IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2005-09-13

povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4960:00:05
povbot/svn/commits: Fix little incompatibility bug from the latest WSGI work.00:05
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4961:00:42
povbot/svn/commits: Update code to reflect latest changes to Zope 3. Now all tests should pass again.00:42
srichterth1a: I wonder whether Brian will be online again today?00:43
srichterth1a: maybe you can give me something else to work on too00:46
srichterwhat about the authentication stuff?00:46
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povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4962:00:53
povbot/svn/commits: Removed outstanding deprecation warnings. Now we are fully WSGI enabled :-)00:53
th1aLet's not get too many threads going at once.00:54
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povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4963:01:17
povbot/svn/commits: Merged rev 4929, 4930, 4931.01:17
bskahansrichter: are you around?01:23
th1abskahan:  I think you just missed him.01:30
th1aHe was just asking if I thought you'd turn up.01:31
srichterbskahan: hi01:31
srichterth1a: bskahan: so what's the plan with the pluggable UI?01:32
srichterI think the work could be split as follows:01:32
th1aDo you guys have the last proposal I sent out on the matter (about two weeks ago).01:33
srichter(1) Get pagelet working for us witha  minimal example and (2) Make a design on the page layout01:33
th1aThat was the one AFTER the "insane" verison.01:33
bskahanth1a: yes I have it01:33
srichterit's somewhere :-)01:33
bskahanin mail01:33
th1aThat's pretty much as far as I can take it myself.01:33
bskahanthat mail covered the basic use cases01:34
srichtergot it01:34
bskahanplugin components accessing 3 sections of the page01:34
srichterthat document is far too high-level for me :-)01:35
srichterI want to make a feasibility study first01:35
srichterthat means we got to write down the low-level use cases and make sure that we have a technology that covers this01:35
bskahanto establish that the current pagelet code will work (or close to it)01:36
srichterI have a couple cases, such as the devmode that could hugely profit from this01:37
bskahanexamples we could do without actually having a third party plugin include getting the section module to populate slots in the person/group view with it's timetable01:37
srichterso here is what I could do:01:37
srichter- Write a small demo using pagelet01:37
srichter- Implement devmode using pagelets01:38
bskahanif I understand the current pagelet code, we need slots to put our pagelets into to make them useful01:38
bskahanin terms of making regions of the page actually pluggable01:39
srichterright, slots are like placeholders that are empty lists01:39
* bskahan nods01:39
srichteryou can fill them with the items you want to show01:39
srichteractually they are very very similar to menus01:39
bskahanI can probably start by moving the existing UI components to a pagelets/slots layout01:41
srichterok, th1a and bskahan is that agreeable for now? I can send estiamtes for this tomorrow...01:41
srichterbskahan: cool01:41
srichterbskahan: I think it would be also good to start documenting the slots before we implement them01:41
srichterthis way we have documentation to work from before the implementation01:41
srichterand this work can be done in parallel to the discovery01:42
* bskahan nods01:42
srichteronce that is done we can start attacking Tom's high-level use cases01:42
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bskahanin terms of what slots are available to modules and what each should be used for01:42
bskahanok, I have the start of that document somewhere01:42
bskahanI'll track it down01:43
srichtercool, so would you like to do this?01:43
srichteralso, in the same spirit we really, really need to develop a generic CSS guideline01:43
srichterthe CSS is utterly specific now, but has no generic definitions01:43
srichterok, so can you write your part of the proposal and I write mine?01:44
bskahanyeah, I'd like to do this, there have been a number of times when I wished we had something like it01:44
srichterand then we merge them tomorrow01:45
* bskahan nods01:45
srichterok, then it's all settled :-)01:45
bskahanit will have to be in the evening again unfortunately01:45
