IRC log of #schooltool for Wednesday, 2005-07-20

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tvonsvn externals are annoying12:57
povbot/svn/commits: * tvon committed revision 4225:13:01
povbot/svn/commits: Fix date parsing and setting.13:01
mgedmintvon, svn 1.2.0 can ignore them, if you say --ignore-externals13:02
mgedminsince yesterday I've a shell script wrapper for svn that adds this flag for svn up and svn st13:02
tvonmgedmin: actually I keep trying to commit to the sb external in st..13:02
mgedminah ;)13:03
tvonI thought I was all clever because I copied schoolbell-server and to the schooltool dir so I could run either one (after wiping data.fs granted)13:04
tvonalas, I'm not so slick13:04
mgedminyou can play with symlinks and have src/schoolbell point to a writeable checkout13:05
tvonI think svn update will choke if the external is not what it's expecting13:05
mgedminsvn up doesn't replace symlinks or descend into symlinked trees (unless the svn:externals property changes on the server)13:06
mgedminit complains a little bit, but works nevertheless13:06
tvonwell thats good enough for me13:06
mgedminalga uses this scheme, and I used to13:06
mgedminbut then I decided this was cheating and stopped ;)13:06
mgedminsomebody among the developers ought to test the same environment that regular users get when they check out13:07
mgedminat least until we set up buildbot to run tests automatically after each checkin13:07
tvonspeaking of buildbots, whats up with ftests?13:08
mgedminthey all passed on my laptop five minutes ago13:10
tvonlooks like everything dies when it tries to add ST to a z313:10
tvonmgedmin: Do you have any time to help me track down an unauthorized exception with the school-wide calendar at some point?13:13
mgedminI guess it depends on how hard it is ;)13:14
mgedmindoes the schoolwide calendar have a proper __parent__?13:15
* mgedmin notes that all ftests pass here -- both schooltool's and schoolbell's13:15
tvonthe patch for the calendar is here:
tvonwait, thats not right13:16
tvonand no, parent is not set properly anywhere13:18
tvonactually I think Calendar() sets it13:18
mgedminit can't13:20
mgedminyou're not passing anything to it13:20
tvonit takes self13:20
tvonor an obj13:20
tvonin SchoolToolApplication.__init__ I have calendar=Calendar(self)13:20
mgedminthat's not what I see in your patch on paste.plone.org13:21
mgedminI see self.calendar = Calendar()13:21
tvonoh son of a bitch13:21
tvonyou are a genius13:21
tvonin schoolbell I pass 'self', and it amazingly works in schoolbell13:21
* tvon sighs13:21
mgedminbtw you misspelt SchoolTool as ScholTool13:22
mgedmin+class ScholToolApplicationTraverser(sbcal.CalendarOwnerTraverser):13:22
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4226:14:23
povbot/svn/commits: Another timetable wizard step: names of days.14:23
povbot/svn/commits: * alga committed revision 4227:14:37
povbot/svn/commits: Moved ttwizard to the schooltool.timetable.browser package.14:37
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povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4228:15:33
povbot/svn/commits: Another wizard step: entering start and times for classes.  It is functional, but needs more polish.15:33
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4229:15:39
povbot/svn/commits: TimetableSchemaWizard is not a Step.15:39
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4230:15:40
povbot/svn/commits: Spanish Inquisition.15:40
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4231:15:44
povbot/svn/commits: Shuffled code around.15:44
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4232:15:56
povbot/svn/commits: Refactored things common to all form-based steps into a new base class.  Wrote unit tests for it.15:56
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4233:15:59
povbot/svn/commits: Rewrote test for getSessionData to indicate that it is reused in two classes.15:59
povbot/svn/commits: Moved doctest_ChoiceStep so that the order of tests matches the order of classes.15:59
eldarfor the upcoming version?16:13
eldaror for the whole thing?16:13
eldarbecause the idea of having all the competencies(skills) in a separate container and just poing to them is very appealing16:13
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pcarduneeldar, hello16:14
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eldarthe idea of having all the competencies(skills) in a separate container and just poing to them is very appealing16:14
