomething from schooltool 0.11 with as much data as possible in it04:50
jintynote that the README says nothing about how to actually build/install one of these tarballs. Maybe now is the right time.04:51
th1aGood point.04:52
th1aWait, what do you mean?04:52
jintyabout the readme?04:53
th1aWhat doesn't it tell you?04:53
jintyit says absolutely nothing zip nada04:54
th1aIt tells you how to build and run SchoolTool.04:54
th1aWhat else do we need?04:54
jintyand the procedure is totally different in a tarball from a checkout thanks to zpkg04:54
jintytry it, you will see what I mean04:54
th1aI'm going to have to reboot in a minute.04:55
jintyok, I'm busy updating the readme (removing the section on distutils and such)04:56
th1aSo I'm downloading SchoolTool-SVN.tgz, right?04:57
jintywe are also going to have to figure out a way people can compile the .mo files easily from the tarball. (next release I think)04:58
th1aHey, this is different.04:59
jintythe first question people normally ask is "hey where is the code?" ;)05:00
th1amake test doesn't seem to work.05:01
th1aClearly someone other than me has to write this README.05:01
th1aRebooting this box...05:02
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jintyth1a: wanna try the one I just committed out?05:15
jintyREADME that is05:15
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 5580:05:15
povbot/svn/commits: Remove or modify sections that refer to the old tarball format, add a barebones explanation for the new one.05:15
* jinty goes to make a tea05:20
th1aOK, tests pass.05:30
jintythe tarball build actually runs all those tests, the interesting part is starting up with an old DB.05:31
th1aSeems to work with an old db.  But it was a mostly empty db, so that may not prove anything.05:33
th1aThis'll have the right version in the footer?05:34
jintyyeah, that's a part of the build process05:34
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 5581:05:36
povbot/svn/commits: remove the training wheels05:36
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 5582:05:36
povbot/svn/commits: Tagging 2006.0-alpha105:37
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 5583:05:47
povbot/svn/commits: Set version number as 2006.0-alpha105:47
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 5584:05:48
povbot/svn/commits: Squish some bugs05:48
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 5585:05:50
povbot/svn/commits: Correct url.05:50
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 5586:05:56
povbot/svn/commits: and destination path05:56
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 5587:06:02
povbot/svn/commits: better searching for versions.06:02
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 5588:06:06
povbot/svn/commits: I just want it to work now!!!!06:06
jintyth1a: thare ya go
th1aCool.  Thanks jinty!06:21
jintywe definitely need a standard release text...06:22
th1aFor an announcement?06:22
th1aI'll take care of it.06:23
jintythe announcement? great!06:23
jintyor the text?06:23
th1aEspecially since we need to emphatically stress that this is a development snapshot and not a production release.06:24
jintyfor sure, but we would very much welcome anyone testing it with a real life db06:24
* jinty goes back to drawing SQL database tables...06:26
th1aHave fun.06:27
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povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 5589:14:33
povbot/svn/commits: Minor docstring and whitespace cleanups.14:33
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povbot`/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5590:15:38
povbot`/svn/commits: Added highlighting of the current period in daily calendar view.15:38
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pcardunesrichter: I figured out the problem with the getting menus, but I don't know the solution16:47
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pcardunethe traverser returns the Requirement inside a LocationProxy, the menu items are successfully found, but when zope tries to put them in order of relevance, it looks up interfaces that LocationProxy provides, and not what Requirement provides16:52
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srichterpcardune: good work17:31
srichterpcardune: let's make sure requirements implement ILocation or even better IContained then ;-)17:31
pcardunethen presumably we wont need a locationproxy17:32
srichternot presumably, but absolutely :-)17:32
pcardunewell, i say presumably because i haven't tried it before :)17:33
srichterI see17:33
pcardunehow come BTreeContainer doesn't already implement ILocation?17:34
