IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2005-09-05

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povbot`/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4920:14:36
povbot`/svn/commits: Fix uploading schoolbell translation templates in the release branch.14:36
jintyhoi mgedmin14:49
jintyI want to start auto-building the *.pot files14:49
jintyand dispaying them on the web14:49
jintyand was thinking buildbot might be the best way14:50
jintyany advice/scripts you can give me?14:51
jintyI also want to import my love-cd building harness to svn+ssh://
jintys/love/live/ :)14:55
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ignasmgedmin, is having luch15:18
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mgedminjinty, I'm not sure buildbot is the best fit for this job16:15
mgedminalthough it would work16:15
ignasbtw - which target of the makefile eanbles translation of schoolbell ?16:22
ignasbecause just make is not enough ...16:22
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bskahanignas: make extract-translations or something?16:23
bskahanand make update-translations16:23
ignaswhy aren't these two in some readme ?16:24
ignasor at least in the default make ?16:24
mgedminaren't they?16:25
mgedmin(in the README?)16:25
th1aHi all.16:28
mgedminhi, th1a16:30
th1aSo is POV switching into SchoolTool mode?16:30
bskahanhey tom16:30
th1ahi ignas, bskahan16:30
th1aI probably should have shifted this meeting to tomorrow, since today is a holiday in the US.16:31
th1aI was preoccupied with getting POV started.16:31
th1aOK.  The first and main priority is working out what POV needs to start doing.16:34
th1aLets look at necessary bugfixes & improvements to the current SchoolBell/SchoolTool.16:35
th1aWe're only doing things that are necessary for people to realistically continue using SchoolTool this year.16:35
th1aI don't consider the speed of the application to be adequate.16:36
th1aSo that's one priority.16:36
bskahanyear view is particularly slow and resource intensive16:36
th1aThat view is always going to have to have the most work to do, I'd think.16:37
th1aAnd it isn't going to be used that frequently.16:37
* bskahan nods16:37
th1aSo realistically, if that takes five seconds, it isn't such a big deal.16:37
bskahanI'm less worried about the load time than the server load16:38
th1aGood point.16:38
bskahan3 people hitting the year view concurrently slows down the whole system16:38
th1aSo speeding up the calendar views is the first priority.16:39
bskahando students need access to the year view?16:39
th1aI see what you're saying.16:39
th1aWe could just turn it off.16:39
bskahanI noticed iCal and evolution don't have a year view16:39
th1aYou don't really need it.16:39
algaa yearly view is a way to zoom to some date16:40
algawe don't need to touch the calendar there at all16:40
algahighlighting "busy" days is nice, but expensive16:40
mgedmin(except that we now do that to figure out which days have any events at all)16:40
bskahanwe can replace the current jump-to portlet with the calendar widget16:41
algagood idea16:41
bskahanand remove the year view16:41
ignasmust it be expensive ? i mean isn't there a way to just look at the day and find out whether there is an event (any event at all)16:41
mgedminignas, there is a way, and it is expensive16:41
bskahanyou have to expand events to find recurrent events too16:42
th1aWell, we should focus on speeding up the other views, which I'd imagine would speed up the year view, too.16:42
th1aAnd if it gets fast enough, great.16:42
mgedminthere was a link about indexing calendar events16:43
th1aAnd if not, I'd agree that we're better off not using it.16:43
th1aYes.  He got from 3.5 second search to 0.17, so there's room for improvement.16:44
th1aI assume we could use the same approach?16:46
algawe could16:46
mgedminok, so there's one story: make calendars fast16:46
bskahanhow do we define fast16:47
th1a10x faster than now?16:47
mgedminreasonably low rendering time with a reasonably large amount of data?16:47
th1aWell, you're also going to do sample data generation.16:48