eldarpoing = pointing *16:15
eldarthat way the Score class only has to store the ID's of skills16:15
eldarso we are sticking to the old way for now?16:16
pcarduneexcept this time we will put in precautionary locks16:16
pcarduneto tell the administrator, "if you change this value, you change *a lot* of peoples competencies"16:17
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4234:16:21
povbot/svn/commits: Cosmetic ftest update.16:21
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4235:16:23
povbot/svn/commits: Fixed impedance mismatch between SimpleSlotEntryStep.update and FinalStep.createSchema.16:23
povbot/svn/commits: Obviously it is time to write a functional test, even though the wizard is not yet complete.16:23
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erchachemy system is ok now16:58
th1aDid you get Apache configured?17:04
erchacheim installing windows xp on my mac via virtual pc now17:09
erchacheand on my wiki i suffer a DoS attack17:10
erchacheand all morning are hitting my head to a wall to solve it....17:10
th1aDo you have enemies, erchache?17:10
erchachea teacher asking me to update his moodle system on a windows machine17:10
erchacheall wikipedia admins!17:10
erchachewe install our own system17:10
erchacheand makes a fork of es.wikipedia17:10
erchachewe have more hits and users than them17:11
erchacheat first time....all users of wikipedia leave it and goes to our system17:11
erchachethis is the beggining of the war17:11
th1aThat is a strange story.  What's the URL of your fork?17:12
erchachewe get all our thing from and translate it to
erchachelike a child when leaves home!17:12
erchacheand mediawiki software is a honeypot to get all bad boys of internet17:13
erchacheuna maldicion gitana17:13
pcarduneso, why is your version better than theirs?17:15
erchachewe have less articles but we have the best articles you know17:15
erchacheand we working on both systems17:15
erchachethey are angry with us....not us17:16
th1aerchache:  Are you in Barcelona?17:17
erchachein sevilla17:18
erchachein south17:19
erchachedo you know sevilla?17:19
th1aNo.  I've only been to Castell├│n.17:19
erchacheahh...for university interchange program?17:19
th1aFor a conference a few months ago.17:20
erchachebut castellon...well is beaty but....17:20
erchachebarcelona is better17:20
erchacheand sevilla too17:20
erchachebut now is a bad time to come here17:21
erchache43┬║ C17:21
erchacheat the shadow17:21
erchacheif you put on sunplace17:21
erchacheyour brain become liquid17:21
th1aWell, I guess I'll stop packing, then.17:21
th1aSevilla = Seville, right?17:22
erchachethe best time is holy week17:22
th1aI'm writing a blog entry about your Wikipedia fork.17:22
erchachei see your blog17:22
erchachei dont have blog17:23
erchachei hate to write it....too tedious17:23
erchachewell win xp finished install17:23
erchacheprograms like vmware and virtuall pc are very very good17:24
erchache2 systems on one17:24
erchachemac os x, dports and win xp with virtual pc17:24
erchache3 systems on one17:24
th1aVirtual PC is a constant disappointment.17:25
th1aI was hoping it would be easy to run lots of different distros on it, but many don't install correctly.17:26
erchacheuhmm i only need win exploter17:26
th1aThat'll work.17:27
th1aKind of expensive edition of Explorer, though :-)17:27
erchacheits enoguh for me17:27
erchachemorralla xp17:27
erchacheon spanish :P17:27
pcarduneI've got a schooltool user interface question17:31
povbot/svn/commits: * alga committed revision 4236:17:31
povbot/svn/commits: Refactored the timetable models, added a new timetable model (sequential, day templates indexed by day id).17:31
erchachei left i need to close some applications17:32
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pcardunewhat if i want one of my objects to be a folder... just a regular zope folder, where a person can add page templates, and all sorts of other stuff... how do i make that folder have the regular zope interface and not the schooltool one17:32
pcarduneth1a, or maybe you have some implementation ideas for what i'm thinking of17:35
th1aSo  you want admins to be able to customize the look?  Is that what you're driving at?17:36
pcarduneno, i want users to have their own websites so to speak, where they can keep a "portfolio" of the stuff they are working on17:36
th1aThat's a big kettle of fish.17:37