srichterbecause not every container must be locatable17:36
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pcardunesrichter: ayt?19:13
srichterwhat's up? :-)19:19
pcarduneI can't figure out how to properly implement IContained19:19
pcardunewhat i've done is add IContained to the list of implement interfaces19:20
srichterjust  have Requirement inherit Contained19:20
pcarduneI've done that as well19:20
srichterthat's it19:20
srichterok, then it should be ok19:20
srichterRequirements should never have a location proxy then19:20
srichter(note that you have to remove your ZODB to reset the data19:20
pcardunethanks for that note19:21
pcardunethat it probably my problem19:21
pcardunewill it automatically set __parent__ and __name__?19:21
pcarduneor do i have to specify that with the namespace adapter19:21
srichtermmh, you should set the parent when adding it to the annotation19:22
srichterlet me check how we are doing this19:23
srichterok, here is the drill19:24
srichtersee getRequirement()?19:24
pcarduneyeah, set __parent__ there19:25
pcarduneequal to context19:25
srichterand the name should be '++requirement++'19:25
srichterthis way when you ask for an absolute URL you get the right one19:25
pcarduneshould i use the contained() method so that it sends out proper events?19:26
pcardunesomething that you guys should do is change the login redirect stuff to handle pluses and at symbols instead of changing them to %2019:28
pcardunewell... that works!19:28
* mgedmin wishes your nicknames weren't of the same length and both green in xchat19:32
srichterpcardune: cool19:34
srichterI think your browser is changing this automatically :-(19:34
*** erchache has joined #schooltool20:11 are a big shit!20:11 trying to add my comments to my issues but i cant....i need to send it on plain text exclusively.....i need to reconfigure my thunderbird mail client20:12
erchachewhen trac are on production?20:16
erchacheissues is a shit20:16
erchacheis frustrating to use a platform on this conditions.... :-@20:17
th1aWe'll move to Malone before we move to Trac.20:17
th1aCan't you just enter a comment at
pcardunecan you enter comments without having a login?20:18
erchacheim using a webmail client20:18
erchachea second20:18
erchachewell i send with my webmail going to see if tracker are get it ok20:20
erchacheuhmm....late response....looks good :-P20:21
erchacheth1a: im translating your little howtos into on 50% of translation...when are finished i send to you20:21
erchachei want to make with a server. How i can do it officially?20:22
erchachehehehe from webmail client track runs....but from thunderbird need to be send on plain text mode20:25
th1aWhat do you want to do?20:25
erchacheadd comments to my opened issues20:25
erchacheif you send it on html mode...mail gateway of tracker fails20:25
th1aNo, with
erchacheyou need to send on plain text only20:26
erchachehehehe....excuse me20:26
erchacheim very very very crazy now....a lot of work :-^P20:26
erchacheth1a: translate web into spanish to get more users....because we have our own linux distro20:27
erchacheand can use schooltool/schoolbell on my country20:27
erchacheguadalinex linux distro20:27
th1aWe should do that within Plone.20:28
erchachewe have 50000 potential users only on high schools20:28
erchachewell but on your server....on my
erchacheplone has a internationalization of contents plugin or similar?20:28
th1aThat is a good question.20:28
th1aI guess I need to find out.20:29
erchachei can looking for it....20:29
erchachein extreme....i can up a plone server and redirect to url no?20:29
erchacheor looking for a plone plugin to use schooltool plone server20:30
erchacheyou know?20:30
th1aWe get lots of hits from Madrid, Barcelona and Sevilla.20:30
th1aHopefully we don't have to do that.20:30
erchachei speak about your software to my boss....and my boss to others ;-)20:30
th1aBeijing is our biggest source of hits.  I guess it is also the biggest city in the world?20:33
th1aThen London, Paris, Cape Town.20:33
erchacheperhaps is a spam spider20:35
th1aThis is from Google Analytics, which I imagine is pretty good at filtering out spam.  I assume their using the same algorithms they use for filtering out false clicks on their ads.20:36
erchacheey....i have solution....20:37
erchachewith this you can make different language pages of same content... :-D20:38
erchacheinstall linguaplone on schooltool plone site20:38
th1aThat looks like the right thing.20:39
erchache LinguaPlone was made by Plone Solutions AS with contributors. Development has been funded by20:40
erchache    * Oxfam international20:41