bskahanmgedmin: and a reasonably large number of concurrent users16:48
mgedminok, so there's another story: sample data generation16:48
th1aSo ideally you'd do that first.16:48
th1aI did send you guys an email with these stories sketched out before I left Lithuania.16:48
algaOK, Pluggable sample data generation16:49
* mgedmin nods16:49
th1aI wrote up a description of the sample school's size, schedule, etc.16:49
th1aDo you want me to resend that16:50
mgedminno, I have it right here16:50
mgedminunless you have an updated version?16:50
algajust mentioning the date would be more than enough16:50
algathe list archives are public16:50
mgedminalga, it was sent to on Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 19:25:39 +030016:51
th1aI'm not positive I sent it to the list.16:51
th1aAlthough I'm not sure why I didn't.16:51
algauhuh, it's sent to pov.lt16:51
th1aOK, so sample data generation.16:53
th1aAny questions about that at this point?16:53
th1abskahan:  I think I cc:ed you on the email in question.  Do you have it?16:54
bskahanth1a: I don't have it16:56
bskahancan you forward it to me16:56
th1abskahan: sent.16:57
mgedminjust one question: where is the developer mode menu?16:57
bskahanisn't that schoolbell only at the moment?16:57
th1aWhere is it in code or UI?16:57
mgedminboth ;)16:58
bskahanmgedmin: i think its only in schoolbell, you have to enable it in the config file16:58
bskahanin the UI its in the top right corner16:58
th1aI would hope srichter has it working in his branch, as well.16:58
bskahanin code its
th1aIt is a collapsable menu.16:59
th1aIt seems that the ACL view is particularly slow as well.17:00
th1aIs there batching in that view?17:00
bskahanshould be17:01
ignasso what is the plan for this week ?17:01
th1aignas:  That's what we're trying to work out.17:01
th1aAre you guys all working on SchoolTool this week?17:01
mgedminI have to make a release of another product first17:02
mgedminit could take half a day17:02
th1amgedmin needs to work on checking and merging srichter's recent work.17:02
mgedminnot just me, I hope!17:02
th1aWell, however you want to do it.17:02
th1aAnd you do have the right to just tell him to fix things which you think are broken.17:03
th1aYou're representing the customer in this case.17:03
ignaswhat about speedin up of schooltool ? implementing sample data generation before merging would be waste of resources ...17:03
ignasand we shouls speed up ST that is currently being used in the wild ...17:04
ignasor we shouldn't ?17:04
th1aWell, it is an awkward moment.17:04
th1aWe need to speed up the versions in the wild and the new trunk.17:05
bskahanfor testing speed ups in the current release we could just use a sample set, rather than a generation mechanism17:05
th1aSo there will be some porting involved.17:05
ignasporting ?17:05
algaignas: not to worry17:05
th1aI imagined writing the sample data generation for the new trunk.17:05
algawe could branch srichter's branch and work on it17:05
th1aDoing the optimizations.17:06
th1aPorting them to the stable versions.17:06
th1aIn a perfect world, we wouldn't have to do that.17:06
th1aBut it is where we are.17:07
tiredbonestiredbones: bookmark to self17:08
ignasso the plan is - one  thread works on optimization while using dummy data while another is working on merging srichters branch17:08
ignasand after merging data we implement dummy data generation, and continue the optimization ...17:09
th1aI guess the sequencing partly depends on how long the merge will take.17:09
ignashow about - only optimizing the *wild* schooltool untill the branches are merged ?17:10
th1aThat would be ok too.17:10
th1aIt would be helpful, but not necessary to do the optimizations after we had the sample data generation done.17:11
th1aBut just starting on optimizing the wild versions is probably fine.17:11
algathat will make merging a lot more pain17:11
algath1a: so, we'll need to do bugfix releases with optimizations?17:12
th1aCan't really get around it.  Unless we want people to give up on SchoolTool sometime in October, when their performance grinds to a halt.17:13
algaso there are separate more or less independent threads of work17:15
