IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2006-01-10

th1asrichter:  I think we need to loop over list(section.members) perhaps instead of just section.members00:10
srichterthat would make no sense00:21
th1aI know.. I'm grasping at straws here.00:22
srichterdid you change the code back to the way we had it when we ran the test?00:23
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5568:00:34
povbot/svn/commits: Implemented context-sensitive help. Provided one help screen for person containers. It is simple and thus really easy to use. So now someone just has to write the help screens. :-)00:35
th1aI didn't chnge the code back.01:10
th1asrichter:  What's that line of code you were using to kick Zope to the debugger?01:26
pcarduneth1a: you wouldn't happen to know where the attribute "contentName" is defined for all the objects that use
th1a'fraid not.01:31
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povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5569:06:21
povbot/svn/commits: Implemented Tom's final suggestions.06:21
srichterth1a: are you there?06:23
srichterok, I am about to write up the next stories06:24
srichteryou basically want me to implement the grade book right?06:24
th1aI should go over the documentation one more time.06:24
srichtercan you give me the basic requirements?06:25
th1aWhere do I find out how to write online help files?  The README I presume?06:25
th1aOk, bear in mind this is the first iteration, so we're not trying to accomplish everything at once.06:25
srichterthere is an example in st.person.browser/configure.zcml06:25
srichterthat's why I am asking06:25
srichterI guess I pan to do a gradebook a la Blackboard06:27
th1aHm... you can't actually view Quicktimes, can you?06:27
srichterthough I have crossover office, which might work06:28
th1aJust for yahoos, see if any of the examples here will run:
th1aAny luck?06:32
srichterit worked in kaffeine, but pic is not right06:32
srichterI am trying quicktime06:33
th1aWell, it isn't a big deal.06:35
th1aAnyhow, I've never actually used an online gradebook, so you have a better idea of the basic features than I do.06:35
srichterok, I'll write something up06:36
th1aIf they had PowerSchool videos too, I might shell out the $80, but they don't.06:36
srichterare we still meeting on Thursday?06:36
th1aAh, yes.  Mako's meeting is in the evening.  6:00, so we can meet late morning - afternoon if it is ok with you.06:36
srichteryep, sure06:37
th1aSo it turns out that there is something weird about expanded calendars.06:37
th1aI had to do "events = list(calendar.expand(first, last))"06:37
th1aTo get the data generation to work.06:38
th1aIt would loop through the events for the first student, and then it would show 0 events for the rest of them.06:38
th1aUntil I make events a list.06:38
srichtermmh, probably the iterator is not correctly implemented06:39
th1aI can't get the workflow set up right for the test.06:40
th1aDo you think I should just make it a functional test?06:40
srichterwell, that's what I would do ;-)06:43
th1aShould I make an ftest directory?06:44
th1aI'm never sure where to put these things and point the test runner at them.06:44
srichteractually an ftest is no good, since it would test the complete generation06:45
th1aOh, blast.06:45
th1aI knew there would be some problem.06:45
srichteryeah, setting up workflows is pretty complex, though it is probably done somewhere already06:46
th1aThey use some stubs, which I can't use.06:47
th1aBut yeah, I can pull it together.06:47
th1aIt is just an immense amount of setup :-(06:48
th1aAlso, now that we're producing the full amount of data, it swamped my computer :-(06:48
srichterI think you do not need to setup everything, only the workflow utility06:48
srichterhe he06:48
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th1a|inux    ComponentLookupError: (Activity(u'explanation.explain'), <InterfaceClass zope.wfmc.interfaces.IParticipant>, u'.attendanceAdmin')06:50
th1aThat's what I'm getting now.06:50
th1aSo it looks like I have to do the whole nine yards.06:51
srichteryeah, you have to setup the participant for the activity06:52
srichterI wonder whether you should just execute the ZCML file06:52
th1aCan I?06:52
th1aWill mgedmin scold me ;-)06:52
srichterprobably ;-) (he he)06:53
th1aWhat would I have to do?06:53
srichterbasically do:06:55
srichterfrom zope.configuration import xmlconfig06:55
