IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2005-10-10

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povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5199:14:50
povbot/svn/commits: Added namespace declaration.14:50
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povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 5200:15:25
povbot/svn/commits: Fixed issue 424 (UnboundLocal error in importChunk).15:25
mgedminyay gintas!!!! you're a hero15:28
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povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 5201:16:13
povbot/svn/commits: Fix deprecation warnings (closes issue 426).16:14
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th1aHi alga.16:27
mgedminhi, th1a16:27
th1aHey, where is the code that creates the student timetables?16:27
mgedminbash: cd: Whoops: No such file or directory16:27
th1aThe sample student timetables, that is.16:28
th1aThis is, technically, a holiday in the US.16:29
pips1Hi all, if you don't mind, I'll just hang around in the background of your meeting :-)16:29
th1aWherein we celebrate the discovery of an uninhabited continent.16:30
th1aWell, mostly uninhabited.16:30
th1aNot really uninhabited at all.16:30
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 5202:16:31
povbot/svn/commits: Finish the test utils refactoring by fixing the imports and removing the XXXes.16:31
algath1a: schooltool.course.sampledata.PopulateSectionTimetables16:31
th1aSo, I suppose if I had wanted to guarantee the participation of the US developers I should have a) moved this to Tuesday or b) strenuously exhorted them to participate.16:32
th1aPrior to 3:00 am this morning.16:32
algaIs today a holiday?16:32
th1aThat's what I've been nattering on about:  Columbus Day.16:33
th1aEvery day's a holiday when you work at home!16:33
th1apips1:  Happy to have you aboard.16:33
th1aSo, getting started... how are things coming at POV?16:34
pips1th1a: thanks, I'm working from home right now too :-)16:34
algaThings we were working on last week:16:34
alga* RESTive client lib16:34
alga* srichter refactorings review16:34
alga* Sample data framework (mostly done)16:34
algaThings blocking us:16:34
alga* example of the data to import from Philipp Schroeder16:34
pips1just discussing it with ignas in private...16:34
th1aSo much for lurking in the background.16:35
pips1I will send all the stuff asap16:35
ignasth1a, the contract mentions importing groups, persons, courses, sections ... what about timetables (i am afraid importing of these is not ni our estimates) ?16:35
mgedminalso we fixed #367 from the bugfixing story16:35
pips1(we where just discussing the format of the csv files I should send)16:35
th1aignas:  pips1 can create the timetables manually.16:36
th1aThat's not really a bulk operation.16:36
pips1erm, sorry to disagree.. (ahem) they are quite a few...16:37
algath1a: I think I've come up with a way to generate sensible timetables16:37
algabut it might take quite some time16:37
pips1something like 350 timetable events, maybe?16:37
th1apips1:  What do we mean by timetables?16:38
pips1it's a spreadsheet with all the sections and individual course events...16:38
th1aalga:  I think I can generate sensible timetables fairly easily.  They just won't be very random.16:38
th1aWhich is fine.16:39
ignasth1a, ttschema + term + scheduling of all sections16:39
algaperhaps ttschema and term can be created manually?16:39
ignasprobably they should be16:40
th1aWhat is an individual course event?16:40
* pips1 is wondering whether they are talking about the test data our my school's data regarding ttschema, etc.16:40
th1aI think we're talking about pips1.16:41
pips1in the spreadsheet I've got (with the ca. 350 events), one row would contain this information:16:42
pips1Class  Day  Time       Course                   Teacher (Lecturer)  Room16:42
pips1e.g. 1Me    Mon  1830-2150  Engineering Mechanics I  Stockli W           20116:42
th1aThis is a different spreadsheet than the one we've got already?16:42
pips1that's the one you have16:42
th1aSo the message to POV is that we want to parse the spreadsheet from pips1 that we already have.16:43
th1aAnd that'll be it.16:43
pips1well, more precisely: you have a short, translated and anonimized one, not the original data of my school  , which i am about to send to ignas16:43
pips1(encrypted because of privacy concerns..)16:44
* mgedmin twiddles his thumbs idly16:44
th1aYes, I think we've successfully returned to more or less where we started.16:45
pips1mgedmin: no need for that, go and fix ! ;-D16:45
algathat's a tough one16:46
algasome bad people have done their work in a bad way16:46
algait needs to be fixed fundamentally16:46
pips1honest, I was going to make a plea that you can fix 307 in this round - maybe in the "general bugfix hunting" story?16:46
algapips1: I'm serious16:46
algawe have it in our TODO lists16:46
algathe thing is that the rooms are attached to sections16:47
algaand no magick happens16:47
algaif they would be *booked* for timetable events16:47
algathe events would appear on the resource calendars16:47