srichterno problem01:45
bskahanhopefully earlier than this though01:45
srichterI have to teach lab till 5:00pm anyways tomorrow01:46
bskahanok, that's about when I'll be around01:46
bskahantalk to you then01:46
srichterok, see ya tomorrow01:46
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th1aSounds good to me.02:05
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gokrth1a: Ah, there you are. :)02:39
th1aHi gokr.02:43
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povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4964:04:23
povbot/svn/commits: Fixed up devmode completely.04:23
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mgedminsrichter, unit tests fail on the srichter-refactoring branch13:16
mgedminyet another Zope 3 change?13:16
mgedmin  File "/home/mg/src/srichter-refactor/schooltool/src/schooltool/app/rest/", line 56, in __call__13:16
mgedmin    request = HTTPRequest(input_stream, env)13:16
mgedminTypeError: __init__() takes at least 4 arguments (3 given)13:16
mgedminthe other failure is in13:17
mgedminFile "/home/mg/src/srichter-refactor/schooltool/src/schooltool/sbapp/rest/tests/", line 45, in
mgedminsame error13:17
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4965:13:30
povbot/svn/commits: It is useful to see errors when they happen13:30
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srichtermgedmin: your Zope 3 does not seem uptodate13:32
srichtertry to update Zope 313:32
srichteri.e. a fresh checkout will do too13:32
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4966:13:33
povbot/svn/commits: ACL view optimisation: speed it up roughly 10 times.13:33
povbot/svn/commits: Previously the ACL view computed the set of available permissions for all principals, and then applied batching to show only a subset.  The computation was expensive.  Now the ACL view first does batching, and only then performs the computation.  End result: ACL view rendering time went from 3 to 0.3 seconds, and form handling went from 5 to 0.5 seconds on my laptop (Pentium M, 1.6 GHz).13:33
mgedminsrichter, that's not good13:33
mgedminwhen the branch becomes the trunk13:33
mgedminbuildbot will do precisely this:13:33
mgedmin   svn up13:33
mgedmin   make13:33
mgedmin   make test13:33
mgedmin   make ftest13:33
mgedminI want that exact sequence of steps to work anywhere, if the machine has all the dependencies installed13:34
mgedminperhaps we can add 'svn up Zope3' to the Makefile?13:35
mgedminalso, I'd suggest adding Zope 3 to svn:ignore13:36
mgedminsrichter, my Zope3 is up to date13:36
mgedmin"At revision 38449."13:36
mgedminah, it is the Zope-3.1 branch13:37
mgedmindo I need the trunk?13:37
mgedminno, svn:externals explicitly say I need the Zope-3.1 branch13:37
mgedminand because we have svn:externals there, svn up ensures I will always have the latest version13:37
mgedminthus noneed for an explicit svn up Zope 3 in the makefile13:38
srichteryeah, you need the trunk13:54
mgedminsrichter, can you please fix the svn:externals then?13:55
srichterwe don't use externals anymore13:55
srichterits all done in the Makefile13:55
mgedminam I crazy?13:55
srichteryep :-)13:55
mgedmin$ svn info13:56
mgedminPath: .13:56
mgedminURL: svn+ssh://
mgedmin$ svn proplist .13:56
mgedminProperties on '.':13:56
mgedmin  svn:ignore13:56
mgedmin  svn:externals13:56
mgedmin$ svn proplist svn+ssh://
mgedminProperties on 'svn+ssh://':13:56
mgedmin  svn:ignore13:56
mgedmincrazy subversion...13:57
srichterI have this in there too, but it is never used for me13:57
mgedminsvn st shows no changes13:57
mgedminsvn up changes nothing13:57
mgedminsvn propdel svn:externals . reports that . is now modified13:57
srichternope, wrong answer13:58
mgedmingo figure..13:58
srichter[srichter@einstein SchoolTool]$ cd refactor/schooltool/13:58
srichter[srichter@einstein schooltool]$ svn proplist13:58
srichterProperties on '.':13:58
srichter  svn:ignore13:58
srichterok, I have to continue with my morning bootup sequence13:59
srichterI will be online in 60 mins again13:59
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mgedminhotshot profiler's output is 6 megs and takes ages to load14:00
mgedminif I pickle the stats object given me by hotshot.pstats.load, I get a 60kb file that loads instanteously14:01
mgedminhotshot.log.LogReader is 8 times slower than _hotshot.logreader14:12
