IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2005-11-22

povbot`/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5334:01:48
povbot`/svn/commits: Initial attempt for a requirement framework01:48
povbot`/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5335:01:52
povbot`/svn/commits: We do not want this file anymore.01:52
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jelknerpaul, stephan, how is it going?23:06
jelkner(and i didn't mean to leave you out, mr. hoffman ;-)23:06
pcardunehey elkner23:06
srichterits going well23:06
srichterdid you not see our checkins?23:07
jelknerno, but i take it you've been busy23:07
pcardunethat would be a good assumption23:08
jelkneroh, do you mean email checkins? yes, i did see those23:08
jelknersounds very exciting23:08
jelknerthe idea that cando and the gradebook can share code23:09
srichteroh, so I guess you are not seeing cando checkins23:09
srichterwe have restructured the package quite a bit23:09
srichteryou can now use zpkgtools to create packages23:09
jelknerpaul is going to start teaching me about cando/schooltool starting next week23:10
srichteralso, you are not using a SchoolTool fork anymore23:10
srichterand we are fixing ST right now to overcome the previous limitations23:10
jelknerpaul, i have two questions:23:11
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pcardunehi dave23:11
dwelshwelsh here23:11
jelknerhey dave23:11
pcardunewhat are the two questions23:11
dwelshhappy tgiving to all23:11
jelknerdwelsh: why don't we start with any questions / concerns you have23:12
jelknerand i'll take it from there23:12
dwelshPaul, I did send a couple of issues that emerged this past week.23:12
dwelshDid you see them?23:12
dwelshProblem with update links23:12
dwelshProblem with mouse over23:13
dwelshcc'd elkner23:13
jelknerpaul wrote back about that23:13
dwelshok, haven't seen it yet.23:13
pcarduneit's fairly lengthly23:14
dwelshwhen did you send it?23:14
dwelshhmmmmmm.  didn't come thru23:14
pcardunei'll send it again23:14
dwelshgreat.  did you send it from your gmail23:14
pcarduneyeah, i sent it to your gmail account23:15
dwelshsend also to David_Welsh@apsva.us23:15
jelkneri didn't even know welsh had a gmail account23:15
dwelshbut did Paul send it from his gmail acct.23:16
jelkneryeah, i saw that yesterday, and added it to my address book23:16
dwelshwhat was the upshot of the email23:16
pcardunei just resent it from my gmail account to your aps account23:16
dwelshgot it.23:16
jelknerok, while dave reads that, let me ask a question23:17
jelknerpcardune: when and how can we get mitchell integrated into this project?23:17
jelknerhe is chomping at the bit to join in, and i keep telling him to wait23:18
jelknerthat is generally not a good thing23:18
dwelshgotcha... no apostraphes23:18
pcardunewell, he can start now i suppose23:18
jelknercould you please email him and get him going?23:18
dwelshif you could look up update links... something not right htere23:19
pcarduneat very least he can get to know the code, and I will provide any help he needs in understanding that.23:19
pcardunesure, I can email him about that23:19
jelknerthe best thing is to give him something useful to do that will get him going23:19
pcardunedwelsh, that is an odd problem.  With the new architecture me and stephan came up yesterday, there wont even be an update links23:20
dwelshI have two questions about architecture...23:20
dwelsh1) how do you know if your architecture is good, other than walking down that path?23:20
dwelsh2) how long will it take to implement new architecture... is at a redo from ground up, or additions to what we have23:20
pcardunejelkner, yeah, I am trying to think of something that is small enough, and can be decoupled from the rest of cando23:20
dwelshget rid of update links, definitely a good thing23:21
jelknerpcardune: talk to stephan about that, and then send him the email as soon as you can (today or tomorrow would be *great* ;-)23:21
pcarduneI know the architecture is good because both stephan and tom agreed that is was good.23:21
jelknerahh peer review!23:22
dwelshso you guys putting your heads together reached consensus of the way you should go?23:22
srichterwell, we know the architecture is at least sufficient, sicne it covers all your current use cases23:22
dwelshThen what about time to implement... are we into rewriting, or adding to?23:23
pcardunea little bit of both23:23
srichteralso, Tom has implemented this problem domain before, so he was knowledgable23:23
srichterand all his previous use cases were covered as well23:23
jelkneryes, i have a question about how this relates to cando 2005 vs. cando 200623:23
dwelshdid you guys talk a timeline for implementing new architecture?23:24
jelknerwe need to keep the current version running for this year23:24