srichterxmlconfig.file('.../configure.zcml', package=...)06:55
th1aDid you test your help window popup on Mozilla?06:56
th1aIt isn't working right for me.06:56
th1a|inuxMy main window goes blank, with this in the URL slot:'http://localhost:7080/persons/@@index.html/++help++/@@contexthelp.html','Context Help','height=400                                ,width=600                                ,resizable=1                                ,scrollbars=yes                                ,location=no                                ,status=no06:58
th1a|inux     ,toolbar=no                                ,menubar=no')06:58
srichterisn't the oldest JS API06:58
th1aDon't ask me.06:58
th1akonqueror is very blue.06:59
th1aJust the default welcome screen is jarring with all the Ubuntu human brown.07:00
srichterbtw, the code works in my firefox07:04
th1aIt does the same thing in both of mine.07:05
th1aWorks in Safari.07:05
srichteroh, you mean that it also opens a blank screen07:06
srichterbesides the real window07:06
th1aI thought the main screen was going blank.07:07
srichterI saw that too07:07
th1aThat's a bug.07:07
srichterI am trying onClick07:07
srichterwell, it's really a FF bug07:07
th1aSo when I load that ZCML file, what do the package and context arguments mean?07:16
srichterignore context07:18
srichterpackage is the package the ZCML file is in07:18
th1aSo "attendance"07:18
th1aDo I need to use os.path to open the file correctly cross-platform?07:19
srichterno, I think the relative path should be fine07:21
srichterso just enter 'configure.zcml'07:21
th1a../configure.zcml right?07:21
srichterno, just configure.zcml07:22
srichterbecause it is relative to the package you specify07:22
th1aHm.  OK.07:22
th1aThis is making me feel retarded.07:29
th1a|inux    ZopeXMLConfigurationError: File "/home/hoffman/Desktop/schooltool/src/schooltool/attendance/configure.zcml", line 6.207:29
th1a|inux        ConfigurationError: ('Unknown directive', u'', u'class')07:29
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th1aI'm doing "import schooltool.attendance" and "xmlconfig.file('configure.zcml', package=schooltool.attendance)07:32
th1asrichter:  Any thoughts before I give up and take a bubble bath?07:41
jintyhi th1a, I saw that we are on for a snapshot tomorrow07:42
th1aAh, ready as we'll ever be.07:42
jintyok, then, tomorrow night, when I wake up again07:42
srichterth1athat's right07:43
jintybtw, i'm also stealing your jumpto portlet07:43
th1aTomorrow night whose time?07:43
th1aWhich night?07:43
th1aIs it morning?07:43
jintymy time, in about 16 hours07:44
th1aThat sounds perfect.07:44
th1aThanks jinty.07:44
jintywell, it'll be both day and night for me;) seems I am nocturnal now07:44
jintyoops! just looked at the logs, schooltool nightly tarball failed07:45
jintysrichter: waa!07:45
jintyfailed in: schooltool/app/browser/ftests/help.txt07:46
srichterwhat failed?07:46
srichterit passed for me07:46
srichteroh, you know what?07:46
jintyERROR: File07:46
jinty+"/home/jinty/releases/schooltool/tst/lib/python/schooltool/app/browser/ftests/h+elp.txt", line 28, in help.txt07:46
jintyERROR: Failed example:07:46
jintyERROR: 'Context Help' in manager.contents07:46
jintyERROR: Differences (ndiff with -expected +actual):07:46
srichterI forgot to add the dependency
jintyERROR: - True07:46
jintyERROR: + False07:46
jintyis in 3.2?07:47
srichterof course07:47
srichterit is there forever07:48
srichterit is required for the full onlinehelp07:48
jintysorry, never noticed;)07:48
srichterand apidoc of course07:48
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povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5570:08:26
povbot/svn/commits: Improved help screen for Mozilla. Made the HTML more simple using tables.  I jsut hate, hate div's + CSS 2.08:26
srichterth1a: did you start on the gradebook already?08:52
th1asrichter:  Not beyond some planning.09:06
th1aI put my ideas into that presentation I've been working on.09:07
srichteryeah, except that this is pretty advanced09:24
srichterfor now I am sticking to very simple garding items and grades09:24
srichterth1a: so grade items can be added to sections only?09:35
srichteror should we be able to add grading items to courses as well?09:36
th1aYou would only grade a section.09:42
th1aBut a section requirement is a sub-class of the course requirement.09:43
srichterok, that's what I thought09:45