alga1) merge the new trunk17:15
th1aIt is a little tricky.17:15
alga2) optimize the old trunk17:15
algathe problem is that the optimizations will have to be merged between the old and the new trunk17:16
bskahanand the "bugfix" will have to run generations on mid-year data17:18
* mgedmin sighs17:18
th1aWe could bump the version number, but I don't really want to.17:19
* alga sighs17:19
th1aLuckily, we're paying you to do this.17:20
algath1a: so, what about my plan?17:20
th1aWhatever works.17:20
algaOK, got it...17:20
th1aThe optimizations and bugfixes need to end up in the production and stable branches.17:20
th1aSample data generation just in the new development trunk.17:21
th1aAlso, lets quickly look at other bugs that really ought to be fixed, or at least resolved.17:22
th1aI put down 351, which is the pdf name for the front page calendar.17:22
th1a356: more timezone weirdness17:23
th1a(these may not require actual fixes)17:23
th1a347: group membership submit button glitch17:24
th1aAnd we should probably fix some of Phillip's issues.17:24
th1aThe guiclient isn't actually in the current trunk, right?17:25
bskahanth1a: I'll try to verify 35617:25
algath1a: it's about a year now that guiclient has been dropped out of trunk17:25
bskahanI noticed iCal has an "enable Timezones" button that may cause havoc ;)17:25
th1abskahan:  good catch.17:26
th1aSo one thing I'd like to have POV do is knock together some scripts that use REST to solve Philipp's import problems.17:27
th1aWe badly need some examples of how REST is supposed to work.17:27
th1aAnd we need to do some real work with it, because I'm sure gaps have crept in, since nobody has been using it for real.17:28
bskahanits not the most effecient way to import data if you have local access to the data.fs17:28
bskahanI realize there are other benefits, just thought the performance should be mentioned17:29
th1aThat's not an issue.17:29
mgedminthe old rest-based csv import used to be horrifyingly slow17:29
th1aWe don't want to be telling people to hack directly into their database.17:30
th1aHow slow is horrifyingly?17:30
th1aI don't recall it being a problem.17:30
algait was OK17:30
th1aI mean, if we don't even want to use REST, then we've truly wasted a ton of time and effort.17:31
bskahanth1a: we do want to use rest, for communicating with other servers and third party applications17:32
th1aI think we should blow the dust off the guiclient code and write some examples and brief docs on using it.17:32
bskahannot even third party, just external17:32
algaa CSV import script is a good example of such an application17:32
algath1a: please, not the gui code!17:33
bskahanth1a: the nokia attendance interface would be an example17:33
th1aIsn't guiclient just the underlying library?17:33
th1aguiclient doesn't actually have an wxPython code, iirc.17:34
th1aOr perhaps I'm using the wrong name.17:34
algabut on itself it is meaningless17:34
bskahanth1a: we just need a use case17:34
algaI thought you were suggesting to resurrect the whole wx client17:34
th1aGood lord.17:34
mgedminlet's rename the guiclient to restclient17:35
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th1aThat has screwed me up forever.17:36
th1aSo the use case is Phillip's import problems.17:36
jelknerthla: hi tom!17:36
th1aHe wants to add people to groups from a CSV file, for example.17:36
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th1ajelkner:  hi jeff.17:36
eldafarhey tom17:37
th1ajelkner: I just need to wrap up some things with POV.17:37
th1ahi eldafar17:37
bskahanth1a: I have a few questions about the server move as well17:37
bskahanthey'll only take a minute17:37
th1abskahan:  Yeah we need to firm that up too.17:38
algaI really really got to go now17:38
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bskahanwho controlls the DNS for
th1aOK.  Well, I guess the loose end at this point is precisely which of Phillip's concerns we'll address in this contract.17:38
th1aI can go over those today and create/flag issues for you.17:39
bskahanhow critical is it to maintain plone user accounts on the server?17:39