mgedminsadly they are not equivalent14:12
mgedmin(one wraps the other)14:12
mgedminyay unit tests all pass on srichter's branch14:17
mgedminfunctional tests spew a libxml2 error to the console14:18
mgedminsome test doesn't have the neccessary "shut up libxml2" setup14:18
mgedminacl view with 1000 users: get 0.7±0.1s, post ~0.8s14:23
mgedminacl view with 10000 users: 0.5 gig of ram is not enough to create all of them!  I'm swapping!14:24
mgedminRES: 383m, VIRT: 446m14:25
* mgedmin kills the process14:27
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srichterah, where did marius go?14:45
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jinty, then university14:54
srichterI see14:54
srichterdarn, do you know whether they got the branch working?14:54
jinty<mgedmin> yay unit tests all pass on srichter's branch14:55
srichterok, then the ftests should pass too14:55
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povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4967:15:53
povbot/svn/commits: Declare content interfaces as content type interfaces.15:53
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ignasbskahan, ping19:03
bskahanignas: hey19:07
ignasdo your new functional tests pass ? :D19:08
ignasbecaue well they shouldn't - I have just spotted a bug that should be breaking weekly view with at least one non all-day event19:15
ignasthe template in srichters branch is different :/19:16
ignasmy bad19:16
ignasgot some fixing to do :/19:17
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povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 4968:19:38
povbot/svn/commits: Fixed a bug - the view would not render if there were any non all-day events.19:38
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ubuntuthla: hi tom, can we have a 4 pm EST cando meeting here?20:49
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welshNelkneri want to send out an email, but i wanted to check with you first20:50
welshNelknertvon: hi Tom!20:50
tvonwelshNelkner: hey, hows it going?20:50
welshNelknerjinty: hi Brian!20:50
welshNelkneri'm at the arlington career center with dave welsh20:51
welshNelknerthe whole school is pumped up about cando20:51
tvoncool :)20:51
welshNelknerthe director gave me a cando sign he had made up20:51
welshNelknerthey are putting them up around the building20:51
tvonvery cool20:52
welshNelknerand everyone is *very* impressed with the application20:52
tvonI'm working on getting it running with the srichter-refactor branch at the moment20:52
tvonnice, positive feedback is a good motivator20:52
welshNelknerwe have a 4 pm meeting scheduled with paul20:53
welshNelkneri was wondering if we could have it here today20:53
welshNelknerso we could all meet20:53
welshNelknertom, brian, does that work for you?20:54
tvonWorks for me20:54
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welshNelkneremail sent21:01
welshNelknertvon: i'm heading home so i can make the meeting on time21:01
welshNelknertalk to you in a bit...21:01
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tvonalright, tty then21:05
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4969:21:08
povbot/svn/commits: Refactored reusable parts of the ACL benchmark into a utility module.21:08
povbot/svn/commits: (Note that the code in benchmark/ has considerably lower quality standards -- it is more important to have something that works now, than to have something that is clear and maintainable in the long run.  Do not use it as an example of what is acceptable for the schooltool/bell core.  I do expect that in the future we will refactor the benchmark code somewhat if we need to write more benchmarks.)21:08
jintyhoi welshNelkner: about how long till the meeting?21:11
* jinty must really get himself a timezone converter21:11
th1a4:00 EDT is in an hour and 50 minutes.21:12
jintyok, i'll be around21:13
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4970:21:14
povbot/svn/commits: Playing with statistics: display min/max/mean/stddev.21:14
povbot/svn/commits: Big fat warning: the statistics are probably totally bogus.  I refer you to the documentation of the timeit module, and to a nice rant about programmers' ignorance of statistics[1].21:14
povbot/svn/commits: [1]
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4971:21:23