dwelshright... and keep fixing the bugs as they arise23:24
jelknerwhile we begin banging away on the new version23:24
jelknerso how do you see both of those things happening?23:24
th1aHi guys.23:25
jelknerth1a: hi tom23:25
dwelshhappy tgiving, tom23:25
th1aI think that we're going to be able to share enough code that the necessary re-architecting load won't be too bad.23:25
th1aSince we'll have CanDo and SchoolTool contributions.23:25
dwelshthat's hopeful23:26
pcardunethe bugs for the 2005 release I can fix... as soon as we get functional tests working in that branch (since it's not built into zope3.1)  we will do that tomorrow23:26
jelknerpcardune: but keep in mind paul, that you still need to fix dave's bugs in the *current* version23:26
dwelshI'm assuming we're talking about getting to work on ST/CD 2006, as we support 200523:26
jelknerso saying "that problem will go away in the new version" doesn't help for this year23:26
jelknerdwelsh: exactly23:27
pcarduneyeah, that's what I'm talking about.  I will fix the problem in the current version, i just wasn't able to in the last week because ftests weren't working.  Me and srichter will fix that tommorow23:27
dwelshI'm removing apostrophes as we speak...23:28
jelknermitchell will join in on the new version23:28
jelknerand i will be willing to test the new version as soon as you say i can23:29
jelkneri've got a small class at hb (4 brave students) who are excited about being Guinea pigs23:29
dwelshwho/how many will be working on school tool 2006?23:30
pcarduneso far, me and mitchell23:30
srichterat least they will learn early in their lives that being rat labs sucks! :-)23:30
jelkneryou mean cando, dave is asking about schooltool23:30
dwelshI mean School Tool, not CanDo23:30
pcarduneoh oops23:31
jelknerth1a: tom?23:31
th1aPOV, Stephan, me and someone else.23:31
dwelshSo four people?23:31
th1aPOV is four people, but probably half time.23:32
dwelshSo seven folks?23:32
dwelshfour of them half-time23:32
th1aProbably one more person.23:32
th1aWorking out an actual budget now.23:33
dwelshWill CanDo development happen in parallel, or does ST 2006 have to get to a certain point?23:33
jelkneris it correct to say that paul will also be working on schooltool?23:34
jelknerthat is what i understood your email yesterday to say23:34
dwelshIt's more correct to say that Paul ALSO will be... (don't split the infinitive)23:34
pcardunewell, that's assuming they let me have access to some small part of schooltool's repo (which is up to tom)23:35
jelknermy understanding is that cando and the new gradebook will share code, and that paul will be working on that with tom23:36
jelknerwhile we wait for tom to chime in, let's move on...23:37
th1aSorry.  Blew a fuse.23:37
dwelshJust to chime in on a sense of timeline...23:37
dwelshWe should aim to finish bulk of code by end of July.23:37
dwelshBecause it basically takes a month to test.23:38
th1aI'll bring a contributor agreement for Paul tomorrow.23:38
dwelshAnd another month of nailing smaller bugs23:38
dwelshWe were about a month behind this year.23:38
jelkneractually, we want to be ready for the dapper release in april, yes?23:38
th1aActually, we're aiming at having the bulk of the ST 2006 code done by April.23:38
dwelshThe earlier the better.23:38
th1aWe won't really have a final release in Dapper.23:39
dwelshI just think that July 31 as a kind of drop-dead date for any major coding is an important date.23:39
th1aNot sure how we'll want to handle it.23:39
jelknera time line is a good thing23:39
th1aI'm thinking of June 31 as the drop dead date for ST.23:39
dwelshAgain, even better.23:39
dwelshWith CanDo, we coded until the end of August.23:40
dwelshLeaving Sept. for major bugs.23:40
jelknernot good23:40
dwelshOct. for minor ones.23:40
jelknerwe don't want to do that again23:40
dwelshLittle late in the process.23:40
jelknerand we won't have to23:40
dwelshNo complaints.  The work was great.  We were getting into the game.23:40
jelknerheavy development begins now23:40
dwelshBut now we're older and wiser.23:40
pcardunewell, considering that we started writing cando in mid june... i'd say that is pretty good23:40
dwelshYes.  Amazing job, really.23:41
jelkneroh, i'm not complaining!23:41
jelknermy only point is that we are now starting development in november23:41
jelknerso we easily be ready by late spring with all new features23:41
th1aI'm extremely excited about what we accomplished yesterday.23:41
dwelshGreat job, guys.23:42
dwelshImport/export functions will be important to CanDo.23:42
dwelshI'm actually doing this work manually for teachers.23:42
dwelshBut we need to be able to import all students in the system.23:42
jelknerpcardune: what about getting mitchell to work on that23:42
dwelshAs well as import all existing competency lists.23:42