pcardunewe did it with Zope2... just put in a folder object with an acl_users, make them the user and they have their own fully functional zope site17:37
th1aI don't think that should be "in" SchoolTool.17:37
th1aOr, not at this point.17:38
pcarduneyeah, i'm thinking in the future... (as in not this week but this summer)17:38
th1aOh, ok.17:38
pcarduneor maybe it would be suitable enough to have wikis17:38
povbot/svn/commits: * alga committed revision 4237:17:39
povbot/svn/commits: Removed a duplicate file that appeared after yesterday's great moving.17:39
pcardunelike, class websites17:39
th1aWell, we're going to be discussing how this kind of thing would work once we get the next release out.  By "this kind of thing" I mean more precisely how SchoolTool interacts with the rest of Zope 3.17:39
pcardunei see17:40
pcarduneyou see, elkner already has something to that effect and we just want to make it a standard practice among teachers of tech classes17:41
pcardune(i'm speaking for arlington county policy makers here)17:41
th1apcardune:  I think the main issue is defining how one cleanly integrates new functionality into the SchoolTool UI, right?17:41
th1aYeah, that's a major goal for August/September.17:42
pcardunealso, for cleanly extending what you already have17:43
pcardunefor example, you don't have user specific views17:43
pcardunein our old system, if a student logs in, he gets a different set of actions than if a teacher logs in17:43
pcardunesince schooltool doesn't predefine even the concept of teacher and student, and makes no distinction between any users at all (with the interface) there is nothing like that17:44
algapermissions might help17:44
algaa user only sees the menu items he can access17:45
eldaroh btw, can the users still edit each other profiles?17:45
algathey shouldn't unless you grant them the permission to17:46
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povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4238:18:07
povbot/svn/commits: Added a sketch SlotEntryStep, a view for adding slot times for each day.  Added IndependentDaysStep, used to get to the new view.18:07
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jelknerpcardune: hi paul18:16
jelknereldar was just telling me about the problem with user folders, so i wanted to ask you about that.18:17
jelknerzope3 does not currently support user folders?18:17
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4239:18:20
povbot/svn/commits: Fixed some brain damage of my own.  Changed the function getSessionData() to take a request as an argument, not a view.18:20
pcardunejelkner, it does, it's just that they can't live inside schooltool or candotoo for that matter18:23
algajelkner: schooltool provides and authentication utility18:24
jelknerok, paul, i just read the log18:24
algaso it is a kind of user folder of its own18:24
jelknerso tom is saying august/september to talk about making that work smootly?18:24
pcardunejelkner, yeah, we would have to make it as a "sybling" to the schooltool object18:24
pcardunejelkner, right, we can do it, it just wont be pretty18:25
jelknerdoing this is not on the top of our customer's list of stories18:25
pcardunejelkner, ok, sounds good18:26
jelknerbut it will be needed by september some time18:26
jelknerdave and i both use it18:26
jelknernaturally, we won't have any student portfolios until we have students18:26
pcardunejelkner, we can make a manual way to link to folders outside, and we can make a little python script for doing that18:27
jelknerbut as you know, the ability to integrate competency tracking with delivery of curriculum and student portfolios is what makes CanDo a killer app18:27
jelknerthat's what got the folks in Virginia CTE to drop what they were doing and back us.18:28
jelknerlet's focus on the low hanging fruit for now18:29
pcardunejelkner, yeah, what we can do is make a very basic form of that, where each evaluation has a text field which students/teachers can put stuff in, it could even be html code... just no images/wikis/websites18:29
pcarduneit actually is a pretty good idea to put all that stuff in folders that live in the same directory that the schooltool object lives in18:32
pcarduneand it wouldn't be any harder to implement either18:32
pcardunewe would just have to change it later when schooltool changes to have some better system for doing stuff like that18:32
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4240:18:33
povbot/svn/commits: Incorporated Marius' suggestions.18:33