povbot/svn/commits: Added a benchmark for recurrent events in the daily calendar view.21:23
povbot/svn/commits: (Ignas wrote the benchmark, I just refactored it a little and committed.)21:24
povbot/svn/commits: Added a warmup step to keep stddev down.21:24
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4972:21:35
povbot/svn/commits: Added a benchmark for many simple calendar events.21:35
povbot/svn/commits: (Ignas wrote the benchmark, I just refactored it a little and committed.)21:35
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jelknerhi all22:04
jelknertvon: tom, can we add the 4 pm cando discussion to the Topic list?22:05
tvonjelkner: erm, I don't think I have the ability to do that22:13
*** tvon changes topic to " SchoolTool development | IRC logs at | Buildbot: | Dev meetings Mon, 13:30 UTC | CanDo meeting Sept 13th @ 4pm"22:14
tvonth1a: I hope you don't mind22:15
th1aI don't care.22:15
th1aSomeday I will learn the ins and outs of IRC channel administration.22:15
th1aI've managed to avoid it so far.22:15
mgedmintvon, timezone would be nice22:16
mgedmin4pm is very ambiguous22:16
tvonmgedmin: ah, good point22:17
*** tvon changes topic to " SchoolTool development | IRC logs at | Buildbot: | Dev meetings Mon, 13:30 UTC | CanDo meeting Sept 13th @ 4pm EST"22:17
* mgedmin hates subversion sometimes22:39
dave_welshhello all22:41
jelknerdave_welsh: hey dave!22:41
dave_welshtvon, are you the one working on our packaging?22:41
tvondave_welsh: no, that would be jinty22:41
dave_welshtvon, are you hoffman?22:42
tvondave_welsh: no, that would be th1a :)22:42
tvondave_welsh: I'm von Schwerdtner22:42
dave_welshgotcha.  What's your role?22:42
tvonI'm working on the transition to Subversion and starting the conversion to a Zope3 package22:43
dave_welshbless you22:43
tvonwhy thank you :)22:43
th1adave_welsh: Hi.22:43
dave_welshhi, how are things going down at SchoolTool?22:43
jelknertvon: you are also going to talk about paul about his code, yes?22:43
tvonjelkner: yes22:44
th1aI'm doing sort of a poster presentation at the T+L2 conference in Denver next month.22:44
th1aI'd like to include some stuff about CanDo.22:44
jelknerdave discovered some bugs and i want to be sure we are adding unit tests whenever they are fixed22:44
th1aActually, it would be great if you could come, if you have money lying around for such things (I expect you don't).22:45
jelknerso they don't reappear later22:45
jelknerand we can refactor without fear ;-)22:45
* jelkner is not much of a programmer, but he's got all the XP lingo down!22:46
jelknerdave_welsh: any word from paul?22:46
dave_welshnot yet.  I'm checking to see when he logs onto Skype.22:46
* tvon goes to feed the cats so they leave him alone22:48
jelknerdave_welsh: can you and i work on an agenda?22:50
jelknera few issues:22:50
jelkner1. getting the code ready for tom (tvon)22:50
jelkner2. fixing bugs (now and later)22:51
dave_welsh2.  handling bugs that hamper using current version22:51
dave_welshgreat minds think22:51
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jelknerhey paul!22:51
jelkner3. getting the tar ball to jinty22:52
jelkneri think that's it22:52
dave_welshmelding CanDo with a version of SchoolTool that works with it?22:53
jelknerthat's implied in (1)22:53
tvonfor 1) there isn't anything you need to do to prepare it for me.  I have already converted it to svn and created a branch to get it working with the current schooltool refactor branch22:53
tvonthe old schooltool-fork in CVS is the new trunk in SVn22:53
tvonSVN is just waiting or bskahan to have some time to set it up on the schooltool server22:53
jelknertvon: we need to get paul setup with developer access so he can fix bugs22:54
jintytvon: does it still work with 0.11?22:54
tvonAnyone that will be working with SVN should send a SSHv2 public key to bskahan22:54
jelknerpcardune: paul, did you do that yet?22:55
tvonjinty: CanDo trunk includes a full schooltool with a few small tweaks.  It will not run out-of-the-box with any ST release at the moment22:55
tvonThe intentio was to just release it like thatm though I could spend time getting it to work with 0.11 instead of messing with the refactor branch22:56
jintytvon: this full schooltool release with a few tweaks, can it be 0,11?22:56
jintybecause with all the re-factoring, there are bound to be many issues with installing schooltool itself.22:57