pips1alga: I think I see your point, it seems that there is a bigger underlying thing that needs solved... basically mapping the whole sections --> web view --> ical --> pdf16:48
ignasth1a, sorry, but i still do not understand - do we need to parse the timetable data or not ?16:48
algaand the notices would appear on the TTevent16:48
th1aignas: I believe the answer is no.16:48
pips1th1a: no?!16:48
pips1ignas: what do you mean with "timetable data"? You are talking about the timetable events that are in my spreadsheet, no?16:49
ignaspips1, yes, timetable events ... (schedules for sections)16:50
th1aWait, is the question whether or not the sections should be assigned to meeting times?16:51
ignasth1a, yes16:51
pips1ignas: well of course this is th1a's call, but I am very interested that you *do* parse that... :-)16:51
th1aI would think the answer is yes.16:51
* pips1 thinks that th1a just made my day16:52
th1aI would think of that as being part of creating a section.16:52
algathat changes our estimate!!16:52
mgedminthat might invalidate our estimate16:52
algawe're short on tiume anyway16:52
* pips1 ducks the bullets flying16:53
th1aOK.  Understood, but we're also changing the estimate insofar as we aren't spending a day parsing rosters.16:53
algarosters are chean16:54
algatimetables are HARRRRD16:54
algabut ignas is making it look harder than it is ;-)16:54
th1aThere's something I'm missing here.16:55
th1aI guess you have to assume that a timetable schema of a certain form has already been created?16:55
th1aBecause what I'm thinking of is just assigning the sections to periods in the timetable.16:56
th1aAnd the periods are listed in the spreadsheet.16:56
pips1th1a: this is correct16:57
pips1I think the prblem lies in the format of the imports... my files aren't formatted in the way that the csv import for sections/timetables is currently implemented, right?16:58
pips1but that's why we want to do it via REST...16:59
algaWe'll do it16:59
* pips1 is happy17:00
algabut you'll be getting ugly errors if the ttschema or terms aren't set up the way we assume they are17:00
th1aShould pips1 send POV his ttschema?17:00
ignasand if it catches fire - RUN!17:00
th1aalga:  That's fine.17:01
pips1but the ttschema and terms can be set up corretly I think17:01
alganext agenda item please17:01
algath1a: any more comments on the sample data?17:01
th1aI'm going to take a look at the timetable problem.17:02
pips1I think we will run into ugly errors because of typing mistakes in the spreadsheet, though, I'm more concerned about that... I'll then have to manually sanitize those 350 rows...17:02
th1aOK, moving on...17:02
algath1a: I think I have a solution17:02
th1aOK, I'll let you have a shot at it.17:02
th1aBasically, you should be able to make it schedule things fairly sequentially.17:03
th1aPerhaps if every student has classes in a similar sequence.17:03
th1aNow, mgedmin...17:04
th1aregarding this dispute with srichter.17:04
th1aLet me see if I understand the problem.17:04
th1aNormally, one unit tests python view code.17:04
th1aAnd does functional tests for the page templates that use that view code.17:04
* mgedmin reads17:05
mgedminthere are exceptions17:06
mgedminsometimes it is hard to test certain bits in unit tests17:06
mgedmin(security, mostly)17:06
mgedminand we explicity decide to test those only with functional tests17:06
mgedminrather than spending time on exceedingly complicated unit tests17:06
th1aIn the case of, there is view code, but the module generates the full XML output itself.17:07
th1aSo the functional tests and at least some of the unit tests would be virtually identical?17:08
mgedminthere are a bunch of views17:10
mgedminand some classes that I do not precisely understand the point of17:10
mgedminwriting isolated tests for those is not hard17:10
th1aSo the decision to not write unit tests for this particular module seems fairly arbitrary to you?17:11
mgedminI think this particular module should have unit tests, yes17:12
mgedminit's a slippery slope17:12
mgedminI've been there17:12
mgedminyou do not write a test for a trivial class, because it is trivial17:12
mgedminthen you make a trivial change to that class, and not add a test because there were none anyway17:13
th1aI agree that once you start saying "we can just cover this with a functional test" it isn't clear where you stop.17:13
mgedminthen you end up with a nontrivial class and no tests17:13
mgedminalso, when you have isolated tests, it is much easier to add a regression test for a bug17:13
th1aIs there a reason you need a unit test for, say, AcademicStatusView?  Is that unit test going to be testing exactly the same output as a functional test?17:14
mgedminlet me see17:14
mgedminunit tests for the GET method would be pretty much the same as in the functional tests17:15
mgedminunit tests for PUT would be bigger17:16
mgedminthe part that discards unrecognized HTTP Content-* headers with a 501 status code is not tested now17:16
mgedminneither functionally, nor with unit tests17:16
th1aI'll email srichter about it.17:17
mgedminthe parsing bit might conceivably change17:17
mgedminI think I'd rather test the corner cases in unit test17:18
mgedminso as to not overwhelm the README17:18
mgedminwhich should be story-like introduction to the features17:18