th1aImporting to and from what?23:42
dwelshIt really feels like help to instructors if you can hand them a system that is basically set-up.23:43
jelknerth1a: well, for the competencies, we are scrapping the virginia cte website :-(23:43
dwelshThen they can focus on grading, tweaking competencies, creating curriculum.23:43
dwelshJust what they should be doing.23:43
jelknerthat's where the competencies currently exist23:43
srichterIs there some standard for describing those competency lists?23:43
pcardunedwelsh, we just need that cte harvestor to actually work... import and export of competencies is already implemented in working in the version you have now23:43
jelknerin the longer term, it would be nice to get them to publish them in some xml file format for us to use23:44
th1aThere are some relevant standards.23:44
jelknerbut now we only have html23:44
th1aWhere is the cte website?23:44
srichterok, so there is no standard23:44
jelknerhold on23:44
srichterin this case you have the fortunate situation to propose a standard :-)23:44
dwelshwe could probably get the state to work with us on this one.23:45
jelknersrichter: yes23:45
srichterright, I think you guys should write a draft23:45
jelkneronce we figure out what to propose, we will do that ;-)23:45
jelknersrichter: i'm not sure what it would look like?23:46
jelknerproposing a standard is beyond my competency23:46
jelknerwithout guidance at least23:46
pcardune(we could track your competency in that you know)23:46
th1aThere is some prior work here.23:46
srichterwell, you basically are going to describe the XML format that contains the competency lists23:47
srichterth1a: do you have links?23:47
dwelshWelsh will need to sign-off shortly.23:48
jelknerth1a: which document should i begin reading?23:48
th1aHm... not sure.23:48
dwelshBut when I bow my head over my steaming turkey on Thursday23:48
th1aI can send an email to the guy behind this.23:48
dwelshI will not forget to give thanks for pcardune, sricheter, th1a and jelkner23:49
jelknerdwelsh: is there anything else you want to discuss before you go?23:49
th1adwelsh is full of the Thanksgiving spirit.23:49
jelknerand dwelsh, let's not forget to thank dwelsh!23:49
dwelshA shared timeline would help.23:49
dwelshIt would help keep us on the same page.23:50
dwelshAnd then let's just make sure we keep supporting the current version.23:50
th1aI'm going to be working on gradebook this month.23:50
th1aI mean, next month.23:50
dwelshI'm excited already about ST/CD 2006.23:50
dwelshGood luck with the rest of your work tomorrow.23:52
th1aHappy Thanksgiving, Dave.23:52
jelknerok, dave, happy thanksgiving!23:52
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jelknerpcardune, srichter: what about asking mitchell to work on import/export?23:53
srichterwell, he could do that23:54
jelknerit seems to meet the requirements:23:54
srichterbut the format must be documented well, so other parties will pick it up23:54
jelknerit is tangential enough that it won't harm progress23:54
th1aWhere's that main CanDo page?23:55
th1aWhat's the URL?23:55
jelknerwhich page?23:55
th1aAt the school.23:55
jelknergoogle for Arlington Career Center23:55
jelknerit is linked off the main page23:55
jelkneri'll get it...23:55
th1aGot it.23:55
th1aI always want to call it a career academy.23:56
jelknerpcardune: i want some resolution on mitchell23:57
pcardunei dont think mitchell should use any of the web harvesting code the wrote before23:57
pcarduneso he can do that, and it will be useful... but it wont be a part of cando23:57
jelknerthere are two pieces to this:23:57
jelkner1. importing into cando from a standard import format23:58
pcardunejelkner, have you looked at it?  it consists of about 10 different py files and several folders that store all sorts of versions of the web pages... stripped down in various ways... its nearly incomprehensible23:58
jelkner2. scrapping the virginia cte site to get the html transformed into that format23:58
jelknerpart 2 is throw away code23:58
jelknerit doesn't matter how bad it is23:59
jelkneras long as it works23:59
jelknerpart 1 is part of cando23:59
jelknerthat is the important part23:59
jelknerbut we need 2 just once23:59
pcardunewell, currently it doesn't work... and trying to figure out how to make it work is a near impossible task as me and george paci found out a few months back23:59
povbot`/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5336:23:59
jelkneror until we convince virginia to publish there competencies in our format23:59
povbot`/svn/commits: Made the test weaker, but more flexible. This way third party software will not break this test. Please refrain from writing those type of tests.  They are always brittle.23:59

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