th1aSo I guess POV is excused.17:39
th1aI'll send a followup email later.17:40
th1abskahan:  That's a real annoyance.17:40
ignasbang the gavel :D17:40
th1abskahan isn't excused.17:40
bskahanth1a: what's a real annoyance?17:40
th1aNot you.17:40
th1aHaving all these mostly meaningless user accounts.17:41
* bskahan thinks someone was a teacher for too long ;)17:41
bskahanwell, currently I can't get the old data.fs to upgrade to plone 2.1, I can probably migrate the content but not the users17:41
th1aI would love to start from scratch with the new server.17:42
bskahanthat's what I was hoping for17:42
th1aWe can't write some kind of script to extract and re-create the accounts?17:43
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jintybskahan: how goes it with getting the .deb repository on the net?17:43
bskahanjinty: what do you need for that to happen?17:44
jintyI need parts of my home directory on the web17:44
bskahanok, vsftp is up, what parts of you home do you want expozed?17:45
bskahanth1a: yes, we can script the migration of user accounts.17:46
th1aIt is just kind of rude to nuke them.17:46
jintyperhaps I create a /home/jinty/web directory?17:46
bskahanjinty: if that's where you'd like to do it17:47
bskahandoes it need to be you're home directory?17:47
th1abskahan:  Have you tried getting PloneSoftwareCenter to work?17:48
bskahanth1a: yes, I've used it17:48
jintyno, but then I need write access to it17:48
th1aI've never figured out how to get it running on my laptop.17:48
th1aRegardless, do you think we should use it?17:48
jintyI also want to make *.pots and live-cd's17:48
bskahanth1a: yes, I think we should use it17:48
th1aGood.  Does PloneHelpCenter actually work, too?17:49
bskahanI think I can tie in the ubuntu style proposal tables with the PSC proposals17:49
bskahanI haven't looked at PHC in a few months, but it was working nicely17:50
th1aWe need to write up a proposal for this, by the way.17:50
* bskahan nods17:50
th1aSo you can, you know, get paid.17:50
bskahanthe big question now is 2.0.5 vs. 2.117:50
th1aI'd say 2.1, unless there's a good reason not to.17:50
bskahanI'd really like to do 2.1 but I have to get past the migration problems17:50
bskahanuser migration17:50
jintybskahan: you could create a /home/ftp/jinty directory owned by me as well I think17:51
th1ajelkner: if you're in a hurry, feel free to jump in.17:51
bskahanjinty: that's probably what it will be17:51
bskahanjinty: do you need seperate roots for the live cds and the deb repository?17:52
th1abskahan:  Overall, I've been convinced that the infrastructure is the way to go.17:52
bskahanth1a: I like it quite a bit17:52
bskahanI think that plus an external forum will be good17:52
* jinty was planning /home/ftp/jinty/{archives,live-cd,translations}17:53
bskahanjinty: cool17:53
th1abskahan:  Can you draft a proposal?17:53
bskahanth1a: do you know who controls the DNS entries?17:53
th1aGood question.17:54
bskahanif you could find out, I need,,, and pointed at the new server17:55
th1aSteveA:  Do you know who controls the DNS entries?17:55
bskahanwe'll do and * later17:55
SteveAi expect it will be gus at TSF17:56
th1aOnce they're actually set up ;-)17:56
th1aI'll prod around down there.17:56
th1ajelkner:  What's up?17:57
bskahanth1a: I have to go17:57
* th1a bangs the gavel17:57
bskahanby everyone ;)17:57
jelknerthla: hi tom, i have a bunch of questions for you when you have a few minutes17:58
jelknerthla: are you leaving now?17:58
SteveAth1a: i'll /msg you the address + phone17:58
th1aSteveA:  Thanks.17:58
th1ajelkner:  I'm here.17:59
th1aGo ahead.17:59
jelknerok, it is crunch time for cando17:59
jelknerwe are trying to setup a simple installation proceedure17:59
jelknerhere is what we have so far:
jelknereldar is adding to it presently18:00
th1ajinty: ayt?18:01
th1aYou might be able to help with this.18:01
th1a.deb packaging/installation issues.18:01
th1aCheck out what they're doing at the link above.18:01
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jintystrange that they can get schooltool to run on port 8018:02
jelknerjinty: we want it on port 8018:02