mgedminand not an exaustive enumeration of corner cases17:18
th1aOK... a few minutes for comments on new bugs.17:19
th1aI see that import bug was fixed.17:20
th1aAnything seem particularly nasty or troublesome?17:21
pips1if there isn't anything to be discussed about other bugs, I'd like to talk about bug 307 - it's crucial to me and I'd like everybody to be on the same page...17:22
pips1alga already mentioned that is a bigger underlying problem...17:23
th1aHas POV used up all their dedicated bugfixing time on the current contract?17:23
pips1alga: can you elaborate a bit?17:23
pips1alga: (I think I understood what you were saying earlier, but your explanations where in-between other conversations)17:24
algath1a: it seems so, even more than that17:24
th1aI thought so.17:24
th1aAnyhow, I'd like a bit more explanation of this bug, too.17:25
th1aWhere is the relevant code?17:25
algathe timetable events have lists of resources on them17:25
algathe idea is that the resources are booked for the timetable events17:26
algathen the booking would be represented on the resouces' calendars17:26
algaand in the students' calendars17:26
algathe way the locations are assigned to sections now, there's just an attribute on the section17:27
algathe timetable events do not have these resources17:27
algathe location is just displayed on the view of the section17:28
algaThe likely solution is that the location from the section attribute needs to be taken into account when importing the timetable for the section17:29
pips1alga: thanks, I understand the bug better now...17:30
pips1alga: I was kind of suspecting that it wasn't just a superficial matter.. :-/17:31
algapips1: you don't know how grateful I am for you putting up with us...17:32
th1aOK.  Time's up!  I'll be emailing the rest of the crew.17:32
* th1a bangs the virtual gavel.17:32
pips1alga: ach, we are all trying to give our best, I think :-)17:36
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th1aerchache: hi.17:54
erchacheim working upgrading my mediawiki server.....utf8 conversion doesnt run17:55
th1aUh... you want help with mediawiki?18:05
erchacheon the channel are saying me a way to convert my iso char to utf818:07
th1aI have never used mediawiki and have no idea how to solve your problem.18:08
erchachehehehehe dont worry ;P18:08
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erchachejinty: como estamos hoy.....llueve mucho por barcelona?18:36
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mgedminignas: kaip smagu būtų, jei šiame kanale visi šnekėtų savo kalba ir vieni kitų nesuprastų18:37
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jintyerchache: un poco. Pero mi gusta, hace tanto que no lo pase18:44
mgedminhaha, jie vėl tai daro18:44
jintyis it also raining in valencia?18:46
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erchachea huracan convert on tropical storm are passing over spain18:59
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erchachejinty19:02 a huracan or an huracan.... :-s19:02
ignasa huricane19:22
povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5203:19:34
povbot/svn/commits: Accept urls as well as paths as references to schooltool objects.19:34
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jelknerthla: hi tom!20:04
th1aHi jelkner.20:04
th1aSorry to hear about your mother.  My condolences.20:04
jelknerit was a tough last few years for her20:04
jelknerbut she had a wonderful life20:04
jelknerand she felt that way up to the end20:05
jelknerALS is no way to go, however!20:05
jelkneranyway, dave and i are here working on cando docs20:05
jelkneri have a question for you20:05
th1aAh.  Good.20:06
jelknerdave is great20:06
jelknerhe is writing up docs that teachers/admins in school systems will be able to read20:07
jelknerhere is our question:20:07
jelknerwe want to be able to backup the cando data20:07
jelknerwe've been telling folks just to backup the Data.fs file20:07
jelknerbut we were wondering if there could be a way to do this from within CanDo itself, rather than having to ssh in and do unix stuff20:08
th1aIt certainly could be done.20:08
jelknerwell we need to set about doing it then! ;-)20:09
th1aIt wouldn't be hard, but you'd want someone who would know how to do it securely.20:10
jelknerbasically, the idea would be that if you are logged in as admin, you can click somewhere that says "backup your Data.fs"20:11
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jelknerand it would download that to your local machine20:11
th1aHi Welsh.20:11
WelshHey.  We're working on documentation.20:11
jelkneranother quick question20:11
jelknerwhat is the easiest way to use the schooltool site?20:12
th1aWell... are you guys using HTTPS with Apache?20:12
jelknerit is plone, yes?20:12
jelknerno, we are using zope's server20:12
th1aLog in, go to the CanDo section.20:12
povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5204:20:13
povbot/svn/commits: Added group info and group member lisp parsing.20:13
th1aignas:  Are we using Lisp now?20:13
jelkneri've already put up a how-to and faq20:13
jelknermy questions concern formatting20:14
th1aAh.  Nice.20:14