jelknerand that's not a problem either, cause we are using an agile development approach that makes embracing change easier, yes? ;-)18:33
jelknerso i'm all in favor of doing the simplest thing that works18:33
jelkneranyway, i gotta get back to setting up zope and moodle to both run on port 80 on the same server18:34
jelkneri'll leave you to your work18:34
jelkneryou have your own server now...18:34
jelknerlet's get the demo up asap so we are ready for dave tomorrow18:35
pcardunethat is what i'm working on right now18:35
jelknerok, great, talk to you later...18:35
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povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4241:18:42
povbot/svn/commits: Added an overview section to the timetable schema ftest.18:42
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mgedminfor a moment there I thought you two switched nicks18:48
mgedminand I couldn't understand how jelkner could to that since he left and didn't join again18:48
bskahantom's been impersonating jeff again?18:51
th1aThis is the first time I've gotten caught.18:52
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4242:18:53
povbot/svn/commits: CycleStep.update now fills session['day_names'] with weekday names if the weekly cycle is selected.18:53
th1aAlthough usually I stick to impersonating jeff on #pedophilia18:53
mgedmindoes jeff know?19:03
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4243:19:29
povbot/svn/commits: Bugfix: there is no METAL slot named "h1" in the template.19:29
pcardunehttp://  <---- finally a server for our cando project19:45
eldarerr paul, we could run it on port 80 you know19:45
eldarso it's prettier :P19:45
pcarduneyeah... i was just thinking that19:46
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4244:19:46
povbot/svn/commits: Preliminary advanced slot time entry step (used when we have different times for different days).19:46
povbot/svn/commits: Not integrated in the timetable creator yet, needs some polishing.19:46
povbot/svn/commits: * alga committed revision 4245:20:02
povbot/svn/commits: Hacked in the Sequential Day Id based model support into the timetable schema RESTive view.20:02
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povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4246:20:19
povbot/svn/commits: Added a straightforward ftest for the new timetable wizard.20:19
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povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4247:20:31
povbot/svn/commits: Added a second walk through the wizard -- this time with a rotating schedule.20:31
povbot/svn/commits: Added verification of the schemas created via RESTive API.20:31
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povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4248:20:40
povbot/svn/commits: Changed FinalStep.createSchema to assume periods are designated by time.20:40
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4249:20:53
povbot/svn/commits: Updated widget macros so that labels can be optional.20:53
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4250:20:56
povbot/svn/commits: Made the forms nicer by adding descriptions above and removing awkwardly wrapped labels on the left.20:56
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pcarduneeldar, ayt?21:03
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4251:21:07
povbot/svn/commits: Nice error handling in the day name entry step.21:07
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povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4252:21:23
povbot/svn/commits: Nice error handling in the slot time entry step.21:23
srichterth1a|school: are you there?21:25
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4253:21:36
povbot/svn/commits: Added error and description fields to SlotEntryStep.  Didn't touch the update method and those TODOs about showing error messages, as I didn't want to step on Gintas's toes.21:36
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povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 4254:21:57
povbot/svn/commits: Added functional test for the Cancel button in the wizard.21:57
srichteris it really necessary that we get the checkin messages in this channel? I am subscribed to the checkin mailing list and see them there21:59
srichteror can I tell povbot to not send them to me?21:59
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mgedminyou can ignore povbot22:00
th1aI'm back.22:00