flintgood morning,  I had a FEW minutes thought I would stop by...18:03
th1aflint:  Hey.18:03
jintyit shouldn't work though18:03
jelknerflint: hi paul, we are working on a cando server setup18:03
flintThe wife has me lunching...18:03
jelknerjinty: why?18:03
flintHey Jeff Hey Tom!18:03
th1aShouldn't work if Apache is running or at all?18:03
jelknerwe don't have apache18:04
jelknerso there should be no problem18:04
flintApache eats port 80, unless it is in secure mode...18:04
jintyon ubuntu schooltool runs as the user schooltool, IIRC non root users are not allowed to use port 8018:04
jelknerjinty: that is not good18:04
flintgotta go...the wife...thanks...18:04
th1ajinty:  OK.18:04
jelknerfirewalls frequently block port 708018:04
jintyyou can install apache and use rewrite rules, there is a howto in the readme18:05
jelknerso we want a cando server running on port 8018:05
th1aHm.  Apache starts as root and then switches to www-data, right?18:05
jelkneri know how to do that18:05
th1aBut Zope 3 doesn't know how to do that?18:05
jelknerbut it seems unnecessarily complicated18:05
jintyapache starts as root, then changes to www-data after getting the port18:07
jintyschooltool just starts as schooltool18:07
th1aI hadn't thought about that.18:09
th1aWhat a pain in the ass.18:09
jelknerwhat about having schooltool start as root and then switch to schooltool?18:09
th1aI can't remember what it is called when you start as root and switch.18:10
th1aIt has a name.18:10
jintyyou need to hack the init script and the schooltool code and it is not as safe.18:10
jintys/schooltool/schooltool standalone server/18:11
th1aFor the moment I guess we just have to deal with it.18:11
jelknerwell, i guess i'll stick with 7080 until you all figure out how you want to handle this18:11
th1aYou can't use Apache?18:12
jelkneri could, but that has other issues18:12
th1aSuch as?18:12
jelkneryou need to set a document root in zope18:12
jelkneror it won't work18:12
jelknersince zope will be sending our data on port 708018:12
jelknerand your web client will expect it on port 8018:13
jelkneri know how to do this with zope218:13
th1aI don't think you need to do anything with SchoolTool to get it working.18:13
jelknerbut if you get it wrong, you lose access to your instance18:13
th1aNo, it is different in Zope 3.18:13
th1aLess hairy.18:14
jelknerschool starts for me tomorrow18:14
jelknerand i'm under a lot of time pressure18:14
jelknerso i need to choose the path of least resistance for now18:14
th1aOK, so for the moment 7080.18:14
jintybskahan: I am being pinged for updated schooltool packages, and really don't want tu upload them to plone18:14
jelknerthla: let me ask you another general question18:15
jelknerif arlington schools wanted to pay for a bit of cando support, could they do it?18:15
th1aGood, since I seem to learn useful things when you ask me questions ;-)18:15
th1aI imagine they could.18:16
jelknerpaul and eldar did a super job, but paul just started college and eldar goes back to high school tomorrow18:16
jelkneri'm getting the feeling that their availability may not be consistent over the next few weeks/months18:16
th1aProbably bskahan or tvon would be the best choice.18:16
jelknerand this is the absolute critical time for cando18:16
jelkneri was hoping paul would have submitted the cando source for code review by now, but it hasn't happened yet18:17
th1atsk tsk.18:17
jelknerand i haven't heard much from paul since he want off to college18:17
jelkneri'm getting together with dave welsh to setup the career center cando server this afternoon18:18
jelknerthat's why eldar and i were working on a proceedure18:18
jelknerwhen i meet with dave, we will be discussing the support question.18:19
th1aI can't really directly set anything up for you.18:19
eldafarwhen you /etc/init.d/schooltool start, does it report any errors in configuration files?18:19
eldafarcuz it just seems to be stuck ...18:19
eldafarafter I changed a little18:19
jintyeldafar: you changed the init script? how?18:21
eldafarnot the init script, the configure.zcml and the app.py18:21
* jinty is not sure18:22
eldafarbtw .... schooltool works on port 80 -_-"18:23