jelkneri can't get ordered lists and stuff20:14
jelkneri'm used to wiki's20:14
th1aWell... let's see.20:15
th1aHm... I'm not sure why you can't change the Text Format to ReStructured Text.20:15
jelknerin the how-to setup cando, for example, i can't list 1)... and 2)...20:15
jelknerthat would be great!20:16
th1aWell, it is HTML...20:16
th1aAre you getting the Kupu WYSIWIG editor?20:16
th1a(green buttons above the textbox for the body)20:17
th1aBy "are you getting" I mean, "do you see."20:18
jelkneryes, i'm getting the Kupu editor20:18
th1aSo you can either turn that off by clicking on the little "script" scroll, which is the last icon on the left.20:19
th1aOr you can use the little ordered list button in the Kupu editor.20:19
jelknerhold on, let me try...20:20
Welshwell, Welsh can login.  It's a start20:20
Welshwell, Welsh managed to logon.  It's a start.20:20
th1aI can ask bskahan if we can turn on ReStructured text for this type of document.20:20
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th1aSome documents do.  It is inconsistent.20:21
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jelknerahh, now i see the problem, i'm trying to do this in the "Summary" section, where I don't see Kupu20:21
th1aYeah.  No markup in the summary.20:21
Welshok.  I can log onto the documentation site.  It's a start.20:22
th1aKeep it short.20:22
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th1aI've been happy using Kupu and the Plone Help Center.20:23
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jelknerthla: tom, another thing to keep in mind is that dave is a tv production guy20:26
jelknerhe is about to start making flash movies to teach use of cando20:27
th1aWe're all set for that.20:27
Welshmeaning, for serving the flash files20:27
WelshI'm using Camtasia to capture what I'm doing on the screen, and then to narrate as I go20:28
Welshcomes in at about .5 mgs per minute as a flash file20:28
th1aThere is a "video" object in PHC.20:28
th1aPlone Help Center.20:29
th1aI just made a container in your documentation setion.20:29
jelknerwhat is a "video" object?20:29
th1aIt is specifically for flash files.20:29
Welshplayback or creation?20:29
th1aI've never used it myself.  Playback.20:29
th1aFor publishing flash screencasts.20:30
tvonI think it just provides a download link20:30
th1aI don't see an example at
th1aYou'll just have to try it.20:32
th1aI don't know why it wouldn't run on the page.20:32
th1aIt's not like that's difficult.20:33
th1aIt has you set the size.20:33
th1aPresumably there's some reason for that.20:33
povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5205:20:38
povbot/svn/commits: Moved setPassword and setPhoto to PersonRef.  Made createPerson return a person ref.20:38
ignasth1a, what are the semantics of section title ?20:42
ignaswhere is it used ?20:42
th1aThat is a good question.20:43
ignasand who made it a required field20:43
ignaswhile there was a section-id field that could have been used for the same purpose :/20:43
ignasi mean for giving a sensible system id to a section ...20:43
th1aI'm unhappy with the state of the section object.20:44
ignasi am thinking what titles should imported sections have ...20:44
th1aIn my opinion, sections should have optional id's and the titles should be generated dynamically.20:45
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th1aI mean, they have to have id's, but it should be optional for the user to set them.20:45
th1aI may end up fixing the section object myself.20:46
th1aBecause the more I try to explain them the more messed up they become.20:46
th1aBut doing sections right is really dependent on having default roles set up in ST.20:47
ignasall they needed was a good refactoring :/20:47
th1aWhich is still coming soon.20:47
jelknerthla: tom, i've gotta run21:09
jelknerwe have a bug that paul hasn't been able to fix21:10
jelknerwhen you first point your browser at a cando instance21:11
jelknerif you click on on "CanDo" and then click on "Sections" you get a trace-back error21:11
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jelkneri think this exists because it requires a change in schooltool21:12
jelknerwhich jinty probably didn't pick up when he built the package21:12
jelknerso i'll check with paul again and see what we can do21:13
jelknerbut it looks aweful and is something you bump into as you first look at the app.21:13
jelknerok, talk to you soon...21:14
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povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5206:21:15
povbot/svn/commits: Add section, course container parsing.21:15
povbot/svn/commits: * alga committed revision 5207:21:22
povbot/svn/commits: Changed the sample timetable schema to have sequences of periods rotate.21:22
povbot/svn/commits: * vidas committed revision 5208:21:28
povbot/svn/commits: Sample data plugin that creates groups and populates with students.21:28
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povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5209:21:40
povbot/svn/commits: Made createGroup return a GroupRef object.  Made restiveclient Sci-Fi progress a little further.21:40
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