mgedminit doesn't say anything else22:00
srichteris there an IRC setting to ignore it?22:00
mgedminuhh, that's beyond my knowledge of irc22:00
th1aI'll check.22:00
mgedminxchat has an /ignore command22:01
srichterth1a: I called the package for the promotion workflow, "promotion". Is that okay in terms of terminology?22:01
mgedminand there's a popup menu item22:01
srichterKonversation too :-)22:01
th1aYeah, I think ignore is the command.22:02
th1asrichter:  Promotion is the best I've come up with.22:02
th1aActually, here's an interesting paper on elearning workflows and web services:
th1aIt is worth a scan.22:04
srichterok, I'll scan it22:05
th1aMostly it reassured me that I'm not the only one thinking trying to construct things in this way.22:07
srichternow that I am working on it, the issue is quiet deep22:09
th1aI'm also working on my contacts with the more mainstream eLearning and eFolio people in Europe, and what we're doing should be interesting to them.22:09
th1aEspecially since we're just diving into it rather than spending all our time theorizing.22:09
srichterthe strange thing is that a grade is still more of a workflow data object than an activity22:11
srichterof course, any noun can be converted to a verb: grade -> complete grade22:11
srichterbut I now believe I understood the issue incorrectly22:11
srichterthe verb is something else22:12
srichterand the workflow right now has really only one activity "Complete some grade"22:12
srichterand grades are just workflow data22:13
th1aI used to have philosophical conversations like that with teachers.22:13
th1aThey thought I was nuts.22:13
srichter(Note that this is not theoretical or philosophical at all; it is about fitting our problem correctly in the WfMC approach to workflow22:14
srichterif we get this right, we might not need persistent process definitions22:14
th1a"Is the description of a standard the standard itself, or is there some abstract ideal standard that has multiple descriptions?"22:14
th1aWell, that would simplify things.22:15
srichteryes :-)22:15
srichter(I work best under time pressure as you can see)22:15
th1aI was warned about that.22:15
srichterI so lazy that my brain automatically starts looking for the simplest way :-)22:15
th1aBut I'm afraid I'm the same way.22:15
srichtersI/I am22:15
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srichteryes, now I think we are onto something22:16
srichterso the process is very simple22:16
srichterIt has one activity: Complete a class22:16
srichterand when passing a class you simply arrive at the same activity, but with a different grade as part of the workflow data22:17
srichterwhen you fail, the grade is not changed22:17
srichterthe workflow is done when no more grades are to be completed22:18
srichterI think this sounds much better and this saves us from the persistent workflow22:18
th1aBut you might need to complete multiple classes to move to the next grade.22:18
srichterwe have not modelled this part yet22:19
srichterbut it will be the same22:19
th1aI thought what we planned just covered moving a student more or less manually through the school, from grade to grade.22:19
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th1aIt seems to me that you should work down from that end.22:20
srichterwe are not involving the idea of classes yet22:20
srichterthat's exactely what I am doing22:20
th1aOK.  I misunderstood, then.22:20
srichterwe are just moving students through grades22:20
th1aOK.  Remember they can be withdrawn as well.22:20
srichterth1a: oh, I see; I mistyped above; I meant: Complete a Grade22:21
srichterwithdrawn is just an outcome of an activity22:21
th1aI try to avoid using class to refer to anything but a software object.22:21
srichtermaybe the workflow will be22:21
srichterComplete - (split) -> [Pass, Fail, Withdraw]22:22
srichteryes, that's right22:22
srichterthen it is almost like a publishing workflow22:22
th1aIt isn't too complicated.22:23
th1aWill there just be a sequence of levels stored separately?22:23
srichterComplete (Create Article); Fail (Reject); Pass (Publish); Withdraw (Withdraw)22:23
srichterth1a: right, but the important part is that Levels/Grades are stored as part of the application and *not* the workflow22:24
srichter(btw, I like the term "level" better, so I switch to that)22:25
th1aGrade also has too many meanings.22:26
srichterin fact, the completion of every level will be its own little workflow22:27