erchache    * Centre for New European Research, Hitotsubashi University, Tokyo20:41
erchache    * Zope Japan Corporation20:41
erchache    * Plone Solutions AS20:41
erchacheif plone admin do that for oxfam.....must be a cool plugin :-D20:41
th1aI'll give it a shot.20:41
erchacheth1a: other question....i generate a correct .ics with open with ical....but ical on my pb cant open it...why?20:41
th1aWhat happens?20:42
erchachei push open with ical.....i get a .ics file....i open with vi and looks "good" but when try to open with ical....doesnt show on calendar :-S20:44
erchachei make a issue...perhaps data format are wrong20:44
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th1aerchache:  We just need more detail on precisely what happens.20:46
erchacheuhmm....i make a calendar.ics with schooltool/schoolbell ok?20:47
erchachewhen try to open with ical...nothing appears on screen...20:47
erchacheperhaps because only daily view runs?20:47
erchacheor what?20:47
th1aWhen you click on "open in ical" nothing happens?20:48
th1aI have to go eat my lunch.  It is beeping at me.20:49
erchachei asociate .ics to ical with firefox20:49
erchacheand ical doesnt show nothing20:49
erchachebut .ics has data20:49
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erchachebye....tomorrow more!20:59
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povbot`/svn/commits: * pcardune committed revision 5591:21:10
povbot`/svn/commits: Finally got the requirement namespace traverser to work.  I also adjusted the view to allow for customized sub requirement tree node views, presumably for subclasses of Requirement21:10
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srichterpcardune: hey Paul23:44
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pcardunehey srichter23:46
pcardunei set up some views for managing bases23:47
pcardunebut things stop working correctly with the wrapped requirements23:47
srichterI am writing some sci-fi for the gradebook23:47
srichterand I noticed some hickups23:47
pcardunewhat did you encounter?23:48
srichterfirst of all, I think you were initially right to move the ++requirement++ namespace into CAnDo23:48
srichterI cannot reuse this for the gradebook23:48
srichterideally we would want the CanDo requirements and gradebook requirements to be treated the same23:48
srichterbut this is not practical23:48
srichterif I have a classical gradebook, I usually do not care about other requirements in this moment23:49
srichterwhat we really want (at least optional and for now) is that the Cando Requirement structure and the gradebook are in parallel23:50
srichternot together23:50
srichterthe other problem is with the score system (this might be a non-issue)23:51
pcarduneso what we want are two different namespace names, ++competencies++ and ++assignments++23:51
srichterI have noticed that I always want to associate a score system with my activity (dervide from requirement)23:51
srichterso why did we not associate scoresystems with requirements? :-)23:52
srichterand I might decide to not even implement it as a namespace23:52
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srichter(you'll notice that the adapter we wrote is not sensible anymore either)23:52
pcardunewhich adapter? for IRequirement?23:53
srichteryeah, IHaveRequirement -> IRequirement23:53
srichterwell, I guess it is okay, if a third party wants to use the package independently23:54
srichterbut for our case we really want to subclass all this; you for compotencies and me for activities23:54
srichteravtity is the new term for assignment23:54
pcarduneso then even the adapter will be seperate23:55
pcardunethat is pretty obvious now23:55
srichterwell, we had to gain some experience first23:56
srichterso it is really not a big deal23:56
srichterpcardune: what are your comments to the score system thing?23:56
pcardunewell of course not, it will be really easy to make it cando or schooltool specific23:56
pcardunewell, what happens when you want to use a two different score systems for the same requirement23:57
pcarduneI admit that would be rare23:58
srichterok, if you have that as a use case, I am fine23:58
srichterI'll just never have this case with activities23:58
srichterI guess it is more obvious why you need the flexibility with competencies23:59
pcardunewell here is a possibility23:59
srichterstates might agree on a seert of competencies, but want to score them differently23:59
pcardunewhat happens when you have a school mandated activity, but a particular teacher want's to use their own score system for it23:59
srichterthat type of scenario will never occur for activities23:59

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