tvonjinty: cando code would need some tweaks... currently the code resides in src/schooltool/candotoo22:57
tvonThe question is, do we want to make the required changes this late in the game before release or just shove the big bundle out the door?22:58
th1aI would note that there will be a 0.11.2 with substantial performance increases in a month to six weeks, which you will probably want to use.22:58
tvonth1a: when is the refactor branch due to become trunk?22:58
th1aSoon, but that trunk will continue to be heavily ripped apart and put back together for a while.22:59
* tvon nods22:59
th1aI'd count on using the 0.11.x branch this school year.22:59
th1aDoing it right with 1.x next year.22:59
pcarduneI just sent my SSHv2 public key to bshakan23:00
jelknerwe need to make sure you have everything you need to fix bugs asap23:00
tvonOkay, then I'll drop the refactor-based package and work on setting cando up as a package for the 0.11 branch23:00
jelkneroh, another agenda item:  what should we do with the old repository?23:00
jelknertvon: yes, 0.11 is the breezy version23:01
jelknerwe just want cando to work on breezy for now23:01
tvonSomeone with SourceForge access should probably "hide" it on the project page if possible.23:01
tvon(the CVS)23:01
jelknertvon: yes23:02
tvonand anything else that isn't being used.. eg the issue tracker23:02
jelknerwe have cando.sf.net23:02
pcardunejelkner, but breezy hasn't even been released yet...23:02
jelkneri've been using it for a month already23:02
jelknerit comes out in october423:02
* tvon has been using it for some time now23:02
jelknerbut it is perfectly usable now23:02
jelkner(and sweet! ;-)23:03
tvonindeed :)23:03
jelkneri'm writing this from the new edubuntu server at the mount rainier public library23:03
pcardunein that case I'll download it today23:03
jelkneredubuntu is the ltsp version of breezy23:03
jelknerit too works very well23:03
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jelknerok, back on task23:04
jintytvon: So the tarball will be a modified schooltool tarball with an extra src/schooltool/candotoo package? (If so, I can start doing the packaging)23:04
jintys/schooltool/schooltool 0.11.x/23:04
tvonjinty: my intention was to use the current code as the tarball, yes23:05
tvonI think there are too many changes required to make it a package if we want to release ASAP23:06
jelknertvon: all i need is a dead simple way to setup a cando server on a breezy box23:07
tvonjelkner: a deb package is the simplest way23:07
jelknerindeed, my dream is "apt-get install cando"23:07
jelknerbut if that will slow us down, a simple install script would be ok too23:07
jelknerwe need two things:23:08
jelkner1. an install proceedure simple enough for a teacher to use23:08
jelkner2. a way for paul to fix bugs23:09
jelkner(oops 3 things)23:09
jelkner3. a simple way to update a broken server with the fixes23:09
jintyjelkner: if I get the tarball (modified schoolbell-0.11.x + cando), you will be able to 'apt-get install cando' within 2 days.23:09
jelknerjinty: that would do it!23:10
jelknerthen as long as paul knows how to build the package when he fixes bugs, apt-get upgrade will fix things, yes?23:10
jintyhe will also need to upload the packages to a repository. my plan was to use one on the new schooltool server. does he have an account?23:11
jelknerpcardune: do you?23:11
tvonjelkner: jelkner: he will, its the same server as the cando svn repository23:12
pcarduneSo, I will get cando working with schooltool 0.11 and send you the tarball to make into a package23:14
tvonpcardune: the current schooltool-fork or a fresh 0.11?23:15
pcardunea fresh 0.1123:16
tvonah, that would be great23:16
jelknerpcardune: and perhaps you could fix a few of dave's pressing bugs at the same time?23:18
jelknerhow will bug tracking work on the new server?23:18
tvonjelkner: use Launchpad23:18
jelkneranother goal is for dave and i to learn how to do that23:19
jelkneri'll work on it and then set him up23:19
jelknerand paul, you need to learn that as well23:19
jelknerso we report the bugs, and you can fix23:20
pcarduneyes... that is very necessary23:20
jelknerok, what needs to be done?23:22
pcarduneI'm talking to dave right now about the bugs23:22
jelknertvon: you need the tar ball from paul, yes?23:22
pcardunei'm working on that right now as well23:22