srichterth1a: the gradebook will not have to handle trimesters, etc. right?09:48
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povbot/svn/commits: * vidas committed revision 5571:12:40
povbot/svn/commits: Excluded current day from the real time attendance sparkline.12:40
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srichterwhat's Tom's site for creating user stories?15:24
srichterok, found it15:25
srichterwould have never guessed that though15:25
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erchacheim making using schoolbell on spanish17:29
pcardunesrichter: I'm having trouble using the CookieTreeView, it wants all nodes to be adaptable to IUniqueID, but only non persistent objects can be adapted17:46
pcardunehow should I get around this?  or am i totally lost?17:47
srichtermmh, that seems strange17:53
srichterall IContained or ILocation objects should be working17:53
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erchachehi again!19:40
erchachei put view permission to my calendar and doesnt run with unautheticated users...why?19:44
erchachepermission control are stable?19:44
erchacheth1a|linux: ey....with openoffice and gimp are very easy to make manuals....19:51
povbot/svn/commits: * pcardune committed revision 5572:20:09
povbot/svn/commits: Initial addition of requirement browser views.  This includes views for adding, editing, and looking at requirements trees structures.20:09
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povbot/svn/commits: * pcardune committed revision 5573:20:40
povbot/svn/commits: made the few changes mgedmin suggested20:40
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* mgedmin waves back at povbot20:46
* srichter remembers that he set his client to ignore povbot <grin>20:47
mgedminpovbot mentioned my name20:48
povbotmgedmin: Error: "mentioned" is not a valid command.20:48
pcarduneha ha20:49
mgedminI suddenly understand why you ignored it20:49
mgedminmy irc nickname differs from my user account name20:49
mgedminso my irc client doesn't ring a bell for each of my commits20:49
srichtermgedmin: well, I am also reading the commits via the MAiling List anyways, briefly looking through the code, so that I really do not need the notifications20:52
srichtermgedmin: do you know where Tom is?20:53
srichtermgedmin: what score system do you use in Lithuania?20:57
srichterA, B, C, D, F?20:57
srichter1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6?20:57
srichter5, 4, 3, 2, 1?20:57
mgedmin1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 1020:58
mgedmin2 and 3 are almost never used20:58
mgedmin1 usually means you gave in a blank test paper20:58
mgedminthings like that20:58
srichterso 10 is the best?20:58
pcardunesweet... you get one whole point for nothing20:59
mgedminwell, it drags your average score down20:59
mgedmin5 is the lowest passing grade20:59
mgedminor is it 420:59
mgedminor 6?20:59
mgedmin4 is the lowest passing grade in schools; 5 is the lowest passing grade in universities20:59
mgedmin(says ignas, who is sitting next to me)21:00
srichterok :-)21:00
mgedminalso, in universities you sometimes get subjects that are not graded21:00
mgedminand you either pass (─»skaityta) or fail (ne─»skaityta)21:00
srichterright, you have those here too21:00
srichterthose are pass/fail courses21:00
srichterstudents can also choose to take a class pass/fail21:01
srichtermgedmin: but you cannot get a 7.8 for example, right?21:01
srichtermeaning those grades are true integers21:01
srichterok, makes sense21:02
mgedminsometimes you get a 7-, indicating that you barely qualified for a 721:02
mgedminbut for all intents and purposes it is a 721:02
srichterI see21:03
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srichterthere he is21:03
srichterI am done writing up the gradebook stories21:03
th1aMy Mac client dies periodically, and I forget to restart it.21:04
srichterI am only not sure how you want to handle extra credit.21:04
srichterwell, should EC scores be separate grading items?21:04
th1aHow else would you do it?21:04
srichtermathematically they are tricky too ;-)21:04
th1aYou mean extra credit not directly attached to an assignment?21:05
srichterwell, whenever I give extra credit I add it to the score of the relevant assignment21:05
srichterwell, I do not have those cases in my classes, but I imagine others do?21:05
srichterok, so I add this to the story21:06