srichterbut the pass action will move you to the next one, which is the responsibility of the application22:27
th1aThat seems reasonable.22:28
th1aI'm sure we can find other uses for the persistent workflows...22:28
srichteryeah, I think my brain finally makes the transition from state-based to activity-based WFs22:28
srichterth1a: I am not so sure anymore; I'll complete implementing them when we have found one22:29
srichterWhenever something seems to be persistent, it will be part of the application, I think22:30
th1aOK.  We'll work that out later.22:30
srichterth1a: have levels been modeled already?22:32
th1aDid I say I was going to do that?22:33
srichterok, so I have to do this first then22:33
srichterno, I was just wondering22:33
srichterby modeled I mean "implemented"22:33
srichteralga: are you there?22:40
povbot/svn/commits: * alga committed revision 4255:22:56
povbot/svn/commits: Enter period names step.22:56
algasrichter: yep22:58
srichteralga: I have a question between using annotation and relations22:58
srichteralga: in my case I have to keep track of a student's history in a school22:59
srichterwhat of the two scenarios would you use in ST:22:59
srichter(1) Implement a history container that holds sort of all events and then use a relation to link students to specific events22:59
srichter(2) Have a usual annotation on the student that contains the history23:00
algathe first variant would allow to see the list of all students in some group in the past in an easier way...23:01
srichterhow so?23:01
algawhat do you mean by events, by the way?23:01
srichterthis is about history events and not students23:01
srichterexamples of events: Pass Level X, Fail Level Y, Withdraw from School23:02
srichterit is basically the students academic history23:02
algaI think annotations are better23:02
algathese events do not live without students23:02
algagroups, resources, persons are real world entities23:03
srichterright, so for a "level" I will create a container23:03
srichter(I still have to see how you do that in ST)23:03
alganothing fancy -- zope containers23:05
srichterand you simply add them to the SchoolTool site?23:05
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algakind of23:05
algathey are instantiated in the schooltool app __init__23:06
algaand the app itself is a container23:06
srichterah, I see it now in app.py23:06
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algado you have more questions? I'm leaving soon.23:07
srichteralga: no, not today23:07
srichterthough I think the ST app initialization could be done with adapters23:08
srichteror utilities23:08
srichterthis way third party packages could hook into the creation23:08
algawe did not think of plugability much yet23:09
srichterI see; that's ok; I now know where to hook into23:09
algaok, see you round23:09
srichtersee ya23:09
srichterthanks and bye23:10
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th1asrichter:  Keep track of your ideas about extensibility architecture.  That's the next big step after this release.23:10
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srichterth1a: ok23:15
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srichterth1a: do we already have terms?23:26
srichtercan terms be already finished?23:27
th1aThey define periods of time.23:27
srichterdarn, but that's okay23:27
srichteronce the period is over, they are finished23:27
th1aWell, did we literally write into the stories that the end of the term has to trigger a workflow event?23:28
th1aOr whatever the right terminology is.23:28
srichterno, but I just noticed that that makes most sense23:29
th1aUltimately it should be in there.23:29
srichterokay, so here some background23:29
srichterwe have this workflow activity called "Complete Level"23:29
srichterI have have to associate a work item with that activity23:29
srichteri.e. what work has to be done to complete this activity23:30
srichterfor now, the term has to pass (later of course you have to complete all your courses)23:30
srichtermmh, maybe I just make it a simple work item and just allow the manager to say: "Complete Level" is done23:31
th1aMake it manual first.23:32
th1aMaking it automatic seems like a lot of work for no clear payoff in the short run.23:32
th1aIt will be a long time before people want SchoolTool doing that sort of thing all by itself ;-)23:33
srichterprobably yes23:34
* srichter starts to dig zope.wfmc23:38
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