jelknerare we finished here, then?23:22
tvonjelkner: no, jinty does23:22
tvonpcardune: I just need you to commit any changes you make for the tarball to svn trunk when it is setuo23:23
tvoner, setup23:23
jelknertvon: but aren't you going to look over the code first?23:23
tvonjelkner: I'm using SVN for that, or do you want me to look over it before jinty packages it?23:23
tvonIt's probably better if I just work off of svn23:24
jelknertvon: fine23:24
tvonjelkner, pcardune: you should both have access to the CanDo project on launchpad23:24
pcarduneok, I'll start looking at that now, thanks23:25
jelknerlet me check23:25
dave_welshcan I interject two dates?23:25
tvonthis is the admin team if you want to adjust anything:
tvondave_welsh: sure23:25
dave_welshmy goal as the teaching using CanDo is to have our server up by this Friday23:26
dave_welshthis server will be used to serve our whole school23:26
dave_welshwhere many instructors are anxious to implement CanDo23:26
dave_welshThen two weeks from today I travel to VA Beach Advanced Tech Center23:26
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dave_welshto get THEM up and going on CanDo23:27
dave_welshso the reason to have our server up by this Friday23:27
dave_welshis so that I can test aggressively for a week with multiple instructors23:27
dave_welshdo these two dates seem feasible/doable?23:27
pcardunesounds reasonable for me23:28
dave_welshWe are aggressively putting data into our development version of CanDo now23:29
dave_welshto catch these initial bugs that hamper its fundamental operation23:29
dave_welshI understand that we'll be able to incorporate additional bug fixes over the next couple of weeks23:29
tvonSeems good to me.  jinty is creating the package though, which is what you will be using on Friday23:29
dave_welshthe good news for us all...23:29
dave_welshfour sections/classes of our students saw CanDo today23:30
dave_welshand they are VERY motivated by it, as are the three instructors working with it23:30
tvonThats great news23:30
dave_welshCanDo is having its intended effect, which is a powerful one23:30
dave_welshI have in all students, their photos, their initial competency ratings23:31
dave_welshI just want to get the teachers using CanDo on a daily basis23:31
th1aAs another aside, future versions of SchoolTool will have much more aggressive and realistic sample data generation built in.  Generating a school of 1000 students with full schedules.23:31
th1aAnd a framework for integrating sample data from add-ons as you write them, like CanDo.23:31
th1aThat's in POV's current contract.23:31
dave_welshThere's nothing like sample data.23:32
th1aIt got lost in the shuffle here the past few releases.23:32
dave_welshIn fact, in the demo to our staff, we were asked to use sample data instead of real student names and numbers23:32
dave_welshto protect the privacy of actual kids23:32
jelknerpcardune: did you see launchpad?  my first impression is  good one!23:34
* tvon is regularly impressed with Launchpad as he finds new nooks and crannies23:35
jelknermy bet is, pcardune will be too...23:37
pcarduneall though I can't see much to do23:37
pcardunemaybe I am missing some major point... where are the actual management screens?23:37
th1aLaunchPad is a massive beast.23:38
tvonpcardune: there should be a number of links on the right sidebar23:38
pcardunefor adding bugs/specs/etc23:38
tvonthe UI is less than ideal at the moment, in terms of logical organization of elements23:38
pcardunethere are... but they don't seem to lead to any place for adding bugs or editing information or anything really (except the details on the front page)23:39
tvonpcardune: there should be (for example) a "Report a Bug" link23:40
pcardunedon't see one, (this is in
tvonpcardune: ahh, no, thats the group23:41
pcardunethat was clearly the major point that I was missing...23:41
pcardunenow that is far more impressive23:42
tvonfor SourceForge, if given access to the project I can "turn off" things that should be turned off23:45
pcarduneI can handle that23:46
jintyif the tarball can't be uploaded to launchpad(I don't know), it may be an idea to upload it to sourceforge for this release23:48
jintyshould the package be named cando or candotoo?23:50
jelknerthanks, tvon, you beat me to it!23:50

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