th1aDoes this affect the underlying design, or is it just something we have to figure out eventually?21:06
srichterhow to count them mathematically is very difficult too21:06
srichtersomething that we have to figure out eventually21:06
th1aOK, I say punt for now.21:07
srichterit would simply be an additional flag, nothing serious21:07
th1aThis is the kind of thing where having partner schools helps limit the possibilities.21:07
srichterth1a: and we are on for Thursday, right?21:08
th1aI'm just off to a slow start today for various reasons.21:08
srichterlate night?21:08
srichter(I only slep 2.5 hours last night ;-( )21:08
th1aNot more of a late night than usual.21:09
srichterth1a: ok, I am gonna send you the first draft of the proposal.21:18
th1aOK.  Thanks.21:19
srichterok, I have to have a nap, so talk to you later21:33
th1asrichter:  ttyl.21:33
* mgedmin sees tty121:34
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jelknersorry i'm late23:04
jelknerpcardune: how are we doing?23:04
jelkneranybody here?23:05
jelkneri notice dave isn't here today23:05
pcarduneI was just starting the schooltool server and my computer needs more memory23:05
pcarduneat least not yet23:05
jelkneri only have one topic for today...23:06
jelknernamely: what is the time line for having an installable version of cando 2006?23:06
pcardunewe've been saying april23:07
jelknerbecause until i have something to look at, i can't really contribute much more23:07
jelknerso do we even need to meet weekly at this stage?23:07
pcarduneoh well, you can do svn checkouts hourly!23:07
jelknerdo they run?23:08
jelknerthat's a different story then23:08
jelknersince my role is as customer, i need to begin testing releases whenever you tell me they are ready23:09
pcardunewell, i think you should (as customer) look at doctests23:09
jelknerif i started using the svn version now, would i and a few brave student testers be able to use the system?23:09
pcarduneno, at this point there isn't anything new to use from an enduser point of view23:09
pcarduneyou could use it if you and the students testers were at a python prompt :)23:10
pcardunebut I don't think that's what you mean23:10
pcardunei only just began implementing new browser views23:11
jelknerlet me put it this way:  what (if anything) do you need from me now?23:11
pcardunei believe if you do a checkout now, you will see a Virginia Competencies link, that takes you into the requirement browser views which I wrote yesterday23:12
pcarduneI could use some specific user stories oriented towards the user interface23:12
pcardunenow, with the power of viewlets, we can super integrate cando into schooltool.  It would be handy to know if you have any specific requests regarding that23:12
jelknermy first user story is that i want students to be able to create portfolios23:13
pcardunealready in the plans is for a person's page (when you click on your name in the top right) to show a list of competencies with grades etc.23:13
pcarduneI guess what I really want from you are functional tests23:14
jelkneri don't know how to create them?23:14
jelknercould you give me an example of one?23:15
pcardunethey are *very* easy to create.  except for a tiny bit of overhead, they are just a bunch of function calls that interact with a fake browser23:15
jelknerso my homework is to look this page over until i understand what is going on23:18
pcarduneor if you want to see one made by srichter, who writes better doctests than i do, check out
jelknerand to ask mitchell any questions i have ;-)23:19
ffsnoopyhaha, ill try23:19
jelknerok, i have a few practical questions, and then we can call this meeting to a close...23:19
pcardunethis is especially good because srichter has been working on a tutorial system that reads the doctests and executes them right in front of you, in a real browser23:19
jelkner1. i have a machine ( which is setup for running yorktown's cando instance23:20
jelkneri only have one student who is really doing anything with it at the moment, since i want to use cando for student portfolios, and i'm waiting for the new version to test that23:21
jelknerooops, too many words, where is the question?23:21
jelknershould i dist-upgrade to dapper?23:21
jelkner(there's the question! ;-)23:21
jelknerdapper is the next ubuntu release23:22
jelknerit comes out in april23:22
jelknerbut i could run it now23:22
pcarduneok, that's what i thought... go right ahead23:22