th1aRunning as whom?18:23
eldafarroot O_o18:23
th1aWell, that's rather unsafe.18:23
eldafarjeff: ayt? paul's online18:24
jelknereldafar: where, i just emailed the two of you18:24
eldafarjeff: on aim18:24
jelknercan he join us here?18:25
eldafari don't know, let me ask him18:26
eldafarhe has *little* time, like 10 minutes18:30
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jelknerhi paul18:30
jelknerwe are trying to figure out the best way to install cando now18:31
pcardunehi jeff18:31
jelknereldar and i are working on a wiki page with instructions18:31
jelkneri want to install on top of the ubuntu breezy schooltool18:31
jelknerto keep things standard and simple18:31
jelknerthe goal for breezy+1 is "apt-get install cando"18:32
jelknerbut for now we can just install on top of the schooltool package18:32
pcarduneseems like a good idea18:34
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jelknereldar: since we need to keep this simple, let's stick with port 708018:37
jelknerfor now18:37
jelknereldafar: the problem will be when you need to fix things18:38
jintyjelkner: is the only thing you need is to install the cando module? or do you need to modify schooltool code as well?18:38
jelknereldafar: can you help with this question?18:38
jelknermy understanding is that only a few lines of schooltool get changed, but a few do.18:38
eldafarjust install the module18:39
jintywhich file?18:39
jintyah, ok18:39
eldafarbut it involves making a container in, and adding cando to navigation18:39
eldafarand configure.zcml18:40
eldafarthere is a big problem with integrating from fork to this18:40
eldafarthere are a lot of imports from schoolbell in cando18:41
eldafarand apparently there is no schoolbell18:41
jintyyou mean in /usr/lib/libschooltool/?18:42
jintyit's in /usr/lib/ibschoolbell18:43
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eldafarahhh ok18:44
jintyyou just need to add it to the python path in your startup script, look at /usr/bin/schooltool18:45
jintyare you guys going to be releasing a tarball any time soon?18:46
jelknereldafar: that's the big question!18:47
jelknerit was supposed to have happened already, but then life got in the way...18:47
jelknereldafar: so, eldar, when you would you estimate it will happen?18:48
eldafaryup, we just need to find out when's "soon" going to be18:48
eldafarnext two weeks the latest18:48
jintylet me know18:48
jelknereldafar: does it look like you'll be able to get cando on the breezy schooltool?18:49
jelknerby like, 2 pm today?18:49
jelknernot to put any pressure on you, or anything ;-)18:50
eldafari am not sure, it's not working but I'm not getting any errors explaining me why it's not working18:50
jelknereldafar: i need to take care of some 1st day school stuff. i'll check back with you at 2 pm18:51
jelknerif it is working by then, i'll setup the career center server18:52
jelknerif not, we will put it off a few days18:52
jelknertalk to you at 2...18:52
jelknerthla: tom is there a phone number i can use to give you a call?18:53
jelknerthla: you here, tom?18:54
th1aYes, I'm here.18:55
jelkneris there a number at which i could give you a call?18:56
eldafarI have some code questions ... is there anyone here to answer them?19:00
eldafarin schooltool/ I import
eldafarthen I make a container in schooltool's constructor19:03
eldafarself['candotoo'] = CanDoTooContainer()19:04
eldafari editted the configure.zcml and include candotoo19:04
eldafarnow when I start the server, and go to /candotoo19:04
eldafarit acts as if didn't exist, and it doesn't give me an error when I'm starting the server19:04
bskahaneldafar: did you remove the Data.fs?19:05
eldafarO_o, let me try19:05
eldafaryay! it works!19:07
eldafarme thinks19:07
eldafarthank you very much19:07
bskahaneldafar: no problem19:09
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jintybskahan: poke -> /home/ftp/jinty20:03
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bskahanjinty: /home/ftp/pub/schooltool22:54
bskahanyou can create whatever directories you need there22:55
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