jelknersince that is the release on which schooltool 2006 will run23:22
jelknerthat way we can be testing on our target platform23:22
ffsnoopyis it stable enough?23:23
jelknerit runs fine23:23
jelknerbut things break now and then, of course23:23
jelknerbut thats the point of a development release23:23
pcardunewell, as long as python is the same, and zope doesn't have any problems related to C code or something, it should work exactly the same23:23
jelknerhere's the thing23:24
jelknerwe want to get cando into the schooltool release that will come with dapper23:24
jelkner(thla: is that correct?)23:24
jelkneri'm still not sure how all this works23:25
pcardunewhy though?23:25
pcardunethe only reason i can imagine is publicity23:25
jelknerno, that's not the reason23:25
jelknerthe reason is simplicity23:25
pcardunefor who?  the enduser would only need to do another apt-get install cando23:25
jelkner'apt-get install cando' is all you need23:26
jelknerfor the users23:26
jelknernot if we don't get it into the repository23:26
jelknerright now we are using a special little repository that jinty created for us23:26
jelkneronce we have things in the main repository, 'apt-get install cando' will work for all ubuntu users23:27
jelknerjust like 'apt-get install schooltool' already does23:27
pcardunecan't it be added to the repository after dapper is released?23:27
jelknernot until the next release23:28
jelknerwhich comes out in october23:28
jelknerand we may really be looking at dapper+123:28
jelkneri haven't figured all that out yet23:28
jelknerwe need to talk to tom (who seems not to be present) and jinty about this23:29
pcarduneso the main issue is that we don't have the connections/resources to get it into dapper,23:29
jelknerlet's back up a minute23:30
jelknerwe have another issue23:30
jelkner"cando" can not be trade marked (dave and i already checked on this)23:30
jelknerso we are going to need to rename it23:30
pcarduneoh boy23:30
jelknercando was a good name23:31
jelknerbut we weren't the first to use it :-(23:31
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ffsnoopyi noticed that too23:31
jelknermy question is this: do we need a name at all?23:31
ffsnoopywhats the fun if it doesnt have one?23:32
jelknerit does have a name, schooltool23:32
jelknerwhich is already trademarked23:32
pcarduneright... but... this is not schooltool23:32
pcarduneit is a schooltool *addon*23:32
ffsnoopyif you want to throw out some creativity, then thats fine keeping it schooltool23:32
ffsnoopybut im with paul on this one23:32
pcardunenot all schools will want this functionality23:33
jelknerbut most will23:33
jelknerand it is being written as a variation on the gradebook, yes?23:33
jelknerso really, it is schooltool competency tracking23:34
jelknerjust like we have a schooltool grade book23:34
ffsnoopywould it be infringement if we kept cando, but not trademarked?23:34
jelknerwe need to ask tom23:34
jelknerif cando is the name of our addon to schooltool, maybe we can23:35
pcardunebut "competency tracking" is very open ended... schooltool with *virginia* competency tracking makes more sense, and only virginia schools want that23:35
jelknernot at all23:36
jelknerOSHA wants competency tracking23:36
pcardunebasically, if we make the competency tracking package/framework general enough to be for a wider audience, then it wont have the things virginia needs23:36
pcardunefor example, only in virginia do they care about flagging a competency as "sensitive"23:37
pcarduneright now, that's hard coded, you can't get cando, without a "sensitive" flag23:37
pcarduneI mean, I like your idea, it just means that someone is going to have to flesh out what competency tracking is very carefully23:38
pcarduneso that it works for everybody23:38
jelknerwe did that last week23:38
jelknermy contention is that we can't make it work for "everybody"23:38
jelknerwe can only make it work for our customers23:38
ffsnoopyyou dont want to think too much about generalities23:39
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ffsnoopyso yes, it should be specific23:39
jelknerthe whole xp philosophy is that we will get the best software by taking care of our customers real needs23:39
jelknermy needs are general enough already23:39
jelknerso that whatever we come up with can be modified later to meet specific needs of other customers23:40
pcarduneyour needs are fine, the portfolio can have it's own package within schooltool, that's something I could see everyone wanting23:40
jelkner(particularly those willing to pay ;-)23:40
pcarduneI think the main problem is the customer, if the customer is one person, who is relatively flexible on the way they do things, it will work23:41
jelknerthe customers at present are:23:41
jelkner1. dave welsh23:41
jelkner(and all those he represents)23:41
jelkner2. me23:41
pcardunebut if it is a huge bureacracy, we can't say, "competency ids are too arbitrary to be useful, so you will have to live without them"23:41
jelkner3. tom hoffman (since it needs to work with the gradebook)23:41
jelkneryou shouldn't need to make the customer live without anything the want if they are willing to spend the needed resources to get it23:42
jelkneri don't understand23:42
jelknerth1a: tom, are you here?23:43
pcardunewell, you know that record sheet that the state of virginia wants teachers to keep23:43
pcarduneSCR i think we called it23:43
jelknerthe scr23:43
jelknerstudent competency record23:44
jelkneryes, what about it?23:44
pcardunewell what happens when each enduser has a different format for their SCR that includes different kinds of data23:44
jelknerok, i'm glad you brought that up23:44
jelknerthe xp philosophy says, no big design up front23:45
jelknerinstead we get real software meeting real needs at every step of the process23:45
jelknerwe might not have a situation like you describe until schooltool 200823:45
jelkneror whenever23:46
jelknerin the mean time you solve the problems of the customer you have23:46
jelknerand you do the simplest thing that works23:46
jelknerlater you may decide: now we have 4 customers with 4 different reporting forms23:46
pcardunewell, I guess it's really up to you and tom to decide23:47
jelknerit now makes sense to make reporting forms plug in modules23:47
jelknerbut at this point we don't need the extra weight of plug-in modules for forms23:47
jelknersince we only have one form23:47
jelknerkeep things as simple as possible23:48
jelkner(but no simpler ;-)23:48
jelknerthis is a huge project23:48
jelknerit will be in development for years23:48
jelknerthat's why i am so concerned about good practices23:48
pcardunethe thing is, schooltool, right now, is in the phase of "gosh, we really need plugins for this"23:49
jelknerfine, then the customer for that is tom23:49
pcarduneok then23:49
jelknerso you get user stories from him on that23:49
jelknerit is his story23:50
jelkneri wish he was here for this23:50
pcarduneok, that's fine i guess23:50
jelkneryou sound unconvinced23:50
jelkner(the "i guess" gives it away ;-)23:51
pcardunewell, it's just in that the way I have been doing things has been in a really specific manner23:51
pcardunelike, in cando, the new package that uses the requirement framework is called "virginia"23:51
pcarduneand the subclass of Requirement is called VirginiaCompetency23:52
jelknerthat sounds good23:52
pcarduneI did that, in the code, to make the distinction that these data types were specific to the way virginia deals with competencies23:52
jelknerfine, they are at present23:52
jelknerso what's the problem?23:53
pcarduneworking with stephan, i learned that it is very important for class attributes to be representative of the attributes universally used for that object23:54
jelknerfor polymorphism's sake, yes?23:54
pcardunefor example, its bad to have a bunch of keyword arguments in a constructor since they are not required.  keywords should more often than not be annotations and have nothing to do with the main component23:55
*** jinty has joined #schooltool23:56
jelknerhi jinty!23:56
pcardunewhat you've been saying makes me think I should scrap the virginia module, and just right views for adding annotations to the Requirement object23:56
jelknerlet me ask you this: why did you decide on a virginia module?23:57
jelknerdoes it make it easier for you to impliment the user stories you are working on?23:57
pcardunebecause I thought it was a very specific and concrete form of the requirement framework23:58
jelknerwill using it make it easier for you to get me running code?23:58
jelknerif the answer is yes, then keep it for now23:58
jelkneri'll look into the functional tests during the week23:59
pcardunewell, i'll think about it23:59
jintyhey jelkner23:59
pcarduneimplementation that is23:59
jelknerhey jinty!23:59

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